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Weakest on Pet Sounds: Pet Sounds. It's not Sloop John B that doesn't belong, it's this. I dont dislike it, it's still a solid A, A- song but it's more like a traditionally "beach-y" almost Jimmy Buffet esque song, not really befitting the vibe of the rest of the tracks. People are gonna jump down my throat and say of course it is, because it's there, but if you tossed a bunch of Brian's songs from late '65 to summer '66 in a pile to an uninformed person and said "the greatest and arguably first concept album in rock history is among these songs--pick 13" I doubt PS would get chosen very often. Probably you'd have the album we got plus GV or LGIOK in its place.

Weakest on SMiLE: If we're including unfinished and/or speculative fragments, I say the so-called Barnyard suite. The vague collage of Barnyard, IIGS, IWBA/FN(WS). I think there's a reason this song was never finished in particular, despite the pieces all being right there. Like, yeah it kinda works but nobody would ever call it a highlight. If we're talking "on the Dec tracklist and we absolutely know what it is" I say OMP--which is related to the same concept and by Vosse's account originally part of it. Really, this whole pastoral farm life thing on SMiLE is by far its weakest link.

I think the version of Old Master Painter / Sunshine with the long fade is absolutely sublime. But then, I also think the cantina mix that uses that same long fade is the best version of Heroes. So I guess I just really, really love that minute of music.

Agree with you on the Barnyard suite. Couldn't say it better than you: "yea it kinda works but nobody would ever call it a highlight."

I love Pet Sounds the song, but if I had to jettison something from Pet Sounds it would indeed be the one to go. It would have to be that or I'm Waiting for the Day and I really don't want to lose I'm Waiting for the Day!

I dont think it was a disaster per se, but it is unfortunate.

I do hope with AI and more advanced audio tools, an official stereo mix could be made--honestly if that isn't what this upcoming SMiLE re-release is, I'll be disappointed. (I want the stuff from the vaults that wasnt on TSS too--a better take of CIFOTM version 1's chorus, the one you hear on Odeon, more Psychedelic Sounds, any new acetates, other takes, etc) We have fanmixers who were able to do it even pre-AI, plus it's not like "preserving the music as recorded" was a problem with all TSS Disc 1's excessive fly-ins, pitch-shifting and hamfisted edits to make the BWPS sequence "work." If they're willing to mangle the material like that, I don't see why a digitally attained stereo cut should be out of the question.

I agree. The album would have been mixed to mono, so it totally makes sense to present the material that way... that is, if you were making any effort whatsoever to be true to what the album was meant to be in the 60s... Which is not how the Smile Box set was conceived. Not complaining at all, especially since it sounds like it happened the way Brian Wilson wanted it to, and who am I to argue with that! But I am hoping these new AI tools lead to even more dynamic and exciting fan and ultimately official stereo mixes!

Although I recently returned to the mono Pet Sounds for the first time in a long time. It was the version I grew up on, so it's not like I can be objective. But I've mostly listened to the stereo version for years, and I was like, oh yea, there is something special about those mono mixes. And I've never been able to warm to the Today stereo mixes. They just don't sound right to me! And I'm pretty sure it's not a problem with the mixes themselves, but with the fact that they're in stereo at all (Although the original stereo mixes of Kiss Me, Baby and California Girls on the Endless Harmony Soundtrack from the 90s (which I think they replaced when they reissued it a few years later with less dramatic remixes!?) remain among the greatest things my ears have ever experienced!

Audience video of ALL the latest Al & C gig:

https://youtu.be/XbqbG4Czvmc?feature=shared

Thanks for sharing, I watched a few songs and some of the between songs stories. I still think it's just absolutely incredible that this tour is happening the way it is!!!

All good points, BJL. I was just speculating but you're probably right

Last thing I would ever want is to discourage that kind of speculation! Just sharing my reactions where I think they might be interesting or valuable

I’m wondering how much the yearly costs are with the board . I’m dealing with a rather serious medical issue right now but depending on how this goes I might make a few moves to ensure it’s long term survival

Sorry to hear you're going through some tough times, that's awful and I hope things pick up for you soon.

I've spent the last day, the first in like 3 or 4 where I could regularly access the board for more than a few minutes at a time, using the search function to dig up some of the best threads I could find/remember and save them to pdf. I mostly limited myself to SMiLE stuff (a few Paley sessions and other odds n ends got in) because, I had to draw the line somewhere (Im only one person with so many harddrives and spare time) and I thought I'd include these in my ongoing SMiLE public access, digital "book" of sources. In the unfortunate event this place should go down, remember I'll eventually post a link to this project on my blog thecarbonfreeze.com Sorry for the self-ad but I want to put the name out there in case one day this place just never comes back on.

If anyone's annoyed at me bumping so many old threads, my reason was to earmark them for this purpose in order to make a mirror of the front page and all its threads on the Wayback Machine. Unfortunately, either this site is so old and/or malfunctioning or Im doing something wrong, because it kept saving an error page from "comiclist," which apparently is Chuck's parent website. Like, no matter what URL from this site I gave, it'd be some bullshit "this ISP isn't allowed at comiclist.com" error. So this was my plan B.

I really think it's kind of amazing how these message board discussions shape what's eventually published in really profound ways, as people work through different interpretations and present evidence, and because so many key Beach Boys researchers have been active on various boards over the years. So if you lose the boards' archives, you lose the way to figure out how the common sense about Smile that's reflected in published work developed and evolved. I appreciate your efforts at archiving. I always save my own posts (which can take a lot of time to write, as I'm sure is true for many of the people who've poured time into Smile over the years!) But it's not the same out of context.

Off topic, I went down a deep rabbit hole on your blog last night, you have a lot of great essays on there! I also love old art and B-movies, albeit primarily just lesbian vampires on the latter... I haven't seen *any* of the weird Italian movies you write about and added a bunch to my watch list.

Saw Al + the PSB in Concord, NH Sunday night, 9/6.  Overall, great show, particularly the Love You and MIU cuts.  Vocals by Matt and Darian were excellent, while Al struggled with his voice and/or the sound system.

I thought the show got off to a slow start with CA Girls and a couple of the other "classics".  However, things kicked into gear as the show proceeded with the less well known stuff. 

It was far from a sell out crowd, but the fans in attendance were very enthusiastic when songs like Johnny Carson and Ding Dang (and the related stage antics) were performed. 

I plan to see Al + co. again next week at the Big E in Springfield, MA.  The stage there will be less formal/pristine than in Concord and it will be interesting to see if/how it affects the show.     

I completely agree, actually. And why did they inexplicably leave out stereo Surf’s Up on the box set? Makes no sense.

The compilers of the upcoming PS/Smile release should definitely bear this in mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kH6E2jbnJQ

It's kind of surreal to see your intriguing synthesis here juxtaposed with several of the 13+-year old exchanges that previously dominated this subject on the board, Julia. (Readers please note I am not referring to the big thread we had more recently...)

I think you do indeed have a book's worth of material here that would serve as a searching re-examination of SMiLE that covers the myths, the misdirection, and the miraculous compromise that produced BWPS, but leaves room for a convincing reconstruction of what the LP would/could have been like in early 1967 if certain different circumstances had managed to occur.

It's just a question now, I think, of how you decide to order the material you've produced for an actual book (as opposed to the many components that are currently housed across half a dozen threads here.

It seems to me that all of the "SMiLE '67" versions hinge on whether Brian could have crashed through with a version of HV that he could live with (which also seems to be where he was at with GV, only to have his life further complicated by its immense commercial success). Maybe I missed it in tracking down all of the materials you've produced, but do you have a breakdown of how the 5m30s HV you include is put together? I'm just curious if any reprise of HV elements could recur in any of the "Dumb Angel" versions, since some of that was clearly on Brian's mind in January.

"Metatron" deals with the GV issue which almost certainly would have hit the wall once Brian submitted a version to Capitol without it. What about the possibility of opening the record with GV "to get it out of the way" of the two concepts? That would explain two drastically different track orders based on a probable real-life clash over the commercial viability of the LP.

If GV goes first, it might be possible to leave "I Ran" in on the second side as a "reprise," similar to what could be done with HV. I think it fits fabulously between Wonderful and CIFOTM, making Side 2 even better.

If we are talking about end of January as a delivery date, then I wonder if "Dada" would make the cut chronologically (?). I think "The Elements" remain rather daunting, "water" in particular because things are most fragmentary there, but the chant is still an intriguing way to start Side 2 (and I think we have to think about LP sides, as that was what was being worked with in 1967).

BTW I think it's still possible that some short chant/choral piece could open in front of GV on Side 1.

I don't think it hurts the overall thesis of the book if you have 3-5 possible song lineups--after all, the mix/match/rearrange game has been going on for decades...your scenarios just have to track with the timeframe and cover the various directions that post-production wrangling were likely to take. I strongly sense that Brian would have delivered an LP initially w/o GV and that would've prompted a 1-3 week skirmish which might even have involved some of the legal issues that emerged during Anderle's tenure. A finished product at that time could have expedited the resolution of those matters--because of the project going into limbo in March, those matters languished along with the LP and don't seem to have been resolved until July.

Hoping that these ideas aren't disruptive to your overall process of cutting through the received myths and the "third movement" compromise that gave us a fine "official" version in BWPS, but opening up a much better sense of how "SMiLE '67" could have beaten the odds against it. I think you have cut through so much of what has built up over the years as a kind of protective sediment over the bizarre peregrinations that dominated how the project was perceived in the aftermath of its collapse (including all the picking of the bones from its carcass that ensued).

All of that is most impressive and I hope there's a way to get it all into book form. It definitely deserves to become a prominent voice in the ongoing conversation...

This is a great thread topic about a topic that's still very mysterious--what would the "best" version of Heroes be? We have the single, but the song changed SO MUCH almost certainly more than any other in the entire canon. From what little we've heard of that lost May '66 version, it included variations of My Only Sunshine, which seemed like a piece always intended as a theme of the American Gothic trip, juggled between the Barnyard suite and Heroes before going off on its own. (But maybe not, as the Dec tracklist handwritten note put it in parentheses then crossed them out.) Alan Boyd says basically all the '66 work for it is lost, but Anderle says it was chosen as the single in Dec '66 "because it was the closest to completion." So there was a near complete version made without the drawbacks of commercialism (since an album track doesn't have to "sound like a hit" and have a hook) lost to time. That's not even getting into the two-sided version floating around on acetates we've never heard, that Mike and Vosse attest to, from 1967. Or the 12 minute version Leaf claims exists, which I personally doubt.

Rambling. It's what I do. Anyway, I don't think the BR chorus ruined Heroes but I do think it changed it and removed its identity. We can assume May '66 and Fall '66 it would've been part of a pastiche of Americana segments, like IIGS, Barnyard, OMP, etc. Then by Dec on it was distinctly its own track and had to stand alone, as a single. I think, just speculating, Heroes in early '67 still would've foregone traditional song structure conventions like choruses in favor of "disconnected asides" such as IIGS, Barnyard, Cantina and who knows what else bookended by its verses and bridges. (There's SO MANY missing sessions! Yes, mostly vocals, but you don't think Brian couldn't have played new melodies or variations thereof on piano while the boys harmonized?)

I also think at one point the lead vocal would've jumped back and forth between Brian and Mike, with some alternating dichotomous flourishes* and "lots of talking between cuts" (like "You're Under Arrest!" as a spoken word line by the sheriff, and "That One's For You, Punk!" by the outlaw). It's a fascinating concept, though admittedly somewhat muddled. As other posters have pointed out in other threads, who's actually getting arrested in Margarita's cantina and why? Where does the song's narrator, who seems removed from the binary and victim to its endless feud, fit in with all these musical asides? How can you rectify these narratively removed segments about farm life with this very intricate yin-yang structure? I think there WAS a way to rectify these issues if some additional lyrics and conceptual focus, but it feels like Brian opted to go verse-chorus and abandon what makes the song unique in favor of traditional pop structure. The fascinating possibilities the theme allowed for, and which we get tantalizing glimpses of in the outtakes, was sacrificed for a chorus that sounds better in Worms anyway if you ask me.

*Good example: Track 23 of TSS Disc 2, "H&V Part 2 (Revised)" at about 0:50 with the silent film antagonist piano riff "is that villainous enough, Brian?" https://youtu.be/et-LJ7I9m3A?list=PL4jIq7wqF8Qe9-mMfvmSCloXvhSw1l67S

I don't know what the best version of Heroes is, but I'm certain the single we got ain't it. Just about every other version I've heard, official or otherwise, blows it out of the water. Chuck Britz, Michael Vosse and Mike Love felt similarly that the 5-6 minute two-sided cut was better (to the snarky white knight earlier in the thread). By shoehorning Heroes into a pop standard template, Brian took what could've been a great unconventional narrative album track and made it into an underwhelming, lyrically confused single with a slow section which kills the momentum for teens wanting to dance. He should've picked almost anything else as the single--CE, CIFOTM, WC, Look, ANYTHING.