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| July 14, 2025, 09:43:22 PM |
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11
on: Today at 12:33:53 PM
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Started by rasmus skotte - Last post by rasmus skotte
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(BW~epitaph freely after JULIA's SMiLE Jigsaw Puzzle:)
BRiAN WILSON = "DUMB ANGEL"/"Pied Piper"/"SANDALPHON" !?
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12
on: Today at 12:20:07 PM
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Started by ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 - Last post by JK
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Very cool! Those synth patches work really well. I'm sure Brian would be proud. I just knew I was missing something during my absence.  I'd forgotten you get about three and a half seconds of edit time round here!  |
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13
on: Today at 07:41:55 AM
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Started by Julia - Last post by WillJC
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All I would offer hopefully without detailing the enthusiasm is that Keith Badman's book isn't a reliable resource for anything, really. Just about everything from him in the original post can be thrown out. Making it up and getting the real information backwards is kinda that book's whole thing.
On 20/20: Brian oversaw the overdubs on Our Prayer, not a case of the group working without him. Carl produced the mixdown. Cabin Essence was finished with Brian's consent and guidance but not his hands-on participation. It was again Carl specifically who produced the final additions and mixing.
On Psychodelic Sounds: Brian gave his thoughts in 2011 when he called that stuff the biggest load of junk he'd ever heard and kept wanting to skip past it. Really interesting window into his creative process for us, but not something Brian remembered or cared for beyond the hour-and-a-half-ish it took him and his friends to fill a few reels one night in a cloud of smoke.
On fall '67 Surf's Up: Brian briefly thought about putting it on Wild Honey. It was to be heard as it was played, not a demo or sketch for some future idea. The plan probably dissolved five minutes after listening to the playback.
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15
on: Today at 03:15:34 AM
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Started by Wrightfan - Last post by Wrightfan
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At least for tonight he was with Weird Al in Bethel. Geeked out when I heard his name
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16
on: Yesterday at 10:15:22 PM
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Started by Julia - Last post by BJL
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1. Do You Dig Worms (better title than "like," now it's a pun) [You're Welcome/Worms Proper, a version with and without AI vocals, with the "east or west indies" somewhere, like the Hawaiian section or maybe over the fade, maybe the "Whistle In" whistling over the last "Rock Rock, Roll..." part, possibly a bit of Taxi Cabber buried low in the fade, with the "foreboding Hawaiian instrumental part*" gradually getting louder in that part of the song] *This: https://youtu.be/p7-Nd13f0pQ?si=wZrukzEotgabyylm&t=122OMG I'd forgotten all about that weird slide guitar solo! It's so cool! "I know you're a bit put off by how sad some of this music is sounding as opposed to the happy vibe you want to put out, but look! It's sad in reverse, like a film negative, or negative theology, you need the opposite to express what's happy!"
I really love this idea. I think it's a beautiful description of why, for me at least, even the darkest aspects of the Smile music have never felt like they don't belong under that name. |
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17
on: Yesterday at 10:08:16 PM
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Started by Julia - Last post by BJL
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I'm still of the opinion that Brian did have plans for an "orchestral SMilLE," and that this was at least part of what he was alluding to in the Honolulu interviews. And my guess is that the early October 1967 run-through of "Surf's Up" was a prelude to figuring out how he'd start to put that together. Other speculators (including some who frequent that other not-faraway-enough place...) speculate that Brian never quite figured out how to orchestrate the song; this session, with its key change alteration, might have been an experiment to assist him in doing so. In any case it appears that the Wally Heider incident had the effect of subverting any plans he might have had (as well as scuttling his plans for Redwood)--it became clear that a more urgent songwriting/production cycle was mandated by the need for the Beach Boys to quickly counter the bewilderment that had greeted SMILEY.
I agree with you about the plausibility of Brian thinking about returning to the Smile material in fall, 1967, and I think the idea that that piano run through was a way of Brian thinking through how to orchestrate the song is also plausible. I also agree with you that the Beach Boys commercial problems clearly derailed Brian in this moment, although how anyone who heard Smiley Smile could possibly have imagined a different reception is pretty inconceivable to me, so on some level there shouldn't have been a surprise there? Or did the "squares" around the group and at the record label really have so little understanding of where pop music was going that Smiley seemed like a plausible direction for a successful record? But I cannot resist beating my favorite dead horse, and saying that, while I recognize that this kind of speculation is both fun and more or less necessary to making sense of Smile's story, I also really don't think there's much evidence that Brian didn't know how to finish Surf's Up, or, for that matter, The Elements. Did Brian stop work on Surf's Up because he didn't know how to orchestrate the second half? Or because that January session went so badly? But given that he was back in the studio doing intensive work on Heroes and Villains 4 days later, I think it's just as likely that he was just focused on finishing Heroes and Villains first. (Notable, too, that the run of sessions immediately following the last mysterious Surf's Up session was notably productive, leading around Feb 10th to an actually finished A Side that Brian was ready to release, although, alas, he changed his mind soon after. David Leaf summarizes this situation in his most recent book: "...the message from the Beach Boys to Brian seems clear. Work with us. Or don't work at all."
I'd guess that this was a slowly tightening straitjacket for Brian, which he countered with a quirky, all-over-the-map LP (FRIENDS) that bombed commercially. As with "Heroes & Villains" previously, Brian couldn't find the handle on "Can't Wait Too Long," which might have been a terrible deja vu moment for him. (See the notion of "flashpoint" above. This was followed by Carl & Dennis appropriating "Our Prayer" and "Cabinessence" for 20/20, which likely created a sufficient level of desolation in Brian that he had to simply put SMiLE out of his mind at that point. He would have to relive this several times in the next few years, most prominently when Carl & Jack Rieley decided that in order to leapfrog over the commercial abyss that had cruelly followed the release of SUNFLOWER, they had to resurrect "Surf's Up."
With all of that, it's no wonder Brian circled the wagons for so long regarding SMiLE. But doing so created a much more powerful myth that fascinated and motivated many over the following three decades, which resulted in the triumphant emergence of BWPS (in a form that was perhaps more reminiscent of fan-based speculation than the sidetracked original vision for SMiLE) and the incredible range of fan mixes we've encountered. I think Julia's ideas are refreshingly different and I look forward to hearing the "DAS mix" in the near future. (Someone should ask David whether or not he ever broached the subject of SMiLE fan mixes with Brian--I'd be interested to see how Brian felt about all that--flattered, insulted, etc. Did bringing it to a resolution close a door on it all for him, or could he appreciate the zealous fascination that the SMiLE saga had spawned?)
I think this is all well put. I don't think I knew or had remembered that Dennis and Carl had insisted on Cabinessence and Our Prayer going on 20/20 over Brian's objections? Although I guess even if Brian had been enthused by the idea on some level, or some part of him, that wouldn't mean that it might not also have led to deeply conflicted or difficult feelings. I will say that I just really wish they had taken Do You Dig Worms too, because in '68 it would probably have been just as easy to finish as Cabinessence. And now it will never be finished... |
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18
on: Yesterday at 09:47:34 PM
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Started by Julia - Last post by BJL
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Certainly SMiLE foundered for all the reasons mentioned, including the legal and logistical aspects that GF laid out for us. But we have to careful not to conflate the stories we've heard into a scenario that suggests Brian was suffering from "clinical" issues in the April-May 1967 timeframe. He was just buffeted by a series of events that led him inexorably to shelve his production approach for the SMiLE material. A great deal of it was reworked into the more lo-fi variants that form the bulk of Smiley (leaving out "With Me Tonight," "Little Pad," and "Gettin' Hungry").
As has been discussed in the earlier mega-thread, a meeting in late May 1967 must have occurred to determine what was going to happen in order to regain forward momentum (though we have little to no concrete evidence of it). I suspect that the band discussed several key items at that time, including but not limited to: 1) how Brian could bring the rest of the band into the songwriting/production process; 2) what opportunities would accompany a pending new relationship with Capitol; 3) a road map for getting an LP done ASAP; 4) a full-blown plan to create a home studio at Bellagio; and 5) an understanding that Brian would be able to pursue outside productions (along with the rest of the band) and that he would quite likely return to the "orchestral SMiLE" in some way .
Another fantastic and thoughtful post for this increasingly wonderful thread!! I want to just clarify that I don't mean to argue that Brian's mental illness or instability significantly worsened in early 1967 and this is a fundamental reason Smile didn't happen. I don't actually think that. So far as I can tell, the two main flash points happened in the 64-65 era, when Brian first started dealing with various symptoms of mental illness (obviously wrapped up in the immense pressure he was under professionally and personally), and the 68 moment you point to. I think you can begin to see some of those struggles manifesting in Brian's approach to making music in 1967, but I'm not really sure how important a factor it was in Smile's non-appearance. Despite my relative sympathy to Mike Love's position in this era, I do think resistance from the band (and lack of the kind of supportive, independent external voice of reason that Julia bemoaned in her first post), as well as all the bullshit with Capital Records were really key. I agree with you about the themes you outline as central concerns in the moment of Smile's transition to Smiley, but I do wonder about how abrupt this turning point was. (I do recognize that this was a major point of contention in that last thread, so sorry if I'm opening a can of worms). Obviously a meeting or series of meetings must have been held at this moment, but whether things were really fully talked through, or talked around, or left frustratingly unsaid... I dunno. Also, I think it's pretty significant that EITHER Brian was trying to get Carl and Dennis both in the studio practicing production and orchestration OR Carl and Dennis were taking initiative to work on those skills earlier in 1967 seems pretty significant. As, frankly, do the Jasper Daily sessions, as (maybe) a way to keep working without working on Smile? And then, the Rock With Me Henry version of Wonderful from January 9th is at least a big step towards the Smiley aesthetic. I'm not saying that that big meeting didn't happen, just adding that its seeds had been percolating for a long time... |
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20
on: Yesterday at 06:28:58 PM
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Started by Julia - Last post by Julia
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Excellent thread, thanks to all but especially Julia for bringing together so many of the key elements involved in what happened to SMiLE in the crucial first five months of 1967. I'm also glad to see efforts continuing to provide us with alternatives for the version completed by Brian & Van Dyke (with the stalwart assistance of Darian Sahanaja); those speculative reconstructions are part of what keeps SMiLE unique amongst popular music masterpieces.
As I see it, though, there are some loose threads that tend to get swept under the rug when it comes to the events that triggered the SMiLE to Smiley shift, and I think those should be "read into the record" in order to see how SMiLE and Brian's attempt to guide the band into a different working dynamic was ultimately unable to materialize over the year following the decision to leave the "orchestral SMiLE" under wraps and press forward with a fledgling form of creative democracy. I think Julia's notion that Brian abandoned his central role in creating music in the June 1967-June 1968 period is inaccurate based on what we know now about the WILD HONEY and FRIENDS sessions; this doesn't occur until there is a return of the career crisis that those two LPs were supposed to address.
Certainly SMiLE foundered for all the reasons mentioned, including the legal and logistical aspects that GF laid out for us. But we have to careful not to conflate the stories we've heard into a scenario that suggests Brian was suffering from "clinical" issues in the April-May 1967 timeframe. He was just buffeted by a series of events that led him inexorably to shelve his production approach for the SMiLE material. A great deal of it was reworked into the more lo-fi variants that form the bulk of Smiley (leaving out "With Me Tonight," "Little Pad," and "Gettin' Hungry").
As has been discussed in the earlier mega-thread, a meeting in late May 1967 must have occurred to determine what was going to happen in order to regain forward momentum (though we have little to no concrete evidence of it). I suspect that the band discussed several key items at that time, including but not limited to: 1) how Brian could bring the rest of the band into the songwriting/production process; 2) what opportunities would accompany a pending new relationship with Capitol; 3) a road map for getting an LP done ASAP; 4) a full-blown plan to create a home studio at Bellagio; and 5) an understanding that Brian would be able to pursue outside productions (along with the rest of the band) and that he would quite likely return to the "orchestral SMiLE" in some way.
5) remains highly speculative, and it's certainly possible that Brian didn't get as explicit about this shifting arrangement as he needed to be (which would explain why and how the Wally Heider/Redwood incident occurred in October 1967). But GF's discovery of Brian's comments to the Honolulu press in August 1967 clearly points to the idea that he was envisioning a less central role in the band to be a likely outcome in the not-too-distant future. (This all fits in with Julia and BDL's rather poignant commentaries on Brian's tragic fragility, something that would manifest itself in a series of stages beginning with the Wally Heider incident and his subsequent efforts on WILD HONEY and FRIENDS that extended into mid-1968. That summer was the actual flashpoint for Brian's mental health issues, the cumulative effect of an unsuccessful attempt to chart a path back to commercial prominence that left him creatively incapacitated for months and thrust Carl & Dennis into the breach (so to speak).
I'm still of the opinion that Brian did have plans for an "orchestral SMilLE," and that this was at least part of what he was alluding to in the Honolulu interviews. And my guess is that the early October 1967 run-through of "Surf's Up" was a prelude to figuring out how he'd start to put that together. Other speculators (including some who frequent that other not-faraway-enough place...) speculate that Brian never quite figured out how to orchestrate the song; this session, with its key change alteration, might have been an experiment to assist him in doing so. In any case it appears that the Wally Heider incident had the effect of subverting any plans he might have had (as well as scuttling his plans for Redwood)--it became clear that a more urgent songwriting/production cycle was mandated by the need for the Beach Boys to quickly counter the bewilderment that had greeted SMILEY. That's so sad to consider, that even Brian never knew what the orchestration was. Do you have a theory for the missing tape of string players from Surf's Up, or what Talking Horns was all about? For the latter, just a series of experiments that didn't work out? Personally, my image of Brian as this untouchable genius is such that the idea even he couldn't crack a song's code is almost unfathomable. The only track I ever considered this may've happened with is the Elements, and even then I assumed his hangup was "how do I make this work as a 4-part instrumental" not necessarily "how do I make compelling melodies that embody the elements?" David Leaf summarizes this situation in his most recent book: "...the message from the Beach Boys to Brian seems clear. Work with us. Or don't work at all."
I'd guess that this was a slowly tightening straitjacket for Brian, which he countered with a quirky, all-over-the-map LP (FRIENDS) that bombed commercially. As with "Heroes & Villains" previously, Brian couldn't find the handle on "Can't Wait Too Long," which might have been a terrible deja vu moment for him. (See the notion of "flashpoint" above. This was followed by Carl & Dennis appropriating "Our Prayer" and "Cabinessence" for 20/20, which likely created a sufficient level of desolation in Brian that he had to simply put SMiLE out of his mind at that point. He would have to relive this several times in the next few years, most prominently when Carl & Jack Rieley decided that in order to leapfrog over the commercial abyss that had cruelly followed the release of SUNFLOWER, they had to resurrect "Surf's Up." Yeah. I think there is still legitimate reason to criticize the other guys for being unsupportive of Brian, even if the "Mike killed SMiLE" narrative is somewhat overstated. As the appologists have said, the other bandmates had every right and reason to be skeptical of this work and Brian's behavior. I even come around to that line of thinking the more I read about the sessions and Brian's behavior. However, what really ticks me off on his behalf is their sense of ownership over this grown man's creative output, ESPECIALLY when combined with the constant criticism and disappointment with it, going all the way to Adult/Child. If you don't like where the man's muse is taking him, let him work with others that believe in it. If you realize you'd be nothing without him, shut up and bring his vision to life and be grateful for it. But one or the other. You don't get to say "Brian, keep making music! [...] No, not like that!" Or "this new music disgusts me" (which Mike is quoted as saying, and arguably more hurtful than 'don't f with the formula') only to pilfer it when it suits you, out of context and without permission. With all of that, it's no wonder Brian circled the wagons for so long regarding SMiLE. But doing so created a much more powerful myth that fascinated and motivated many over the following three decades, which resulted in the triumphant emergence of BWPS (in a form that was perhaps more reminiscent of fan-based speculation than the sidetracked original vision for SMiLE) and the incredible range of fan mixes we've encountered. I think Julia's ideas are refreshingly different and I look forward to hearing the "DAS mix" in the near future. (Someone should ask David whether or not he ever broached the subject of SMiLE fan mixes with Brian--I'd be interested to see how Brian felt about all that--flattered, insulted, etc. Did bringing it to a resolution close a door on it all for him, or could he appreciate the zealous fascination that the SMiLE saga had spawned?)
Thank you, and I agree! I wish Brian wasn't so closed-off about these things, though I completely understand why he was. I'd give anything to hear his thoughts on fanmixes and the Psychedelic Sounds bootleg. |
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