My Last (?) Crack at the SMiLE Jigsaw

[BJL]

Just a little test...

1966

1967

Seems normal.

I edited the post Still laughing about this in my head, though!

[Zenobi]

Ty for the explanation, and the editing! I was really curious, and the explanation is really interesting. So it was the historian in you doing the autocorrection.

[Don Malcolm]

Excellent thread, thanks to all but especially Julia for bringing together so many of the key elements involved in what happened to SMiLE in the crucial first five months of 1967. I'm also glad to see efforts continuing to provide us with alternatives for the version completed by Brian & Van Dyke (with the stalwart assistance of Darian Sahanaja); those speculative reconstructions are part of what keeps SMiLE unique amongst popular music masterpieces.

As I see it, though, there are some loose threads that tend to get swept under the rug when it comes to the events that triggered the SMiLE to Smiley shift, and I think those should be "read into the record" in order to see how SMiLE and Brian's attempt to guide the band into a different working dynamic was ultimately unable to materialize over the year following the decision to leave the "orchestral SMiLE" under wraps and press forward with a fledgling form of creative democracy. I think Julia's notion that Brian abandoned his central role in creating music in the June 1967-June 1968 period is inaccurate based on what we know now about the WILD HONEY and FRIENDS sessions; this doesn't occur until there is a return of the career crisis that those two LPs were supposed to address.

Certainly SMiLE foundered for all the reasons mentioned, including the legal and logistical aspects that GF laid out for us. But we have to careful not to conflate the stories we've heard into a scenario that suggests Brian was suffering from "clinical" issues in the April-May 1967 timeframe. He was just buffeted by a series of events that led him inexorably to shelve his production approach for the SMiLE material. A great deal of it was reworked into the more lo-fi variants that form the bulk of Smiley (leaving out "With Me Tonight," "Little Pad," and "Gettin' Hungry").

As has been discussed in the earlier mega-thread, a meeting in late May 1967 must have occurred to determine what was going to happen in order to regain forward momentum (though we have little to no concrete evidence of it). I suspect that the band discussed several key items at that time, including but not limited to: 1) how Brian could bring the rest of the band into the songwriting/production process; 2) what opportunities would accompany a pending new relationship with Capitol; 3) a road map for getting an LP done ASAP; 4) a full-blown plan to create a home studio at Bellagio; and 5) an understanding that Brian would be able to pursue outside productions (along with the rest of the band) and that he would quite likely return to the "orchestral SMiLE" in some way .

5) remains highly speculative, and it's certainly possible that Brian didn't get as explicit about this shifting arrangement as he needed to be (which would explain why and how the Wally Heider/Redwood incident occurred in October 1967). But GF's discovery of Brian's comments to the Honolulu press in August 1967 clearly points to the idea that he was envisioning a less central role in the band to be a likely outcome in the not-too-distant future. (This all fits in with Julia and BDL's rather poignant commentaries on Brian's tragic fragility, something that would manifest itself in a series of stages beginning with the Wally Heider incident and his subsequent efforts on WILD HONEY and FRIENDS that extended into mid-1968. That summer was the actual flashpoint for Brian's mental health issues, the cumulative effect of an unsuccessful attempt to chart a path back to commercial prominence that left him creatively incapacitated for months and thrust Carl & Dennis into the breach (so to speak).

I'm still of the opinion that Brian did have plans for an "orchestral SMilLE," and that this was at least part of what he was alluding to in the Honolulu interviews. And my guess is that the early October 1967 run-through of "Surf's Up" was a prelude to figuring out how he'd start to put that together. Other speculators (including some who frequent that other not-faraway-enough place...) speculate that Brian never quite figured out how to orchestrate the song; this session, with its key change alteration, might have been an experiment to assist him in doing so. In any case it appears that the Wally Heider incident had the effect of subverting any plans he might have had (as well as scuttling his plans for Redwood)--it became clear that a more urgent songwriting/production cycle was mandated by the need for the Beach Boys to quickly counter the bewilderment that had greeted SMILEY.

David Leaf summarizes this situation in his most recent book: "...the message from the Beach Boys to Brian seems clear. Work with us. Or don't work at all."
I'd guess that this was a slowly tightening straitjacket for Brian, which he countered with a quirky, all-over-the-map LP (FRIENDS) that bombed commercially. As with "Heroes & Villains" previously, Brian couldn't find the handle on "Can't Wait Too Long," which might have been a terrible deja vu moment for him. (See the notion of "flashpoint" above. This was followed by Carl & Dennis appropriating "Our Prayer" and "Cabinessence" for 20/20, which likely created a sufficient level of desolation in Brian that he had to simply put SMiLE out of his mind at that point. He would have to relive this several times in the next few years, most prominently when Carl & Jack Rieley decided that in order to leapfrog over the commercial abyss that had cruelly followed the release of SUNFLOWER, they had to resurrect "Surf's Up."

With all of that, it's no wonder Brian circled the wagons for so long regarding SMiLE. But doing so created a much more powerful myth that fascinated and motivated many over the following three decades, which resulted in the triumphant emergence of BWPS (in a form that was perhaps more reminiscent of fan-based speculation than the sidetracked original vision for SMiLE) and the incredible range of fan mixes we've encountered. I think Julia's ideas are refreshingly different and I look forward to hearing the "DAS mix" in the near future. (Someone should ask David whether or not he ever broached the subject of SMiLE fan mixes with Brian--I'd be interested to see how Brian felt about all that--flattered, insulted, etc. Did bringing it to a resolution close a door on it all for him, or could he appreciate the zealous fascination that the SMiLE saga had spawned?)

[Julia]

Excellent thread, thanks to all but especially Julia for bringing together so many of the key elements involved in what happened to SMiLE in the crucial first five months of 1967. I'm also glad to see efforts continuing to provide us with alternatives for the version completed by Brian & Van Dyke (with the stalwart assistance of Darian Sahanaja); those speculative reconstructions are part of what keeps SMiLE unique amongst popular music masterpieces.

As I see it, though, there are some loose threads that tend to get swept under the rug when it comes to the events that triggered the SMiLE to Smiley shift, and I think those should be "read into the record" in order to see how SMiLE and Brian's attempt to guide the band into a different working dynamic was ultimately unable to materialize over the year following the decision to leave the "orchestral SMiLE" under wraps and press forward with a fledgling form of creative democracy. I think Julia's notion that Brian abandoned his central role in creating music in the June 1967-June 1968 period is inaccurate based on what we know now about the WILD HONEY and FRIENDS sessions; this doesn't occur until there is a return of the career crisis that those two LPs were supposed to address.

Certainly SMiLE foundered for all the reasons mentioned, including the legal and logistical aspects that GF laid out for us. But we have to careful not to conflate the stories we've heard into a scenario that suggests Brian was suffering from "clinical" issues in the April-May 1967 timeframe. He was just buffeted by a series of events that led him inexorably to shelve his production approach for the SMiLE material. A great deal of it was reworked into the more lo-fi variants that form the bulk of Smiley (leaving out "With Me Tonight," "Little Pad," and "Gettin' Hungry").

As has been discussed in the earlier mega-thread, a meeting in late May 1967 must have occurred to determine what was going to happen in order to regain forward momentum (though we have little to no concrete evidence of it). I suspect that the band discussed several key items at that time, including but not limited to: 1) how Brian could bring the rest of the band into the songwriting/production process; 2) what opportunities would accompany a pending new relationship with Capitol; 3) a road map for getting an LP done ASAP; 4) a full-blown plan to create a home studio at Bellagio; and 5) an understanding that Brian would be able to pursue outside productions (along with the rest of the band) and that he would quite likely return to the "orchestral SMiLE" in some way.

5) remains highly speculative, and it's certainly possible that Brian didn't get as explicit about this shifting arrangement as he needed to be (which would explain why and how the Wally Heider/Redwood incident occurred in October 1967). But GF's discovery of Brian's comments to the Honolulu press in August 1967 clearly points to the idea that he was envisioning a less central role in the band to be a likely outcome in the not-too-distant future. (This all fits in with Julia and BDL's rather poignant commentaries on Brian's tragic fragility, something that would manifest itself in a series of stages beginning with the Wally Heider incident and his subsequent efforts on WILD HONEY and FRIENDS that extended into mid-1968. That summer was the actual flashpoint for Brian's mental health issues, the cumulative effect of an unsuccessful attempt to chart a path back to commercial prominence that left him creatively incapacitated for months and thrust Carl & Dennis into the breach (so to speak).

I'm still of the opinion that Brian did have plans for an "orchestral SMilLE," and that this was at least part of what he was alluding to in the Honolulu interviews. And my guess is that the early October 1967 run-through of "Surf's Up" was a prelude to figuring out how he'd start to put that together. Other speculators (including some who frequent that other not-faraway-enough place...) speculate that Brian never quite figured out how to orchestrate the song; this session, with its key change alteration, might have been an experiment to assist him in doing so. In any case it appears that the Wally Heider incident had the effect of subverting any plans he might have had (as well as scuttling his plans for Redwood)--it became clear that a more urgent songwriting/production cycle was mandated by the need for the Beach Boys to quickly counter the bewilderment that had greeted SMILEY.

That's so sad to consider, that even Brian never knew what the orchestration was. Do you have a theory for the missing tape of string players from Surf's Up, or what Talking Horns was all about? For the latter, just a series of experiments that didn't work out?

Personally, my image of Brian as this untouchable genius is such that the idea even he couldn't crack a song's code is almost unfathomable. The only track I ever considered this may've happened with is the Elements, and even then I assumed his hangup was "how do I make this work as a 4-part instrumental" not necessarily "how do I make compelling melodies that embody the elements?"

David Leaf summarizes this situation in his most recent book: "...the message from the Beach Boys to Brian seems clear. Work with us. Or don't work at all."
I'd guess that this was a slowly tightening straitjacket for Brian, which he countered with a quirky, all-over-the-map LP (FRIENDS) that bombed commercially. As with "Heroes & Villains" previously, Brian couldn't find the handle on "Can't Wait Too Long," which might have been a terrible deja vu moment for him. (See the notion of "flashpoint" above. This was followed by Carl & Dennis appropriating "Our Prayer" and "Cabinessence" for 20/20, which likely created a sufficient level of desolation in Brian that he had to simply put SMiLE out of his mind at that point. He would have to relive this several times in the next few years, most prominently when Carl & Jack Rieley decided that in order to leapfrog over the commercial abyss that had cruelly followed the release of SUNFLOWER, they had to resurrect "Surf's Up."

Yeah. I think there is still legitimate reason to criticize the other guys for being unsupportive of Brian, even if the "Mike killed SMiLE" narrative is somewhat overstated. As the appologists have said, the other bandmates had every right and reason to be skeptical of this work and Brian's behavior. I even come around to that line of thinking the more I read about the sessions and Brian's behavior. However, what really ticks me off on his behalf is their sense of ownership over this grown man's creative output, ESPECIALLY when combined with the constant criticism and disappointment with it, going all the way to Adult/Child. If you don't like where the man's muse is taking him, let him work with others that believe in it. If you realize you'd be nothing without him, shut up and bring his vision to life and be grateful for it. But one or the other. You don't get to say "Brian, keep making music! [...] No, not like that!" Or "this new music disgusts me" (which Mike is quoted as saying, and arguably more hurtful than 'don't f with the formula') only to pilfer it when it suits you, out of context and without permission. 

With all of that, it's no wonder Brian circled the wagons for so long regarding SMiLE. But doing so created a much more powerful myth that fascinated and motivated many over the following three decades, which resulted in the triumphant emergence of BWPS (in a form that was perhaps more reminiscent of fan-based speculation than the sidetracked original vision for SMiLE) and the incredible range of fan mixes we've encountered. I think Julia's ideas are refreshingly different and I look forward to hearing the "DAS mix" in the near future. (Someone should ask David whether or not he ever broached the subject of SMiLE fan mixes with Brian--I'd be interested to see how Brian felt about all that--flattered, insulted, etc. Did bringing it to a resolution close a door on it all for him, or could he appreciate the zealous fascination that the SMiLE saga had spawned?)

Thank you, and I agree! I wish Brian wasn't so closed-off about these things, though I completely understand why he was. I'd give anything to hear his thoughts on fanmixes and the Psychedelic Sounds bootleg.

[BJL]

Certainly SMiLE foundered for all the reasons mentioned, including the legal and logistical aspects that GF laid out for us. But we have to careful not to conflate the stories we've heard into a scenario that suggests Brian was suffering from "clinical" issues in the April-May 1967 timeframe. He was just buffeted by a series of events that led him inexorably to shelve his production approach for the SMiLE material. A great deal of it was reworked into the more lo-fi variants that form the bulk of Smiley (leaving out "With Me Tonight," "Little Pad," and "Gettin' Hungry").

As has been discussed in the earlier mega-thread, a meeting in late May 1967 must have occurred to determine what was going to happen in order to regain forward momentum (though we have little to no concrete evidence of it). I suspect that the band discussed several key items at that time, including but not limited to: 1) how Brian could bring the rest of the band into the songwriting/production process; 2) what opportunities would accompany a pending new relationship with Capitol; 3) a road map for getting an LP done ASAP; 4) a full-blown plan to create a home studio at Bellagio; and 5) an understanding that Brian would be able to pursue outside productions (along with the rest of the band) and that he would quite likely return to the "orchestral SMiLE" in some way .

Another fantastic and thoughtful post for this increasingly wonderful thread!!

I want to just clarify that I don't mean to argue that Brian's mental illness or instability significantly worsened in early 1967 and this is a fundamental reason Smile didn't happen. I don't actually think that. So far as I can tell, the two main flash points happened in the 64-65 era, when Brian first started dealing with various symptoms of mental illness (obviously wrapped up in the immense pressure he was under professionally and personally), and the 68 moment you point to. I think you can begin to see some of those struggles manifesting in Brian's approach to making music in 1967, but I'm not really sure how important a factor it was in Smile's non-appearance. Despite my relative sympathy to Mike Love's position in this era, I do think resistance from the band (and lack of the kind of supportive, independent external voice of reason that Julia bemoaned in her first post), as well as all the bullshit with Capital Records were really key.

I agree with you about the themes you outline as central concerns in the moment of Smile's transition to Smiley, but I do wonder about how abrupt this turning point was. (I do recognize that this was a major point of contention in that last thread, so sorry if I'm opening a can of worms). Obviously a meeting or series of meetings must have been held at this moment, but whether things were really fully talked through, or talked around, or left frustratingly unsaid... I dunno. Also, I think it's pretty significant that EITHER Brian was trying to get Carl and Dennis both in the studio practicing production and orchestration OR Carl and Dennis were taking initiative to work on those skills earlier in 1967 seems pretty significant. As, frankly, do the Jasper Daily sessions, as (maybe) a way to keep working without working on Smile? And then, the Rock With Me Henry version of Wonderful from January 9th is at least a big step towards the Smiley aesthetic. I'm not saying that that big meeting didn't happen, just adding that its seeds had been percolating for a long time...

[BJL]

I'm still of the opinion that Brian did have plans for an "orchestral SMilLE," and that this was at least part of what he was alluding to in the Honolulu interviews. And my guess is that the early October 1967 run-through of "Surf's Up" was a prelude to figuring out how he'd start to put that together. Other speculators (including some who frequent that other not-faraway-enough place...) speculate that Brian never quite figured out how to orchestrate the song; this session, with its key change alteration, might have been an experiment to assist him in doing so. In any case it appears that the Wally Heider incident had the effect of subverting any plans he might have had (as well as scuttling his plans for Redwood)--it became clear that a more urgent songwriting/production cycle was mandated by the need for the Beach Boys to quickly counter the bewilderment that had greeted SMILEY.

I agree with you about the plausibility of Brian thinking about returning to the Smile material in fall, 1967, and I think the idea that that piano run through was a way of Brian thinking through how to orchestrate the song is also plausible. I also agree with you that the Beach Boys commercial problems clearly derailed Brian in this moment, although how anyone who heard Smiley Smile could possibly have imagined a different reception is pretty inconceivable to me, so on some level there shouldn't have been a surprise there? Or did the "squares" around the group and at the record label really have so little understanding of where pop music was going that Smiley seemed like a plausible direction for a successful record?

But I cannot resist beating my favorite dead horse, and saying that, while I recognize that this kind of speculation is both fun and more or less necessary to making sense of Smile's story, I also really don't think there's much evidence that Brian didn't know how to finish Surf's Up, or, for that matter, The Elements. Did Brian stop work on Surf's Up because he didn't know how to orchestrate the second half? Or because that January session went so badly? But given that he was back in the studio doing intensive work on Heroes and Villains 4 days later, I think it's just as likely that he was just focused on finishing Heroes and Villains first. (Notable, too, that the run of sessions immediately following the last mysterious Surf's Up session was notably productive, leading around Feb 10th to an actually finished A Side that Brian was ready to release, although, alas, he changed his mind soon after.

David Leaf summarizes this situation in his most recent book: "...the message from the Beach Boys to Brian seems clear. Work with us. Or don't work at all."
I'd guess that this was a slowly tightening straitjacket for Brian, which he countered with a quirky, all-over-the-map LP (FRIENDS) that bombed commercially. As with "Heroes & Villains" previously, Brian couldn't find the handle on "Can't Wait Too Long," which might have been a terrible deja vu moment for him. (See the notion of "flashpoint" above. This was followed by Carl & Dennis appropriating "Our Prayer" and "Cabinessence" for 20/20, which likely created a sufficient level of desolation in Brian that he had to simply put SMiLE out of his mind at that point. He would have to relive this several times in the next few years, most prominently when Carl & Jack Rieley decided that in order to leapfrog over the commercial abyss that had cruelly followed the release of SUNFLOWER, they had to resurrect "Surf's Up."

With all of that, it's no wonder Brian circled the wagons for so long regarding SMiLE. But doing so created a much more powerful myth that fascinated and motivated many over the following three decades, which resulted in the triumphant emergence of BWPS (in a form that was perhaps more reminiscent of fan-based speculation than the sidetracked original vision for SMiLE) and the incredible range of fan mixes we've encountered. I think Julia's ideas are refreshingly different and I look forward to hearing the "DAS mix" in the near future. (Someone should ask David whether or not he ever broached the subject of SMiLE fan mixes with Brian--I'd be interested to see how Brian felt about all that--flattered, insulted, etc. Did bringing it to a resolution close a door on it all for him, or could he appreciate the zealous fascination that the SMiLE saga had spawned?)

I think this is all well put. I don't think I knew or had remembered that Dennis and Carl had insisted on Cabinessence and Our Prayer going on 20/20 over Brian's objections? Although I guess even if Brian had been enthused by the idea on some level, or some part of him, that wouldn't mean that it might not also have led to deeply conflicted or difficult feelings. I will say that I just really wish they had taken Do You Dig Worms too, because in '68 it would probably have been just as easy to finish as Cabinessence. And now it will never be finished...

[BJL]

1. Do You Dig Worms (better title than "like," now it's a pun) [You're Welcome/Worms Proper, a version with and without AI vocals, with the "east or west indies" somewhere, like the Hawaiian section or maybe over the fade, maybe the "Whistle In" whistling over the last "Rock Rock, Roll..." part, possibly a bit of Taxi Cabber buried low in the fade, with the "foreboding Hawaiian instrumental part*" gradually getting louder in that part of the song]
*This: https://youtu.be/p7-Nd13f0pQ?si=wZrukzEotgabyylm&t=122

OMG I'd forgotten all about that weird slide guitar solo! It's so cool!

"I know you're a bit put off by how sad some of this music is sounding as opposed to the happy vibe you want to put out, but look! It's sad in reverse, like a film negative, or negative theology, you need the opposite to express what's happy!"

I really love this idea. I think it's a beautiful description of why, for me at least, even the darkest aspects of the Smile music have never felt like they don't belong under that name.

[WillJC]

All I would offer hopefully without detailing the enthusiasm is that Keith Badman's book isn't a reliable resource for anything, really. Just about everything from him in the original post can be thrown out. Making it up and getting the real information backwards is kinda that book's whole thing.

On 20/20: Brian oversaw the overdubs on Our Prayer, not a case of the group working without him. Carl produced the mixdown. Cabin Essence was finished with Brian's consent and guidance but not his hands-on participation. It was again Carl specifically who produced the final additions and mixing.

On Psychodelic Sounds: Brian gave his thoughts in 2011 when he called that stuff the biggest load of junk he'd ever heard and kept wanting to skip past it. Really interesting window into his creative process for us, but not something Brian remembered or cared for beyond the hour-and-a-half-ish it took him and his friends to fill a few reels one night in a cloud of smoke.

On fall '67 Surf's Up: Brian briefly thought about putting it on Wild Honey. It was to be heard as it was played, not a demo or sketch for some future idea. The plan probably dissolved five minutes after listening to the playback.

[BJL]

All I would offer hopefully without detailing the enthusiasm is that Keith Badman's book isn't a reliable resource for anything, really. Just about everything from him in the original post can be thrown out. Making it up and getting the real information backwards is kinda that book's whole thing.

I knew there were mistakes but didn't know it was that bad?! What a shame, really. I do think much of what Julia deduced from Badman in the first post is also supported by Bellagio and various primary sources! With some exceptions I'm afraid...

On 20/20: Brian oversaw the overdubs on Our Prayer, not a case of the group working without him. Carl produced the mixdown. Cabin Essence was finished with Brian's consent and guidance but not his hands-on participation. It was again Carl specifically who produced the final additions and mixing.

That is more what I thought... I do wonder to what extent this felt like a moment when Smile was being given up on, somehow... or if it was just an opportunity to get some cool music out into the world... It would be great to know how Brian felt about it. Almost certainly unknowable, I imagine.

On fall '67 Surf's Up: Brian briefly thought about putting it on Wild Honey. It was to be heard as it was played, not a demo or sketch for some future idea. The plan probably dissolved five minutes after listening to the playback.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know this? (I am not challenging you!) Is it something Brian or someone else remembered when the tape was found? Or is there some kind of evidence about it being intended for Wild Honey in the surviving documentation accompanying the tape?

I wonder what the world would have made of that version of Surf's Up on Wild Honey. It would have fit, in a weird way, I think. But then, in another way obviously not at all. I do think it's really interesting that Brian twice seems to have considered that Surf's Up was best treated as a solo piano piece. I personally think the arrangement he did for the first movement is one of his most beautiful, so it's always seemed a shame to me that he never worked up an equivalent arrangement for the rest. And clearly, he intended a kind of choral finale... But there is a way in which the song really unfurls its secrets so effectively in the piano-vocal mode. I guess there's nothing original in that thought... But what a gift that 1967 version is, in any case!

[WillJC]

All I would offer hopefully without detailing the enthusiasm is that Keith Badman's book isn't a reliable resource for anything, really. Just about everything from him in the original post can be thrown out. Making it up and getting the real information backwards is kinda that book's whole thing.

I knew there were mistakes but didn't know it was that bad?! What a shame, really. I do think much of what Julia deduced from Badman in the first post is also supported by Bellagio and various primary sources! With some exceptions I'm afraid...

On 20/20: Brian oversaw the overdubs on Our Prayer, not a case of the group working without him. Carl produced the mixdown. Cabin Essence was finished with Brian's consent and guidance but not his hands-on participation. It was again Carl specifically who produced the final additions and mixing.

That is more what I thought... I do wonder to what extent this felt like a moment when Smile was being given up on, somehow... or if it was just an opportunity to get some cool music out into the world... It would be great to know how Brian felt about it. Almost certainly unknowable, I imagine.

On fall '67 Surf's Up: Brian briefly thought about putting it on Wild Honey. It was to be heard as it was played, not a demo or sketch for some future idea. The plan probably dissolved five minutes after listening to the playback.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know this? (I am not challenging you!) Is it something Brian or someone else remembered when the tape was found? Or is there some kind of evidence about it being intended for Wild Honey in the surviving documentation accompanying the tape?

I wonder what the world would have made of that version of Surf's Up on Wild Honey. It would have fit, in a weird way, I think. But then, in another way obviously not at all. I do think it's really interesting that Brian twice seems to have considered that Surf's Up was best treated as a solo piano piece. I personally think the arrangement he did for the first movement is one of his most beautiful, so it's always seemed a shame to me that he never worked up an equivalent arrangement for the rest. And clearly, he intended a kind of choral finale... But there is a way in which the song really unfurls its secrets so effectively in the piano-vocal mode. I guess there's nothing original in that thought... But what a gift that 1967 version is, in any case!

I tried a ctrl+F "Badman" and it was basically: made up from the ether, conjecture, badly out of context, made up, out of context again, whackily misinterpreted, made up, conjecture, etc. Not the fault of anyone reading it, obviously. You just usually can't go a couple of paragraphs in that book without something being wrong.

"Is it something Brian or someone else remembered when the tape was found?"

Exactly that, Brian was in good form and talkative when hearing it again for the first time. He actually did remember the recording, and when asked if he was planning to put it on Wild Honey, he answered that yeah, he was thinking about it. It took about ten minutes to do, he didn't splice any of the takes together, and then it was straight onto cutting the basic track for Country Air with Carl.

[Julia]

All I would offer hopefully without detailing the enthusiasm is that Keith Badman's book isn't a reliable resource for anything, really. Just about everything from him in the original post can be thrown out. Making it up and getting the real information backwards is kinda that book's whole thing.

Nah, by all means speak your piece. You're not derailing anything. But I will ask you to defend your assertion if you don't mind. How do we know Badman's book is phony and/or what assertions did I make from the book that are disputed by other, better sources? I ask this in search of the truth, I have no personal stake in Badman's book being seen as a legit source or not. I obviously assumed it was and based on what I read from the Pet Sounds through SMiLE, Surf's Up and 15BO/LY Eras I saw nothing that jumped out at me as obviously phony. His timelines and descriptions of the SMiLE sessions seemed to corroborate what I remember reading from Vosse, for example.

The ~2 things that I'd be most "willing" to accept as falsehoods are the discrepancy with Bellagio on a later Fire session with vocals as well as the Beach Boys expecting SMiLE to be released concurrent with their tour of mainland Europe in late Spring of '67. And that's because I trust AGD personally and as a source plus the latter assertion just defies common sense unless there's more info we don't know. (I speculated maybe the group refused to do more vocal sessions with VDP's lyrics and Brian might've said "if you won't do it, I'll do em myself and you won't even be on the record!" and they must've said "fine, you won't have the guts!" and obviously he didn't. That's the only scenario I can think of that'd make them think SMiLE might've been ready in that timeframe if they hadn't recorded vocals for most tracks, at least as far as we know.)

I don't see any obvious agenda being pushed at least during the sections of the book I read. Mike Love is not framed as some nefarious source, nor is VDP and the Posse, nor even Brian though it doesn't shy away from his flaws. (Nor should it, frankly I'm a little tired of the superfans pretending his behavior somehow wouldn't be totally alienating to others--there's a reason literally everyone got sick of him by the end of the SMiLE sessions...) I'm open to being enlightened on this matter though.

On 20/20: Brian oversaw the overdubs on Our Prayer, not a case of the group working without him. Carl produced the mixdown. Cabin Essence was finished with Brian's consent and guidance but not his hands-on participation. It was again Carl specifically who produced the final additions and mixing.

Fair. I skipped over the WH through Sunflower and then Holland sections of the book because I'm not interested in the "Carl-led years" at this point in time.

If you're referring to the comments I made about those songs being pilfered without his permission, I mostly stand by my assertion. While Brian may have offered his blessing and oversaw aspects of the production, I've always interpreted it as a very reluctant gesture, putting the good of the band before his artistic integrity. That may be bias, may be putting the SMiLE material on a pedestal (it must be whole or it's been defiled) but it's the impression I had from the other sources I've read and fits with the way Brian is passive to a fault, letting the other guys push him around. For me, the Redwood incident and arguably the breakup of SMiLE itself (depending on how much blame you assign to the group's lukewarm-to-hostile reactions depending on the source) fits this pattern of behavior. I know including SU on the album of the same name was far from a pleasant agreeable process either. While Brian did rush in to teach them the Child coda, it was last minute after a ton of agonizing (my reading of the anecdote from several sources anyway) and I recall from I believe the Carlin bio (it's been 15 years, forgive me if I'm wrong on this) there was a scene where Brian sat on a swing-set crying as Carl told him they were gonna use SU on the next album whether he liked it or not. If I'm wrong, I take my words back if you could provide a better source, please.

On Psychodelic Sounds: Brian gave his thoughts in 2011 when he called that stuff the biggest load of junk he'd ever heard and kept wanting to skip past it. Really interesting window into his creative process for us, but not something Brian remembered or cared for beyond the hour-and-a-half-ish it took him and his friends to fill a few reels one night in a cloud of smoke.

I don't doubt this but could you share a link or citation please? It does ring true; I think older Brian was pretty disgusted or embarrassed by a lot of the "out there" parts of the SMiLE canon, especially by the 2000s. I just mean, I wish we had definitive confirmation of what the plan was for those "falling in an instrument" and "mock fights" scenes but especially by 2011 Brian's so different and more well-adjusted he probably dismisses it as hippie stoner nonsense too. It's like the stereotype of film executives on cocaine thinking their every inane idea is totally brilliant. And I admit I've been high and thought I was writing/experiencing something super profound but then looked at my notes later and realized it was either dumb or gibberish. I'm willing to accept that's how Brian views the more avant garde aspects of SMiLE now, and while I would like to talk to '66 Brian to get in his head, that guy's long gone and was even when the man was still alive. Ah well.

On fall '67 Surf's Up: Brian briefly thought about putting it on Wild Honey. It was to be heard as it was played, not a demo or sketch for some future idea. The plan probably dissolved five minutes after listening to the playback.

I'm somewhat glad he didn't; I don't think SU works on Wild Honey or even Smiley Smile. The tracks on Smiley, it seems to me, were carefully chosen as those that could exist outside the SMiLE context (Wonderful could just be female teen angst/growing pains and Wind Chimes are already the least SMiLE-song in terms of subject matter, etc) or reworked versions of other tracks from the '66 sessions to be as removed from it as possible (Whistle In is from Worms but now without the Americana or historical white guilt, etc) Anything that was too "deep," too innately serious or entwined in the SMiLE DNA was left off, especially SU as that was supposed to be the crown jewel. It wouldn't really work in the goofy Smiley aesthetic with weird singing intonations and glasses pouring and laughing. But it also wouldn't work with WH and the R&B vibe that had, nor the Friends aesthetic either. It might've been on 20/20 like the other 2 but I suspect that song in particular was always special to Brian and he didn't want it used in the wrong context.

This seems to be a hot take but I don't think it works even in '71. It always feels like whiplash to me on that album, though at least it's in better company rubbing elbows with "Til I Die" and even "A Day in the Life of a Tree" than it would've been on an album of scraps.

[WillJC]

All I would offer hopefully without detailing the enthusiasm is that Keith Badman's book isn't a reliable resource for anything, really. Just about everything from him in the original post can be thrown out. Making it up and getting the real information backwards is kinda that book's whole thing.

Nah, by all means speak your piece. You're not derailing anything. But I will ask you to defend your assertion if you don't mind. How do we know Badman's book is phony and/or what assertions did I make from the book that are disputed by other, better sources? I ask this in search of the truth, I have no personal stake in Badman's book being seen as a legit source or not. I obviously assumed it was and based on what I read from the Pet Sounds through SMiLE, Surf's Up and 15BO/LY Eras I saw nothing that jumped out at me as obviously phony. His timelines and descriptions of the SMiLE sessions seemed to corroborate what I remember reading from Vosse, for example.

The ~2 things that I'd be most "willing" to accept as falsehoods are the discrepancy with Bellagio on a later Fire session with vocals as well as the Beach Boys expecting SMiLE to be released concurrent with their tour of mainland Europe in late Spring of '67. And that's because I trust AGD personally and as a source plus the latter assertion just defies common sense unless there's more info we don't know. (I speculated maybe the group refused to do more vocal sessions with VDP's lyrics and Brian might've said "if you won't do it, I'll do em myself and you won't even be on the record!" and they must've said "fine, you won't have the guts!" and obviously he didn't. That's the only scenario I can think of that'd make them think SMiLE might've been ready in that timeframe if they hadn't recorded vocals for most tracks, at least as far as we know.)

I don't see any obvious agenda being pushed at least during the sections of the book I read. Mike Love is not framed as some nefarious source, nor is VDP and the Posse, nor even Brian though it doesn't shy away from his flaws. (Nor should it, frankly I'm a little tired of the superfans pretending his behavior somehow wouldn't be totally alienating to others--there's a reason literally everyone got sick of him by the end of the SMiLE sessions...) I'm open to being enlightened on this matter though.

Maybe I was a little harsh by saying 'anything', but that's been the rep in Beach Boys circles since the thing came out. Badman wasn't guilty of pushing agendas, or something like that - the problem is that he compiled swathes of information and knocked out the text in a hurry without properly researching the material on his hands. Quite regularly, you'll find one of the entrenched anecdotes from an interview or article arbitrarily assigned to one of the dates on his calender, just dropped there innocuously as fact. This isn't a Smile exclusive problem, it's recurrent throughout the whole book. There's also a lot of information from primary sources that's misinterpreted in a weird way without clarifying how he got to that conclusion, and a LOT of making things up from thin in air. I mean, a lot. Pet Sounds is especially egregious for a whole load of session dates he just... invented. Out of nothing. God knows why it's like that. On the live show side, Ian Rusten's beachboysgigs.com site is pulling the long haul to correct all of the problems it has with those.

I'll just pull out a few at random so you get the idea - in no way meant to put a downer on your post (but you know that already).

The Badman book specifically mentions that the "IWBA--Friday Night" pairing was titled "Im in Great Shape"

So, this one comes from the title on the AFM contract reading "FRIDAY NIGHT (I'm in great shape)." This isn't repeated on the tracksheet or slated on tape, where the only titles are set down clearly as "I Wanna Be Around" and "Friday Night." May not be nothing, but it also isn't uncommon for title mistakes and oddities to turn up on an AFM sheet, which were primarily a means to an end to get people paid (E.G., one of the "Child is Father of the Man" sessions was accidentally written as "Cabin Essence"). Badman ignores any grey area and runs with it. His description of what happened at the October 17 session logged in Capitol's files as "I'm in Great Shape" is also total fabrication.

I had always thought the famously canceled session of string players, where Brian sent these expensive musicians home at the last minute because "the vibes weren't right" occurred in Dec '66 for the second movement of Surf's Up and soon after Fire. According to Badman this was actually at the end of March '67 for Vega-Tables.

Total conjecture, adding 2 plus 2 to get 6. A couple of booked sessions at the end of March were cancelled. They didn't have titles and they didn't involve string players.

Badman mentions VDP left in 4/14 during a Veggies session date "after being tired of defending his lyrics and Brian dominating him."

That's a loose quote from Jules Siegal assigned to a date at random. The last time Van Dyke Parks can actually be confirmed attending a session is March 1.

Badman calls the Smiley Smile sessions "strained" ... Also, I always thought Capitol was responsible for putting GV on Smiley but according to Badman it was the rest of the band outvoting Brian.

These are also just him... making stuff up.

There seems to be a discrepancy (the only one I noticed) between Badman and AGD's site, where the former attests to a vocal session for Fire (!) on 12/5/66 that is not mentioned by the latter.

You already guessed, but this date for a session and the very idea of a Fire vocal session is spun into existence from nothing, for some reason.

I don't doubt this but could you share a link or citation please?
 

All of Brian's comments while listening to a draft assembly of the Smile Sessions box in 2011 were recorded for posterity.

[Julia]

Maybe I was a little harsh by saying 'anything', but that's been the rep in Beach Boys circles since the thing came out. Badman wasn't guilty of pushing agendas, or something like that - the problem is that he compiled swathes of information and knocked out the text in a hurry without properly researching the material on his hands. Quite regularly, you'll find one of the entrenched anecdotes from an interview or article arbitrarily assigned to one of the dates on his calender, just dropped there innocuously as fact. This isn't a Smile exclusive problem, it's recurrent throughout the whole book. There's also a lot of information from primary sources that's misinterpreted in a weird way without clarifying how he got to that conclusion, and a LOT of making things up from thin in air. I mean, a lot. Pet Sounds is especially egregious for a whole load of session dates he just... invented. Out of nothing. God knows why it's like that. On the live show side, Ian Rusten's beachboysgigs.com site is pulling the long haul to correct all of the problems it has with those.

I'll just pull out a few at random so you get the idea - in no way meant to put a downer on your post (but you know that already).

Yeah no worries, I dont take any of this as a put down. If you don't mind though, I'd love a recommendation for a better source that has the same breadth when it comes to the SMiLE sessions and maybe Surfs Up. I notice the wikipedia page for SMiLE has vastly improved over the last 15 years since I first read it. Where before it seemed like Beautiful Dreamer and the David Leaf "Brian and the 5 Assholes" narrative was dominant now it seems more even-handed and cross-indexed, with every song having its own detailed article to boot! I pulled up the few other books cited as references which are available on the Internet Archive to skim through; I was gonna make a follow-up in that vein for this thread, and keep a list of the sources I could not immediately read as well. Maybe you might tell me which of them are worthiest of the time to read?

Besides the two questionable anecdotes I mentioned in my first reply to you, the other thing I notice is those lost Psychedelic Sounds tracks don't seem to be referenced anywhere else and if they really were on the "same tape" as the others from November it just doesn't make sense why they'd be left off. Were they so boring that even the person who released Psychedelic Sounds said "nah, nobody needs to hear this" or was there some cussing or hidden homophobic rant that would've hurt the band's image? Just doesn't jive with me, but also it'd be such a ridiculous thing for Badman to make up out of nowhere.

So, this one comes from the title on the AFM contract reading "FRIDAY NIGHT (I'm in great shape)." This isn't repeated on the tracksheet or slated on tape, where the only titles are set down clearly as "I Wanna Be Around" and "Friday Night." May not be nothing, but it also isn't uncommon for title mistakes and oddities to turn up on an AFM sheet, which were primarily a means to an end to get people paid (E.G., one of the "Child is Father of the Man" sessions was accidentally written as "Cabin Essence"). Badman ignores any grey area and runs with it. His description of what happened at the October 17 session logged in Capitol's files as "I'm in Great Shape" is also total fabrication.

I see. That's disappointing because to me that tied up a rather annoying SMiLE mystery; the true identity of IIGS as listed on the tracklist. I refuse to think Brian would've included the brief snippet we know, or even the almost-equally brief instrumental segment dated 10/27/66 on the TSS boxset as a singular track. It couldve meant to be another name for the Barnyard suite but it's difficult to imagine how the two would go together well musically, and with the quote of BYS having "saws and hammering" it seemed to tie the two together in a way that fits and just makes everything make sense. But it's like getting definitive answers with this stuff is as tricky as pegging down quantum gravity and the true nature of dark matter. 

Even if it's "wrong" though, do you think this mistake might've influenced IIGS' "eggs and grits" verse's place on BWPS as an intro to IWBA? Seems to fit the pattern of bootlegs, fan mixes and misdirection bleeding into the final product that we see in a lot of that project's tracklist anyway.

Total conjecture, adding 2 plus 2 to get 6. A couple of booked sessions at the end of March were cancelled. They didn't have titles and they didn't involve string players.

For this, I'm going to require a bit more from you. Because it isn't just Badman listing sessions as cancelled under specific track names but also AGD's Bellagio site.
http://www.bellagio10452.com/gigs67.html With two, let's call them "semi-reliable" sources at the very least, testifying to the same thing, I'd need to see something hefty in order to discount them both.

That's a loose quote from Jules Siegal assigned to a date at random. The last time Van Dyke Parks can actually be confirmed attending a session is March 1.

Again, I'm willing to believe you over the book and certainly VDP's coming and going back and forth doesn't make much intuitive sense to me, but I would like to know how you're so sure if you don't mind. Even just a half-remembered "pretty sure I read this in X book" would be very appreciated so I could weigh sources, please.

These are also just him... making stuff up.

That would make sense since Badman's take on Smiley seemingly contradicts what I recall reading elsewhere. If you could recommend a good read on this very murky period in the group's history I've always wanted to know more.

You already guessed, but this date for a session and the very idea of a Fire vocal session is spun into existence from nothing, for some reason.

For this one, I'll just take your word on it because I trust AGD. He's always been kind to me across the forums and I think the "worst" thing anyone could say about him is he doesn't suffer fools lightly. He's staked his reputation on being the guy with the documentation and if his research was built on falsehood Im sure he'd have been called out by now and the people he's rubbed the wrong way would never let us forget it. So, point taken, I believe Badman is off on this one.

All of Brian's comments while listening to a draft assembly of the Smile Sessions box in 2011 were recorded for posterity.

I don't doubt it but where, on YouTube? Was it in the booklet that comes with TSS? (I own a copy but haven't read it in a long time--I'll be sure to soon though, since my interest in SMiLE has been reignited!)

[guitarfool2002]

5) remains highly speculative, and it's certainly possible that Brian didn't get as explicit about this shifting arrangement as he needed to be (which would explain why and how the Wally Heider/Redwood incident occurred in October 1967). But GF's discovery of Brian's comments to the Honolulu press in August 1967 clearly points to the idea that he was envisioning a less central role in the band to be a likely outcome in the not-too-distant future.

Don - Without restating a lot of points we both have previously discussed here, I want to point to yet another reported news item related to Hawaii in the summer of '67, and that is the report where Dennis Wilson traveled to Hawaii in late July 1967 prior to the concerts and said he was shopping for a house in Hawaii and was considering a move. This was reported in the Hawaii press as I outlined here with the timeline:

While looking up archival articles from this discussion that turned toward the Hawaii shows in August 67: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,27606.0.html  ,
I found some interesting footnotes from that summer related to Dennis visiting Honolulu in July '67 and shopping for a house there! I thought the timeline was interesting based on surrounding articles and announcements first of the concert being a rumor, then a confirmation of the concert and how it would be recorded for a live album. It's also interesting to think how history may have been different if Dennis had bought property in Hawaii that summer, because not only does it suggest he was looking for a getaway out of LA, but also Manson had just been released from prison a few months ago, and if Dennis was spending more time in Hawaii than LA, they may never have crossed paths in '68.

Most of this comes from Dave Donnelly's "The Teen Beat" music column which appeared in the Honolulu Star-Bulletin. In his Wednesday July 26th '67 column, he wrote:
"All six of the Beach Boys (the sixth being Bruce Johnston) sing on the group's barbershop flavored "Heroes And Villains". Rumor has it that the group may appear in Honolulu before the summer is over. They want to record an 'in person' album here, because the crowds are so responsive and groovy." Then, interestingly, he mentions Bobbie Gentry's "Ode To Billie Joe" single, coincidentally she would appear with the Boys for her debut live performance at the concerts which were just a rumor at this point.

Then in Donnelly's Saturday July 29th '67 column in the Star-Bulletin, he writes this, after reporting Carl's acquittal in a US District Court on his draft evasion charges:
"Brother Dennis Wilson sneaked into Honolulu this week, and announced to pals he wants to live here permanently. If The Beach Boys plan to stick together as a performing group, a move seems unlikely, but don't be surprised at an announcement that the group will do a show here in the near future."

A few days later, Wednesday Aug. 2 '67, Donnelly wrote:
"Beach Boy Dennis Wilson is house hunting in Honolulu. He already has a home in Los Angeles, but would like to have a headquarters here as well. We asked him if he'd just fly back to record and he replied, "Maybe we'll build a recording studio here." Could it be that all the Beach Boys will move here? In the meantime Dennis is looking for a house, "preferably an old one."
Again Donnelly mentions Billie Gentry, how her single sold 500,000 copies in two weeks, and how a Mainland (Hawaii) promoter is interested in bringing her here for a show.

The next day, August 3rd, both the Star-Bulletin (as a regular news story) and the Honolulu Advertiser (in Wayne Harada's 'On The Record' music column) announced the Beach Boys "Summer Spectacular" series of concerts with Paul Revere for the 25th and 26th, not mentioning Gentry's addition to the lineup until the next week. Harada's column mentioned that a live album would be recorded at the shows.

I found it interesting that Dennis flew to Hawaii the week before the concerts were announced, and made his own announcement that he was shopping for a home there! I wonder how much more this series of events extends into Beach Boys history at that time beyond Dennis visiting Hawaii low-key, and whether there were talks within the band of actually moving there too in some capacity. Obviously Dennis spoke to Donnelly, otherwise Donnelly would not have been able to print quotes as he did. Donnelly seemed to have the inside track on the upcoming concerts too, prior to the official announcements, did he get that info from Dennis himself on that visit? And who else went with Dennis on this trip? Management, Capitol reps, etc? It just mentions his "pals".

And it's still fascinating to think how history would have been different if Dennis had indeed bought a house there in '67.

And the entire thread which eventually turned into similar issues as we've discussed concerning this time period can be found here:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,27692.msg671292.html#msg671292


So it adds yet another layer to these topics: Not only was Brian telling the press in Hawaii what he told them when he was there for the concerts about his future role with The Beach Boys, but also Dennis was in Hawaii weeks before on his own announcing he was looking for a house there, possibly to set up a "headquarters" there, and saying "maybe we'll build a recording studio here." Does that sound like a group that was sure about their future, or does it suggest more was at play and at stake in that Summer of '67 than perhaps many would think was the case, or from the history told by or taken from recording dates and session sheets? At that time, late July and August '67, there was Brian saying he wasn't sure about the future with the Beach Boys, you have Dennis saying he wants to move to Hawaii, and you have Carl having just been acquitted by a district court on draft evasion charges and still facing more issues related to his case about the draft. Not exactly a group on solid footing with the 3 Wilson brothers in those situations.

[guitarfool2002]

And I will - despite telling Don otherwise just a few minutes ago - rehash one point which I've already beaten into the ground many times through the years but which I think is another crucial one to consider. There is actual audio proof which we can all hear on our own now of where The Beach Boys' "sound" was at during the "Smiley Smile era", i.e. Summer 1967. The Hawaii concerts and the subsequent Heider re-recording sessions feature the band - as a self-contained unit - playing both their hits and their new material in a style that sounds very much like Smiley Smile sounds on record. And spending a relative boatload of money to record the results for a possible future live album. Tell me that's just a coincidence...

[Don Malcolm]

Will, what is the time frame in 1968 when Brian was hospitalized due to emotional issues? My recollection is that it happened at the tail end of the year, not so shortly after the work done on the two SMiLE tracks that wound up on 20/20. The combination of heightened consternation about the band's fortunes from the rest of the BBs, combined with an elevated level of remorse on Brian's part when he could not rise to the occasion and turn "Can't Wait Too Long" into a single capable of reversing the band's commercial slide, and the presence of the band in close proximity at the home studio would seem to be a rather devastating 1-2-3 punch for Brian, leading into a period where he was a "shadow songwriter" for the group, with decreasing deference from the rest of the band (i.e. the consternation about the "Til I Die" lyrics) and a return to his pattern of seeking collaborators from outside the band (Tandyn Almer, Don Goldberg).

It still had to be painful to see the bones of SMiLE being picked, regardless of whether Brian participated in preparing them or not. Only he knew how to complete those tracks, of course, so he was pretty much forced to be involved once that territory was invaded. While we can't suggest it was the main reason for the depressive downturn that manifested itself (and would persist and grow more pronounced over time), it couldn't have helped the situation. As was likewise the long-term case with the resurrection of "Surf's Up" a couple of years later.

With respect to "Cabinessence," it seems that despite the discussion indicating that the "Who Ran The Iron Horse" segment was involved in some of the early '67 tinkering, it appears that the track was still intact when Carl and Dennis conducted their audit in the fall of '68. Or was there a need to "re-splice" that section back into the order that we hear it (in bootlegs that appear to date from late '66)? The Bellagio reference for this session only specify additional vocals, and since it's stated that Brian didn't directly participate in the session, it seems to indicate that the backing track (including the backing vocals recorded in late '66) was basically intact at that time.

I think these details help to explain the barriers that grew so precipitous regarding SMiLE in the years that followed, and kept them stubbornly intact until David Leaf was able to crack the door open by getting portions of SMiLE onto the 1993 box set.

[WillJC]

Even if it's "wrong" though, do you think this mistake might've influenced IIGS' "eggs and grits" verse's place on BWPS as an intro to IWBA? Seems to fit the pattern of bootlegs, fan mixes and misdirection bleeding into the final product that we see in a lot of that project's tracklist anyway.

I think it might have, yeah. Those connections were being made among fans long before all of the tapes were heard. That definitely influenced Frank Holmes' artwork for the title in the 90s.

For this, I'm going to require a bit more from you. Because it isn't just Badman listing sessions as cancelled under specific track names but also AGD's Bellagio site.
http://www.bellagio10452.com/gigs67.html With two, let's call them "semi-reliable" sources at the very least, testifying to the same thing, I'd need to see something hefty in order to discount them both.

The sources of those cancelled 3/28 and 3/30 dates are a couple of AFM contracts submitted to pay the musicians because the bookings were called off without a 7 day notice period. Neither have a title - that's just an assumption about what Brian might've planned to do because he was back in the studio a week later recording Vegetables. Both sessions would've employed Hal Blaine, Gene Estes, Carol Kaye, Bill Pitman, and Lyle Ritz.

Again, I'm willing to believe you over the book and certainly VDP's coming and going back and forth doesn't make much intuitive sense to me, but I would like to know how you're so sure if you don't mind. Even just a half-remembered "pretty sure I read this in X book" would be very appreciated so I could weigh sources, please.

March 1 is the last time Van Dyke was paid for a session and the last time he's heard on tape. Not to say that he couldn't have been hanging around socially in April, but there's a lot of candid material on those tapes and he isn't heard anywhere, or mentioned by participants in the many colourful Vegetables anecdotes set at Sound Recorders. The only credible evidence that Van Dyke was around for Vegetables comes from him telling Domenic Priore, "I recall being at the instrumental recording of it, but I don’t recall being in the vocal." At best that's quite ambiguous, given that the song was both recorded in fall '66 and spring '67. Or he could've been a one-off silent visitor watching Brian cut the tag at Gold Star. There's nothing solid, basically. Any author putting a definitive date on a exit for him is just fishing for a neat and tidy answer that doesn't exist.

I don't doubt it but where, on YouTube? Was it in the booklet that comes with TSS? (I own a copy but haven't read it in a long time--I'll be sure to soon though, since my interest in SMiLE has been reignited!)

Nothing in the public sphere I'm afraid.

Besides the two questionable anecdotes I mentioned in my first reply to you, the other thing I notice is those lost Psychedelic Sounds tracks don't seem to be referenced anywhere else and if they really were on the "same tape" as the others from November it just doesn't make sense why they'd be left off. Were they so boring that even the person who released Psychedelic Sounds said "nah, nobody needs to hear this" or was there some cussing or hidden homophobic rant that would've hurt the band's image? Just doesn't jive with me, but also it'd be such a ridiculous thing for Badman to make up out of nowhere.

There were four 1/4" reels recorded November 4, 1966 following the Surf's Up session.
1. Dialogue
2. More dialogue
3. The "Psychodelic Sounds" skits and chants, Heroes and Villains played for Harvey Miller.
4. Sound effects copied over from Vosse's NAGRA reels. These include the Chicago cab driver, hosepipe sounds, basketball game, etc.

[WillJC]

Will, what is the time frame in 1968 when Brian was hospitalized due to emotional issues? My recollection is that it happened at the tail end of the year, not so shortly after the work done on the two SMiLE tracks that wound up on 20/20.

No idea, honestly. If it's true, and I don't doubt it, could've been any time in the latter half of '68. Your guess is as good as mine.

[Julia]

Will, what is the time frame in 1968 when Brian was hospitalized due to emotional issues? My recollection is that it happened at the tail end of the year, not so shortly after the work done on the two SMiLE tracks that wound up on 20/20. The combination of heightened consternation about the band's fortunes from the rest of the BBs, combined with an elevated level of remorse on Brian's part when he could not rise to the occasion and turn "Can't Wait Too Long" into a single capable of reversing the band's commercial slide, and the presence of the band in close proximity at the home studio would seem to be a rather devastating 1-2-3 punch for Brian, leading into a period where he was a "shadow songwriter" for the group, with decreasing deference from the rest of the band (i.e. the consternation about the "Til I Die" lyrics) and a return to his pattern of seeking collaborators from outside the band (Tandyn Almer, Don Goldberg).

Yeah, I know one of the primary sources (I believe it was Anderle in Crawdaddy, can double check if asked) said "once they built the home studio it was all over" or words to that effect. I can see the hoped-for benefits of it: instead of late-night calls to come to a pro studio you can just do it at your convenience, etc. But the unspoken implication is: you better record your every passing thought on-command, we are entitled to your every creative urge, we are gonna be up in your house forcing you to be productive, there is no escape from your obligations to the band. Whether they realized how that looked and didn't care or what it's difficult to say. It's easy for us to say they should've left Brian alone for a year or two to get his bearings when it's not ours and our families' livelihoods on the line, but also the fact that they belittled a lot of his contributions (including desecrating his self-described symphony for scrap, I would argue) is mixed messaging to the extreme and would make anyone feel bitter or checked-out. It's a complicated and tragic situation with no real winners.

While the acid didn't help, I think Brian's biggest unspoken problem was a form of what they call "meth psychosis" from all the uppers he took, combined with paranoia after years of chronic hashish use. Hash is like weed x10 and already I know a lot of people who claim just regular weed use makes them paranoid as hell. All the delusions of Phil Spector spying on him--acid doesn't cause delirious thought patterns like that, especially not after its effects have worn off. The people blaming acid for these thought patterns have never done it and have an axe to grind against "scary big bad LSD" because "muh flashbacks (which are a myth in my experience)." It is likely that acid brought on the schizoaffective symptoms but they would have started appearing anyway if he had the genes for it and I would argue the other psychoactive substances he was consuming regularly had as much or more to do with exacerbating it than 1-3 trips (still can't get a straight answer on how many). Remember, the first one he did was right before California Girls and his breakdown did not occur for another year after that, while in the meantime he produced what is universally considered his best work. Anyway, the euphoric high followed by the crushing lows of speed-abuse explains why he was convinced SMiLE was the best music ever one month and then hated it just 4~5 months later, to say nothing of dreading the arduous task of assembling it and wrangling the guys to sing lyrics they didn't care for. (Mike didn't kill SMiLE but there's more than enough evidence the guys gave him a hard time consistently--the Badman book and new Wiki article mentions several spats at least and a quote from Mike that's even worse than "dont eff with the formula" when he said "this music disgusts me.")

It still had to be painful to see the bones of SMiLE being picked, regardless of whether Brian participated in preparing them or not. Only he knew how to complete those tracks, of course, so he was pretty much forced to be involved once that territory was invaded. While we can't suggest it was the main reason for the depressive downturn that manifested itself (and would persist and grow more pronounced over time), it couldn't have helped the situation. As was likewise the long-term case with the resurrection of "Surf's Up" a couple of years later.

Yeah, this is my take as well. There's a subsection in the new wiki page about possible tape leaks, where subordinates may have sent out demos of the SMiLE music to competitors like the Beatles. (I recall a thread on this forum determining the timeline was impossible at least when it came to the Beatles hearing it to influence Pepper and I believe it; especially after Revolver it's not like they couldn't have figured out how to produce Mr Kite on their own.) But the point is Brian thought that happened and described the feeling as being "raped." So for the band to first reject SMiLE and then sell it piecemeal for scrap had to be at least some degree of a negative stimuli, either akin to a rape at the extreme or at least some form of betrayal. It's like if your friend dumps you for a "cooler" group and then realizes "actually, you're the best I can do." You feel like "oh, NOW I'm good enough, huh?"

With respect to "Cabinessence," it seems that despite the discussion indicating that the "Who Ran The Iron Horse" segment was involved in some of the early '67 tinkering, it appears that the track was still intact when Carl and Dennis conducted their audit in the fall of '68. Or was there a need to "re-splice" that section back into the order that we hear it (in bootlegs that appear to date from late '66)? The Bellagio reference for this session only specify additional vocals, and since it's stated that Brian didn't directly participate in the session, it seems to indicate that the backing track (including the backing vocals recorded in late '66) was basically intact at that time.

I think these details help to explain the barriers that grew so precipitous regarding SMiLE in the years that followed, and kept them stubbornly intact until David Leaf was able to crack the door open by getting portions of SMiLE onto the 1993 box set.

I'm curious about this, and why the Reconnected Telephone lyrics were seemingly abandoned, and if not in the first chorus as I suspect if they went somewhere else originally

[Julia]

The sources of those cancelled 3/28 and 3/30 dates are a couple of AFM contracts submitted to pay the musicians because the bookings were called off without a 7 day notice period. Neither have a title - that's just an assumption about what Brian might've planned to do because he was back in the studio a week later recording Vegetables. Both sessions would've employed Hal Blaine, Gene Estes, Carol Kaye, Bill Pitman, and Lyle Ritz.

March 1 is the last time Van Dyke was paid for a session and the last time he's heard on tape. Not to say that he couldn't have been hanging around socially in April, but there's a lot of candid material on those tapes and he isn't heard anywhere, or mentioned by participants in the many colourful Vegetables anecdotes set at Sound Recorders. The only credible evidence that Van Dyke was around for Vegetables comes from him telling Domenic Priore, "I recall being at the instrumental recording of it, but I don’t recall being in the vocal." At best that's quite ambiguous, given that the song was both recorded in fall '66 and spring '67. Or he could've been a one-off silent visitor watching Brian cut the tag at Gold Star. There's nothing solid, basically. Any author putting a definitive date on a exit for him is just fishing for a neat and tidy answer that doesn't exist.

Nothing in the public sphere I'm afraid.

There were four 1/4" reels recorded November 4, 1966 following the Surf's Up session.
1. Dialogue
2. More dialogue
3. The "Psychodelic Sounds" skits and chants, Heroes and Villains played for Harvey Miller.
4. Sound effects copied over from Vosse's NAGRA reels. These include the Chicago cab driver, hosepipe sounds, basketball game, etc.

Again, I'm willing to believe you, pretty much everything you say makes intuitive sense to me, but I'd just appreciate a definitive source is all. I don't know the names of all the band's various partners, friends and confidants through the decades as many other posters do (terrible with names and I admit my focus is more limited to SMiLE than most), so if you are an insider who's seen this evidence for yourself firsthand, just say the word and I'll take your testimony at face value. Otherwise, I'd just appreciate something I can point to if I ever parrot this info in the future beyond "someone on a forum told me..."

I do appreciate it and your contributions in any case  

[WillJC]

The sources of those cancelled 3/28 and 3/30 dates are a couple of AFM contracts submitted to pay the musicians because the bookings were called off without a 7 day notice period. Neither have a title - that's just an assumption about what Brian might've planned to do because he was back in the studio a week later recording Vegetables. Both sessions would've employed Hal Blaine, Gene Estes, Carol Kaye, Bill Pitman, and Lyle Ritz.

March 1 is the last time Van Dyke was paid for a session and the last time he's heard on tape. Not to say that he couldn't have been hanging around socially in April, but there's a lot of candid material on those tapes and he isn't heard anywhere, or mentioned by participants in the many colourful Vegetables anecdotes set at Sound Recorders. The only credible evidence that Van Dyke was around for Vegetables comes from him telling Domenic Priore, "I recall being at the instrumental recording of it, but I don’t recall being in the vocal." At best that's quite ambiguous, given that the song was both recorded in fall '66 and spring '67. Or he could've been a one-off silent visitor watching Brian cut the tag at Gold Star. There's nothing solid, basically. Any author putting a definitive date on a exit for him is just fishing for a neat and tidy answer that doesn't exist.

Nothing in the public sphere I'm afraid.

There were four 1/4" reels recorded November 4, 1966 following the Surf's Up session.
1. Dialogue
2. More dialogue
3. The "Psychodelic Sounds" skits and chants, Heroes and Villains played for Harvey Miller.
4. Sound effects copied over from Vosse's NAGRA reels. These include the Chicago cab driver, hosepipe sounds, basketball game, etc.

Again, I'm willing to believe you, pretty much everything you say makes intuitive sense to me, but I'd just appreciate a definitive source is all. I don't know the names of all the band's various partners, friends and confidants through the decades as many other posters do (terrible with names and I admit my focus is more limited to SMiLE than most), so if you are an insider who's seen this evidence for yourself firsthand, just say the word and I'll take your testimony at face value. Otherwise, I'd just appreciate something I can point to if I ever parrot this info in the future beyond "someone on a forum told me..."

I do appreciate it and your contributions in any case  

Yes, I've either seen/heard this material firsthand or know those who do have direct access to it and can describe it in detail, haha. I don't mean to come across as ambiguous!