[SMiLE]

I gotta admit, I have been into this SMiLE business for quite a while now, but I have no idea what "False Barnyard", "Barnshine", and "Air Dada" are. Or "All Day" for that matter. Could somebody explain or Possibly Make it so I finally knew what the sh*t these parts are supposed to be. I'm so confused on all this.

In other news, while at first I hoped they would somehow be able to present SMiLE in some kind of "finished" way, I realized that probably isn't going to happen. So I figured they should treat it like Dylan's The Basement Tapes and maybe do an album called The SMiLE Sessions which should count as an album in The Beach Boys canon, featuring the best possible versions of every single song, with Brian's approval of course. So if Brian feels the Smiley Smile version is the essential take of "H&V" for SMiLE then so be it. Same with the '71 "Surf's Up", and so on.  Then in a separate "deluxe" treatment give us all other valuable outtakes and alternates.

I guess what I mean is I just want this to be a concise collection for the public to get the essence of SMiLE, but also a larger collection for us Smiley Smiler's to feast upon. I know I already wrote something like this, but yeah.

I agree...If it is like the Pet Sounds box set I will be super happy...lots more stuff on the bootleg circuit, but the set is pristine. I'm still drooling over it. Hell I took it out again last night just to look through the books because I am that excited for this SMiLE! whatever we are getting.

I am really looking forward to the quality of the music...what is often out there isn't that swell compared to the real deal. As Jasper said earlier, there may be something or another that has gone under the radar...I will keep an open mind.

What's the odds it is all 66/67? Could there be some stuff that was worked on until 72, or the Bruce tinkered Worms? Alternate versions CD, puhleeaase!!!

My understanding is that Carl & Steve Desper took the tapes out of the vault in 1972, listened to them, shook their heads, made safeties and put them back in the boxes. No additional recording was done. Some additional work was done on "Been Way Too Long"  in 1980 (2/11 at Rumbo).

I gotta ask, why does "When Girls Get Together" get pulled out of the vault and released, but "Do You Like Worms" and "Can't Wait Too Long" get taken out, but then stay unreleased? Why Brian against both? Or did they just realize releasing songs like those would make tracks like "Sumahuma" and "Some Of Your Love" seem even more embarassing?

[Smiley Smile]

So what does everybody think? What kinda versions do you think we'll get out of "Heroes And Villains", "Surf's Up", "Wonderful", "Cabin Essence", or "Wind Chimes"? Same as the '93 box set? How will the unfinished tracks be presented? if no new vocals were recorded, I'm really intrigued to see how this plays out. I really hope we get some ultimate version of "Heroes". Incorporating a bunch of different parts. My favorite version as of now is the Smiley Smile version, but I gotta imagine there might be something just as cool still waiting for us. And also, "Surf's Up"....maybe they will do what the Anne Wallace (I think?) mix did with "Surf's Up" and sync the solo piano version to the backing track? Or just use the completed '71 version? Will they just try to put the material into a listenable order? Or follow BWPS? Do they use "I Love To Say Da Da" or "Cool, Cool Water"

My hope is that it gets released in a one-disc format for the average person, showcasing what will be the album entitled SMiLE by The Beach Boys. Then, along with that, have a deluxe edition (for us) that will include alternate takes of stuff like "Heroes'", the "rock with me Henry" version of "Wonderful", "He Gives Speeches", and whatever other cool stuff they find. I'm assuming it might just be a 2-disc thing, if only because Al didn't use the words "box-set". And I'd be Ok with a 2-disc set as long as it give us all the most complete versions of every song from the SMiLE era. I still find this odd if Brian considers this The Beach Boys version of SMiLE, if only because it seems like SMiLE, to him, was the 2004 album.

What's everybody else say?

[BWRG]

I know it probably wasn't in Brian's best interest to announce that he might play or record with The Beach Boys in 2011 while talking about BWRG, so I could see why he would say he wasn't gonna do it, but does anybody think it is possible that he actually might not play a concert with them at all, or do any kind of recording or DVD special with them?

I mean, he has shows in the fall already scheduled right? And he is recording for his Disney project. And I would assume any real solid reunion would require a bit of work, so I'm kinda nervous about the prospects of a reunion featuring Brian.

I mean, if it happened, I'd be as ecstatic as anyone. But I want, for once, the band to present themselves to the public in a way befitting of all the great music they made.

I guess what I'm saying is I just hope they do a proper reunion concert type thing.

But anyways, I wonder what the set-up would be if Brian ends up being there? Would he have his protective keyboard like his solo shows? Or do they throw him to the grand piano on the side of the stage again?

If Al shows up, neat. But pleeeeease, I hope Brian doesn't. Besides the fact that I don't want The Beach Boys to reunite for Ronald Reagan, I just think that would play Brian directly into Mike's hand. A short set? Ah, how convenient. Just time probably for the classic, scrubbed-clean, fun in the sun hits from 62-64, plus maybe "Kokomo". How about lets wait for a full fledged reunion, and do this the right way.

[SMiLE]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

Strongly disagree. It doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought in 1965. The fact is Brian said "Let Him Run Wild" isn't a good record. Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. And that's that. John Lennon hought I Am the Walrus wasn't a good production. Artist are often too close to their work to appreciate or judge it. What matters is the emotions the music evokes in the listner. The nth generation cassette dub of the '66 CITFOTM backing track takes me somewhere the '04 version doesn't approach. Whether BW deems the 2004 version 'finished' isn't a factor in my appreciation of the '66 version.

My beef with the 2004 additions is not that BW dared work on them decades later, it's that they suck. The Holidays lyrics, the "is it hot as hell" bit, the fake tack piano sounds. Almost all of the new stuff, like it or not, doesn't gel with the '66 stuff. Kind of like the CGI stuff Lucas added to the first Star Wars film. The 'Look' vocal melody is an exception, that totally works. Just my .02. Maybe it is sour grapes because we *still* don't have the most finished '66-'67 versions in existence. Not only that but apparently BW, Van Dyke and Darian didn't have the acetates that document Brian's final work on the original sessions. Why cobble IIGS together and write new lyrics to CITFOTM without listening to the most complete original versions? (I'm assuming that the various unheard acetates known to exist includes those two titles..)

I actually agree with you. I prefer the original sessions stuff too. My only point was that the SMiLE album was released by Brian Wilson. Those are the versions he chose to put out. That doesn't mean we have to enjoy "Do You Like Worms" any less than "Roll Plymouth Rock". Honestly, I think the "Holidays" lyrics do suck, along with the "In Blue Hawaii" lyrics. And I also think "Holidays" was probably dismissed by Brian by the time they gave Capitol the song title list. Same with "Look". And I also feel "I Love To Say Da Da" reached fruition as "Cool Cool Water", so I didn't see the point in rewriting it as "In Blue Hawaii".

However, SMiLE is Brian and Van Dyke's work, so guess what, they got the last word on what it is (or isn't).

One other thing though, what is this about the acetates of Brian's final work on the original sessions? Are you saying there is more unbooted stuff that even Brian didn't have access to in '03? Where is it? Is it in the Brother vaults?

- Hasn't it been confirmed that the 2004 Child verse lyrics were in fact newly written?

Yes.

Maybe someday the original verse lyrics will surface on a long-lost tape or acetate or David Oppenheim's legendary 'Inside Pop' outtakes & audio.

Not that I don't believe this, but where was this confirmed?

How do I just buy this issue? Send 10 bucks via paypal to esqeditor@aol.com?

If so I will be doing that very soon.

[SMiLE]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

Absolutely the best post ever written about Smile or BWPS.

Well, the unspoken assumption behind that post is that Smile was 100% a Brian Wilson album and 0% a Beach Boys album.  BWPS, wonderful though it is, is not a Beach Boys record, and therefore not a finished version of the 67 album so much as a re-imagination of it. 

Whatever you need to call it, Brian did write most of it, therefore...

Well, I mean, Paul McCartney offered "Junk", "Teddy Boy," and a few other songs to The Beatles. George Harrison offered, amongst others, "All Things Must Pass". Lennon had "Gimme Some Truth" and "Child of Nature". And they ended up finishing and releasing these songs not as the Beatles, but as solo artists. Should we not consider "The Back Seat of My Car" to be a true finishing of that song because although Paul premiered it for the group during the Get Back sessions, he finished it in a way that may have been different from a potential Beatles version during the Ram sessions. I know I'm comparing songs to an album, but I mean, what i'm saying is Brian (and Van Dyke) had the final call on this material, and not any of the other Beach Boys or David Anderle or Jack Reilly or Gene Landy. Therefore, whether we like it or not, SMiLE '04 is the only version there is. Maybe The Beach Boys will put out some release of it, but who knows, as of now, we have some songs intended for the project on scattered albums and then the 2004 album and thats it.

[SMiLE]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

Lame excuse. Didn't they have a bunch of band photos from recently, post-Pet Sounds? And less striped-shirty?

[Summer Days]

By the way, does anybody know if the cover was going to be a gatefold? I've been reading around that it wasn't, but I was pretty sure it was. With the front cover with the shop, the back cover with the "Carl/Dennis/Mike/Al/Bruce" live lineup, and then a psychedelic photo of Brian in the opening of the gatefold, with a booklet thrown in too if I'm correct? Let me know if I'm wrong.

The fact that the known mockups for the sleeve prepared in December 1966 were for a normal LP, and that no artwork for the inside of a gatefold has even been hinted at, would seem to fatally undermine your belief.

I believe you Andrew, but I seem to remember there being talk of a photo of Brian on on the inside or something. I guess it was just a fake or something. But anyways, who made the decision that Brian wouldn't even be shown in the "group-shot" on the back cover of one of the groups most "Brian-centric" albums. I mean I can understand Al missed the Summer Days shoot, so he wasn't on that, and I can understand that Brian wasn't on the 20/20 cover because from 68-69 there didn't seem to be many shots of Brian with the group, but why wouldn't he be in the photo for SMiLE.?

Anyways, back to the songs....any other opinions?

[15 Big Ones]

Does anybody think he did it unintentionally?  I gotta admit, I think his voice from the 15 Big Ones-era thru the recording of at least "Stevie" (approximately late 1975 until 1981).

Do you think he was ever bummed that his voice changed? I don't think so myself, although I do feel from reading interviews, that he did know he needed to up his game for when he started doing his solo tours, but that was more about his singing in the correct way, and less about his voice, if that makes any sense.

Me myself, I think the only times where I find his vocals unbearable are indeed "Let Him Run Wild" (sorry! I do agree with Brian, too shrill, kinda bothers me), "She's Got Rhythm" (too screechy!),  most of BB85, Brian Wilson, Sweet Insanity, and Orange Crate Art. For some reason I enjoy his vocals on I Just Wasn't Made For These Times even though its apparently from the same time as OCA. But with Imagination he sounded great, along with most of SMiLE, TLOS, and BWRG. On GIOMH the material was so bad, that even good singing wouldn't have saved most.

During the second Landy era he just sounded way too nasal, I don't know what that voice was all about. Way too shouty, and it almost sounds like he wants to sound like Mike Love at points. I think if he would have sang in a softer tone like on BWRG, but in the 80's, he would have sounded much more "commercial". I forget what song it is, I think "Heavenly Bodies", but for a bit in that song, he sounds much more mellow, and it sounded really good.

But anyways, what I'm saying is I've accepted what his voice is, and I don't really wish he got it back or anything, except in one case. Listening to "Surf's Up" from BWPS the phrasing is just a little different, and thats where I miss the younger Brian vocals. But at the same time, its still a very emotional song and performance from Brian, who seems to be giving near his all.

[Smiley Smile]

Moreover, it seems unlikely that a 1967 version of SMiLE would have Do You Like Worms. Didn't Brian cut out the Bicycle Rider part from that to shore up Heroes?
 I don't think Look would have been on the album at all, he never returned to it later on. I wonder what the lyrics were about.

The only reason I say "Worms" would make it is simply its inclusion on the tracklisting. If indeed they released the album that year, they would have used that sleeve. The only reason they didn't use it for Smiley Smile was because it had a different title and way different tracklist.

I know he ended up taking part of "Worms" for "Heroes" but I figure he still would have used it due to it being listed.

I also agree with your reasoning on "Look". It was probably something he deemed unnecessary along with "Holidays" and "He Gives Speeches". I honestly think SMiLE, if released in 1967, probably would have been in a pretty conventional format. The songs would be something new and crazy, but its presentation, probably nothing crazy.

By the way, does anybody know if the cover was going to be a gatefold? I've been reading around that it wasn't, but I was pretty sure it was. With the front cover with the shop, the back cover with the "Carl/Dennis/Mike/Al/Bruce" live lineup, and then a psychedelic photo of Brian in the opening of the gatefold, with a booklet thrown in too if I'm correct? Let me know if I'm wrong.

Given that  Brian completed an edited backing track to "Child Is Father Of The Man" (just under 3 minutes?), chances are that one would have been it's own song.

I believe that "Child" would have been its own song. But does anybody think it would have been linked with "Surf's Up" as a lead in? Now that I think about it, probably not. I don't think Brian was doing that kinda thing, the Beatles probably did do that first.

[SMiLE]

I know this has been done before, many many times, but I'd like to see what this group of people think about this.

So as we know, there was a tracklisting printed out on the record sleeve for SMiLE in 1967.

So we can assume the following tracks would be included:

• "Do You Like Worms?"
• "Wind Chimes"
• "Heroes and Villains"
• "Surf's Up"
• "Cabin Essence"
• "Wonderful"
• "Vega-Tables"

However what does everybody think would have happened with the other tracks, such as:

• "I'm In Great Shape": Would it have been more than just the fragment? Or would "I Wanna Be Around" be included? "Workshop"? I doubt it.
• "Child Is Father of The Man": Would it still have lead into "Surf's Up". It sure makes sense, but do we have any proof this was thought of before '03?
• "The Elements": Probably would have had "I Love To Say Da Da" and "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" but what else. Lets not even bother starting this
• "The Old Master Painter": Was this always paired with "You Are My Sunshine"? Would there have been more to it?
• "Look": My guess is this was either discarded or possibly meant to be part of "Wonderful" as one track? Most likely discarded.
• "Holidays": This was probably discarded too.
• "He Gives Speeches": Discarded.
• "Barnyard": Maybe included with "I'm In Great Shape", maybe with "Heroes And Villains"....possibly discarded.
  

Anyways, what does everybody else think? Do we have any reason to believe that "Look" or "Holidays" would have made the album?

Still to me, that back cover tracklisting gives me trouble. How do "The Old Master Painter" and "I'm In Great Shape" warrant their own tracks. Alright, lets see what you guys think.

[KTSA]

Surprisingly, I've never heard Little Girl.

Equally as surprising, Sunshine's my 2nd favorite cut on the album.

I like the fact that Brian, Mike, and Carl all seem super into the singing on the song. But it just doesn't have that spark good Brian material usually has. Same for basically all his material on KTSA.

[KTSA]

So I know early on in the KTSA sessions, Brian started recording a cover of The Crystals "Little Boy" entitled "Little Girl". And apparently then they (Bruce?) decided that Mike and Brian would add new lyrics and a new melody---the melody apparently based on "Smokey Places" by the Corsairs. Anyways, I have listened to "Little Girl" and "Sunshine' and I don't hear any of that driving track of "Little Girl" in "Sunshine". The chords sound that same but thats it.  I don't hear any other parts of "Little Girl" that correlate to "Sunshine", which has more of a syncopated reggae type feel. Can somebody explain to me exactly what part of "Little Girl" is used in "Sunshine".
 
And yes, I know it sucks that I had to listen to "Sunshine" to be able to ask this question, because that song is horrid. They should have just finished "Little Girl" as is, because Carl sounded great on it, and it was a good track produced by Brian.

[SMiLE]

I have to kinda wonder if it really gave Brian a lot of peace of mind that he finished it. I mean, lets look at the facts. Pre-boxset, he had already released "Heroes & Villains", "Vegetables", "Fall Breaks...", "She's Goin' Bald", "With Me Tonight", "Wind Chimes", "Wonderful", "Whistle In", "Mama Says', "Little Bird", "Our Prayer", "Cabinessence", "Cool Cool Water", and "Surf's Up". That gives quite a lot of insight to the fact, besides "Cabinessence" and "Our Prayer", which apparently were finished without him, he used either SMiLE era ideas in other songs like "Little Bird" and "Cool Cool Water" or outright used the song in a different situation like "Wonderful", "Surf's Up", etc. I think maybe he made peace somewhat with SMiLE after the "Surf's Up" situation in '71, and was content to move his music forward in whatever way he wanted after that. I do agree that until the late-ish '80's he just seemed like he would talk about SMiLE, but kinda with the attitude that it was something that didn't quite work out. After the rumors of the release of it in the late '80's and throughout the '90s and into the 2000's, he seemed a bit more weird about it.

[SMiLE]

But I think Smile is finished if you mean the mythical project that really started tormenting Brian in the 80s.

I might agree, with you, by why do you say that it started tormenting him in the '80s. You think he was somewhat "over it" from like '67 to the end of the '70s? I think I might agree with you on that actually. I mean, I'm sure it wasn't his favorite issue, but I think he accepted what happened with the songs, like "Surf's Up" being the title-track of the '71 album, "Cool Cool Water," etc. I think the constant questions probably did annoy him, if only because he is an artist, and many artists are into having to revisit their old material, no matter how good that material is. On the concert stage is one thing, but having to go into the studio and try to get in the mindset of where you were, especially if you don't want to, probably isn't something many artists wanna do. I think Brian resolved SMiLE with Smiley Smile and (with the help of Carl and Reilly) the release of "Surf's Up".

Just my opinion. I think this may become "the thread", but maybe not.

[Carl and the Passions]

This just in - on "He Come Down", Brian wrote most of it, arranged it, took the top vocal line and played piano & organ.  Film at eleven.

I was wondering about that song. Whenever people talk about what Brian wrote in the early '70's, things like "Mess of Help" and "Marcella" get mentioned, but never "He Come Down". Was he the main songwriter on the track? Like most of the music? Or what parts? Honestly, whenever I think of Brian on Carl and the Passions, I usually don't take this song into account.

Anyways hope to hear some more info on this.

[essence]

... to me the most important thing is the essence of Brian Wilson bleeding through the speakers on those trax... I may not hear his voice as much as I'd like on Funky Pretty, (till the Funky Pretty demos are released by the powers that be), but I can swear to high heaven that his spirit is right there next to me rocking out.  

I dig what you're saying there. When you hear a true Brian Wilson track, regardless of whether he's a lead vocalist or not, songs he produces or helps out on, it just has a special something that I don't hear as much on stuff like much of Imagination, Still Cruisin', his self-titled album or The Beach Boys self-titled album. It seems that the "feeling" in those songs isn't the same as a "committed" Brian work. Which isn't to say there isn't a song (or songs) from those albums that don't have those feeling, but its just not felt in the way you feel it on Pet Sounds or even lesser works like 15 Big Ones or Friends.

I'm sure he's playing piano and maybe organ on He Come Down.  Probably on Mess Of Help and Marcella as well (he's on the AFM sheets, and for cryin' out loud, he WROTE the songs, so probably).  He's on Good Timin' (piano & probably harpsichord), from the '74 sessions.  And he's playing piano and I think Moog on Shortenin' Bread (backing track is from January '78).

I thought I read that for the Light Album version of "Shortenin' Bread", he wasn't there, but they used his earlier version as a basis, hence the credit he got for arranging or whatever.

[Carl and the Passions]

I've tried to find a thread talking about this but I can't. So here it is...is there for sure proof that Brian is on any of the songs on Carl and the Passions, Holland, or the Light Album? Vocally or instrumentally?

Here are the songs he is reportedly on.

Carl and the Passions "So Tough"

• "You Need A Mess of Help To Stand Alone": Vocals, apparently doubles Carl's lead?; probably somewhere in the "she don't know" mix
• "Marcella": Vocals, background?
• "He Come Down": Vocals, background (apparently sounding like his late '70s self, is this undoubtably true though?)

Holland

• "Funky Pretty": Vocals, somewhere in the mix

L.A. Light Album

• "Good Timin'": Piano (apparently from '74), maybe harpsichord?
• "Angel Come Home": Vocals, somewhere (somebody wanna point out where I can hear?)

Now if somebody could, please let me know the info on these albums? Maybe he IS more present. But those are my guesses thus far. Also, how involved was he on Surf's Up? I know he was on "Take A Load Off Your Feet", "Feel Flows", "A Day in the Life of a Tree", "Til I Die", and "Surf's Up", but was he involved in any of the rest?

I like Panda Bear a lot. His vocals are obviously BB influenced. His work in Animal Collective occasionally goes in BB directions too. Honestly, I feel he is one of the few that even comes close to capturing the essence of the BB work. Some other artists try, but I dont feel it.