Carl and Mike's relationship

[Nicko1234]

I'm with Al on that one. How 'bout you, Jude?

When the cheerleaders came out, at first it was a novelty. Good looking ladies kicking their feet up in front of the stage. Then after a couple of tours, it kinda got old. Kinda took away from the Rock & Roll band's performance.  I mean, I like cute young ladies jiggling and bobbing around as much as the next guy, don't get me wrong, but it just turned it into a circus. I was waiting for the next act to come out in the circus.....

I agree with Al that it was right that the cheerleaders went but I'm not sure about Al's comment about Mike, 'being so embittered by that that maybe that's when he began to reinvent the band.' I think the issues between Mike and Al run a lot deeper than cheerleaders.

[Cam Mott]

The group was never heard from again after cheerleaders. Pity.

Mike was only one member, the cheerleaders couldn't have kept happening without others' support. Carl was also very much hands on with the making of Kokomo according to Bruce, an example of how Carl and Mike got along I guess.

[Nicko1234]

There's nothing wrong with Carl's or Al's vocals on SIP - the problem is the material and the production. But I suspect Carl's mind was elsewhere; he came in, punched the clock, did the required work on SIP, but he was already planning to work with Gerry Beckley and Robert Lamm.

I agree. I doubt he was too interested in Beach Boys recordings at this stage.

I'm not sure Carl was involved in the reworkings of the SIP stuff which is why Terry Melcher is clearly audible on Island Fever.

[clack]

I find it amusing that Mike believed that he had a bead on what were "commercial" vocals and music in 1992.

"Hey Bruce, check out this guy Kurt Cobain and his group Nirvana. This whole Seattle grunge thing is really happening!"

[Wirestone]

The group was never heard from again after cheerleaders. Pity.

Mike was only one member, the cheerleaders couldn't have kept happening without others' support. Carl was also very much hands on with the making of Kokomo according to Bruce, an example of how Carl and Mike got along I guess.

Mike was the de facto leader of the band during the 80s to the present. Even if the others had a voice (and Carl certainly oversaw the players for much of the time), it's silly to consider the band an absolute democracy. Very few bands work that way anyway.

As to Carl's supposed hand in Kokomo, I'd expect that's a rewriting of history by Bruce. The only extensive, reported article about the making of the song -- http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,640541,00.html -- doesn't mention Carl a single time.

[Cliff1000uk]

I find it amusing that Mike believed that he had a bead on what were "commercial" vocals and music in 1992.

"Hey Bruce, check out this guy Kurt Cobain and his group Nirvana. This whole Seattle grunge thing is really happening!"

Smells like Teen Spirit (At The Beach)

Load up on girls
Don't be low
It's fun, fun, fun at Kokomo

She's over blonde
Outta reach
Oh no, she goes off to the beach

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen

Chorus:

Good vibration, a gyration, transcendental meditation

Yay

[gfac22]

That was the best post I've seen on this board in a long time.  I really needed the laugh, thanks.

[Cliff1000uk]

No worries-it's not often my love of The BBs and Nirvana meet in a world of angst and palm trees

[SMiLE Brian]

Top five post in board history

I wonder if ML would wear a blonde wig to be "commercial"

[Cam Mott]

The group was never heard from again after cheerleaders. Pity.

Mike was only one member, the cheerleaders couldn't have kept happening without others' support. Carl was also very much hands on with the making of Kokomo according to Bruce, an example of how Carl and Mike got along I guess.

Mike was the de facto leader of the band during the 80s to the present. Even if the others had a voice (and Carl certainly oversaw the players for much of the time), it's silly to consider the band an absolute democracy. Very few bands work that way anyway.

As to Carl's supposed hand in Kokomo, I'd expect that's a rewriting of history by Bruce. The only extensive, reported article about the making of the song -- http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,640541,00.html -- doesn't mention Carl a single time.

I'm pretty sure Carl was the actual touring band leader and musical director through the 70s, 80s, and 90s, except for his short solo stint, up to his inability to do it.

Edit: I'll get back to you on that article. I didn't realize there are more then one page in my initial reaction.

[Mike's Beard]

Top five post in board history

I wonder if ML would wear a blonde wig to be "commercial"

As long as he doesn't shoot himself in an effort to boost sales.

[PaulTMA]

'Love You' was their equivalent of the Probot album

[Nicko1234]

Mike was the de facto leader of the band during the 80s to the present. Even if the others had a voice (and Carl certainly oversaw the players for much of the time), it's silly to consider the band an absolute democracy. Very few bands work that way anyway.

As to Carl's supposed hand in Kokomo, I'd expect that's a rewriting of history by Bruce. The only extensive, reported article about the making of the song -- http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,640541,00.html -- doesn't mention Carl a single time.

Thanks for the link to that article. It amuses me that Al disliked the song so much and yet was forced to sing it himself with BBF&F due to the audience demanding it. It's also curious that he was for changing the setlists but apparently against playing their new single.

I'm not sure I entirely believe Van Dyke Parks' story but it's funny if true. Not sure why he would have agreed to appear on Summer in Paradise if that were the case though.

Carl may well have been hands on when recording the vocals even if he wasn't involved in the music I guess.

[Shady]

I find it amusing that Mike believed that he had a bead on what were "commercial" vocals and music in 1992.

"Hey Bruce, check out this guy Kurt Cobain and his group Nirvana. This whole Seattle grunge thing is really happening!"

Smells like Teen Spirit (At The Beach)

Load up on girls
Don't be low
It's fun, fun, fun at Kokomo

She's over blonde
Outta reach
Oh no, she goes off to the beach

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen

Chorus:

Good vibration, a gyration, transcendental meditation

Yay

Hilarious!

[KittyKat]

That EW article isn't exactly a detailed account of how Kokomo was cut in the studio. It's designed for the article writer's maximum snark. It quotes Jeffrey Foskett, who wasn't there every minute of the sessions. It says that Brian's PR said that Brian would not want to be quoted about it ever, yet Brian has been quoted numerous times since the early '90s that he very much regrets not having been asked to sing on the record (or in any case, if he was asked, Dr. Landy turned it down without telling him).

[Cam Mott]

The group was never heard from again after cheerleaders. Pity.

Mike was only one member, the cheerleaders couldn't have kept happening without others' support. Carl was also very much hands on with the making of Kokomo according to Bruce, an example of how Carl and Mike got along I guess.

Mike was the de facto leader of the band during the 80s to the present. Even if the others had a voice (and Carl certainly oversaw the players for much of the time), it's silly to consider the band an absolute democracy. Very few bands work that way anyway.

As to Carl's supposed hand in Kokomo, I'd expect that's a rewriting of history by Bruce. The only extensive, reported article about the making of the song -- http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,640541,00.html -- doesn't mention Carl a single time.

I'm pretty sure Carl was the actual touring band leader and musical director through the 70s, 80s, and 90s, except for his short solo stint, up to his inability to do it.

Edit: I'll get back to you on that article. I didn't realize there are more then one page in my initial reaction.

I didn't find that article to show anything one way or another about whether Carl did as Bruce, an eye witness, claimed. There is no evidence to dispute Bruce in there.  As I remember Bruce said that there was a version being worked on and then Carl took over and produced a new version of the tracking etc.. Is Carl's voice on there too?

I wonder if c-man can tell us anything about the various sessions for Kokomo?

[Micha]

The group was never heard from again after cheerleaders. Pity.

Mike was only one member, the cheerleaders couldn't have kept happening without others' support. Carl was also very much hands on with the making of Kokomo according to Bruce, an example of how Carl and Mike got along I guess.

Mike was the de facto leader of the band during the 80s to the present. Even if the others had a voice (and Carl certainly oversaw the players for much of the time), it's silly to consider the band an absolute democracy. Very few bands work that way anyway.

As to Carl's supposed hand in Kokomo, I'd expect that's a rewriting of history by Bruce. The only extensive, reported article about the making of the song -- http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,640541,00.html -- doesn't mention Carl a single time.

The article mentions the words "used to go" changed to "wanna go" - Isn't It Time single version, anyone? "all of those things we used to do/wanna do"...

[Nicko1234]

The article mentions the words "used to go" changed to "wanna go" - Isn't It Time single version, anyone? "all of those things we used to do/wanna do"...

I think that was a great change from Mike on Kokomo.

Not so much on Isn't it Time.

[hypehat]

Mike was the de facto leader of the band during the 80s to the present. Even if the others had a voice (and Carl certainly oversaw the players for much of the time), it's silly to consider the band an absolute democracy. Very few bands work that way anyway.

As to Carl's supposed hand in Kokomo, I'd expect that's a rewriting of history by Bruce. The only extensive, reported article about the making of the song -- http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,640541,00.html -- doesn't mention Carl a single time.

Thanks for the link to that article. It amuses me that Al disliked the song so much and yet was forced to sing it himself with BBF&F due to the audience demanding it. It's also curious that he was for changing the setlists but apparently against playing their new single.

I'm not sure I entirely believe Van Dyke Parks' story but it's funny if true. Not sure why he would have agreed to appear on Summer in Paradise if that were the case though.

Carl may well have been hands on when recording the vocals even if he wasn't involved in the music I guess.

Van Dyke has always been there for the group when they needed him. Reckon he asked to sing on Day in A Life Of Tree? Besides, the way session work goes I reckon he'd have considered playing accordion on anything as another days work.

[Lonely Summer]

I find it amusing that Mike believed that he had a bead on what were "commercial" vocals and music in 1992.

"Hey Bruce, check out this guy Kurt Cobain and his group Nirvana. This whole Seattle grunge thing is really happening!"

Smells like Teen Spirit (At The Beach)

Load up on girls
Don't be low
It's fun, fun, fun at Kokomo

She's over blonde
Outta reach
Oh no, she goes off to the beach

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen

Chorus:

Good vibration, a gyration, transcendental meditation

Yay

I love it!

[D409]

Mike was the de facto leader of the band during the 80s to the present. Even if the others had a voice (and Carl certainly oversaw the players for much of the time), it's silly to consider the band an absolute democracy. Very few bands work that way anyway.

As to Carl's supposed hand in Kokomo, I'd expect that's a rewriting of history by Bruce. The only extensive, reported article about the making of the song -- http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,640541,00.html -- doesn't mention Carl a single time.

Thanks for the link to that article. It amuses me that Al disliked the song so much and yet was forced to sing it himself with BBF&F due to the audience demanding it. It's also curious that he was for changing the setlists but apparently against playing their new single.

I'm not sure I entirely believe Van Dyke Parks' story but it's funny if true. Not sure why he would have agreed to appear on Summer in Paradise if that were the case though.

Carl may well have been hands on when recording the vocals even if he wasn't involved in the music I guess.

Excuse me ? Ry Cooder and Jim Keltner are on Kokomo ? Really ?

[adamghost]

I'm late chiming in here, but I have to agree with those who say the use of the word "commercial" as a qualitative exercise in an interview is actually a significant indicator of where Mike's head at, and pointing it out isn't obsessing at all.  And before all of Mike's defenders jump all over me, look:  credit the guy for saying what he thinks even when it isn't "cool" to do so.  Because that's exactly what he's doing here.

Lots of bands obsess PRIVATELY over whether their stuff is commercially viable.  But I once had a friend of mine -- a friend of mine who sold a LOT of records (many more than the BBs) in the time frame we're talking about -- explain it thusly:  "you want to forget about selling records.  Yes, somewhere over in the corner of your mind you want to be thinking 'I want to be a rock star and sell a million records' but you don't focus on that."  And that was the prevailing attitude at the time and one which led this particular fellow to success.

You just didn't SAY that in an interview, because to say that meant you valued commercial success over artistic success or "feel".  It puts you squarely in a certain kind of camp and ironically, in 1992, to say something like that puts you out of the mainstream.  So it betrays a lack of perspective and understanding of the true commercial landscape on Mike's part.  Like many of Mike's statements over the years, he boldly says things that, while you can defend them on their merits if you choose to, make him sound out of touch and, occasionally, a bit douchey.  It's kind of a "tin ear" effect.  Again, if you are a Mike defender, credit the man for not giving a sh*t and saying what he thinks and leaving it at that.

One more thought.  I've had occasion at least once to see the inner workings of bands that had enjoyed success and in many cases, these guys are the LEAST able to have perspective on what they're doing and how they're perceived.  A few people have said here something along the lines of "well X has had way more success than you'll ever have so why should they care?"  Well, that's exactly the point...once you have achieved a degree of success you will always find a certain number of people who will worship that success and want to be around it.  So if you are that successful person, you have the ability if you so choose to never engage with anyone who doesn't agree with you or can offer you real-world perspective...because you can dismiss them as losers (or, if you like, less successful than you) and there will be a crowd of people who will always give you the thumbs up through thick and thin.  BUT...over time, this has consequences, because it isolates you from corrective feedback and keeps you out of touch with reality, and that's bad for business.  So that's the folly of the whole "success for success' sake" argument.  Commercialism is a random and fickle horse to ride.  There are more enduring values over time that are better keys to long-term success -- finding a deeper meaning and connection wtih your core audience.  The Beach Boys HAVE achieved that -- but it's precisely because of the complimentary tension between Mike's commercialism and the Wilson "artism".   Focus on the former solely, and you lose the magic.

[Nicko1234]

I'm late chiming in here, but I have to agree with those who say the use of the word "commercial" as a qualitative exercise in an interview is actually a significant indicator of where Mike's head at, and pointing it out isn't obsessing at all.  And before all of Mike's defenders jump all over me, look:  credit the guy for saying what he thinks even when it isn't "cool" to do so.  Because that's exactly what he's doing here.

I completely agree with you that pointing it out isn't obsessing about it. But when it is pointed out repeatedly for one page of a thread then it can get a bit much.  It was threatening to make this thread identical to many others after all.

Obviously Mike wants success. He has said it many times (including in the Catch a Wave book) and obviously was way off goose at the time because Summer in Paradise died a death.

I agree that Mike can seem like a berk in interviews. The Beach Boys are probably some of the worst interviewees on the planet in truth.

[Cam Mott]

On the other hand, Brian is/always has been also obsessed/concerned with wanting to be commercial and he has said it publically. Neither one considers commercial a dirty word, that commercial is a dirty word is a figment of our own imaginations/sensibilities. They have both always wanted to be artfully commercial.

[Amanda Hart]

One more thought.  I've had occasion at least once to see the inner workings of bands that had enjoyed success and in many cases, these guys are the LEAST able to have perspective on what they're doing and how they're perceived.  A few people have said here something along the lines of "well X has had way more success than you'll ever have so why should they care?"  Well, that's exactly the point...once you have achieved a degree of success you will always find a certain number of people who will worship that success and want to be around it.  So if you are that successful person, you have the ability if you so choose to never engage with anyone who doesn't agree with you or can offer you real-world perspective...because you can dismiss them as losers (or, if you like, less successful than you) and there will be a crowd of people who will always give you the thumbs up through thick and thin.  BUT...over time, this has consequences, because it isolates you from corrective feedback and keeps you out of touch with reality, and that's bad for business.  So that's the folly of the whole "success for success' sake" argument.  Commercialism is a random and fickle horse to ride.  There are more enduring values over time that are better keys to long-term success -- finding a deeper meaning and connection wtih your core audience.  The Beach Boys HAVE achieved that -- but it's precisely because of the complimentary tension between Mike's commercialism and the Wilson "artism".   Focus on the former solely, and you lose the magic.

This was the perfect summary of, what I think, are the biggest problems in the band since the 1980s. It's not just that there was a shift in focus from art to commercialism, but that because of the band's popular revival, they (all of them, not just Mike) were able to justify lazy creative decisions because they didn't have anyone around them to tell them they needed to put in more effort.