Carl and Mike's relationship

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I think you forgot a few fads and circumstances they also exploited?/used to their advantage in the earlier hitmaking part of their career.

Such as?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

The word fluke implies an accident though.

It can but it is all wrapped up in chance. This is where language is tricky. Fluke can imply accident but it can also imply luck and luck and accidents are frequently on opposite sides of the spectrum (no one says, "It's really lucky you had that accident."). So while fluke can mean accident, it doesn't always, which is why "accident" is typically one of several definitions for the term.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Mike Love deserves tremendous credit for recognizing the power of the formula - yes, THAT formula - and realizing that the formula will prevail no matter what era, meaning that it will never be a fluke.

I was fortunate to live through the later (post 1974) hits, so, after awhile, the shock value wears off and you realize the genius of Brian's "sound" and why Mike will ALWAYS push for it, no matter what the popular genre is. Let me explain.

It's 1974, and I'm listening to The New York Dolls, Blue Oyster Cult, Kiss, Slade, and Sparks, and, guess what group comes into my life and wipes out (pun intended) those aforementioned artists? The Beach Boys and Endless Summer. How did that happen?

It's 1978, and my radio is full of disco music and some cutting stuff like Blondie, The Police, and The Rolling Stones (Miss You). And, all of a sudden, I turn the dial and hear, "Sum, sum, summer, well it's almost summer..." A Top 40 hit!

It's 1981, MTV is just taking off, there's all kind of weird videos, synthesizers, "Bette Davis Eyes" and "Jessie's Girl", drugs are everywhere....and two Top 20 hits, "The Beach Boys Medley" and 'Come Go With Me". Go figure....

I could go on. There's "Good Timin", "Getcha Back", "Wipe Out", and 'Kokomo". What does it all mean?

This is basically what Mike Love is saying. It doesn't matter what music is popular at the time. The "right" Beach Boys' song is gonna chart. Oh, there were great Beach Boys' songs that didnt; history has shown that. But, that won't stop Mike. I think that's why Mike wanted to keep recording and releasing music. I also think that's why he wanted to keep recording with Brian and was so frustrated when he wasn't.

Mike Love is a lot like Brian Wilson in this area. Mike Love has no idea what music is popular today. He probably hates the music of today and he probably listens exclusively to oldies stations. BUT THAT DOESN'T MATTER TO HIM. He knows the power of the Beach Boys formula and he STILL believes in it. He always will. Yeah, there hasn't been a Beach Boys' hit single since "Kokomo", and that's been 25 years now. But, again, they (whoever "they" are) could release just the right Beach Boys' song tomorrow and it could be a hit single. And, it won't be a fluke. It will be because human beings love to listen to The Beach Boys' sound. They just love it! And Mike Love knows that better than anybody, and he likes to tell ya that, too.

[Cam Mott]

I think you forgot a few fads and circumstances they also exploited?/used to their advantage in the earlier hitmaking part of their career.

Such as?

Car culture, motorbikes, skateboarding, Santa Claus, and Psychedelia would be my examples.

[Nicko1234]

But the thing with Mike and his sax playing persona is that they were putting forth both an image and an assumption for those watching that Mike really was playing those sax solos, which was known by those with a more passionate interest in the band and their music to be not only misleading but completely false, yet the image someone wanted to project to those less-invested fans was that besides being the "frontman", the guy could also play one helluva a sax solo...it's the kind of thing that could have been used against people trying to talk up how great this band was/is and how we should listen to the music apart from any image and find/enjoy the greatness therein, only to see the most widely-seen image of this band for a period of time featuring a misrepresentation of the music and the musicians seemingly based on creating a persona that has nothing at all to do with the band, the music, or much else beyond vanity and/or ego.

Seriously I think that is taking things a bit far. Sure Mike probably had the prop due to his ego in the Kokomo video (In the Problem Child video it was necessary) but I really don't think it has any big meaning. I really don't think people watching would think deeply about whether Mike was actually playing on the record (or Bruce was playing bass or Stamos percussion etc.). I doubt anyone could have cared less.

[Nicko1234]

It can but it is all wrapped up in chance. This is where language is tricky. Fluke can imply accident but it can also imply luck and luck and accidents are frequently on opposite sides of the spectrum (no one says, "It's really lucky you had that accident."). So while fluke can mean accident, it doesn't always, which is why "accident" is typically one of several definitions for the term.

The point is that no lead singer of a band would say, 'our biggest hit was a fluke'. Something you seem not to want to acknowledge. 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I think you forgot a few fads and circumstances they also exploited?/used to their advantage in the earlier hitmaking part of their career.

Such as?

Car culture, motorbikes, skateboarding, Santa Claus, and Psychedelia would be my examples.

They didn't write any songs about psychedelia as far as I know. But you are sort of correct about car culture, in a way although the car song has pretty much always been a more of an ongoing topic of American pop music rather than a fad. I also wouldn't call Santa Claus a fad.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

It can but it is all wrapped up in chance. This is where language is tricky. Fluke can imply accident but it can also imply luck and luck and accidents are frequently on opposite sides of the spectrum (no one says, "It's really lucky you had that accident."). So while fluke can mean accident, it doesn't always, which is why "accident" is typically one of several definitions for the term.

The point is that no lead singer of a band would say, 'our biggest hit was a fluke'. Something you seem not to want to acknowledge. 

Well, I'm not sure what your point is.

[SMiLE Brian]

Great post Sheriff!

But was Kokomo really the BBs sound?

Mike doesn't use the "nasal voice" and the harmonies lack the hallmarks of BW's work.

The instruments are totally different from Brian's classic WC sound and quirkier later works.
 
The BBs are guesting on a song (beside Mike's input) and it sounds like it.

[Please delete my account]

It can but it is all wrapped up in chance. This is where language is tricky. Fluke can imply accident but it can also imply luck and luck and accidents are frequently on opposite sides of the spectrum (no one says, "It's really lucky you had that accident."). So while fluke can mean accident, it doesn't always, which is why "accident" is typically one of several definitions for the term.

The point is that no lead singer of a band would say, 'our biggest hit was a fluke'. Something you seem not to want to acknowledge. 

http://www.contactmusic.com/news/gossips-biggest-hit-a-fluke_1203640

[Nicko1234]

Well, I'm not sure what your point is.

Sorry, I wasn't being entirely serious.

My point was that earlier in the thread I think you said that Mike maybe couldn't admit that Kokomo was a fluke. The truth is I doubt many artists at all would have been able to admit that even if had been clear cut (and obviously I don't think fluke is the right word). It isn't realistic to think that Mike would just say to himself, 'Kokomo was a fluke and it will never happen again'.

 

[Nicko1234]

http://www.contactmusic.com/news/gossips-biggest-hit-a-fluke_1203640

Touche.  

I think the difference being that she would like to turn people's attentions away from that song and onto the rest of the output.

I change my comment to...'Only 1% of lead singers...'  

[Cam Mott]

I think you forgot a few fads and circumstances they also exploited?/used to their advantage in the earlier hitmaking part of their career.

Such as?

Car culture, motorbikes, skateboarding, Santa Claus, and Psychedelia would be my examples.

They didn't write any songs about psychedelia as far as I know. But you are sort of correct about car culture, in a way although the car song has pretty much always been a more of an ongoing topic of American pop music rather than a fad. I also wouldn't call Santa Claus a fad.

OK, forget fad, they took advantage of popular cultural conditions in ways like you attribute to Kokomo's popularity. I would argue there was a very much more robust car culture in the 60s [boomers of driver age] that they exploited. They timed their Christmas releases to take full advantage of a popular cultural condition, and so forth. I see GV as Brian's attempt to capitalize on the growing psychedelic popular culture scene.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Well, I'm not sure what your point is.

Sorry, I wasn't being entirely serious.

My point was that earlier in the thread I think you said that Mike maybe couldn't admit that Kokomo was a fluke. The truth is I doubt many artists at all would have been able to admit that even if had been clear cut (and obviously I don't think fluke is the right word). It isn't realistic to think that Mike would just say to himself, 'Kokomo was a fluke and it will never happen again'.

 

Maybe. I don't know. Randy Newman didn't follow up "Short People" with some satire that focused on the overweight. And Neil Young went in the opposite direction when he scored with, say, "Heart of Gold." However, I will say that Shirley Ellis did follow "The Name Game" with "The Clapping Song" to pretty good success so I guess Mike has some precedence.

[Nicko1234]

Mike Love deserves tremendous credit for recognizing the power of the formula - yes, THAT formula - and realizing that the formula will prevail no matter what era, meaning that it will never be a fluke.

I was fortunate to live through the later (post 1974) hits, so, after awhile, the shock value wears off and you realize the genius of Brian's "sound" and why Mike will ALWAYS push for it, no matter what the popular genre is. Let me explain.

It's 1974, and I'm listening to The New York Dolls, Blue Oyster Cult, Kiss, Slade, and Sparks, and, guess what group comes into my life and wipes out (pun intended) those aforementioned artists? The Beach Boys and Endless Summer. How did that happen?

It's 1978, and my radio is full of disco music and some cutting stuff like Blondie, The Police, and The Rolling Stones (Miss You). And, all of a sudden, I turn the dial and hear, "Sum, sum, summer, well it's almost summer..." A Top 40 hit!

It's 1981, MTV is just taking off, there's all kind of weird videos, synthesizers, "Bette Davis Eyes" and "Jessie's Girl", drugs are everywhere....and two Top 20 hits, "The Beach Boys Medley" and 'Come Go With Me". Go figure....

I could go on. There's "Good Timin", "Getcha Back", "Wipe Out", and 'Kokomo". What does it all mean?

This is basically what Mike Love is saying. It doesn't matter what music is popular at the time. The "right" Beach Boys' song is gonna chart. Oh, there were great Beach Boys' songs that didnt; history has shown that. But, that won't stop Mike. I think that's why Mike wanted to keep recording and releasing music. I also think that's why he wanted to keep recording with Brian and was so frustrated when he wasn't.

Mike Love is a lot like Brian Wilson in this area. Mike Love has no idea what music is popular today. He probably hates the music of today and he probably listens exclusively to oldies stations. BUT THAT DOESN'T MATTER TO HIM. He knows the power of the Beach Boys formula and he STILL believes in it. He always will. Yeah, there hasn't been a Beach Boys' hit single since "Kokomo", and that's been 25 years now. But, again, they (whoever "they" are) could release just the right Beach Boys' song tomorrow and it could be a hit single. And, it won't be a fluke. It will be because human beings love to listen to The Beach Boys' sound. They just love it! And Mike Love knows that better than anybody, and he likes to tell ya that, too.

This is a great post.

I would add Lady Lynda to the list. That is maybe the most inexplicable Beach Boys hit of all and I think Al's reasoning for its success was that people were just desperate to hear anything like Brian's music.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I think you forgot a few fads and circumstances they also exploited?/used to their advantage in the earlier hitmaking part of their career.

Such as?

Car culture, motorbikes, skateboarding, Santa Claus, and Psychedelia would be my examples.

They didn't write any songs about psychedelia as far as I know. But you are sort of correct about car culture, in a way although the car song has pretty much always been a more of an ongoing topic of American pop music rather than a fad. I also wouldn't call Santa Claus a fad.

OK, forget fad, they took advantage of popular cultural conditions in ways like you attribute to Kokomo's popularity. I would argue there was a very much more robust car culture in the 60s [boomers of driver age] that they exploited. They timed their Christmas releases to take full advantage of a popular cultural condition, and so forth. I see GV as Brian's attempt to capitalize on the growing psychedelic popular culture scene.

Excuse me, but I'm not talking about anyone taking advantage of or exploiting a popular cultural condition. I am saying that Kokomo came out at a time when the island was a topic in songs that large audiences enjoyed. "Islands" are not a popular cultural condition just as psychedelia is not a topic in a song. Your parallels and connections are repeatedly faulty.

There was a "robust car culture" all throughout the 20th Century in the United States, which is why car songs have been such a significant part of music in general, but rock and country especially. But you might as well be arguing that their love songs exploited the popular cultural condition of being in love.

[Nicko1234]

Maybe. I don't know. Randy Newman didn't follow up "Short People" with some satire that focusing on the overweight. And Neil Young went in the opposite direction when he scored with, say, "Heart of Gold." However, I will say that Shirley Ellis did follow "The Name Game" with "The Clapping Song" to pretty good success so I guess Mike has some precedence.

Well, that's a different matter altogether. I certainly wouldn't say that all singers after having a hit then try to record a replica. But I don't think that has much to do with the hit being a fluke or not.

The Beach Boys situation is different to most other artists anyway. Obviously Mike takes a lot of criticism for rehashing the fun in the sun theme and I agree many of his lyrics in the wilderness era are dire (some of his solo stuff is ok though) but the public played a big part in that.

The Beach Boys obviously released stacks of singles in the late 60s and early 70s but their biggest hit was with a surfing song with Do It Again (as it was a massive hit overseas as well as hitting the top 20).

Then all of their biggest original singles in the wilderness era are retro things. It's OK, Almost Summer, Getcha Back, Kokomo etc. Nothing else really got a look in. When you consider that and the success of all of the compilations it is not surprising that they stuck to the formula really.

[Wirestone]

Great post Sheriff!

But was Kokomo really the BBs sound?

Mike doesn't use the "nasal voice" and the harmonies lack the hallmarks of BW's work.

The instruments are totally different from Brian's classic WC sound and quirkier later works.
 
The BBs are guesting on a song (beside Mike's input) and it sounds like it.

I've always wondered about this . The harmonies on Kokomo are oddly thin. And no falsetto! WTF?

[SMiLE Brian]

Great post Sheriff!

But was Kokomo really the BBs sound?

Mike doesn't use the "nasal voice" and the harmonies lack the hallmarks of BW's work.

The instruments are totally different from Brian's classic WC sound and quirkier later works.
 
The BBs are guesting on a song (beside Mike's input) and it sounds like it.

I've always wondered about this . The harmonies on Kokomo are oddly thin. And no falsetto! WTF?

I can hear a late 1980s Brian wailing on the top of the harmony stack in my head.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Maybe. I don't know. Randy Newman didn't follow up "Short People" with some satire that focusing on the overweight. And Neil Young went in the opposite direction when he scored with, say, "Heart of Gold." However, I will say that Shirley Ellis did follow "The Name Game" with "The Clapping Song" to pretty good success so I guess Mike has some precedence.

Well, that's a different matter altogether. I certainly wouldn't say that all singers after having a hit then try to record a replica. But I don't think that has much to do with the hit being a fluke or not.

The Beach Boys situation is different to most other artists anyway. Obviously Mike takes a lot of criticism for rehashing the fun in the sun theme and I agree many of his lyrics in the wilderness era are dire (some of his solo stuff is ok though) but the public played a big part in that.

The Beach Boys obviously released stacks of singles in the late 60 and early 70s but there biggest hit was with a surfing song with Do It Again (as it was a massive hit overseas as well as hitting the top 20).

Then all of their biggest original singles in the wilderness era are retro things. It's OK, Almost Summer, Getcha Back, Kokomo etc. Nothing else really got a look in. When you consider that and the success of all of the compilations it is not surprising that they stuck to the formula really.

Yeah, I agree with a lot of that. I've said this before that the public in the US mostly considered The Beach Boys a novelty act and the things that broke out of the novelty simply didn't get as much attention. The beach thing never really broke in England so they didn't have the same hang up there.

[Nicko1234]

I can hear a late 1980s Brian wailing on the top of the harmony stack in my head.

If other fans do that then I can understand why so many hate it. 

[guitarfool2002]

But the thing with Mike and his sax playing persona is that they were putting forth both an image and an assumption for those watching that Mike really was playing those sax solos, which was known by those with a more passionate interest in the band and their music to be not only misleading but completely false, yet the image someone wanted to project to those less-invested fans was that besides being the "frontman", the guy could also play one helluva a sax solo...it's the kind of thing that could have been used against people trying to talk up how great this band was/is and how we should listen to the music apart from any image and find/enjoy the greatness therein, only to see the most widely-seen image of this band for a period of time featuring a misrepresentation of the music and the musicians seemingly based on creating a persona that has nothing at all to do with the band, the music, or much else beyond vanity and/or ego.

Seriously I think that is taking things a bit far. Sure Mike probably had the prop due to his ego in the Kokomo video (In the Problem Child video it was necessary) but I really don't think it has any big meaning. I really don't think people watching would think deeply about whether Mike was actually playing on the record (or Bruce was playing bass or Stamos percussion etc.). I doubt anyone could have cared less.

If no one cared than why not just give him a guitar to f*** around with in the videos so he's "doing something" instrumentally apart from acting as the frontman, clowning around on stage, acting as the emcee, etc.?

For the record, too, if some folks here can't see the difference between how Good Vibrations sounded on the top 40 radio stations in fall 1966 and the way Kokomo sounded on FM and on MTV in the late 80's...Houston, we have a problem. And I'm thinking no amount of convincing or arguing or debating will ever sway that kind of opinion.

I mean, seriously, defending Mike and his actions or career decisions because you're a fan is one thing, but rewriting history and the historical context of popular music to somehow equate a lame cover of Wipe Out or even Kokomo and the era in which they were released *in any way* to Good Vibrations in 1966 or even the entire years of 1963-64 when the music of the Beach Boys was both subliminally and often blatantly creating a mythology around the California lifestyle seems a bit extreme if not incorrect.

[guitarfool2002]

Maybe. I don't know. Randy Newman didn't follow up "Short People" with some satire that focusing on the overweight. And Neil Young went in the opposite direction when he scored with, say, "Heart of Gold." However, I will say that Shirley Ellis did follow "The Name Game" with "The Clapping Song" to pretty good success so I guess Mike has some precedence.

Well, that's a different matter altogether. I certainly wouldn't say that all singers after having a hit then try to record a replica. But I don't think that has much to do with the hit being a fluke or not.

The Beach Boys situation is different to most other artists anyway. Obviously Mike takes a lot of criticism for rehashing the fun in the sun theme and I agree many of his lyrics in the wilderness era are dire (some of his solo stuff is ok though) but the public played a big part in that.

The Beach Boys obviously released stacks of singles in the late 60 and early 70s but there biggest hit was with a surfing song with Do It Again (as it was a massive hit overseas as well as hitting the top 20).

Then all of their biggest original singles in the wilderness era are retro things. It's OK, Almost Summer, Getcha Back, Kokomo etc. Nothing else really got a look in. When you consider that and the success of all of the compilations it is not surprising that they stuck to the formula really.

Yeah, I agree with a lot of that. I've said this before that the public in the US mostly considered The Beach Boys a novelty act and the things that broke out of the novelty simply didn't get as much attention. The beach thing never really broke in England so they didn't have the same hang up there.

I'd argue there was no pop act until 1966 that wasn't considered a fad or a novelty until 1966, including The Beatles, Elvis, and yes, The Beach Boys, as they were still put into the category of "teen" music when it came to selling and marketing the records. So to peg that onto the Beach Boys would mean adding them to a long list of acts we now consider "serious" musicians, including the sacred cows like The Byrds, Beatles, Stones, etc.

Once again, the context within the history of this exact time period is crucial, and around 65 going into 66 there was a definite change in the way this "teen" music was being evaluated, appreciated, and taken as an influence by people other than the teenage fan base the execs and so-called experts in the media and elsewhere were thinking. The whole Inside Pop project keyed in on this, only a year late to the party which is usually how the media works anyway.

The publications which were being read by these "teens" supposedly buying into the novelty of the Beach Boys and their peers like the Stones had already begun to write about them on a level somewhat greater than the usual gushing fan drivel like "What do the Byrds REALLY like in a girlfriend?" type articles. And if there is a case of any article written in 1965 or 1966 that highlights the Beach Boys and in some way emphasizes anything about surf or car culture apart from a sentence or two, I'm unaware of it. In fact - credit of course to Derek Taylor - such articles about the Beach Boys more often keyed in on the music, even more specifically how Brian was creating the music and topics centered around that.

The surf and car themes were totally gone from the band's current music after 1964, at least until "Do It Again", so how did this band still manage to chart a handful of top-10 singles going into 1967, having *nothing* to do with surfing or cars, if they were considered just a fad or a novelty act centered around cars and surf?

Novelty? Sure, surfing and cars sold records in the millions from 62-64. So did being British or acting and looking British for any young musician in the wake of the first wave of Beatlemania. But to suggest that a novelty was the Beach Boys identity in 1965-66-67 apart from doing a car medley at the live shows? I just don't agree as much with the novelty tag in light of the historical evidence we can read in publications from that time. Either that, or we go the corporate route and link anything "pop" into the "teen" category, where it wasn't considered having much substance by those execs charged with selling them, and was considered a novelty sure not to last more than the trend would allow.

[Nicko1234]

If no one cared than why not just give him a guitar to f*** around with in the videos so he's "doing something" instrumentally apart from acting as the frontman, clowning around on stage, acting as the emcee, etc.?

Are you feeling ok?

I've already said that Mike probably had the saxophone due to his ego. But your opinion seems to be that The Beach Boys music would have been taken more seriously if only Mike hadn't appeared in a video holding that instrument. Not a chance imo. They had already released Wipeout by this point and Brian was being humiliated by being forced to appear on things like Dick Clark's Primetime while probably drugged up.

[guitarfool2002]

If no one cared than why not just give him a guitar to f*** around with in the videos so he's "doing something" instrumentally apart from acting as the frontman, clowning around on stage, acting as the emcee, etc.?

Are you feeling ok?

I've already said that Mike probably had the saxophone due to his ego. But your opinion seems to be that The Beach Boys music would have been taken more seriously if only Mike hadn't appeared in a video holding that instrument. Not a chance imo. They had already released Wipeout by this point and Brian was being humiliated by being forced to appear on things like Dick Clark's Primetime while probably drugged up.

Feeling just fine. And that's not my opinion, nor is it the bigger issue overall. It's a symbolic thing. My opinion of the reasons for Beach Boys music being taken seriously or not goes far beyond seeing Mike pretending to play a sax in a video.

Or to further dance around that bigger issue, if someone were to ask you personally for an introduction to the band's music through a playlist or a compilation/mix CD or something similar with songs you felt were a good representation of the band and its musical legacy, exactly how many songs from the Kokomo-Summer In Paradise-Still Cruisin' era would you add to that playlist? And would you go heavy on those 80's-90's era songs at the front end of such a collection? Or if they wanted a few video links which best represented the band, on your recommendation as a fan passing it down to someone less knowledgeable but interested in hearing what makes so many people think this band is great, would you link to the "Baywatch" appearance or the Kokomo video at the top of that recommended viewing list?

There is a common thread at work here which if it's not obvious already, it was to some like me who watched and listened and often cringed (or said 'what the hell is this?') as this stuff happened in real time from the 80's onward. And if some fans were into it, more power to 'ya! It's all personal taste, naturally, and the band obviously had reasons for doing what they did at that time.