Carl and Mike's relationship

[SMiLE Brian]

Mike had good reason to be proud of the success of the song, but his crass and rude way in taking credit for it rubbed a lot of BBs fans the wrong way. Even today in interviews he can't stop bragging how he "outdid" Brian with the song.

[Cabinessenceking]

"Night was so young" was a deep artistic song, same with "my Diane"

While I love "The Night Was So Young"; it's one of my favorite Love You songs, and I like "My Diane" very much; it's one of the best M.I.U. songs though I do think it is slightly overrated....I don't think of them as complex, deep, artistic cuts, but more simplistic verse/chorus/verse type love songs - not that those songs can't be arty....I'm thinking more of songs like "Time To Get Alone", "Til I Die", This Whole World", "Day In The Life Of A Tree", heck I might even throw in "A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone". And those Pacific Ocean Blue songs. I bought that album when it came out in 1977, and for some reason, many times when I listen to that album, I think of Brian. And I would think, gee Brian, didn't that wake you up, didn't that motivate you, didn't that show you the possibilities, you know, just a little friendly brother-to-brother competition. Just my opinion.

if you're looking for deep, artistic cut from Love You I would say Let's Put Our Hearts Together. He really means it when he sings that one (badly). Like it or not, that is as close as Brian got to bleeding on tape in the post-15BO years.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Well, for one, we're not talking about A/C chart numbers. Kokomo went to #1 in the Billboard Chart where Still Cruisin reached #93. Apart from Rock and Roll Music which was also somewhat of a fluke hit, riding the coattails of Endless Summer and a renewed Beach Boys mania, the boys hadn't had a top 10 hit in the States in over 20 years, let alone a number one, which is significantly more difficult to achieve than a #26, a chart position they managed to beat 7 times in the years since Good Vibrations. Had Kokomo reached #26 I wouldn't have called it a fluke success - it wouldn't have been out of the ordinary at all.

Kokomo came at a very lucky time - it was right at the time of about five years or so in the mid to late 80s when the baby boomers were nostalgic for the 60s (i.e. their own youth which they were just beginning to realize was gone) - thus, the era saw massive hits by people who hadn't had massive hits like that in years - (Paul Simon's Graceland, George Harrison's "Got My Mind Set On You" [#1 - 1987], Neil Young's "Rockin' in the Free World" (#2 - 1989), Roy Orbison's "You Got It" (#9 - 1989), etc.). On top of that, it was also a huge time for that kind of song due to the rise in popularity of "island"-theme music ("Hands Up", "Montego Bay", "Hot Hot Hot", "Conga"). Kokomo kind of occupied the space where these two colliding sensations met. And, then, to solidify things it was part of a soundtrack to a box office smash which itself cashed in on what was then a popular trend of island-themed music. The soundtrack produced a few big hits (Don't Worry, Be Happy - anyone???).

I don't think either Rock and Roll Music or Kokomo were a fluke exactly.

Rock and Roll Music was a hit because the Brian is Back campaign was a stroke of genius in terms of publicity. I think the song is crap but it certainly wasn't a fluke.

With Kokomo The Beach Boys had clearly realized that the idea of doing duets and movie soundtracks was their best chance of chart success (hence Wipeout also being a big hit). Nothing accidental about that. Kokomo is a much catchier song than Chasing the Sky, Happy Endings, Still Cruisin' etc. and it was in a bigger movie. The soundtrack idea was a good one commercially and there was always the possibility that one movie they recorded a song for would be a box office success.

Anyway, there is no way that you can expect the singer and co-writer of the song to say, 'Our biggest hit was a complete stroke of luck'. Not realistic at all.

When I say fluke though this is essentially what I mean. These songs would have unlikely been the hits they were had it not been for a bunch of external factors that didn't exist for their other hits.

[pixletwin]

I find it amusing that Mike believed that he had a bead on what were "commercial" vocals and music in 1992.

"Hey Bruce, check out this guy Kurt Cobain and his group Nirvana. This whole Seattle grunge thing is really happening!"

Smells like Teen Spirit (At The Beach)

Load up on girls
Don't be low
It's fun, fun, fun at Kokomo

She's over blonde
Outta reach
Oh no, she goes off to the beach

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen

Chorus:

Good vibration, a gyration, transcendental meditation

Yay

Pure GOLD. 

[Cam Mott]

So they made Kokomo to be right for its time just like they had with their early hits? Sounds like the Boys continued Brian's brilliance for the same thing.

[Jim V.]

Rock and Roll Music was a hit because the Brian is Back campaign was a stroke of genius in terms of publicity. I think the song is crap but it certainly wasn't a fluke.

I still don't understand why "It's OK" wasn't the first single for 15 Big Ones. It is a much better song than "Rock And Roll Music" and also would've represented the 1970s Beach Boys much better. It reminds one of their early stuff but it definitely was more up-to-date than stuff like "Kona Coast" or "California Calling".

[Nicko1234]

When I say fluke though this is essentially what I mean. These songs would have unlikely been the hits they were had it not been for a bunch of external factors that didn't exist for their other hits.

Absolutely. But if you think there was any possibility that Mike would state in an interview, 'Kokomo was a hit due to external factors' then I think you were dreaming.  

[Nicko1234]

Mike had good reason to be proud of the success of the song, but his crass and rude way in taking credit for it rubbed a lot of BBs fans the wrong way. Even today in interviews he can't stop bragging how he "outdid" Brian with the song.

I haven't seen any recent interviews where he has said that...

I do think that one of the really unfortunate things that happened during the Landy era was that it became, 'Brian versus The Beach Boys' though. Some of the things that Mike said certainly sound too harsh and aggressive and that goes for some of the things Brian continued to say until a few years ago about his band being better singers than The Beach Boys as well.

[Nicko1234]

if you're looking for deep, artistic cut from Love You I would say Let's Put Our Hearts Together. He really means it when he sings that one (badly). Like it or not, that is as close as Brian got to bleeding on tape in the post-15BO years.

Maybe. The fact that Brian was writing songs for Debbie Keil and Diane muddies the water a bit though.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

So they made Kokomo to be right for its time just like they had with their early hits?

No, that's not what I said at all. I suggest you re-read what I wrote.

[Nicko1234]

I still don't understand why "It's OK" wasn't the first single for 15 Big Ones. It is a much better song than "Rock And Roll Music" and also would've represented the 1970s Beach Boys much better. It reminds one of their early stuff but it definitely was more up-to-date than stuff like "Kona Coast" or "California Calling".

Indeed. It's a real shame as It's OK probably would have gone top ten as well.

If the group had credited the album as 'Produced by Brian Wilson' but actually not let him do all of the work (which you could say happens nowadays) then they obviously had enough songs to make an album from originals.

[Nicko1234]

No, that's not what I said at all. I suggest you re-read what I wrote.

You did say that 'island-themed' songs were popular at the time and Kokomo obviously fits in with that.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

No, that's not what I said at all. I suggest you re-read what I wrote.

You did say that 'island-themed' songs were popular at the time and Kokomo obviously fits in with that.

Yes, but Cam seems to think that I am criticizing the band for making Kokomo or criticizing the song or criticizing why they made the song or criticizing the fact that they cashed in on a fad, or something along those lines when I'm merely explaining one of the reasons why it was a hit and I place an emphasis on "one of the reasons" since there were many factors that I mentioned (the soundtrack to a film, 60s nostalgia, being two other major examples which has nothing to do with The Beach Boys's earlier hits, but those points were of course entirely ignored).

I will say though that the Beach Boys early hits rarely cashed in on fads in the way that Kokomo did. Yes, surfing was a big sensation in Califorina but I would suggest that the Beach Boys were more responsible for taking part in creating the fad of California culture in the early 60s than they were following it. And at the point that the Beach Boys came dangerously close to becoming a novelty act, they changed course. So, even the premise I disagree with.

[Cam Mott]

I think you forgot a few fads and circumstances they also exploited?/used to their advantage in the earlier hitmaking part of their career.

I read what you said, understood, and spoke to it. We just don't agree I guess.

[guitarfool2002]

Overlap from another thread...The lack of any chart, MTV, or popular success with any of the follow-ups to Kokomo might show that the record's success - as musically catchy as it was and is - was in fact more of a fluke than a pattern of success that was either seen in the years just before or immediately after Kokomo.

What also stays with me is the image of Mike being shown playing a sax solo in the videos for Kokomo, Problem Child, and perhaps more I don't know or can't remember. At what point did it become important to either his or the band's image to prominently feature him playing sax in those videos?

Being a frontman, MC, or showman is one thing, but why put the image out there of Mike playing these sax solos if not for vanity, ego, or some other reason I'm just not understanding in the history of the band?

[Cam Mott]

Overlap from another thread...The lack of any chart, MTV, or popular success with any of the follow-ups to Kokomo might show that the record's success - as musically catchy as it was and is - was in fact more of a fluke than a pattern of success that was either seen in the years just before or immediately after Kokomo.

What also stays with me is the image of Mike being shown playing a sax solo in the videos for Kokomo, Problem Child, and perhaps more I don't know or can't remember. At what point did it become important to either his or the band's image to prominently feature him playing sax in those videos?

Being a frontman, MC, or showman is one thing, but why put the image out there of Mike playing these sax solos if not for vanity, ego, or some other reason I'm just not understanding in the history of the band?

No more of a fluke than the singles that didn't hit amongst the earlier hits though I'm thinking.

I'm going to guess direction from the director.

[Nicko1234]

Overlap from another thread...The lack of any chart, MTV, or popular success with any of the follow-ups to Kokomo might show that the record's success - as musically catchy as it was and is - was in fact more of a fluke than a pattern of success that was either seen in the years just before or immediately after Kokomo.

What also stays with me is the image of Mike being shown playing a sax solo in the videos for Kokomo, Problem Child, and perhaps more I don't know or can't remember. At what point did it become important to either his or the band's image to prominently feature him playing sax in those videos?

Being a frontman, MC, or showman is one thing, but why put the image out there of Mike playing these sax solos if not for vanity, ego, or some other reason I'm just not understanding in the history of the band?

The word fluke implies an accident though. To use a pool analogy, a fluke would be going for a long shot into the corner pocket and it ricocheting around the table before unintentionally potting it in the middle bag.

The Beach Boys situation is more the equivalent of attempting 10 long shots into the corner pocket and potting a couple (Wipeout and Kokomo) with the others missing. The two that go in aren't flukes but the misses indicate a lack of sustained ability.

Of course ego plays a part. Mike's ego is the stuff of legends. As probably none of the group played a note on Problem Child and many of the other songs I don't think it really matters though.

What any of this has to do with Carl and Mike's relationship is a mystery anyway.  

[guitarfool2002]

I think it plays into the interpersonal relationships of the band in general to try to understand why the image of Mike playing those sax solos was as important to putting across a specific image to people watching as it seems to have been especially at this time. And unless the same video director followed the band around constantly in the 80's and 90's telling Mike to pretend to play a sax during certain moments on film or on stage, it was coming from another source entirely.

I'm not going to spell it out in detail, but it's just one of those points which could be applied to other aspects of this band's history in order to better understand the how's and why's of the story. In my opinion.

[Lonely Summer]

I wonder how many fans went to see the group in concert and were disappointed when Mike DIDN'T play the sax solos?

[SMiLE Brian]

I think the sax solo "playing" in videos went back to Mike's ego, he had always taken criticism for "not playing anything" with the BBs.

 So to "show the truth" of playing saxophone, Mike played the sax solos in the videos. While in reality, he could barely honk on shutdown.

[Nicko1234]

I think it plays into the interpersonal relationships of the band in general to try to understand why the image of Mike playing those sax solos was as important to putting across a specific image to people watching as it seems to have been especially at this time. And unless the same video director followed the band around constantly in the 80's and 90's telling Mike to pretend to play a sax during certain moments on film or on stage, it was coming from another source entirely.

I'm not going to spell it out in detail, but it's just one of those points which could be applied to other aspects of this band's history in order to better understand the how's and why's of the story. In my opinion.

Mike's ego is relevant. Not the other stuff though imo.

There is one interesting thing in one of the videos from that era though. Obviously people label Mike as corny (rightly so) and badly dressed, mock Al for his ponytail and Bruce for the shorts. Some have said that if Carl had been in charge the image of the band could have been very different. I think the Crocodile Rock video shows Carl to be just as much of a cheeseball as the rest.   Carl's appearance on Solid Gold was similarly cheesy at times...

[Nicko1234]

I think the sax solo "playing" in videos went back to Mike's ego, he had always taken criticism for "not playing anything" with the BBs.

Which is kind of hilarious when you think about it. 'Why doesn't the front man play an instrument?' 'Because he's the front man!!!'

[Cam Mott]

Well once it's in the video then after it is just an "imitation" of the video. Was Mike doing this before the video was shot?

[guitarfool2002]

I wonder how many fans went to see the group in concert and were disappointed when Mike DIDN'T play the sax solos?

I should know this, but were there stage or concert appearances after Kokomo, filmed or not, where Mike was on stage with a sax prop pretending to do more than when he actually is honking two sax notes on "Shut Down"?

It's my own opinion, of course, but I had in mind a long-lost article where Elvis was being discussed and the point was made how many non-musician fans for years would hear an early Elvis record and assume it was actually Elvis playing something Scotty Moore had played because they had it in their mind that Elvis was a "guitar player", and therefore anything played on guitar on his records was played by him.

It's a point that gets into how powerful image and assumption can be in the entertainment biz.

But the thing with Mike and his sax playing persona is that they were putting forth both an image and an assumption for those watching that Mike really was playing those sax solos, which was known by those with a more passionate interest in the band and their music to be not only misleading but completely false, yet the image someone wanted to project to those less-invested fans was that besides being the "frontman", the guy could also play one helluva a sax solo...it's the kind of thing that could have been used against people trying to talk up how great this band was/is and how we should listen to the music apart from any image and find/enjoy the greatness therein, only to see the most widely-seen image of this band for a period of time featuring a misrepresentation of the music and the musicians seemingly based on creating a persona that has nothing at all to do with the band, the music, or much else beyond vanity and/or ego.

If the video was satire, or playing up an image for laughs, that's one thing and it can be hilarious when done right, but Kokomo and the rest seem to be an earnest attempt to convince people watching that Mike could and did play a mean saxophone. My point is he is obviously the frontman in the spotlight, he does sing leads and did write those classic lyrics since the 60's, why push it even more to try to show that he is an ace sax player as well?

The possible answers to that are what relates to this thread's topic.

[Lonely Summer]

As much as I enjoy much of the BB's 80's output, when I watch the videos for those songs, it is painful. I don't know who to blame - the video directors, management, or the group themselves, but they look like a parody of themselves. Getcha Back and California Dreamin' are good; the rest, bleh! And we wonder how Carl felt about all of this....I have no idea, but it is interesting that he didn't participate in the Wipe Out video. As far as I know, he isn't on the record, either.