Mike the dominant creative force when it came to conceptual content?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Again, my interpretation is that Mike is not saying that he was the dominant one in the writing partnership

But that's what he said:

"He was a gifted arranger and composer of music, but lyrically and conceptually, I was always the dominant creative force in that relationship."

You read it as saying that Mike is claiming he was dominant in the songwriting partnership overall, while I read his claim as referring back only to the "lyrically and conceptually" phrase.

With such an ambiguous sentence, can we not give Mike the benefit of the doubt? Do we really believe that ego and envy have driven Mike so out of his mind that he now believes he was a greater creative force than was Brian?

This. It's obvious to anyone without a Mike dislike bias.

 I don't have an anti Mike bias, and I still disagree with you. If you're going to accuse me of something as patently untrue as that, I'd suggest you reconsider.  Tread lightly

[Mike's Beard]

Did I personally say that YOU did? No I didn't so don't react as if I did.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Well, with such a general statement such as that , how did expect me to take it? You said it was 'obvious to anyone without a Mike dislike bias'. Well, I disagree highly, but I don't have a bias against Mike.  There's only one band member I actively dislike for reasons I don't care to go into, but I'd still admit that him joining the band in 1965 filled out the harmony blend perfectly. I don't let my feelings about people personally color my view on their artistic abilities.

[Mike's Beard]

My statement was aimed at the usual suspects who do have a personal dislike for Mike and it seems to cloud their judgement on interpretating everything the man does and says. It certainly has clouded this thread. I'd always just assumed it was a given that it was recognised in Mike and Brian's songwriting relationship, that it was predominantly Mike who came up with the lyrics/subject matter while the music and arrangements were almost exclusively Brian's. It's kind of surreal to see people claiming otherwise.

[bgas]

My statement was aimed at the usual suspects who do have a personal dislike for Mike and it seems to cloud their judgement on interpretating everything the man does and says. It certainly has clouded this thread. I'd always just assumed it was a given that it was recognised in Mike and Brian's songwriting relationship, that it was predominantly Mike who came up with the lyrics/subject matter while the music and arrangements were almost exclusively Brian's. It's kind of surreal to see people claiming otherwise.

  Never really thought it that solid; I lean towards Brian writing the music AND often, tho certainly not always, having a sense of what he wanted each song to be about lyrically.

[Cam Mott]

How many listeners bought or even got into these records (i.e. the 'classics' from the 60's) primarily on the strength of the lyrics? Did the kids/fans in the 60's hear whatever single was on the radio then go out and buy the 45 based primarily on lyrics?

I can only speak for myself but I paid attention to lyrics, more in the car songs, less in the other songs, but always singing along and not always with the right words it turns out.

[Howie Edelson]

Is it fair to say that Mike Love's lyrics to "Spring Vacation" proves that he was the dominant creative force in selling fans the fact that C50 symbolized the FUTURE of the BB's? (No mention of an "end date" anywhere that I can recall. . . )

[CenturyDeprived]

Is it fair to say that Mike Love's lyrics to "Spring Vacation" proves that he was the dominant creative force in selling fans the fact that C50 symbolized the FUTURE of the BB's? (No mention of an "end date" anywhere that I can recall. . . )

(crickets from the Cam corner)...

[Cyncie]

Is it fair to say that Mike Love's lyrics to "Spring Vacation" proves that he was the dominant creative force in selling fans the fact that C50 symbolized the FUTURE of the BB's? (No mention of an "end date" anywhere that I can recall. . . )

Hmmmm.  Just a few tweaks and…

Driving around living the dream
I'm crusin' the town, diggin' the scene
I'm not gonna stress, not gonna worry
Doing our best, no need to hurry
Lookin' ahead with anticipation
To the set end date of this celebration
Seems like it could take forever
Al even thinks we can all stay together

Maybe Joe Thomas did some editorial work. It would explain why Mike doesn't want him in the "room"!

[CenturyDeprived]

Is it fair to say that Mike Love's lyrics to "Spring Vacation" proves that he was the dominant creative force in selling fans the fact that C50 symbolized the FUTURE of the BB's? (No mention of an "end date" anywhere that I can recall. . . )

Hmmmm.  Just a few tweaks and…

Driving around living the dream
I'm crusin' the town, diggin' the scene
I'm not gonna stress, not gonna worry
Doing our best, no need to hurry
Lookin' ahead with anticipation
To the set end date of this celebration
Seems like it could take forever
Al even thinks we can all stay together

Maybe Joe Thomas did some editorial work. It would explain why Mike doesn't want him in the "room"!

 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

My statement was aimed at the usual suspects who do have a personal dislike for Mike and it seems to cloud their judgement on interpretating everything the man does and says. It certainly has clouded this thread. I'd always just assumed it was a given that it was recognised in Mike and Brian's songwriting relationship, that it was predominantly Mike who came up with the lyrics/subject matter while the music and arrangements were almost exclusively Brian's. It's kind of surreal to see people claiming otherwise.

Ahhh..ok gotcha.

[Cam Mott]

Is it fair to say that Mike Love's lyrics to "Spring Vacation" proves that he was the dominant creative force in selling fans the fact that C50 symbolized the FUTURE of the BB's? (No mention of an "end date" anywhere that I can recall. . . )

(crickets from the Cam corner)...

I don't know. Lots of posters are saying it must be mostly Brian's concept and lyrics.

[Douchepool]

My statement was aimed at the usual suspects who do have a personal dislike for Mike and it seems to cloud their judgement on interpretating everything the man does and says. It certainly has clouded this thread. I'd always just assumed it was a given that it was recognised in Mike and Brian's songwriting relationship, that it was predominantly Mike who came up with the lyrics/subject matter while the music and arrangements were almost exclusively Brian's. It's kind of surreal to see people claiming otherwise.

 

Bravo, sir. Bra-fucking-vo. You said it.

[Lee Marshall]

Don't think so.  I believe he enjoys it.  And he does get to take a break when the 'sched.' allows for it.  Two great variations on a theme.  One for each concept.  Two for the rest of us.  I'll check them BOTH out and enjoy myself while doing it.  Nobody loses...at least not when they do it this way.

Exactly.  And hell, I give Mike his fair due, I dig his band ,  and I think he's unfairly maligned much of the time. For him to overly puff himself up, though, is proving his detractors right and quite frankly doing himself a great disservice.

Billy I've said it several times since I arrived here.  Mike's 'foot in mouth' disease is a LARGE problem.  He is his own worst enemy constantly.  He very MUCH needs to hire a PR company.  His book is gonna be ripped to shreds and used to start forest fires of Mike Love books if he prints out THIS kind of bullshit.

He has his strengths...and like all of us he has his weaknesses.  No amount of a self-appointed Mike Love Cavalry can ride to the rescue of the fly attractant he spews.  Most people will ignore his tomfoolery.  But when it comes out in book form ...'on the record' as it were...and when the critics get a hold of it...he'll be made the laughing stock of the month...elegible to be the grand prize winner of 2016...and possibly the entire decade.



--------------------

Hire some PR people and avoid this...and ultimately THAT.

[SMiLE Brian]

Well said Add some, a sensible solution.

[Robbie Mac]

Well said Add some, a sensible solution.

Careful. You don't want your Mike hate to cloud your opinions.

[CenturyDeprived]

Billy I've said it several times since I arrived here.  Mike's 'foot in mouth' disease is a LARGE problem.  He is his own worst enemy constantly.  He very MUCH needs to hire a PR company.  His book is gonna be ripped to shreds and used to start forest fires of Mike Love books if he prints out THIS kind of bullshit.

He has his strengths...and like all of us he has his weaknesses.  No amount of a self-appointed Mike Love Cavalry can ride to the rescue of the fly attractant he spews.  Most people will ignore his tomfoolery.  But when it comes out in book form ...'on the record' as it were...and when the critics get a hold of it...he'll be made the laughing stock of the month...elegible to be the grand prize winner of 2016...and possibly the entire decade.



--------------------

Hire some PR people and avoid this...and ultimately THAT.

Problem is, having a PR person filter wacky statements like these would necessitate the person saying them has any idea of how he comes off, and wanting to get a PR person to help out...and I don't think Mike does have any self-awareness in that department. I don't think he thinks there's a problem whatsoever with using the "dominant" word in a Brian Wilson sentence, as though those two words together (regardless of "good intent") should give most sensible people the creeps, knowing Brian's history of being literally being dominated by his dad and shrink. There's like 5 people on this board who don't think it's a problem, and perhaps casual fans who think Carl Wilson was the dad, but most people who know the history of the band would see that as being an icky thing to say, let alone the inaccuracy of saying "always" in place of "sometimes" or "often".

Plus, a PR person costs money. And we know how the overhead must be cut, cut, cut.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Is it fair to say that Mike Love's lyrics to "Spring Vacation" proves that he was the dominant creative force in selling fans the fact that C50 symbolized the FUTURE of the BB's? (No mention of an "end date" anywhere that I can recall. . . )

(crickets from the Cam corner)...

I don't know. Lots of posters are saying it must be mostly Brian's concept and lyrics.

Then wouldn't that contradict what Mike said?

In any case, my understanding was that he did do a fair portion of the lyrics. Who came up with the idea? I'm not 100% sure.

[Jim V.]

Is it fair to say that Mike Love's lyrics to "Spring Vacation" proves that he was the dominant creative force in selling fans the fact that C50 symbolized the FUTURE of the BB's? (No mention of an "end date" anywhere that I can recall. . . )

(crickets from the Cam corner)...

I don't know. Lots of posters are saying it must be mostly Brian's concept and lyrics.

Morpheus, why have you forsaken me?

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

Is it fair to say that Mike Love's lyrics to "Spring Vacation" proves that he was the dominant creative force in selling fans the fact that C50 symbolized the FUTURE of the BB's? (No mention of an "end date" anywhere that I can recall. . . )

Hmmmm.  Just a few tweaks and…

Driving around living the dream
I'm crusin' the town, diggin' the scene
I'm not gonna stress, not gonna worry
Doing our best, no need to hurry
Lookin' ahead with anticipation
To the set end date of this celebration
Seems like it could take forever
Al even thinks we can all stay together

Maybe Joe Thomas did some editorial work. It would explain why Mike doesn't want him in the "room"!

 

[Cam Mott]

Then wouldn't that contradict what Mike said?

Tough room.

No actually, it wouldn't.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

Don't think so.  I believe he enjoys it.  And he does get to take a break when the 'sched.' allows for it.  Two great variations on a theme.  One for each concept.  Two for the rest of us.  I'll check them BOTH out and enjoy myself while doing it.  Nobody loses...at least not when they do it this way.

Exactly.  And hell, I give Mike his fair due, I dig his band ,  and I think he's unfairly maligned much of the time. For him to overly puff himself up, though, is proving his detractors right and quite frankly doing himself a great disservice.

Billy I've said it several times since I arrived here.  Mike's 'foot in mouth' disease is a LARGE problem.  He is his own worst enemy constantly.  He very MUCH needs to hire a PR company.  His book is gonna be ripped to shreds and used to start forest fires of Mike Love books if he prints out THIS kind of bullshit.

He has his strengths...and like all of us he has his weaknesses.  No amount of a self-appointed Mike Love Cavalry can ride to the rescue of the fly attractant he spews.  Most people will ignore his tomfoolery.  But when it comes out in book form ...'on the record' as it were...and when the critics get a hold of it...he'll be made the laughing stock of the month...elegible to be the grand prize winner of 2016...and possibly the entire decade.



--------------------

Hire some PR people and avoid this...and ultimately THAT.

He occupied "Laughing Stock" territory a L O N G  T I M E  A G O and he'll never get out of it. Once a buffoon, always a buffoon. 

[Wirestone]

My statement was aimed at the usual suspects who do have a personal dislike for Mike and it seems to cloud their judgement on interpretating everything the man does and says. It certainly has clouded this thread. I'd always just assumed it was a given that it was recognised in Mike and Brian's songwriting relationship, that it was predominantly Mike who came up with the lyrics/subject matter while the music and arrangements were almost exclusively Brian's. It's kind of surreal to see people claiming otherwise.

But that's not what Mike said.

If that was what Mike said, there would be no thread.

Some folks' overwhelming sympathies toward Mike are clouding their ability to see how he comes off. And not just here, but for the last quarter century.

Let's look at two statements. See if you can spot the difference.

1.) I was usually the guy who came up with the lyrics and subject matter when we wrote together.

2.) Lyrically and conceptually, I was always the dominant creative force in that relationship.

One is plainspoken, but still making a point. One is bloated with self importance and superlatives to the point of hilarious falsity.

[Wirestone]

Clay, Mike didn't say that either. He said "lyrically and conceptually, I was always the dominant creative force in that relationship". So when he and Brian wrote together, not he and Brian and somebody else, in a relationship he had always come up with more of the lyrics and concepts. Not all but more.

I didn't say they don't mean what they say, I'm saying he and Marilyn mean what they say.

Re. your small hand full of song titles: always dominant lyrically/conceptually in their songwriting relationship is the claim so that could be Mike being the lyrical/conceptual guy once more than half or a few less than all or somewhat more than Brian all of the time. You are challenging Mike's claim, what have you got?

I have a basic understanding of the band's history. Also general usage of the English language.

I would ask you this: Are you seriously suggesting that "I was always the dominant creative force in that relationship" means simply that Mike came up with full lyrics and concepts for 50 percent +1 of the songs he's credited with co-writing?

Because that sure doesn't square with the sense of Mike's statement, or any definition of "always" or "dominant" that I know. Here's one definition of "dominant," just for kicks: "commanding, controlling, or prevailing over all others." So it's not just a simple substitution for the word "more." If one goes by the precise meaning of the word, it goes far further, in influence and extent.

[rab2591]

Hire some PR people and avoid this...and ultimately THAT.

When it comes to interviews it's definitely a lost cause. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when a PR guy is trying to coach Mike on how to answer questions....

PR guy: "So when someone asks you 'Do you still talk to Brian?' how should you respond?"
Mike: "That Brian is controlled and on prescription medications."
PR guy: "Dammit, Mike, for the 9th time, that has nothing to do with the question. We'll come back to that. How about if someone asks you about Joe Thomas' involvement with TWGMTR?"
Mike: "......Oh! I'll talk about his fear of flying!"
PR guy: "....siiiggggghhhhh...."

When it comes to his book, you're right, if he follows this usual passive-aggressive/back-handed quips, and over-dramatized self-importance style in "on-the-record" form, it'll just make him look bad.