Mike the dominant creative force when it came to conceptual content?

[Sheriff John Stone]

No.

The sticking point is not the word "dominant," but the words "dominant creative force."

Yeah, but you - and others - are conveniently and repeatedly leaving out the words "lyrically" and "in that relationship". And, including those words makes all the difference. I'm sure it was just an oversight on your part, knowing that you are a seeker of THE TRUTH!

You've left one out as well. 'Conceptually'.  If we define concept as a unifying idea or theme, I don't think Mike has a very strong argument. The unifying themes of surfing and drag racing were surely inspired by Dennis. Mike used TM as a theme, otherwise some of the concept albums and concepts in the songs, were not down to Mike but to others including Van Dyke Parks and Brian himself. Mike wrote many lyrics, admittedly but to claim he was 'always the dominant creative force in that relationship' is untrue because it suggests that his lyrics were more creative than Brian's music.

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love. Mike's quote is NOT saying that he invented or created the original concepts that were used in the songs he wrote with Brian. He's not claiming that he invented or created the original surfing concept any more than Dennis Wilson did when he suggested they write a song about it. Surf music was around before Dennis suggested it. What Mike is saying, if you really want to admit it, and most on here don't, is that JUST IN THE SONGS THAT HE WROTE WITH BRIAN WILSON, he (Mike) came up with/decided/most of the time/the dominant percentage of time, the lyrical concepts USED SPECIFICALLY IN THE CREATION OF THE SONGS. Created the original concepts, no, he's not saying that. But in the context of the actual writing of the songs, yes, was responsible for bringing the concepts INTO THE LYRICS, creating the concept FOR THE INDIVIDUAL SONGS.

EDIT: I read an interview with Mike, a fairly recent one actually, and Mike was discussing Chuck Berry's lyrics and how they influenced and inspired Mike's lyrics and concepts that he brought to Beach Boys' songs. That's about the best example I can come up with. Mike wasn't taking credit for inventing or creating the concepts that Chuck wrote about - cars, up in the morning and off to school, and girls. But, when it came to creating songs, creating concepts for songs, with Brian Wilson, yeah, Mike was responsible for that. A lot.

[Ang Jones]

No.

The sticking point is not the word "dominant," but the words "dominant creative force."

Yeah, but you - and others - are conveniently and repeatedly leaving out the words "lyrically" and "in that relationship". And, including those words makes all the difference. I'm sure it was just an oversight on your part, knowing that you are a seeker of THE TRUTH!

You've left one out as well. 'Conceptually'.  If we define concept as a unifying idea or theme, I don't think Mike has a very strong argument. The unifying themes of surfing and drag racing were surely inspired by Dennis. Mike used TM as a theme, otherwise some of the concept albums and concepts in the songs, were not down to Mike but to others including Van Dyke Parks and Brian himself. Mike wrote many lyrics, admittedly but to claim he was 'always the dominant creative force in that relationship' is untrue because it suggests that his lyrics were more creative than Brian's music.

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love. Mike's quote is NOT saying that he invented or created the original concepts that were used in the songs he wrote with Brian. He's not claiming that he invented or created the original surfing concept any more than Dennis Wilson did when he suggested they write a song about it. Surf music was around before Dennis suggested it. What Mike is saying, if you really want to admit it, and most on here don't, is that JUST IN THE SONGS THAT HE WROTE WITH BRIAN WILSON, he (Mike) came up with/decided/most of the time/the dominant percentage of time, the lyrical concepts USED SPECIFICALLY IN THE CREATION OF THE SONGS. Created the original concepts, no, he's not saying that. But in the context of the actual writing of the songs, yes, was responsible for bringing the concepts INTO THE LYRICS, creating the concept FOR THE INDIVIDUAL SONGS.

EDIT: I read an interview with Mike, a fairly recent one actually, and Mike was discussing Chuck Berry's lyrics and how they influenced and inspired Mike's lyrics and concepts that he brought to Beach Boys' songs. That's about the best example I can come up with. Mike wasn't taking credit for inventing or creating the concepts that Chuck wrote about - cars, up in the morning and off to school, and girls. But, when it came to creating songs, creating concepts for songs, with Brian Wilson, yeah, Mike was responsible for that. A lot.

Even if I were to accept your interpretation of Mike's words (and I've yet to be convinced) I repeat that to claim he was 'always the dominant creative force in that relationship' is untrue because it suggests that his lyrics were more creative than Brian's music. I think few would accept that to be the case. Mike's skill as a lyricist did not equal let alone surpass Brian's skill as a song writer.

[Sheriff John Stone]

No.

The sticking point is not the word "dominant," but the words "dominant creative force."

Yeah, but you - and others - are conveniently and repeatedly leaving out the words "lyrically" and "in that relationship". And, including those words makes all the difference. I'm sure it was just an oversight on your part, knowing that you are a seeker of THE TRUTH!

You've left one out as well. 'Conceptually'.  If we define concept as a unifying idea or theme, I don't think Mike has a very strong argument. The unifying themes of surfing and drag racing were surely inspired by Dennis. Mike used TM as a theme, otherwise some of the concept albums and concepts in the songs, were not down to Mike but to others including Van Dyke Parks and Brian himself. Mike wrote many lyrics, admittedly but to claim he was 'always the dominant creative force in that relationship' is untrue because it suggests that his lyrics were more creative than Brian's music.

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love. Mike's quote is NOT saying that he invented or created the original concepts that were used in the songs he wrote with Brian. He's not claiming that he invented or created the original surfing concept any more than Dennis Wilson did when he suggested they write a song about it. Surf music was around before Dennis suggested it. What Mike is saying, if you really want to admit it, and most on here don't, is that JUST IN THE SONGS THAT HE WROTE WITH BRIAN WILSON, he (Mike) came up with/decided/most of the time/the dominant percentage of time, the lyrical concepts USED SPECIFICALLY IN THE CREATION OF THE SONGS. Created the original concepts, no, he's not saying that. But in the context of the actual writing of the songs, yes, was responsible for bringing the concepts INTO THE LYRICS, creating the concept FOR THE INDIVIDUAL SONGS.

EDIT: I read an interview with Mike, a fairly recent one actually, and Mike was discussing Chuck Berry's lyrics and how they influenced and inspired Mike's lyrics and concepts that he brought to Beach Boys' songs. That's about the best example I can come up with. Mike wasn't taking credit for inventing or creating the concepts that Chuck wrote about - cars, up in the morning and off to school, and girls. But, when it came to creating songs, creating concepts for songs, with Brian Wilson, yeah, Mike was responsible for that. A lot.

Even if I were to accept your interpretation of Mike's words (and I've yet to be convinced) I repeat that to claim he was 'always the dominant creative force in that relationship' is untrue because it suggests that his lyrics were more creative than Brian's music. I think few would accept that to be the case. Mike's skill as a lyricist did not equal let alone surpass Brian's skill as a song writer.

Now you're leaving something out. Mike isn't just saying he was "always the dominant creative force in that relationship". You are.

Mike said, "LYRICALLY AND CONCEPTUALLY, I was always the dominant creative force in that relationship." Lyrically and conceptually. Very important part of the quote.

[guitarfool2002]

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love.

That's nonsense. The twisting of the words, parsing of the words, finding any excuse to "interpret" them as something other than what they actually were up to and including suggesting he was misquoted came fast and furious as soon as people started to post reactions that didn't agree with Mike's commentary. Look at who is doing the most twisting, parsing, and filibustering in this thread as opposed to reading the words exactly as they appeared, and you'll see what happens when damage control tries and fails to smooth things out.

Like clockwork.

[clack]

I'm a Brian fan first and foremost, even before being a Beach Boys fan. I do appreciate Mike's lyrics 1963-67, but otherwise I've seen him as being a bit of a joke.

However, the way that some on this thread have distorted Mike's words in order to show Mike in the worst possible light has convinced me that there does exist a pervasive anti-Mike bias.

Despise him if you want, but even Mike Love deserves to be judged by standards of fairness.

[Cam Mott]

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love.

That's nonsense. The twisting of the words, parsing of the words, finding any excuse to "interpret" them as something other than what they actually were up to and including suggesting he was misquoted came fast and furious as soon as people started to post reactions that didn't agree with Mike's commentary. Look at who is doing the most twisting, parsing, and filibustering in this thread as opposed to reading the words exactly as they appeared, and you'll see what happens when damage control tries and fails to smooth things out.

Like clockwork.

I thought the "whom" was a joke.

Apparently we all think the other guy is doing that and we all think we are reading the words exactly as they appeared.

[Ang Jones]

No.

The sticking point is not the word "dominant," but the words "dominant creative force."

Yeah, but you - and others - are conveniently and repeatedly leaving out the words "lyrically" and "in that relationship". And, including those words makes all the difference. I'm sure it was just an oversight on your part, knowing that you are a seeker of THE TRUTH!

You've left one out as well. 'Conceptually'.  If we define concept as a unifying idea or theme, I don't think Mike has a very strong argument. The unifying themes of surfing and drag racing were surely inspired by Dennis. Mike used TM as a theme, otherwise some of the concept albums and concepts in the songs, were not down to Mike but to others including Van Dyke Parks and Brian himself. Mike wrote many lyrics, admittedly but to claim he was 'always the dominant creative force in that relationship' is untrue because it suggests that his lyrics were more creative than Brian's music.

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love. Mike's quote is NOT saying that he invented or created the original concepts that were used in the songs he wrote with Brian. He's not claiming that he invented or created the original surfing concept any more than Dennis Wilson did when he suggested they write a song about it. Surf music was around before Dennis suggested it. What Mike is saying, if you really want to admit it, and most on here don't, is that JUST IN THE SONGS THAT HE WROTE WITH BRIAN WILSON, he (Mike) came up with/decided/most of the time/the dominant percentage of time, the lyrical concepts USED SPECIFICALLY IN THE CREATION OF THE SONGS. Created the original concepts, no, he's not saying that. But in the context of the actual writing of the songs, yes, was responsible for bringing the concepts INTO THE LYRICS, creating the concept FOR THE INDIVIDUAL SONGS.

EDIT: I read an interview with Mike, a fairly recent one actually, and Mike was discussing Chuck Berry's lyrics and how they influenced and inspired Mike's lyrics and concepts that he brought to Beach Boys' songs. That's about the best example I can come up with. Mike wasn't taking credit for inventing or creating the concepts that Chuck wrote about - cars, up in the morning and off to school, and girls. But, when it came to creating songs, creating concepts for songs, with Brian Wilson, yeah, Mike was responsible for that. A lot.

Even if I were to accept your interpretation of Mike's words (and I've yet to be convinced) I repeat that to claim he was 'always the dominant creative force in that relationship' is untrue because it suggests that his lyrics were more creative than Brian's music. I think few would accept that to be the case. Mike's skill as a lyricist did not equal let alone surpass Brian's skill as a song writer.

Now you're leaving something out. Mike isn't just saying he was "always the dominant creative force in that relationship". You are.

Mike said, "LYRICALLY AND CONCEPTUALLY, I was always the dominant creative force in that relationship." Lyrically and conceptually. Very important part of the quote.

Mike's words were: "He [Brian] was a gifted arranger and composer of music, but lyrically and conceptually, I was always the dominant creative force in that relationship."

What is wrong with this is that if Mike was the lyricist and Brian wrote the music Mike cannot be the dominant lyricist as he is the ONLY lyricist. Similarly if the concepts were all from Mike, he is the sole creator of those concepts, not a dominant one. Brian could just as easily be stated to be the dominant musical creative force in the relationship. That makes Mike and Brian equal creative forces. But of course they are not. Mike 's creative force as a lyricist doesn't come close to Brian's creative force as a composer of music. The only other way this can be interpreted is that their relationship involved both of them coming up with concepts and lyrics, I'm sure an interpretation that Mike did not intend.

[drbeachboy]

[quote
 author=drbeachboy link=topic=21286.msg516207#msg516207 date=1431271080]

I'd like to see Mike save his own ass.  I always enjoyed the Beach Boys sound...and that always included Mike.  Some of his songs...I mean some of the ones he sang LEAD on...are among my all time favourites.  His part in Brians mix...the BRIAN DOUGLAS WILSON sound...imagined and  created exclusively by the TRUE dominant creative force in the group is etherial and outstanding and the reason why were all here.  Mike didnh't have much to do with it except for playing his NICHE part.  AN IMPORTANT part...but still...just a part.

The thing is when it all comes back to reflect badly on Mike...and it will...it'll reflect badly on the whole group.  And that's just 100% fuckin' wrong.  They were all...Brian included...a part of something WAY bigger than just the individual.  Maybe a PR person can convince Mike to lie and say he believes that too.  It's true.

I know some  won't believe it, but I truly agree with this. I love so much of the stuff th
at Mike did with the group, including his little answer vocals on "Summer's Gone," his bass parts, the catchy hooks he added. He has an undeniable charisma and way with words. I even think "Cool Head, Warm Heart" is a really nice song!

I acknowledge and celebrate the work. But his actions as a person, bandmate and interview subject? Not so much.

Mike has an undeniable charisma??? Where, what, how, why and really?   That's  an obvious head(with hair) scratcher.  

What I find the most interesting with you and Mike is that you both are so much alike. Especially, the way you both stick with the same lines. It really gets to be hard to take what either of you say seriously when the message never changes.

Happy Mother's Day to all of you lovely mothers who post here and to all of the rest here and their lovely mothers.

And I try so damn hard to painstakingly craft my posts so even you'll like them. Man, I'm soooo sorry! I will undoubtedly be doubling my efforts. And knowing that you are one of myKe's steadfast lieutenants, I guess I have to thank you for putting me right up there with the LuhVster on your most liked list. Let's see, only 5 more wives to go and I'll really be...  ...

As I know that you are well aware and that I have stated many, many times, my allegiance is to the band. I take no comfort in ripping any of the band members. It adds nothing to my enjoyment of being a fan or listening to the music. The music should be what counts most, not breaking down to the Nth degree what word Mike uses to describe how he goes about coming up with ideas and writing the lyrics. I keep thinking when I enter these threads that I am going read well thought out posts. Learn something. Rarely happens. All I see are folks picking sides like a Dodge Ball game and going to town heaving the ball at each other.

[Sheriff John Stone]

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love.

That's nonsense. The twisting of the words, parsing of the words, finding any excuse to "interpret" them as something other than what they actually were up to and including suggesting he was misquoted came fast and furious as soon as people started to post reactions that didn't agree with Mike's commentary. Look at who is doing the most twisting, parsing, and filibustering in this thread as opposed to reading the words exactly as they appeared, and you'll see what happens when damage control tries and fails to smooth things out.

Like clockwork.

This thread is a perfect example of the hypocrisy that is rampant on this board, and you are leading the way. Again.

Thread after thread, post after post, the subject comes up about the Beach Boys' image of cars, girls, surfing, and fun in the sum-sum-summertime. And who is usually held responsible (blamed?) for that image? Well, that would be Mike Love, of course. Mike was the one who wrote the words, pushed the concepts on the group, and maybe even bullied Brian into going in that direction when he (Brian) didn't really want to. Yep, it was Mike Love all along. Blame him. It was HIS fault.

Then, now, Mike Love takes credit for it, takes credit for the very thing he is accused of on this board. But, instead of saying, "See, I told you they were his ideas, he was responsible, it was him", no, now you don't want to give him the credit. Now you want to take it away. Hey, guitarfool2012, you have a way with words. What's that called? Having it both ways?

[guitarfool2002]

No.

The sticking point is not the word "dominant," but the words "dominant creative force."

And the REAL sticking point is that that comment (along with that transparent travesty of Beard's “interview”) is that it seems that Mike is setting things up to change history, presumably for his book. What I find interesting is that Mike’s supporters are ALWAYS claiming a bias from others against him because of the things he says when they knock Brian Wilson.

For DECADES Mike talks about Brian’s mental, emotional, and substance issues with abandon.
When was the last time you heard Brian (or Melinda) discuss Mike in any negative light?
They haven’t.

I fear that that will be the crux of Mike’s book: BRIAN WILSON’S STORY THROUGH THE EYES OF MIKE LOVE. Because that’s the story of the band, they were all -- even Dennis -- satellites of BW. What's Mike really going to write about? HIS songs? HIS marriages? HIS kids?

Two themes: Brian and TM.

This book is his last shot at public redemption. I know his people read this board, so I’m gonna say it straight to them: Do the right thing. Don’t hire fact checkers to change history to present situations in a positive light when they weren’t. Own up to how it went down. Brian Wilson has. Everyone will appreciate an honest Mike Love book that simply calls it like he sees it rather than taking away from Brian Wilson’s gifts and catalogue. His life has been a fascinating enough journey without having to do that.

If Mike and his staff go with “That’s mine/that’s me” they lose -- especially after Love And Mercy.
Trying to knock/hurt this guy is the dumbest (professionally and monetarily) thing they can do.
They will be SLAUGHTERED by the press.

“Dominant creative force" is a red flag, and Mike Love’s supporters on this board always end up spending weeks arguing semantics (e.g. what words REALLY mean), this thread has become that now, too.

Cam -- the lesson is as old as the ages: If you have to s hit on someone to win, you don’t win.

Stop fighting.
Go outside.
Kiss your kids.
Have fun.
I love you.

Agreed 100%. Great post.

[guitarfool2002]

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love.

That's nonsense. The twisting of the words, parsing of the words, finding any excuse to "interpret" them as something other than what they actually were up to and including suggesting he was misquoted came fast and furious as soon as people started to post reactions that didn't agree with Mike's commentary. Look at who is doing the most twisting, parsing, and filibustering in this thread as opposed to reading the words exactly as they appeared, and you'll see what happens when damage control tries and fails to smooth things out.

Like clockwork.

This thread is a perfect example of the hypocrisy that is rampant on this board, and you are leading the way. Again.

Thread after thread, post after post, the subject comes up about the Beach Boys' image of cars, girls, surfing, and fun in the sum-sum-summertime. And who is usually held responsible (blamed?) for that image? Well, that would be Mike Love, of course. Mike was the one who wrote the words, pushed the concepts on the group, and maybe even bullied Brian into going in that direction when he (Brian) didn't really want to. Yep, it was Mike Love all along. Blame him. It was HIS fault.

Then, now, Mike Love takes credit for it, takes credit for the very thing he is accused of on this board. But, instead of saying, "See, I told you they were his ideas, he was responsible, it was him", no, now you don't want to give him the credit. Now you want to take it away. Hey, guitarfool2012, you have a way with words. What's that called? Having it both ways?

Ahh, here we go, hypocrisy, double standard, etc. I'm the hypocrite on the board, yet again. Prove it. Then we can talk about some hypocrisy on this board hardly anyone knows about. Make sure you check on that carefully before opening that Pandora's Box.

On topic: When The Beach Boys were getting slaughtered in the late 60's for that image of surf-sun-cars-girls, when all of the things that made them superstars were really getting criticized and dismissed, where was Mike Love to defend it publicly?

[drbeachboy]

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love.

That's nonsense. The twisting of the words, parsing of the words, finding any excuse to "interpret" them as something other than what they actually were up to and including suggesting he was misquoted came fast and furious as soon as people started to post reactions that didn't agree with Mike's commentary. Look at who is doing the most twisting, parsing, and filibustering in this thread as opposed to reading the words exactly as they appeared, and you'll see what happens when damage control tries and fails to smooth things out.

Like clockwork.

This thread is a perfect example of the hypocrisy that is rampant on this board, and you are leading the way. Again.

Thread after thread, post after post, the subject comes up about the Beach Boys' image of cars, girls, surfing, and fun in the sum-sum-summertime. And who is usually held responsible (blamed?) for that image? Well, that would be Mike Love, of course. Mike was the one who wrote the words, pushed the concepts on the group, and maybe even bullied Brian into going in that direction when he (Brian) didn't really want to. Yep, it was Mike Love all along. Blame him. It was HIS fault.

Then, now, Mike Love takes credit for it, takes credit for the very thing he is accused of on this board. But, instead of saying, "See, I told you they were his ideas, he was responsible, it was him", no, now you don't want to give him the credit. Now you want to take it away. Hey, guitarfool2012, you have a way with words. What's that called? Having it both ways?

Great point overall, Sheriff! I'll say this much, except for the band losing their popularity here in the U.S. during the early 70's, musically I am very happy with the trip this band has taken me on. It has been a fulfilling 50 plus year journey that has enriched my life. That is more enough for me.

[Ang Jones]

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love.

That's nonsense. The twisting of the words, parsing of the words, finding any excuse to "interpret" them as something other than what they actually were up to and including suggesting he was misquoted came fast and furious as soon as people started to post reactions that didn't agree with Mike's commentary. Look at who is doing the most twisting, parsing, and filibustering in this thread as opposed to reading the words exactly as they appeared, and you'll see what happens when damage control tries and fails to smooth things out.

Like clockwork.

This thread is a perfect example of the hypocrisy that is rampant on this board, and you are leading the way. Again.

Thread after thread, post after post, the subject comes up about the Beach Boys' image of cars, girls, surfing, and fun in the sum-sum-summertime. And who is usually held responsible (blamed?) for that image? Well, that would be Mike Love, of course. Mike was the one who wrote the words, pushed the concepts on the group, and maybe even bullied Brian into going in that direction when he (Brian) didn't really want to. Yep, it was Mike Love all along. Blame him. It was HIS fault.

Then, now, Mike Love takes credit for it, takes credit for the very thing he is accused of on this board. But, instead of saying, "See, I told you they were his ideas, he was responsible, it was him", no, now you don't want to give him the credit. Now you want to take it away. Hey, guitarfool2012, you have a way with words. What's that called? Having it both ways?

I know this post wasn't addressed to me but firstly I am prepared to admit openly that I consider Mike wanted to maintain the concept of Endless Summer type material. Had Mike said 'I was the main lyricist for a large part of the Beach Boys' career and the idea of Endless Summer type songs was mine' I'd have found this perfectly acceptable. Mike deliberately phrased this in a way that suggested he was creatively more significant than Brian and THAT is what I take exception to.

[rab2591]

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love.

That's nonsense. The twisting of the words, parsing of the words, finding any excuse to "interpret" them as something other than what they actually were up to and including suggesting he was misquoted came fast and furious as soon as people started to post reactions that didn't agree with Mike's commentary. Look at who is doing the most twisting, parsing, and filibustering in this thread as opposed to reading the words exactly as they appeared, and you'll see what happens when damage control tries and fails to smooth things out.

Like clockwork.

This thread is a perfect example of the hypocrisy that is rampant on this board, and you are leading the way. Again.

Thread after thread, post after post, the subject comes up about the Beach Boys' image of cars, girls, surfing, and fun in the sum-sum-summertime. And who is usually held responsible (blamed?) for that image? Well, that would be Mike Love, of course. Mike was the one who wrote the words, pushed the concepts on the group, and maybe even bullied Brian into going in that direction when he (Brian) didn't really want to. Yep, it was Mike Love all along. Blame him. It was HIS fault.

Then, now, Mike Love takes credit for it, takes credit for the very thing he is accused of on this board. But, instead of saying, "See, I told you they were his ideas, he was responsible, it was him", no, now you don't want to give him the credit. Now you want to take it away. Hey, guitarfool2012, you have a way with words. What's that called? Having it both ways?

Creating concepts of cars, surfing, girls, and fun-in-the-sun isn't at all the same as milking that well completely dry while turning your band into a laughingstock of an oldies jukebox machine that plays bowling alley parking lots and rodeos to make a quick buck.

Mike didn't create the concept of surfing for the Beach Boys, Dennis did. Mike didn't conceive the idea of introspective love songs on Today! (in fact, it seems he wasn't too keen on the idea ("don't f*** with the formula") of introspective songs)...So yeah, why would we agree with him when he takes credit for being the dominant creative force when it came to conceptual ideas? Mike singing pretty much solely about the fun-sun/surf concepts 150+ times a year is why some people here dislike him...not because he supposedly came up with these concepts.

[drbeachboy]

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love.

That's nonsense. The twisting of the words, parsing of the words, finding any excuse to "interpret" them as something other than what they actually were up to and including suggesting he was misquoted came fast and furious as soon as people started to post reactions that didn't agree with Mike's commentary. Look at who is doing the most twisting, parsing, and filibustering in this thread as opposed to reading the words exactly as they appeared, and you'll see what happens when damage control tries and fails to smooth things out.

Like clockwork.

This thread is a perfect example of the hypocrisy that is rampant on this board, and you are leading the way. Again.

Thread after thread, post after post, the subject comes up about the Beach Boys' image of cars, girls, surfing, and fun in the sum-sum-summertime. And who is usually held responsible (blamed?) for that image? Well, that would be Mike Love, of course. Mike was the one who wrote the words, pushed the concepts on the group, and maybe even bullied Brian into going in that direction when he (Brian) didn't really want to. Yep, it was Mike Love all along. Blame him. It was HIS fault.

Then, now, Mike Love takes credit for it, takes credit for the very thing he is accused of on this board. But, instead of saying, "See, I told you they were his ideas, he was responsible, it was him", no, now you don't want to give him the credit. Now you want to take it away. Hey, guitarfool2012, you have a way with words. What's that called? Having it both ways?

I know this post wasn't addressed to me but firstly I am prepared to admit openly that I consider Mike wanted to maintain the concept of Endless Summer type material. Had Mike siad 'I was the main lyricist for a large part of the Beach Boys' career and the idea of Endless Summer type songs was mine' I'd have found this perfectly acceptable. Mike deliberately phrased this in a way that suggested he was creatively more significant than Brian and THAT is what I take exception to.

This is true, but then again we really don't know what went on in the writing process. We know very little about what Brian & Mike discussed when coming up the songs and themes for albums, etc. For those who are dubious of Mike's explanation, maybe these things will be discussed in Mike's and Brian's new books. There had to be some process that they went through, whether formal or informal.

[Mike's Beard]

I'm a Brian fan first and foremost, even before being a Beach Boys fan. I do appreciate Mike's lyrics 1963-67, but otherwise I've seen him as being a bit of a joke.

However, the way that some on this thread have distorted Mike's words in order to show Mike in the worst possible light has convinced me that there does exist a pervasive anti-Mike bias.

You are only just now becoming aware of this?

[Sheriff John Stone]

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love.

That's nonsense. The twisting of the words, parsing of the words, finding any excuse to "interpret" them as something other than what they actually were up to and including suggesting he was misquoted came fast and furious as soon as people started to post reactions that didn't agree with Mike's commentary. Look at who is doing the most twisting, parsing, and filibustering in this thread as opposed to reading the words exactly as they appeared, and you'll see what happens when damage control tries and fails to smooth things out.

Like clockwork.

This thread is a perfect example of the hypocrisy that is rampant on this board, and you are leading the way. Again.

Thread after thread, post after post, the subject comes up about the Beach Boys' image of cars, girls, surfing, and fun in the sum-sum-summertime. And who is usually held responsible (blamed?) for that image? Well, that would be Mike Love, of course. Mike was the one who wrote the words, pushed the concepts on the group, and maybe even bullied Brian into going in that direction when he (Brian) didn't really want to. Yep, it was Mike Love all along. Blame him. It was HIS fault.

Then, now, Mike Love takes credit for it, takes credit for the very thing he is accused of on this board. But, instead of saying, "See, I told you they were his ideas, he was responsible, it was him", no, now you don't want to give him the credit. Now you want to take it away. Hey, guitarfool2012, you have a way with words. What's that called? Having it both ways?

Mike singing pretty much solely about the fun-sun/surf concepts 150+ times a year is why some people here dislike him...

Apparently Brian Wilson doesn't mind! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$4

[rab2591]

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love.

That's nonsense. The twisting of the words, parsing of the words, finding any excuse to "interpret" them as something other than what they actually were up to and including suggesting he was misquoted came fast and furious as soon as people started to post reactions that didn't agree with Mike's commentary. Look at who is doing the most twisting, parsing, and filibustering in this thread as opposed to reading the words exactly as they appeared, and you'll see what happens when damage control tries and fails to smooth things out.

Like clockwork.

This thread is a perfect example of the hypocrisy that is rampant on this board, and you are leading the way. Again.

Thread after thread, post after post, the subject comes up about the Beach Boys' image of cars, girls, surfing, and fun in the sum-sum-summertime. And who is usually held responsible (blamed?) for that image? Well, that would be Mike Love, of course. Mike was the one who wrote the words, pushed the concepts on the group, and maybe even bullied Brian into going in that direction when he (Brian) didn't really want to. Yep, it was Mike Love all along. Blame him. It was HIS fault.

Then, now, Mike Love takes credit for it, takes credit for the very thing he is accused of on this board. But, instead of saying, "See, I told you they were his ideas, he was responsible, it was him", no, now you don't want to give him the credit. Now you want to take it away. Hey, guitarfool2012, you have a way with words. What's that called? Having it both ways?

Mike singing pretty much solely about the fun-sun/surf concepts 150+ times a year is why some people here dislike him...

Apparently Brian Wilson doesn't mind! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$4

And this has to do what with the conversation at hand?

[guitarfool2002]

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love.

That's nonsense. The twisting of the words, parsing of the words, finding any excuse to "interpret" them as something other than what they actually were up to and including suggesting he was misquoted came fast and furious as soon as people started to post reactions that didn't agree with Mike's commentary. Look at who is doing the most twisting, parsing, and filibustering in this thread as opposed to reading the words exactly as they appeared, and you'll see what happens when damage control tries and fails to smooth things out.

Like clockwork.

This thread is a perfect example of the hypocrisy that is rampant on this board, and you are leading the way. Again.

Thread after thread, post after post, the subject comes up about the Beach Boys' image of cars, girls, surfing, and fun in the sum-sum-summertime. And who is usually held responsible (blamed?) for that image? Well, that would be Mike Love, of course. Mike was the one who wrote the words, pushed the concepts on the group, and maybe even bullied Brian into going in that direction when he (Brian) didn't really want to. Yep, it was Mike Love all along. Blame him. It was HIS fault.

Then, now, Mike Love takes credit for it, takes credit for the very thing he is accused of on this board. But, instead of saying, "See, I told you they were his ideas, he was responsible, it was him", no, now you don't want to give him the credit. Now you want to take it away. Hey, guitarfool2012, you have a way with words. What's that called? Having it both ways?

I know this post wasn't addressed to me but firstly I am prepared to admit openly that I consider Mike wanted to maintain the concept of Endless Summer type material. Had Mike said 'I was the main lyricist for a large part of the Beach Boys' career and the idea of Endless Summer type songs was mine' I'd have found this perfectly acceptable. Mike deliberately phrased this in a way that suggested he was creatively more significant than Brian and THAT is what I take exception to.

That is common sense, absolutely. Yet whatever it was about that phrase and the reaction to it has led to those who legitimately did take exception to it (and can lay out reasons why) now being tagged with having an "anti-Mike bias", with hypocrisy, any number of other charges, and have had to read through 10+ pages of attempts to parse and perform surgery on the actual words spoken in order to "explain" or "interpret" the meaning intended versus what was actually said.

And the really sad part of all that is had the words been chosen more carefully, had they been phrased just a bit differently, none of the explanations and defenses and parsing-spinning would have happened. It could have been a positive, but that's not how it played out. Unfortunately that's usually not how it plays out over the past few years, and that is a total mystery why it continues to happen. It doesn't need to.

[guitarfool2002]

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love.

That's nonsense. The twisting of the words, parsing of the words, finding any excuse to "interpret" them as something other than what they actually were up to and including suggesting he was misquoted came fast and furious as soon as people started to post reactions that didn't agree with Mike's commentary. Look at who is doing the most twisting, parsing, and filibustering in this thread as opposed to reading the words exactly as they appeared, and you'll see what happens when damage control tries and fails to smooth things out.

Like clockwork.

This thread is a perfect example of the hypocrisy that is rampant on this board, and you are leading the way. Again.

Thread after thread, post after post, the subject comes up about the Beach Boys' image of cars, girls, surfing, and fun in the sum-sum-summertime. And who is usually held responsible (blamed?) for that image? Well, that would be Mike Love, of course. Mike was the one who wrote the words, pushed the concepts on the group, and maybe even bullied Brian into going in that direction when he (Brian) didn't really want to. Yep, it was Mike Love all along. Blame him. It was HIS fault.

Then, now, Mike Love takes credit for it, takes credit for the very thing he is accused of on this board. But, instead of saying, "See, I told you they were his ideas, he was responsible, it was him", no, now you don't want to give him the credit. Now you want to take it away. Hey, guitarfool2012, you have a way with words. What's that called? Having it both ways?

Mike singing pretty much solely about the fun-sun/surf concepts 150+ times a year is why some people here dislike him...

Apparently Brian Wilson doesn't mind! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$4

And this has to do what with the conversation at hand?

Looks like Jack just came back into the room...

(dig that obscure reference...)

[drbeachboy]

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love.

That's nonsense. The twisting of the words, parsing of the words, finding any excuse to "interpret" them as something other than what they actually were up to and including suggesting he was misquoted came fast and furious as soon as people started to post reactions that didn't agree with Mike's commentary. Look at who is doing the most twisting, parsing, and filibustering in this thread as opposed to reading the words exactly as they appeared, and you'll see what happens when damage control tries and fails to smooth things out.

Like clockwork.

This thread is a perfect example of the hypocrisy that is rampant on this board, and you are leading the way. Again.

Thread after thread, post after post, the subject comes up about the Beach Boys' image of cars, girls, surfing, and fun in the sum-sum-summertime. And who is usually held responsible (blamed?) for that image? Well, that would be Mike Love, of course. Mike was the one who wrote the words, pushed the concepts on the group, and maybe even bullied Brian into going in that direction when he (Brian) didn't really want to. Yep, it was Mike Love all along. Blame him. It was HIS fault.

Then, now, Mike Love takes credit for it, takes credit for the very thing he is accused of on this board. But, instead of saying, "See, I told you they were his ideas, he was responsible, it was him", no, now you don't want to give him the credit. Now you want to take it away. Hey, guitarfool2012, you have a way with words. What's that called? Having it both ways?

Mike singing pretty much solely about the fun-sun/surf concepts 150+ times a year is why some people here dislike him...

Apparently Brian Wilson doesn't mind! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$4

And no worse than Brian Wilson singing Barbara-fu**ing Ann at every show. I never understood it with his canon of music.

[Sheriff John Stone]

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love.

That's nonsense. The twisting of the words, parsing of the words, finding any excuse to "interpret" them as something other than what they actually were up to and including suggesting he was misquoted came fast and furious as soon as people started to post reactions that didn't agree with Mike's commentary. Look at who is doing the most twisting, parsing, and filibustering in this thread as opposed to reading the words exactly as they appeared, and you'll see what happens when damage control tries and fails to smooth things out.

Like clockwork.

This thread is a perfect example of the hypocrisy that is rampant on this board, and you are leading the way. Again.

Thread after thread, post after post, the subject comes up about the Beach Boys' image of cars, girls, surfing, and fun in the sum-sum-summertime. And who is usually held responsible (blamed?) for that image? Well, that would be Mike Love, of course. Mike was the one who wrote the words, pushed the concepts on the group, and maybe even bullied Brian into going in that direction when he (Brian) didn't really want to. Yep, it was Mike Love all along. Blame him. It was HIS fault.

Then, now, Mike Love takes credit for it, takes credit for the very thing he is accused of on this board. But, instead of saying, "See, I told you they were his ideas, he was responsible, it was him", no, now you don't want to give him the credit. Now you want to take it away. Hey, guitarfool2012, you have a way with words. What's that called? Having it both ways?

I know this post wasn't addressed to me but firstly I am prepared to admit openly that I consider Mike wanted to maintain the concept of Endless Summer type material. Had Mike said 'I was the main lyricist for a large part of the Beach Boys' career and the idea of Endless Summer type songs was mine' I'd have found this perfectly acceptable. Mike deliberately phrased this in a way that suggested he was creatively more significant than Brian and THAT is what I take exception to.

That is common sense, absolutely. Yet whatever it was about that phrase and the reaction to it has led to those who legitimately did take exception to it (and can lay out reasons why) now being tagged with having an "anti-Mike bias", with hypocrisy, any number of other charges, and have had to read through 10+ pages of attempts to parse and perform surgery on the actual words spoken in order to "explain" or "interpret" the meaning intended versus what was actually said.

And the really sad part of all that is had the words been chosen more carefully, had they been phrased just a bit differently, none of the explanations and defenses and parsing-spinning would have happened. It could have been a positive, but that's not how it played out. Unfortunately that's usually not how it plays out over the past few years, and that is a total mystery why it continues to happen. It doesn't need to.

It is sad isn't it. And it doesn't need to be. But, why is it so? Well, maybe because when Brian is interviewed and says something that is totally untrue (and there are times it can be factually proven), many people on this board take the position, "Oh, that's just Brian being being Brian. Funny guy. And, (cough) well, we know he's had some problems..."  But, when Mike says something, well, it has to be totally torn apart, word for word, and turned it into a multi-page Mike bashing fest. I guess THAT has to be.

[Sheriff John Stone]

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love.

That's nonsense. The twisting of the words, parsing of the words, finding any excuse to "interpret" them as something other than what they actually were up to and including suggesting he was misquoted came fast and furious as soon as people started to post reactions that didn't agree with Mike's commentary. Look at who is doing the most twisting, parsing, and filibustering in this thread as opposed to reading the words exactly as they appeared, and you'll see what happens when damage control tries and fails to smooth things out.

Like clockwork.

This thread is a perfect example of the hypocrisy that is rampant on this board, and you are leading the way. Again.

Thread after thread, post after post, the subject comes up about the Beach Boys' image of cars, girls, surfing, and fun in the sum-sum-summertime. And who is usually held responsible (blamed?) for that image? Well, that would be Mike Love, of course. Mike was the one who wrote the words, pushed the concepts on the group, and maybe even bullied Brian into going in that direction when he (Brian) didn't really want to. Yep, it was Mike Love all along. Blame him. It was HIS fault.

Then, now, Mike Love takes credit for it, takes credit for the very thing he is accused of on this board. But, instead of saying, "See, I told you they were his ideas, he was responsible, it was him", no, now you don't want to give him the credit. Now you want to take it away. Hey, guitarfool2012, you have a way with words. What's that called? Having it both ways?

Mike singing pretty much solely about the fun-sun/surf concepts 150+ times a year is why some people here dislike him...

Apparently Brian Wilson doesn't mind! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$4

And this has to do what with the conversation at hand?

Looks like Jack just came back into the room...

(dig that obscure reference...)

What does Mike singing about fun/sun/surf concepts 150+ times a year have to do with the conversation?

[Mike's Beard]

There seem to be two arguements running here against Mike.
1/ Some people generally disagree with not what he said but HOW he said it.
2/ Others don't think that Mike was leading concepts/lyrical ideas - period.

Two very different things altogther.

[guitarfool2002]

That part of the quote - "conceptually" - is being twisted, again intentionally, to criticize Mike Love.

That's nonsense. The twisting of the words, parsing of the words, finding any excuse to "interpret" them as something other than what they actually were up to and including suggesting he was misquoted came fast and furious as soon as people started to post reactions that didn't agree with Mike's commentary. Look at who is doing the most twisting, parsing, and filibustering in this thread as opposed to reading the words exactly as they appeared, and you'll see what happens when damage control tries and fails to smooth things out.

Like clockwork.

This thread is a perfect example of the hypocrisy that is rampant on this board, and you are leading the way. Again.

Thread after thread, post after post, the subject comes up about the Beach Boys' image of cars, girls, surfing, and fun in the sum-sum-summertime. And who is usually held responsible (blamed?) for that image? Well, that would be Mike Love, of course. Mike was the one who wrote the words, pushed the concepts on the group, and maybe even bullied Brian into going in that direction when he (Brian) didn't really want to. Yep, it was Mike Love all along. Blame him. It was HIS fault.

Then, now, Mike Love takes credit for it, takes credit for the very thing he is accused of on this board. But, instead of saying, "See, I told you they were his ideas, he was responsible, it was him", no, now you don't want to give him the credit. Now you want to take it away. Hey, guitarfool2012, you have a way with words. What's that called? Having it both ways?

Ahh, here we go, hypocrisy, double standard, etc. I'm the hypocrite on the board, yet again. Prove it. Then we can talk about some hypocrisy on this board hardly anyone knows about. Make sure you check on that carefully before opening that Pandora's Box.

On topic: When The Beach Boys were getting slaughtered in the late 60's for that image of surf-sun-cars-girls, when all of the things that made them superstars were really getting criticized and dismissed, where was Mike Love to defend it publicly?

Guess I shouldn't expect a reply to this.

EDIT: I didn't expect a reply, but if someone calls me out as the face of hypocrisy on this forum, at least have the guts to back it up. If that's not the case, Sheriff, get off the pot.