Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000

[?]

I don't think any of them have anything left to say after 45 years that they haven't said already.  The problem is some of you guys are never satisfied with the answers you're given.

[Mikie]

Exactamundo.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't think any of them have anything left to say after 45 years that they haven't said already.  The problem is some of you guys are never satisfied with the answers you're given.

In regard to your first sentence, Brian hasn't even touched the surface in discussing the specific SMiLE songs. In regard to your second sentence, you're probably right, but, boy, wouldn't it be fun.

[grillo]

I finally got some time to do a quick edit of H&V similar to the acetate version that Andy described to see how it flowed, and even though it's a rough, I really enjoyed the sequence. Thanks for describing it for us all Andy!  

Sounds Great. I love your false barnyard/barnyard. Never heard that before. Not super keen on the edit after IIGS, but overall its awesome!

[Tricycle Rider]

IIGS works better if there's a bit of a gap before it, and there's no piano lead-in, and-wait for it-it fades out TSS style!

Regardless, I don't think that's the final version. I don't think there is a final version. Not the exploding cantina, not Smiley, not BWPS. H&V as it was intended for SMiLE or the original single (ok, maybe that) was never finished, and it never will be. To me.

I agree with you. I actually prefer the cantina version myself. This version is based on the description that Andy gave us of the acetate he heard (not including the Barnyard ending which is mine)

I think you're right about H&V never being finished. It's like trying to add up an equation as the numbers are morphing. Poor Brian.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Good Vibrations went to #1 in December of '66. I think that's when he went from being eager make an LP better than Pet Sounds to making a single better than Good Vibrations. Who knows? But it certainly could have fueled his dilema.

I just like talking about Smile. 

Okay, I think I've got it all out of my system.

[Tricycle Rider]

I finally got some time to do a quick edit of H&V similar to the acetate version that Andy described to see how it flowed, and even though it's a rough, I really enjoyed the sequence. Thanks for describing it for us all Andy!  

Sounds Great. I love your false barnyard/barnyard. Never heard that before. Not super keen on the edit after IIGS, but overall its awesome!

Thanks grillo!
I know i'll catch hell for saying this, but I honestly think this is where the "Barnyard" lyrics belong. Brian played the H&V demo for "Humble Harv" 15 days after recording the other track, and only 10 days before recording "My Only Sunshine". Considering that he had to have something written, or at least conceived before the session, I think there's a good chance this is the feel he was hearing in his head when he played the song for Harv. Notice how it swings, and how suddenly, the piano from the demo is no longer a problem. Then again, as always, there's no applying reason to anything when it comes to Brian and SMiLE.

I agree about the edit after "Great Shape"! I'm not very good with that time stretching stuff, and i couldn't get the saxophone and tape explosion the way I wanted it. I really wish I was better at that!

[Tricycle Rider]

Good Vibrations went to #1 in December of '66. I think that's when he went from being eager make an LP better than Pet Sounds to making a single better than Good Vibrations. Who knows? But it certainly could have fueled his dilema.

I just like talking about Smile.  

Okay, I think I've got it all out of my system.

Great observation Bubba...I never thought about that before, but it really makes a lot of sense.

So you think you've got it all out of your system eh? (in my best german accent!)  

[monicker]

While i see what he was going for with the Cantina version, i’ve never understood how the edit we have was ever considered anything remotely finished at any point. The only reason i say this is that i just find it to be much too short. It feels like it's missing stuff and especially something big, something like Prelude to Fade. I also don't see how it could have been a single on any planet. It would seem that Brian would have been really concerned with topping himself for his next single after GV, and Cantina seems to be going in the right direction to achieve that, but it still had a long ways to go, i think.

As for sheriff's idea of sitting Brian down to discuss Smile in depth...besides that being completely unrealistic, i think that's just a bad idea because suppose he starts throwing out sh*t we've never heard before, stuff he's never said, little insights into songs and structure, etc...what, we're suddenly going to put stock in what Brian Wilson is saying? If we can barely trust a word that comes out of his mouth, new Smile info from him is just gonna open more cans of worms and add more confusion to the murky Smile story, being probed about it 45 years after the fact. That is if he even gives any answers that are more than his short, stock responses. I think, for the most part, Brian is a totally worthless interview.

[hypehat]

I don't think any of them have anything left to say after 45 years that they haven't said already.  The problem is some of you guys are never satisfied with the answers you're given.

In regard to your first sentence, Brian hasn't even touched the surface in discussing the specific SMiLE songs. In regard to your second sentence, you're probably right, but, boy, wouldn't it be fun.

Well, what could you realistically ask him?

Brian, did you ever intend to make H&V a two-sided single?

"Yeah, we put it in the boxset. It's great. Great harmonies. The boys really sang on that"

They sure did, Brian. But in 1966? Or 1967?

"Oh, I never finished Heroes And Villains. Too many little sections. I couldn't complete one song. It bummed me out."

Er, but you must have had a plan?

"I was taking too many drugs and it got to me. I couldn't complete it."

Let's get down to brass tacks, Brian. About the use of motifs, can you explain the thematic significance of Do You Like Worms, Heroes & Villains, Vegetables, and Wonderful have similar bridge or fade sections?

"I was experimenting a lot with 'feels', like, little melodic sections that I groove on and they become songs. Wonderful, oh man, that's a beautiful song.

Ok, let's talk about that. Why did you record it four times?

"I recorded it four times?! It's on Smiley Smile, right? I was never satisfied with anything. I was very depressed, I started hearing voices - auditory hallucinations, you know? - and they said things like ARUBA JAMAICA OH I'M GONNA KILL YA when I was in the shower and stuff."

Well I have this version here which is kinda a jazz thing *plays Rock With Me Henry Version* and there's all these little weird vocal inserts for it... Why, may I ask? To what purpose? You must have known, Brian. You don't just re-record something ad naseum, something that was arguably perfect the first time, in various weird ways, without a reason! ...Do you?

*Nods and smiles wanly at stereo for a while* "Carl sang that. Carl was a great singer."

[halblaineisgood]

.

[hypehat]

My point is, it's not like no-one has asked Brian about what he was doing when he wrote this, how he was feeling when he wrote that, what shoes he was wearing, how X went into Y, why Smile collapsed, whether he ever made up with Jules Siegels girlfriend with the bad ESP, whether he ever made out with Jules Siegels girlfriend with the bad ESP, did this song have lyrics, how was this supposed to go, etc, etc. He's been dealing with these questions for FORTY YEARS.

You reckon NO-ONE attempted to have a serious chat with him about Smile in either 2003 or 2011 about how this sh*t went down?

[SMiLE Brian]

I don't think any of them have anything left to say after 45 years that they haven't said already.  The problem is some of you guys are never satisfied with the answers you're given.

In regard to your first sentence, Brian hasn't even touched the surface in discussing the specific SMiLE songs. In regard to your second sentence, you're probably right, but, boy, wouldn't it be fun.

Well, what could you realistically ask him?

Brian, did you ever intend to make H&V a two-sided single?

"Yeah, we put it in the boxset. It's great. Great harmonies. The boys really sang on that"

They sure did, Brian. But in 1966? Or 1967?

"Oh, I never finished Heroes And Villains. Too many little sections. I couldn't complete one song. It bummed me out."

Er, but you must have had a plan?

"I was taking too many drugs and it got to me. I couldn't complete it."

Let's get down to brass tacks, Brian. About the use of motifs, can you explain the thematic significance of Do You Like Worms, Heroes & Villains, Vegetables, and Wonderful have similar bridge or fade sections?

"I was experimenting a lot with 'feels', like, little melodic sections that I groove on and they become songs. Wonderful, oh man, that's a beautiful song.

Ok, let's talk about that. Why did you record it four times?

"I recorded it four times?! It's on Smiley Smile, right? I was never satisfied with anything. I was very depressed, I started hearing voices - auditory hallucinations, you know? - and they said things like ARUBA JAMAICA OH I'M GONNA KILL YA when I was in the shower and stuff."

Well I have this version here which is kinda a jazz thing *plays Rock With Me Henry Version* and there's all these little weird vocal inserts for it... Why, may I ask? To what purpose? You must have known, Brian. You don't just re-record something ad naseum, something that was arguably perfect the first time, in various weird ways, without a reason! ...Do you?

*Nods and smiles wanly at stereo for a while* "Carl sang that. Carl was a great singer."

Great post, reminds me of your "collaborating with Brian" thread.

[seltaeb1012002]

I started hearing voices - auditory hallucinations, you know? - and they said things like ARUBA JAMAICA OH I'M GONNA KILL YA when I was in the shower and stuff."

Hahahaha. Ah man, so wrong, yet so hilarious.

[Firemellow]

Post of the month.   

I don't think any of them have anything left to say after 45 years that they haven't said already.  The problem is some of you guys are never satisfied with the answers you're given.

In regard to your first sentence, Brian hasn't even touched the surface in discussing the specific SMiLE songs. In regard to your second sentence, you're probably right, but, boy, wouldn't it be fun.

Well, what could you realistically ask him?

Brian, did you ever intend to make H&V a two-sided single?

"Yeah, we put it in the boxset. It's great. Great harmonies. The boys really sang on that"

They sure did, Brian. But in 1966? Or 1967?

"Oh, I never finished Heroes And Villains. Too many little sections. I couldn't complete one song. It bummed me out."

Er, but you must have had a plan?

"I was taking too many drugs and it got to me. I couldn't complete it."

Let's get down to brass tacks, Brian. About the use of motifs, can you explain the thematic significance of Do You Like Worms, Heroes & Villains, Vegetables, and Wonderful have similar bridge or fade sections?

"I was experimenting a lot with 'feels', like, little melodic sections that I groove on and they become songs. Wonderful, oh man, that's a beautiful song.

Ok, let's talk about that. Why did you record it four times?

"I recorded it four times?! It's on Smiley Smile, right? I was never satisfied with anything. I was very depressed, I started hearing voices - auditory hallucinations, you know? - and they said things like ARUBA JAMAICA OH I'M GONNA KILL YA when I was in the shower and stuff."

Well I have this version here which is kinda a jazz thing *plays Rock With Me Henry Version* and there's all these little weird vocal inserts for it... Why, may I ask? To what purpose? You must have known, Brian. You don't just re-record something ad naseum, something that was arguably perfect the first time, in various weird ways, without a reason! ...Do you?

*Nods and smiles wanly at stereo for a while* "Carl sang that. Carl was a great singer."

[EgoHanger1966]

I don't think any of them have anything left to say after 45 years that they haven't said already.  The problem is some of you guys are never satisfied with the answers you're given.

In regard to your first sentence, Brian hasn't even touched the surface in discussing the specific SMiLE songs. In regard to your second sentence, you're probably right, but, boy, wouldn't it be fun.

Well, what could you realistically ask him?

Brian, did you ever intend to make H&V a two-sided single?

"Yeah, we put it in the boxset. It's great. Great harmonies. The boys really sang on that"

They sure did, Brian. But in 1966? Or 1967?

"Oh, I never finished Heroes And Villains. Too many little sections. I couldn't complete one song. It bummed me out."

Er, but you must have had a plan?

"I was taking too many drugs and it got to me. I couldn't complete it."

Let's get down to brass tacks, Brian. About the use of motifs, can you explain the thematic significance of Do You Like Worms, Heroes & Villains, Vegetables, and Wonderful have similar bridge or fade sections?

"I was experimenting a lot with 'feels', like, little melodic sections that I groove on and they become songs. Wonderful, oh man, that's a beautiful song.

Ok, let's talk about that. Why did you record it four times?

"I recorded it four times?! It's on Smiley Smile, right? I was never satisfied with anything. I was very depressed, I started hearing voices - auditory hallucinations, you know? - and they said things like ARUBA JAMAICA OH I'M GONNA KILL YA when I was in the shower and stuff."

Well I have this version here which is kinda a jazz thing *plays Rock With Me Henry Version* and there's all these little weird vocal inserts for it... Why, may I ask? To what purpose? You must have known, Brian. You don't just re-record something ad naseum, something that was arguably perfect the first time, in various weird ways, without a reason! ...Do you?

*Nods and smiles wanly at stereo for a while* "Carl sang that. Carl was a great singer."

This is brilliant!

[Sheriff John Stone]

You reckon NO-ONE attempted to have a serious chat with him about Smile in either 2003 or 2011 about how this sh*t went down?

No, I don't. To the best of my knowledge, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think anyone attempted an interview, or a series of interviews, to sit down and take each SMiLE song, one at a time, and get Brian to tell EVERYTHING he remembers about the recording of the song. While most interviewers have failed in getting Brian to open up about anything, I am (foolishly?) optimistic that there is SOMEBODY out there who could pull it off, somebody who Brian respects.

[Shady]

How do you know that Darian, (a smile expert?) didn't sit down with Brian and go through smile song by song.

Considering the amount of smile obsessives in the beach boys community I doubt they would have released a completed smile album without consulting Brian, in depth on it.

[hypehat]

You reckon NO-ONE attempted to have a serious chat with him about Smile in either 2003 or 2011 about how this sh*t went down?

No, I don't. To the best of my knowledge, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think anyone attempted an interview, or a series of interviews, to sit down and take each SMiLE song, one at a time, and get Brian to tell EVERYTHING he remembers about the recording of the song. While most interviewers have failed in getting Brian to open up about anything, I am (foolishly?) optimistic that there is SOMEBODY out there who could pull it off, somebody who Brian respects.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv2iTjYWma0

This documentary may interest you, have you seen it?

If you purchase the DVD, you get many lovely extras, including Van Dyke asking Brian about Smile songs - I remember this choice tidbit.

VDP: Brian, what were you thinking, or feeling, when writing the music to Surf's Up?

BW: I was feeling a lot of love. [Long pause] Yeah, a lot of love.


I know it's nice to feel that somewhere up there, Brian has The Answer, but he's unwilling or unable to share that information with any one. My money's on the latter.

[guitarfool2002]

How do you know that Darian, (a smile expert?) didn't sit down with Brian and go through smile song by song.

Considering the amount of smile obsessives in the beach boys community I doubt they would have released a completed smile album without consulting Brian, in depth on it.

8 years or so have passed since this was discussed, but it can be confirmed by both published and word-of-mouth sources how the process worked. If I get any of it wrong, feel free to correct, but I'm certain this is how it was:

Darian had loaded the various Smile songs, fragments, sections, and whatnot into his DAW-laptop, and when he would get together with Brian during pre-production to assemble a cohesive "whole" from what existed, he was able to sequence those fragments and segments in any order so they could audition certain ways of putting the sections together. They were both able (along with whoever else was involved, which would later be Van Dyke) to hear almost on the fly what these sections would sound like in various sequences and how it affected the musical flow.

Certain musical parts were discovered which had been buried, masked, or missing from what was generally known to exist of those songs, and things like a clarinet countermelody or whatever else were incorporated into the final arrangements.

So the answer is "yes", Brian did in fact go through the process of hearing, remembering, and working through each of these Smile fragments and songs and that was the basis of the final product which we heard live and eventually got on the studio recording.

Similar processes were done for trying to capture and match the original instrumental sounds so they could be reproduced on a live stage without having to haul, say, 10 different acoustic keyboard and mallet instruments to each show,  and the original tapes were the basis of that.

And of course, the newly-written segues and instrumental interludes were added and composed by the same team, including Van Dyke, Darian, and Brian whose melodies were the basis of the incidental music.

That's different from having a magazine writer sitting down with Brian and a stereo and playing Smile tracks for Brian as he provides rolling commentary on each one, but having "listening sessions" in preparation for Smile and playing with the sequencing and basing musical decisions on what was remembered from the original ideas in 66-67 was a part of the process, no doubt at all on that point.

One of them, perhaps even Brian in an interview, specifically mentioned the benefit of having the digital technology in 2003 to play around with the order of those fragments on the fly, which to do in 1967 involved tape splices, test edits and mixes, and a much more involved and longer process. So technology existed too which made it more possible to piece things together now than it did then. A process that could take, say, 20 minutes to just audition a certain order in '67 could be done in seconds.

[Shady]

Fantastic, thanks for that guitarfool.

The re-recording Smile isn't a perfect album and since we got an official smile release it's (bar a few tracks) been rendered obsolete in my collection. I still have a lot respect to Brian's band for doing such an incredible job replicating those original tracks, even though I think they sound a little too perfect it was still one hell of an achievement.

[Sheriff John Stone]

So the answer is "yes", Brian did in fact go through the process of hearing, remembering, and working through each of these Smile fragments and songs and that was the basis of the final product which we heard live and eventually got on the studio recording.

That's different from having a magazine writer sitting down with Brian and a stereo and playing Smile tracks for Brian as he provides rolling commentary on each one, but having "listening sessions" in preparation for Smile and playing with the sequencing and basing musical decisions on what was remembered from the original ideas in 66-67 was a part of the process, no doubt at all on that point.

guitarfool, I apologize for the way I edited your post, but I just wanted to highlight it as it pertains to my point.

In my opinion, there is a substantial difference in the Darian/Brian BWPS sessions and some in-depth interviews, as you have also noted - and I'm not directing my comments at you. First, as an admitted skeptic of Brian's participation in the whole BWPS saga, we don't know to what extent Brian and Darian actually discussed the tracks. Of course they had to hash things out to SOME extent, but it wouldn't surprise me if Brian simply supplied one word/one sentence answers to Darian on many occasions.

I've often gotten a mental picture of Darian at his laptop and Brian sitting on a couch, and Darian asking, "Was 'He Gives Speeches' a part of SMiLE..."? And, Brian simply responding, "No, I junked that...." And that was the end of that. Or Darian asking, "Should we work on 'With Me Tonight'..."? And Brian saying, "No, I don't think I wanna use that...".

I don't doubt that Brian guided Darian and put some pieces together. I'm not that ignorant. But, Darian's assembling of and sequencing of BWPS is not THAT complicated and didn't differ SIGNIFICANTLY from many "SMiLE scholars" over the years. There weren't many surprises, and even fewer surprises that we heard came directly from Brian, other than a lyric here or a link there.

I've read and seen pretty many interviews regarding BWPS, and I didn't get the feeling that Darian and Brian had long, drawn out conversations about the material. That's just my take. Actually I saw just the opposite, with Darian taking the project and running with it, with Brian nodding his approval.

I got the same feeling with the boxed set. Again there was obviously some input from Brian, but limited. I guess my point is, Brian has never really opened up extensively - in print or on film - where he takes each individual song and DESCRIBES what he had in mind, what he was doing with it. I never visualized that as a painful experience. Would Brian be "coming down" or "lowering himself" to talk about SMiLE so many years later? In the right setting with the right interviewer and the right refreshments and the right money, why couldn't something like that happen?

[hypehat]

Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

I know it sounds silly but I don't think anybody ever forced the issue because, you know, it's Brian Wilson. Brian was always strange when it came to SMiLE, and I would imagine he shut down that subject whenever it was mentioned. Certainly you've read some of his weird, untrue responses over the years when he was approached about the subject.

It's possible that Brian's forgotten a substantial amount, and, as somebody noted in an above post, we wouldn't believe his answers anyway.

I don't have a good answer as to who the best person would be. If I had to choose one, it would be Darian. They have a good working relationship, Darian knows the material, Brian trusts him, Melinda trusts him. I'm beating a dead horse and I'm going to get off it, but what is so difficult or inappropriate or ILLOGICAL to meet in Brian's living room or at the kitchen table or at the piano - AND JUST TALK ABOUT SMILE!

[Don Malcolm]

So the answer is "yes", Brian did in fact go through the process of hearing, remembering, and working through each of these Smile fragments and songs and that was the basis of the final product which we heard live and eventually got on the studio recording.

That's different from having a magazine writer sitting down with Brian and a stereo and playing Smile tracks for Brian as he provides rolling commentary on each one, but having "listening sessions" in preparation for Smile and playing with the sequencing and basing musical decisions on what was remembered from the original ideas in 66-67 was a part of the process, no doubt at all on that point.

guitarfool, I apologize for the way I edited your post, but I just wanted to highlight it as it pertains to my point.

In my opinion, there is a substantial difference in the Darian/Brian BWPS sessions and some in-depth interviews, as you have also noted - and I'm not directing my comments at you. First, as an admitted skeptic of Brian's participation in the whole BWPS saga, we don't know to what extent Brian and Darian actually discussed the tracks. Of course they had to hash things out to SOME extent, but it wouldn't surprise me if Brian simply supplied one word/one sentence answers to Darian on many occasions.

I've often gotten a mental picture of Darian at his laptop and Brian sitting on a couch, and Darian asking, "Was 'He Gives Speeches' a part of SMiLE..."? And, Brian simply responding, "No, I junked that...." And that was the end of that. Or Darian asking, "Should we work on 'With Me Tonight'..."? And Brian saying, "No, I don't think I wanna use that...".

I don't doubt that Brian guided Darian and put some pieces together. I'm not that ignorant. But, Darian's assembling of and sequencing of BWPS is not THAT complicated and didn't differ SIGNIFICANTLY from many "SMiLE scholars" over the years. There weren't many surprises, and even fewer surprises that we heard came directly from Brian, other than a lyric here or a link there.

I've read and seen pretty many interviews regarding BWPS, and I didn't get the feeling that Darian and Brian had long, drawn out conversations about the material. That's just my take. Actually I saw just the opposite, with Darian taking the project and running with it, with Brian nodding his approval.

I got the same feeling with the boxed set. Again there was obviously some input from Brian, but limited. I guess my point is, Brian has never really opened up extensively - in print or on film - where he takes each individual song and DESCRIBES what he had in mind, what he was doing with it. I never visualized that as a painful experience. Would Brian be "coming down" or "lowering himself" to talk about SMiLE so many years later? In the right setting with the right interviewer and the right refreshments and the right money, why couldn't something like that happen?

First off, all kinds of interesting thoughts to be found in this thread, ranging from hard-core research to unhinged speculation, with those two extremes occasionally merged together in an inspired delirium.

Which is quite probably the state of mind Brian was in as he got trapped in the looking-glass of SMILE. The fact of that particular type of entrapment might well be the reason why he will never be able to articulate the types of things that the Sheriff (and many, many of the rest of us) would dearly love to hear coming from his mouth.

It's a miracle that a reasonably credible completed version of SMILE emerged, and while it's fun to go back to the looking-glass, we have to remember that for those involved with the project, it's not so fun. They went back through and emerged with a reasonable facsimile. Knowing EXACTLY what went awry with H&V et al is fascinating, to be sure, but how much trauma revisitation should anyone in that situation be forced to do?

Paul Williams used to insist that the Smiley version of H&V was a miracle simply because Brian finally stripped it down and made it into a single release in the mundane world of rock music in 1967. For many of the rest of us, the "fantastic" world of the song in its perpetually liminal state is much more alluring. Williams also said don't let anyone watch you paint, because there's a good chance that they'll be disappointed with the finished product.

But still...knowing exactly how H&V went through its long and winding road is something more than cautionary...it's the tale of a star-crossed creative process that, like David Anderle's painting of Brian, has captured our souls. Perhaps Mr. Desper or Alan or one of our several dedicated and musically sophisticated posters here can take on that project and make an aural documentary about it.

However, whoever does so should be prepared for the fact that it will never put this issue to rest...

  (You're under arrest!!)