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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: mistermono on March 01, 2013, 08:53:00 AM



Title: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: mistermono on March 01, 2013, 08:53:00 AM
http://recordmecca.com/store/museum-quality-collectibles/beach-boys-8-original-smile-acetates-from-the-collection-of-van-dyke-parks/ (http://recordmecca.com/store/museum-quality-collectibles/beach-boys-8-original-smile-acetates-from-the-collection-of-van-dyke-parks/)

Beach Boys – 8 Original “Smile” Acetates from the collection of Van Dyke Parks
A collection of eight original acetates from the Beach Boys' unfinished album Smile; from the collection of Van Dyke Parks, Brian Wilson's collaborator on the project.  We acquired these unique discs from Durrie Parks, Van Dyke's ex wife (Van Dyke and Durrie lived at Brian Wilson's house during the recording of Smile.)  Smile is the most legendary unreleased album of all time.  Intended as the follow up to the Beach Boys classic Pet Sounds, Wilson worked on Smile throughout 1966 and '67, finally abandoning it in favor of the much less ambitious Smiley Smile.
These discs are truly fascinating pieces of the Smile puzzle.  Each contains a part or multiple parts of a song; together they illustrate how Wilson recorded each of the songs for Smile in pieces, and planned to fit the individual elements together--like puzzle pieces--after the fact.  You can hear this in finished songs like "Heroes and Villians."
Much has been written about why Smile was abandoned--but from discs like these and the recently released Smile box set, it's easy to see how Wilson could have lost the plot.  He recorded endless amounts of material, which could have been fit together in countless ways. At some point it probably just became overwhelming, and easier to start over.
Some but not all of the material on these discs was eventually released as part of the Smile box set.  Below is a fairly detailed explanation of what is contained on each; upon request we'll forward a more detailed breakdown.  None have labels, most have grease pencil markings and/or a scrap of paper with a partial title taped on with clear tape.  All are in G condition, and play through with surface noise but no skips.  A digital transfer of the music is included, as is a letter of authenticity for each disc from Durrie Parks.  A truly unique and museum-quality collection.
(All titles as on Smile box set; all 10" discs unless noted)
Disc 1/Side A/  1.  0:42-1:10 portion of “Cabin Essence” (20/20 version.)/ 2. “Heroes & Villains Verse (Master Take)” (with two more seconds of count-off  than box set .)  3.“Heroes & Villains Barnyard (Master Take)” (with four fewer seconds of count-off and a 10 second earlier fade fade than box set.)  // Side B: 1.  Same as A Side with the “one” included in the count off. 2. Same as A Side. 3. Blank. (side 2 scored but playable; edge is bent/chipped before grooves begin, not affecting play.)
 Disc 2/ 1. 0:42-1:10 portion of “Cabin Essence” (20/20 version.) 2. Two versions of “Do You Like Worms (Bicycle Rider)” with alternate vocals to box set. 3. First 45 seconds of “Heroes and Villains”. Vocal sounds  different than commercial release.
 Disc 3/1. Alternate version of “Cabin Essence Verse“ (different from box set.) 2.  0:42-1:10 portion of “Cabinessence” (20/20 version.)  3.  Alternate version of final minute of Cabin Essence (different from box set.)
 Disc 4/ 1. Alternate version of “Do You Like Worms” that jumps back and forth from the “Roll Plymouth Rock” part and “Bicycle Rider” part.  (Different sequence/medly than on box set.)
 Disc 5/ 1. Alternate version of “Heroes And Villains Verse: Master Take” (different from box set)
Disc 6/ 1.  Final 40 seconds of “Heroes & Villians: Prelude to Fade” from the boxset.  (7")
Disc 7/ 1.  Alternate version of “Wind Chimes” (different from box set.)  (7")
 Disc 8/ 1.  Backing track “Time To Get Alone” (unreleased instrumental version, cut by Brian Wilson in 1967 for Redwood, who became Three Dog Night.  Brian was producing them for Brother Records, but the other Beach Boys wanted the track for themselves and insisted Brian save it.  Appeared later on 20/20, but this version has no vocals and an extra 20 seconds at end.)
- See more at: http://recordmecca.com/store/museum-quality-collectibles/beach-boys-8-original-smile-acetates-from-the-collection-of-van-dyke-parks/#sthash.eiEfU2Ey.dpuf


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: seltaeb1012002 on March 01, 2013, 08:58:54 AM
Wow.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 01, 2013, 09:02:12 AM
 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o


Holy crap. That collection is one of the undisputed "Holy Grails" of the entire Smile saga.

I hope someone transferred these to a digital format or archive before they get sold.

Question...It's been speculated for years what exactly is on those discs, so after looking over the descriptions is there anything there which either does not appear on the Smile box set or has not appeared elsewhere up to this point?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 01, 2013, 09:08:46 AM
It's hard for me to believe this is real. It isn't April 1 yet! So these are supposedly the actual acetates that for years were rumored to be in Durrie Parks' possession?  This was/is the one of the holy grails of Beach Boys record collecting! And these acetates are surfacing and available to the public for the first time? Hard to believe.

Only around the time of the Smile release in 2011 did we know these indeed exisited. Someone (Alan Boyd?) verified that the compilers for the Smile box set had listened to these Durrie acetates and determined that they did not contain material that hasn't been heard before (albeit in better sound quality).

But still. To have these in the collection.......zowee!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 01, 2013, 09:14:28 AM
It's hard for me to believe this is real. It isn't April 1 yet! So these are supposedly the actual acetates that for years were rumored to be in Durrie Parks' possession?  This was/is the one of the holy grails of Beach Boys record collecting! And these acetates are surfacing and available to the public for the first time? Hard to believe.

Only around the time of the Smile release in 2011 did we know these indeed exisited. Someone (Alan Boyd?) verified that the compilers for the Smile box set had listened to these Durrie acetates and determined that they did not contain material that hasn't been heard before (albeit in better sound quality).

But still. To have these in the collection.......zowee!

Thanks for confirming that, Mikie! I wondered since I first heard about them exactly what was on the discs, and whether there may be missing vocals, lyrics, "unbooted" stuff, etc.

What a collectable, considering what these were and the descriptions of Brian hosting listening parties where he'd play acetates like this for guests, just an amazing lot of items. I'm amazed they survived, considering how fragile acetates were.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 01, 2013, 09:29:36 AM
WOW is RIGHT!!!

These have me especially curious:

Disc 2/ 2. Two versions of “Do You Like Worms (Bicycle Rider)” with alternate vocals to box set.
Disc 2/ 3. First 45 seconds of “Heroes and Villains”. Vocal sounds different than commercial release.

Disc 3/ 1. Alternate version of “Cabin Essence Verse“ (different from box set.)
Disc 3/ 3. Alternate version of final minute of Cabin Essence (different from box set.)

Disc 4/ 1. Alternate version of “Do You Like Worms” that jumps back and forth from the “Roll Plymouth Rock” part
              and “Bicycle Rider” part.  (Different sequence/medly than on box set.)

Disc 5/ 1. Alternate version of “Heroes And Villains Verse: Master Take” (different from box set)

Disc 7/ 1. Alternate version of “Wind Chimes” (different from box set.)  (7")

Again, WOW!  :)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Aegir on March 01, 2013, 09:30:45 AM
Do you like worms with alternate vocals. Yes.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 01, 2013, 09:40:12 AM
Real interesting. Somebody with deep pockets will get great chunk of history that is sure
to appreciate in value. $$$$$

I love listening to all the bits and pieces of BB archives but no doubt there is nothing here
that I wouldn't already have...and if I want to listen to a couple of seconds of  One, two, One two
three, FOUR -- well I have plenty of material that will fit that need.  :lol

Sea of Tunes discs have puh-l-enty of stuff to keep me entertained. Thats is a real gold mine there, pard.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Roger Ryan on March 01, 2013, 09:56:49 AM
If Alan Boyd did, indeed, audition these acetates, then I feel pretty sure that the "alternate" stuff isn't radically different from what we've already heard.

"Do You Like Worms" vocals probably have some slightly different chanting; I seriously doubt any lost verse vocals are present.

The alternate "Wind Chimes" could well be the track as presented on the Good Vibrations Box Set (but not the SMiLE box set).

I admit that alternate editing of the "Do You Like Worms" segments sounds interesting and I'd be happy to hear any slight variations in "H&V" and "Cabinessence"...but not for 10, 000!

One final note: Referring to the excerpt of "Cabinessence" as coming from the "20/20" version makes the discs seem like fakes since neither Van Dyke nor Durrie would have had access to acetates in 1968 when that version of the song was completed.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on March 01, 2013, 09:57:14 AM
Quote
"A digital transfer of the music is included…"

Even more enticing!

As for the track listing, these have me going (if this is a prank, it's good!):

Disc 2)      2. Two versions of “Do You Like Worms (Bicycle Rider)” with alternate vocals to box set.
                3. First 45 seconds of “Heroes and Villains”. Vocal sounds  different than commercial release.

Disc 3)      1. Alternate version of “Cabin Essence Verse“ (different from box set.)
                3. Alternate version of final minute of Cabin Essence (different from box set.)

Disc 4)      1. Alternate version of “Do You Like Worms” that jumps back and forth from the “Roll Plymouth Rock” part and “Bicycle Rider” part.  (Different sequence/medly than on box set.)

Disc 5)      1. Alternate version of “Heroes And Villains Verse: Master Take” (different from box set)

Disc 7)      1.  Alternate version of  “Wind Chimes” (different from box set.)  (7")

Disc 8)      1.  Backing track “Time To Get Alone” (unreleased instrumental version (… this version has no vocals and an extra 20 seconds at end.)




Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: monicker on March 01, 2013, 10:04:26 AM
Man, i am getting a really heavy emotional response when looking at the pictures of those acetates.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 01, 2013, 10:10:00 AM
I've listened to them. I hope to have a detailed write-up of them later.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: DonnyL on March 01, 2013, 10:17:19 AM
I must 'come out' here ... I am the one the started the 'rumor' back in the '90s.

It was not a rumor; I knew Durrie personally during this time, and she told me casually about the acetates on a few occasions. A year or two later, I innocently mentioned it on a forum. I lost touch with her for awhile, and I think some people probably contacted her about it ... so I felt kind of weird.

In any case, this may be a happy ending -- I hope she got some decent $$$ for these things, and hopefully someone will buy them & archive them for all to hear!

Personally, I think these are very important because they represent some of the only original BW mixes of the era. I lost my chance to hear 'em many years ago!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 01, 2013, 10:20:06 AM
If Alan Boyd did, indeed, audition these acetates, then I feel pretty sure that the "alternate" stuff isn't radically different from what we've already heard.

Notice I said "(Alan Boyd?)" with a question mark. That is an assumption on my part. AGD said on this board that "they" (assuming Boyd, Linett, Wolfe) had listened to the acetates and came up with nothing of value. I'm paraphrasing here.

Before that, it was rumored that Durrie had found the acetates in storage.  

There have been pranks about stuff like this in the past.  If it is a prank, like John said, it's a good one!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 01, 2013, 10:45:06 AM
This is a rhetorical question; I already know the answer. And my intent is NOT to hammer Brian or Melinda. But, why don't they - Brian & Melinda - just write a check for $10,000 or whatever and buy the acetates?

Yes, I come from the perspective of a Brian Wilson fan and BB diehard who never wrote or performed a note of music. I can't relate to Brian Wilson or any other genius or any other great musician. But, I still have a wish.

SMiLE is always going to be one of the great myths, unreleased albums, mysteries, "what if's", etc. Its spectacle was slightly diluted by the 1993 boxed set, and even more with the 2011 SMiLE Sessions boxed set. But, if I wrote it or produced it, or was married to that guy, I'd want to own EVERYTHING there is related to SMiLE. I'd want to accumulate it, document it, and preserve it for future generations. I realize Brian and Melinda have other pressing issues in their lives, and accumulating SMiLE pieces ain't one of them. But, I always wished they would've hired somebody to do the job. That person would be responsible for tracking down all SMiLE-related material. They would've investigated the 1967 David Oppenheim tapes, all bootlegs, all radio programs, all studio tapes, all photos, all magazines, all interviews, all album cover slicks - and all acetates.

Brian said in more than one interview that SMiLE was the best work he'd ever done. Of course most of us on this board agree. But, now, parts of it are all over the place. Yeah, we have most of the music on the boxed set, but you know what I mean. Does anybody feel the same way. Do you ever wish more effort would('ve) been made to investigate, track down, and accumulate ALL things SMiLE, to be put in one place, into one home if you will? We're talking about Brian's art here, something that mattered a lot to him, and probably still does. Money should not be a factor...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on March 01, 2013, 10:51:39 AM
Regardless of money, doubt Brian cares.
Melinda would if there was exclusive stuff on these...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on March 01, 2013, 10:54:45 AM
http://recordmecca.com/rmsite/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Durrie-Parks-2.jpeg

Is this her signature? Looks like it's signed by a Jon something. Also weird is that you can put them in your cart forc $10000. One would think these are auction quality.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 01, 2013, 10:57:30 AM
Got to head out for some lottery tickets!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 01, 2013, 11:01:37 AM
Regardless of money, doubt Brian cares.
Melinda would if there was exclusive stuff on these...

And, of course, you are correct. That would be the answer to the rhetorical question.

But, why DON'T they care? You care. many people care. I care. Actually, I would make it a priority. If I was married to Brian Wilson, I would make it a MISSION to accumulate ALL things SMiLE. And, that's not a criticism of Melinda. It's something I wondered about for years.

A semi-related question, and not to be critical of Brian. Would McCartney care, or Paul Simon, or Dylan? Care about preserving their greatest work? Just thinking out loud...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 01, 2013, 11:05:55 AM
http://recordmecca.com/rmsite/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Durrie-Parks-2.jpeg

Is this her signature? Looks like it's signed by a Jon something.

It says "January 2013".


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on March 01, 2013, 11:12:50 AM
http://recordmecca.com/rmsite/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Durrie-Parks-2.jpeg

Is this her signature? Looks like it's signed by a Jon something.

It says "January 2013".
As usual, I should not be writing online before I've had my coffee.

Thanks   :'(


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on March 01, 2013, 11:14:23 AM
Regardless of money, doubt Brian cares.
Melinda would if there was exclusive stuff on these...

And, of course, you are correct. That would be the answer to the rhetorical question.

But, why DON'T they care? You care. many people care. I care. Actually, I would make it a priority. If I was married to Brian Wilson, I would make it a MISSION to accumulate ALL things SMiLE. And, that's not a criticism of Melinda. It's something I wondered about for years.

A semi-related question, and not to be critical of Brian. Would McCartney care, or Paul Simon, or Dylan? Care about preserving their greatest work? Just thinking out loud...

I understand your viewpoint here. We speak as pedantic fans, the feelings of someone who actually was there (and his manager wife) are certainly different and I don't think it's a bad thing, necessarily. As fans/collectors, we have our place, but I don't think we should expect Melinda and Brian to be creating a SMiLE tome just because it's a legendary and hugely important part of the story. As far as SMiLE goes for Brian - he's had self-gratification on more than one level - 2004, 2011, now 2013 with the Grammy. I actually don't think he should care, it probably wouldn't be healthy for him to care. WE care, that's the position we have put ourselves in.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: jeffcdo on March 01, 2013, 11:21:15 AM
C'mon Smiley Smilers, let's buy them!  All we need is 10,000 people to put up one dollar each.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 01, 2013, 11:22:00 AM
http://recordmecca.com/rmsite/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Durrie-Parks-2.jpeg

Is this her signature? Looks like it's signed by a Jon something. Also weird is that you can put them in your cart forc $10000. One would think these are auction quality.



Yeah why aren't these on ebay??  :lol

A couple of years ago due to a windfall insurance claim I had that kind of money -- whether I would have lived long enough
to play them for my wife is another question.  :tiptoe


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 01, 2013, 11:40:46 AM
Something to keep in mind: The temporary nature of acetates in general, where they were made at this time specifically for the client to take home and listen to the day's work in the studio (not made for repeat plays), creates a situation where the average Joe with 10,000 who may want to buy these runs the risk of destroying them, or at least degrading the sound quality to the point of them being unlistenable over time. They are museum pieces, in a way, and I'm guessing someone already has transferred them using the proper equipment.

Various archives like the Library of Congress get acetates and store/catalog acetates which have literally fallen apart when they've attempted to transfer them, again depending on how they were made originally.

All I'm saying is you wouldn't want to put one of these on a Technics turntable and have a listening party for friends if you owned them. I still cringe at that scene in some Beatles or Buddy Holly documentary when McCartney puts the original "That'll Be The Day" Quarrymen acetate on some cheap portable record player... :)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: STE on March 01, 2013, 11:43:58 AM


Ok,
100 of us chip in with 100$ each, we buy the thing, share the digital copy, resell it, share the money.  Who is in?
I'm not even joking.

We can transfer the 100$ to AGD's bank account and he can then buy the acetates.
If we don't make it in time, we can anyway use the money to pay AGD for listening to SIP again.





Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 01, 2013, 11:54:49 AM
Something to keep in mind: The temporary nature of acetates in general, where they were made at this time specifically for the client to take home and listen to the day's work in the studio (not made for repeat plays), creates a situation where the average Joe with 10,000 who may want to buy these runs the risk of destroying them, or at least degrading the sound quality to the point of them being unlistenable over time. They are museum pieces.....

Totally agree.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on March 01, 2013, 12:00:22 PM
More assumptioning… the digital version that comes-with might well have been provided to Durrie by the SMiLE box set compilers as part of the agreement by which they got to audition the discs. In which case the transfer should be top-notch and is maybe a copy of her copy.  And the copyright will be up in 2016/17 in Europe at least which ,makes this a neat little goldmine to one of those small-bit reiissue labels that thrives on out-of-copyright stuff.  As I say all assumptions… awaiting AGD's tuppenny worth!!  ;D


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 01, 2013, 12:02:09 PM
Question...It's been speculated for years what exactly is on those discs, so after looking over the descriptions is there anything there which either does not appear on the Smile box set or has not appeared elsewhere up to this point?

There is stuff on these that I've never heard and is definitely not on the Smile Box. Maybe 3 or 4 fragments were completely new to me.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Catbirdman on March 01, 2013, 12:31:15 PM
Hmm, "Andy..." Wait a second, you aren't Andy Kaufman are you? I *knew* you were still alive!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 01, 2013, 12:50:48 PM
The could be one of the best BBs exquisities ( ⓒ Wee Helper) I have ever seen.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: send me a picture and i'll tell you on March 01, 2013, 01:20:34 PM
What are the chances that this is a hoax?  What is the reputation of this seller?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on March 01, 2013, 01:26:39 PM
What are the chances that this is a hoax?  What is the reputation of this seller?

Good question , this looks creditable but why would the vendor chose to sell through (or to) this seller? Could some of our big league collectors maybe have a look at the other BBs product being sold on the site (there's only one) and offer their opinions on that? It's either a boot or something completely unknown.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: FatherOfTheMan Sr101 on March 01, 2013, 01:38:53 PM
I would certainly be interested in investing towards these if we could verify what is on them could very well be new...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: AndrewHickey on March 01, 2013, 01:39:30 PM
More assumptioning… the digital version that comes-with might well have been provided to Durrie by the SMiLE box set compilers as part of the agreement by which they got to audition the discs. In which case the transfer should be top-notch and is maybe a copy of her copy.  And the copyright will be up in 2016/17 in Europe at least which ,makes this a neat little goldmine to one of those small-bit reiissue labels that thrives on out-of-copyright stuff.  As I say all assumptions… awaiting AGD's tuppenny worth!!  ;D


You're wrong about the copyright. Anything released from 01/01/63 on is subject to the new extended copyright provisions they brought in to protect EMI's cash cow by keeping the Beatles in copyright encourage creative artists. Surfin' Safari is likely to remain the only Beach Boys album ever to go out of copyright as long as there is someone in the world willing to pay for Beatles records.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 01, 2013, 01:49:12 PM
Two things. I think Guitarfool alluded to one.

1. Each time you play an acetate, it degrades it. I read somewhere awhile back how many times you can get away with it before the sound quality becomes almost unbearable to listen to, or the surface noise inevitably renders the audio unlistenable. They snap, crackle, and pop like Rice Crispies. Plus, the plastic deteriorates and becomes real brittle. I'd be scared to touch one of them. I wonder how these were stored all these years.

2. I'm sure the Smile box compilers listened to these. Don't you think if there was something valuable (or different) out there than what's on demos and bootlegs already, they would have use it? So it seems to me, those with a halfway decent collection of Smile boots has already heard the contents of these acetates.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 01, 2013, 02:12:32 PM
What are the chances that this is a hoax?  What is the reputation of this seller?

100% not a hoax. I've listened to them, even took better pictures of the acetates than the ones listed on this guy's site.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 01, 2013, 02:23:01 PM
Andy,
If you're not joking about hearing these, would you PLEASE tell us about ONE thing you heard that was new to you to hold us over until you finish the longer piece your intending to write?

THE SUSPENSE IS KILLING ME!  :P


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 01, 2013, 02:23:29 PM
Two things. I think Guitarfool alluded to one.

1. Each time you play an acetate, it degrades it. I read somewhere awhile back how many times you can get away with it before the sound quality becomes almost unbearable to listen to, or the surface noise inevitably renders the audio unlistenable. They snap, crackle, and pop like Rice Crispies. Plus, the plastic deteriorates and becomes real brittle. I'd be scared to touch one of them. I wonder how these were stored all these years.

2. I'm sure the Smile box compilers listened to these. Don't you think if there was something valuable (or different) out there than what's on demos and bootlegs already, they would have use it? So it seems to me, those with a halfway decent collection of Smile boots has already heard the contents of these acetates.

1. In a storage unit, like Public Storage. They're pretty crackly, one of them has a nasty warp but it's at the edge of the acetate and not over any of the "music".

2. They didn't. These popped up in September. I tried to reference it in the Alan Boyd lectures thread. Most of the contents on the acetates have been heard but there are three to four pieces that were completely new to my ears. And one of the acetate descriptions is mislabeled..I'll explain later.

*edit*-There is a different version of IIGS, different instrumentation, different tempo than the others that have been bootlegged. And a really cool chorus of Worms (that may be out there, but I hadn't heard it).


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: FatherOfTheMan Sr101 on March 01, 2013, 02:44:25 PM
Okay thank you so much for that! Two questions though...

What kind of chorus? A completely new thing? Or is it a different version of what we've heard?

And for Great Shape, is it 100% different or jut a different take?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 01, 2013, 02:54:59 PM
Two things. I think Guitarfool alluded to one.

1. Each time you play an acetate, it degrades it. I read somewhere awhile back how many times you can get away with it before the sound quality becomes almost unbearable to listen to, or the surface noise inevitably renders the audio unlistenable. They snap, crackle, and pop like Rice Crispies. Plus, the plastic deteriorates and becomes real brittle. I'd be scared to touch one of them. I wonder how these were stored all these years.

One important point about acetates:  they're not Plastic thru and thru, as are LP's/45's, but have plastic/vinyl/styrene( whatever it is they use) on a metal disc. This is most likely the reason for the degradation with many plays, if it wears away the coating. Of course, storage conditions will affect the life also. 
I have quite a few acetates(as do a few others I'm certain) some in better shape than others, of course. I've played some of them/tried to play others. Some came in horrible condition, some almost new. I like to play them once top record, and then put them away.( but of course, that doesn't always happen) 
Don't have any Smile ones, tho.  Now, if my lotto numbers come in.... 

MEant to add: 
http://recordmecca.com/rmsite/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Durrie-Parks-2.jpeg

 Also weird is that you can put them in your cart for $10000. One would think these are auction quality.

Yeah why aren't these on ebay??  :lol


Why would a business take their stuff to someone else that charges them  commission to sell it, when they can sell on their own site? 
EBay is at 9% ( plus Paypal cost if they use that, almost 3% more) Auction houses generally take a huge cut, with no guarantee of a wider audience... 


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on March 01, 2013, 03:32:19 PM
More assumptioning… the digital version that comes-with might well have been provided to Durrie by the SMiLE box set compilers as part of the agreement by which they got to audition the discs. In which case the transfer should be top-notch and is maybe a copy of her copy.  And the copyright will be up in 2016/17 in Europe at least which ,makes this a neat little goldmine to one of those small-bit reiissue labels that thrives on out-of-copyright stuff.  As I say all assumptions… awaiting AGD's tuppenny worth!!  ;D


You're wrong about the copyright. Anything released from 01/01/63 on is subject to the new extended copyright provisions they brought in to protect EMI's cash cow by keeping the Beatles in copyright encourage creative artists. Surfin' Safari is likely to remain the only Beach Boys album ever to go out of copyright as long as there is someone in the world willing to pay for Beatles records.

Many thanks for the clarification - I'm supremely relieved to hear that's the case. There's a proliferation of Surfin Safari reissues out there already and my wallet couldn't have stood an entire catalogue plunder! Must raise the prospects of the First Wave set appearing though…

The other thought that struck was that if there was anything else on the Durrie Parks acetates that was worthy of release, it might have been held back for MIC.

More assumptioning!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 01, 2013, 03:35:59 PM
More assumptioning… the digital version that comes-with might well have been provided to Durrie by the SMiLE box set compilers as part of the agreement by which they got to audition the discs. In which case the transfer should be top-notch and is maybe a copy of her copy.  And the copyright will be up in 2016/17 in Europe at least which ,makes this a neat little goldmine to one of those small-bit reiissue labels that thrives on out-of-copyright stuff.  As I say all assumptions… awaiting AGD's tuppenny worth!!  ;D


You're wrong about the copyright. Anything released from 01/01/63 on is subject to the new extended copyright provisions they brought in to protect EMI's cash cow by keeping the Beatles in copyright encourage creative artists. Surfin' Safari is likely to remain the only Beach Boys album ever to go out of copyright as long as there is someone in the world willing to pay for Beatles records.

Many thanks for the clarification - I'm supremely relieved to hear that's the case. There's a proliferation of Surfin Safari reissues out there already and my wallet couldn't have stood an entire catalogue plunder! Must raise the prospects of the First Wave set appearing though…

 Is there anyone brave enough to send $$ for First Wave, if Brad appears to sell  it again?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 01, 2013, 03:42:53 PM
I would certainly be interested in investing towards these if we could verify what is on them could very well be new...

They are also selling a notebook of Morrison's and Grace Slicks Monterrey Pop outfit ($22,000) so i think its legit.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 01, 2013, 03:53:11 PM

One important point about acetates:  they're not Plastic thru and thru, as are LP's/45's, but have plastic/vinyl/styrene( whatever it is they use) on a metal disc.

Acetate is what the coating is made from - basically the same stuff safety film is made of, the discs are aluminum.


Why would a business take their stuff to someone else that charges them  commission to sell it, when they can sell on their own site? 
EBay is at 9% ( plus Paypal cost if they use that, almost 3% more) Auction houses generally take a huge cut, with no guarantee of a wider audience... 

What I should have said is Durrie should have sold them on ebay - in 8 separate auctions - if one collector was determined to get them all she could have made a lot more cash maybe $2000 per disc or more. Apparently she got what she wanted when she sold them to this company.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 01, 2013, 04:03:38 PM
I must 'come out' here ... I am the one the started the 'rumor' back in the '90s.

It was not a rumor; I knew Durrie personally during this time, and she told me casually about the acetates on a few occasions. A year or two later, I innocently mentioned it on a forum. I lost touch with her for awhile, and I think some people probably contacted her about it ... so I felt kind of weird.

In any case, this may be a happy ending -- I hope she got some decent $$$ for these things, and hopefully someone will buy them & archive them for all to hear!

Personally, I think these are very important because they represent some of the only original BW mixes of the era. I lost my chance to hear 'em many years ago!

Okay what I would like know is are these acetates cut from live takes off the board or off the master tapes?

Obviously acetate discs are not an archival storage medium. Seems unwise to commit anything unique or vitality important to them.
I figured the discs were cut from the tapes so the artists can have a "carry-out" to listen at home / share with friends.

If the later then tapes should exist with the exact same material. But people don't always do the wise thing...so...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 01, 2013, 04:09:38 PM

One important point about acetates:  they're not Plastic thru and thru, as are LP's/45's, but have plastic/vinyl/styrene( whatever it is they use) on a metal disc.

Acetate is what the coating is made from - basically the same stuff safety film is made of, the discs are aluminum.


Why would a business take their stuff to someone else that charges them  commission to sell it, when they can sell on their own site?  
EBay is at 9% ( plus Paypal cost if they use that, almost 3% more) Auction houses generally take a huge cut, with no guarantee of a wider audience...  

What I should have said is Durrie should have sold them on ebay - in 8 separate auctions - if one collector was determined to get them all she could have made a lot more cash maybe $2000 per disc or more. Apparently she got what she wanted when she sold them to this company.

Yes, of course it's possible she would have made more $$, but ( moot point, I know) perhaps she doesn't like Ebay/doesn't have an account there/ just plain didn't want to deal with listing, taking pictures, waiting, then trying to package them for shipment.  


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chris Brown on March 01, 2013, 04:12:53 PM
Mind = Blown  :o

Andy's posts are tantalizing to say the least - if Alan and co. didn't have the chance to hear these in the course of working on the Smile box, I wonder if one or more of the new bits may pop up on MIC? 


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: KittyKat on March 01, 2013, 04:13:22 PM
I recall lurking on a couple of Beach Boys' boards a few years ago and there were people arguing over whether Durrie "owed" the fans her acetates. Some even said they were trying to call her or e-mail to pester her to release them. It's pretty clear why those fans weren't successful, because she owed them nothing. Good for her for trying to get some cash out of her treasures.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 01, 2013, 04:22:29 PM
Good for her for trying to get some cash out of her treasures.

I find it ironic. I mean, I wonder what Van Dyke is thinking. Still cashing in on SMiLE. Don't misunderstand, I don't blame her.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 01, 2013, 04:25:14 PM
I recall lurking on a couple of Beach Boys' boards a few years ago and there were people arguing over whether Durrie "owed" the fans her acetates. Some even said they were trying to call her or e-mail to pester her to release them. It's pretty clear why those fans weren't successful, because she owed them nothing. Good for her for trying to get some cash out of her treasures.
 

 I wonder if she might not have gotten more $$ by selling them prior to the Sessions release( again, moot point)   wonder why she decided to sell them now. Cash crunch?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 01, 2013, 04:26:26 PM
Just seems weird to me. Don't doubt Andy is on the up and up on this, but it just seems weird that the Smile compilers supposedly didn't hear ALL of the acetates and an unknown amount of discs didn't surface until September. Didn't Durrie have all of the discs stored in one place or were they scattered all over the place and the Smile box compilers only heard a few of them (ones Durrie selected) and not all of them? Why not all of them? After all these years, you would have thought Durrie knew what she had and had helped Capitol and the compilers by letting them audition everything and even make some money from it in the mean time.

And these acetates weren't in a storage facility since 1967. I remember reading that they were stored Durrie's garage or other room for many years. Van Dyke himself said that Durrie had them in her possession - she took them after the divorce from Van.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Zander on March 01, 2013, 04:51:38 PM

All I'm saying is you wouldn't want to put one of these on a Technics turntable and have a listening party for friends if you owned them. I still cringe at that scene in some Beatles or Buddy Holly documentary when McCartney puts the original "That'll Be The Day" Quarrymen acetate on some cheap portable record player... :)

I doubt it was the original, he had at least 5 copies of the acetate made for personal use when he bought it off Duff Lowe (before he put the original in a sealed vault)...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Don Malcolm on March 01, 2013, 05:13:58 PM
I've known the seller for more than 35 years and can vouch for him without hesitation. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that this acquisition and sale has been a long time in gestating, even though the first inkling of it (to our eyes, at least) occurred recently.

Given the seller's connection with the RRHOF, I'm kind of rooting for someone with deep pockets to be part of a deal that results in these acetates winding up there. The fact that they are up for public sale, however, doesn't make me feel all that confident that such a scenario will occur.

I do think it was an excellent (and ethically exemplary) decision to keep the collection intact. I wish that there would be some way to guarantee that it stays that way once they are purchased.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Blake Alan on March 01, 2013, 06:16:21 PM


Ok,
100 of us chip in with 100$ each, we buy the thing, share the digital copy, resell it, share the money.  Who is in?
I'm not even joking.

We can transfer the 100$ to AGD's bank account and he can then buy the acetates.
If we don't make it in time, we can anyway use the money to pay AGD for listening to SIP again.


I'd be up for this.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Dunderhead on March 01, 2013, 06:25:56 PM
We've been talking about these acetates for as long as I've been here and up until now, it's never been entirely clear if they even existed. This is pretty exciting.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Dunderhead on March 01, 2013, 06:28:18 PM
I am going to buy these and put them in my SMiLE shrine alongside the Inside Pop reels, a hubcap from Brian's Rolls Royce and an empty carton of chocolate ice cream Brian finished off circa September 1966.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 01, 2013, 06:44:33 PM


Ok,
100 of us chip in with 100$ each, we buy the thing, share the digital copy, resell it, share the money.  Who is in?
I'm not even joking.

We can transfer the 100$ to AGD's bank account and he can then buy the acetates.
If we don't make it in time, we can anyway use the money to pay AGD for listening to SIP again.


I'd be up for this.

Me too! (really)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: FatherOfTheMan Sr101 on March 01, 2013, 06:45:51 PM


Ok,
100 of us chip in with 100$ each, we buy the thing, share the digital copy, resell it, share the money.  Who is in?
I'm not even joking.

We can transfer the 100$ to AGD's bank account and he can then buy the acetates.
If we don't make it in time, we can anyway use the money to pay AGD for listening to SIP again.


I'd be up for this.

Me too! (really)

I'd have to know that the contents aren't just going to be lackluster, at least ONE little tidbit would need to be new.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chris Brown on March 01, 2013, 07:00:32 PM
Not to veer off topic (the acetates themselves), but did anyone else know that Van Dyke and Durrie apparently lived with Brian during the Smile era, as stated in the Letter of Authenticity?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 01, 2013, 07:47:01 PM
Not to veer off topic (the acetates themselves), but did anyone else know that Van Dyke and Durrie apparently lived with Brian during the Smile era, as stated in the Letter of Authenticity?

I'd venture that's fairly common knowledge around these parts


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on March 01, 2013, 10:25:41 PM
If folks on this board bought them, how would they be stored? Anyone got the facilities? Not me… best bet is that Capitol, or BW, or others from the industry buy and preserve them foreever… or some board member(s) buy(s) them and hands them over as an act of benevolence so they don't just end up in another garage (we don't have a garage, it'd have to be one of our mouse-infested sheds or the kids' toy box).

On the First Wave thing, bgas, once out of copyright anyone could release those tapes - doesn't have to be Brad. I'm betting someone, maybe Hoffman and/or the Morgan estate, has copies… wouldn't be surprised if someone on this board has heard them.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 01, 2013, 11:19:28 PM
Is it possible Ms Parks is selling the acetates now because respective parties have done what needs to be done with them and now Durrie has no more use for them.

If that makes sense


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 01, 2013, 11:30:43 PM
Quote
"A digital transfer of the music is included…"

Even more enticing!

As for the track listing, these have me going (if this is a prank, it's good!):

Disc 2)      2. Two versions of “Do You Like Worms (Bicycle Rider)” with alternate vocals to box set.
                3. First 45 seconds of “Heroes and Villains”. Vocal sounds  different than commercial release.

Disc 3)      1. Alternate version of “Cabin Essence Verse“ (different from box set.)
                3. Alternate version of final minute of Cabin Essence (different from box set.)

Disc 4)      1. Alternate version of “Do You Like Worms” that jumps back and forth from the “Roll Plymouth Rock” part and “Bicycle Rider” part.  (Different sequence/medly than on box set.)

Disc 5)      1. Alternate version of “Heroes And Villains Verse: Master Take” (different from box set)

Disc 7)      1.  Alternate version of  “Wind Chimes” (different from box set.)  (7")

Disc 8)      1.  Backing track “Time To Get Alone” (unreleased instrumental version (… this version has no vocals and an extra 20 seconds at end.)

I can't but help note the lavish use of "(different from box set.)" as opposed "previously unheard". I would also have to ponder the audio quality after all these decades of questionable storage not to mention (probably) being played to death at the time. Then again, "Teeter-Totter Love" didn't sound too bad...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on March 02, 2013, 12:55:44 AM
Then again, "Teeter-Totter Love" didn't sound too bad...

You should hear the acetate of "When I Get Mad I Just Kick My Dog" – plays fine despite the teeth marks; it fact, the sound effects of the dog whining and yelping has a deeep beauty…   ;D


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: LostArt on March 02, 2013, 05:39:16 AM
Is it possible Ms Parks is selling the acetates now because respective parties have done what needs to be done with them and now Durrie has no more use for them.

If that makes sense

It does make sense.  If she discovered these extra acetates in September, perhaps she did make a deal with Capitol so they could add some of the material to the MiC box.  Then, the MiC box gets held up so the compilers could add the material.  So, after already receiving a nice check from Capitol, Durrie sells the things to the dealer before the MiC box is released so she and the dealer can get maximum $$$.  However, if she has other acetates that the compilers of the Smile box did audition prior to it's release, why isn't she selling those?

And who is andy, and how is he hearing these things? 


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 02, 2013, 06:29:04 AM
In my opinion, I think Durrie Parks rarely, if ever, thought about those acetates.

If I read the details correctly, they were stored in Public Storage, which I believe would be an outdoor facility (though, obviously stored inside the facility). Many of those facilities are not climate controlled. If you really valued these acetates, wouldn't you store them privately, INSIDE (!), maybe in a fireproof safe, certainly not in public place that could be robbed, vandalized, burned down, insect infested, etc.

Also, I wonder how much, if any, emotional attachment Durrie had to those acetates. Forty five years is a long time. Feelings and emotional attachment to collectibles wears off over time. To her, they might've been just a couple of songs, fragments of songs even. Plus, did she ever know the magnitude of what she had in the first place? I mean, they were given to her by the co-composer of the material himself - why didn't HE want them?

There is the chance Durrie had forgotten she even had them until she was approached about them, whether it be from the random collector or the compilers of the SMiLE box set. I can picture Durrie making a phone call or two to somebody who knew something about collecting and SMiLE, and was more than happy to say, "Make me an offer..."


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 02, 2013, 07:22:07 AM
In my opinion, I think Durrie Parks rarely, if ever, thought about those acetates.

If I read the details correctly, they were stored in Public Storage, which I believe would be an outdoor facility (though, obviously stored inside the facility). Many of those facilities are not climate controlled. If you really valued these acetates, wouldn't you store them privately, INSIDE (!), maybe in a fireproof safe, certainly not in public place that could be robbed, vandalized, burned down, insect infested, etc.

Also, I wonder how much, if any, emotional attachment Durrie had to those acetates. Forty five years is a long time. Feelings and emotional attachment to collectibles wears off over time. To her, they might've been just a couple of songs, fragments of songs even. Plus, did she ever know the magnitude of what she had in the first place? I mean, they were given to her by the co-composer of the material himself - why didn't HE want them?

There is the chance Durrie had forgotten she even had them until she was approached about them, whether it be from the random collector or the compilers of the SMiLE box set. I can picture Durrie making a phone call or two to somebody who knew something about collecting and SMiLE, and was more than happy to say, "Make me an offer..."

In this scenario, you make her seem a complete idiot; " err, they're just some song fragments and even tho hundreds (thousands?)of people have messaged me about them, I'll simply take whatever offer I get, and not get a real opinion on their value before selling"


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 02, 2013, 07:48:08 AM
In my opinion, I think Durrie Parks rarely, if ever, thought about those acetates.

If I read the details correctly, they were stored in Public Storage, which I believe would be an outdoor facility (though, obviously stored inside the facility). Many of those facilities are not climate controlled. If you really valued these acetates, wouldn't you store them privately, INSIDE (!), maybe in a fireproof safe, certainly not in public place that could be robbed, vandalized, burned down, insect infested, etc.

Also, I wonder how much, if any, emotional attachment Durrie had to those acetates. Forty five years is a long time. Feelings and emotional attachment to collectibles wears off over time. To her, they might've been just a couple of songs, fragments of songs even. Plus, did she ever know the magnitude of what she had in the first place? I mean, they were given to her by the co-composer of the material himself - why didn't HE want them?

There is the chance Durrie had forgotten she even had them until she was approached about them, whether it be from the random collector or the compilers of the SMiLE box set. I can picture Durrie making a phone call or two to somebody who knew something about collecting and SMiLE, and was more than happy to say, "Make me an offer..."

In this scenario, you make her seem a complete idiot; " err, they're just some song fragments and even tho hundreds (thousands?)of people have messaged me about them, I'll simply take whatever offer I get, and not get a real opinion on their value before selling"

Either you didn't didn't read my post, or you did and you're the complete idiot.

First, it was stated in the description of the acetates that they contained "a part or multiple parts of songs". Sounds like fragments to me.

Second, I wrote, "there is the chance Durrie had forgotten she even had them until she was approached about them". I will repeat the phrase "until she was approached about them". How many years went by before she was contacted about them? The answer is probably several, maybe even decades, certainly enough time to forget what you have, stored away in boxes, in a public storage. Hopefully, she had a life post-Van Dyke and SMiLE.

Third, you wrote, "not get a real opinion on their value before selling". But, I wrote, "I can picture Durrie making a phone call or two TO SOMEBODY WHO KNEW ABOUT COLLECTING AND SMILE". Why don't you consider that getting a real opinion? If the people she called didn't have an answer for her, I'll bet they could easily get it!

Finally, you wrote, "I'll simply take whatever offer I get". I didn't say that. I wrote, "was more than happy to say, "Make me an offer".  You're implying that I said she just wanted to unload them, and would take whatever she could get. What I was really implying, and I thought even you could understand, was that after storing something away for decades, maybe not having an emotional attachment to it, and realizing that there was some demand for it, Durrie was happy, pleased, whatever, to say, "Sure, I have no need for them, they're just sitting in boxes, I see that there is some genuine interest in them, sure, make me an offer..."


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: monicker on March 02, 2013, 08:23:19 AM
^ She mentioned the acetates in the early 2000s, which made the rounds on the internet (i can't find a link right now) and Donny just said in this thread that he talked to her about them in the '90s when he knew her personally. She did not just recently remember that she had them when she was approached for TSS. 

Waiting for Andy to say whatever he's gonna say about these. Is this the Andy from the Smile Shop/the early days of this board?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 02, 2013, 09:18:54 AM
Waiting for Andy to say whatever he's gonna say about these.

Me too!

(in my best Ant Bee voice) Annndddyyyyyy!  :)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on March 02, 2013, 09:34:56 AM
I just hope the person who buys them will let them be heard.

Andy, get back here please, must have more details  :spin


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 02, 2013, 09:36:45 AM
If folks on this board bought them, how would they be stored? Anyone got the facilities? Not me… best bet is that Capitol, or BW, or others from the industry buy and preserve them foreever… or some board member(s) buy(s) them and hands them over as an act of benevolence so they don't just end up in another garage (we don't have a garage, it'd have to be one of our mouse-infested sheds or the kids' toy box).

On the First Wave thing, bgas, once out of copyright anyone could release those tapes - doesn't have to be Brad. I'm betting someone, maybe Hoffman and/or the Morgan estate, has copies… wouldn't be surprised if someone on this board has heard them.

I can afford $100.

I will keep them in my basement along with the full set of 16mm Star Blazers films (Seasons 1 & 2!)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on March 02, 2013, 09:40:12 AM
If I put up money, then we should take in it turns to store them. We can post them to each other.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: DonnyL on March 02, 2013, 09:44:02 AM
She told me casually about them in 1998-99 ... proactively, not prompted by me. She also told me about master tapes. I mentioned it on a board shortly after. Since then, it's become 'lore' or 'rumor', even though the source was quite clear. Lots of people tried to contact her about it, etc. after that, and I felt bad that I had mentioned it at all. The message board I wrote it on is long gone ... I think it was either the original version of the Smile Shop board, or the Cabinessence board.

It's much more complicated than that, but that's basically it. I had a little website, and was trying to do an official 'interview' with her around this time as well, then things got a little weird, possibly related to all of the weirdos coming out of the woodwork (I was 19-20 years old, what did I know?!?). I was more interested in the master tapes that she had. I do remember riding around in her little yellow VW bug though !

Would also like to note that Durrie is a great lady, very kind and personable, and I hope she got a good deal out of this sale !

Looks like my original 'interview' is still up ... it became something more like a couple of emails with some general thoughts, as she didn't want to do a formal interview:

http://troun.tripod.com/durrie.html


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 02, 2013, 09:50:00 AM
Given that they were part of the divorce settlement (source: VDP, personal conversation March 1985) I'm guessing she knew exactly what they were worth.

Also bear in mind that the compilers of the big box examined her acetates and found nothing they deemed significant or usable, which points inescapably to one of two conclusions:

1 - they've heard these and there's nothing special on them, or the audio quality was unacceptable. Or both.

2 - these have been 'uncovered' since then. I find that a little hard to credit.

Or, of course:

3 - I don't know WTF I'm talking about.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: rab2591 on March 02, 2013, 09:57:43 AM
Could Capitol, (hypothetically) not willing to buy the acetates, have just passed on them due to the price? And then the compilers said there was nothing of worth on them just to not make a fuss?

I mean, we were blown away by the new CIFOTM bit (even though it sounded somewhat crummy), and the 2 second melody line Brian sang for DYLW....I think an alternate version of any song (no matter how lousy the quality) would've been awesome to have on the boxset.

*But if there truly was nothing new on them, then I don't blame them for passing on it.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 02, 2013, 10:07:48 AM
Could Capitol, (hypothetically) not willing to buy the acetates, have just passed on them due to the price? And then the compilers said there was nothing of worth on them just to not make a fuss?

Were I Alan Boyd or Mark Linett, I'd find that comment hugely insulting.

Actually, I do anyway.  >:(


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 02, 2013, 10:17:46 AM
If I put up money, then we should take in it turns to store them. We can post them to each other.

Ah I was jest kidding around (although I do have the films) anyway the worst thing would be mailing them
back and forth across the country. Fragile things they are.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: rab2591 on March 02, 2013, 10:20:57 AM
Could Capitol, (hypothetically) not willing to buy the acetates, have just passed on them due to the price? And then the compilers said there was nothing of worth on them just to not make a fuss?

Were I Alan Boyd or Mark Linett, I'd find that comment hugely insulting.

Actually, I do anyway.  >:(

I didn't intend to insult anyone....apologies for a poorly thought out comment. I'm sure there was good reason for Mark or Alan to pass on them. I was more just speculating as to whether Capitol thought the price was too high for a few poor sounding acetates.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: OneEar/OneEye on March 02, 2013, 11:19:14 AM
Could it possibly be a situation where there is something unique on the acetates, but that Durrie, planning to auction them, declined to allow the Smile Sessions compilers use of them for that box, thinking they would fetch a higher price if they were still "unreleased", but that they will be on the MIC box (to lure Smile fans) because by then they will have already been sold? 


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: rn57 on March 02, 2013, 11:19:32 AM
Looking up and down this thread I don't think anybody's noted the interesting thing about the letter signed by Durrie, confirming authenticity, on the page. It refers only to one disc, the first one listed. If these are being sold as a lot, you'd figure that the letter would mention all of them - put "discs" in plural and so forth.

So I wonder if, back in January (when the letter is dated), the idea was to sell these piecemeal.

In any event, yep, it is puzzling why they aren't being auctioned. David Crosby's Byrds-era suede cape, which went up for auction last week, had an opening bid of $1000, and by a few hours before closing, it had gotten up to close to $15,000.

The uniqueness of what's on the discs would also increase the value - though naturally, they're not quite as special as they would have seemed to be when Durrie was given custody of them back in the '70s, back in the days when some people really believed Brian had burned the Smile tapes, or at least most of them.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 02, 2013, 11:46:47 AM
Well I just gotta say I find it incredible disappointing these tracks didn't make it on to the smile box


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: AndrewHickey on March 02, 2013, 12:04:42 PM
Well I just gotta say I find it incredible disappointing these tracks didn't make it on to the smile box

Really? Incredibly disappointing?

Bearing in mind that you've not heard them and the compilers of the box had?

What would you have dropped from the box to include these -- again, bearing in mind that you've not heard them, have no idea of the sound quality, and don't know if they're things that have already been booted?

The box couldn't possibly include every single second of music recorded during those sessions -- we *know* there's other stuff out there. But it's five CDs of the best stuff they could put together. That's good enough for me...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 02, 2013, 12:05:39 PM
Well I just gotta say I find it incredible disappointing these tracks didn't make it on to the smile box

Because you know what they are ? Or... just because ?

I find it incredibly disappointing that Brian's mono mix & edit of the track for "Child..." never made it to the box, the difference being my point is valid as I've heard it.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Roger Ryan on March 02, 2013, 01:26:43 PM
...Okay what I would like know is are these acetates cut from live takes off the board or off the master tapes?

Obviously acetate discs are not an archival storage medium. Seems unwise to commit anything unique or vitality important to them.
I figured the discs were cut from the tapes so the artists can have a "carry-out" to listen at home / share with friends.

If the later then tapes should exist with the exact same material. But people don't always do the wise thing...so...

As has been shown by the acetates used on the SMiLE box, early mixes that ended up on acetates for review were later changed (vocals wiped, etc.) so that the acetate is the only recording left of how a track sounded at an earlier time. Given that SMiLE session tapes are known to have been lost or destroyed or had vocal tracks erased and recorded over (something Brian did a lot), there's the possibility that something quite unique is on these new acetates for sale. I believe that "Barnyard", the Dennis vocal on "You Were My Sunshine" and the second chorus to "Child Is Father Of The Man", among other tidbits heard on the SMiLE box,  is material that only existed on acetates.

I doubt the new discs contain material as important as the tracks I mentioned above, but there might be something worthwhile on them.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 02, 2013, 01:31:21 PM
These tapes are very important in the mystique of the SMiLE saga, it would be interesting for the MIC box to have these due to them not on the smile box set.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: sweetdudejim on March 02, 2013, 02:17:11 PM
I find it incredibly disappointing that Brian's mono mix & edit of the track for "Child..." never made it to the box, the difference being my point is valid as I've heard it.

I gotta agree on being disappointed that Brian's mix/edit of "Child..." from 1966 didn't make it onto the box. Same thing for "Barnyard" with the backing vocals and no lead. How could Mark and Alan think that this stuff shouldn't be on the SMiLE set?

On the other hand, maybe Capitol told them to hold some stuff back for the Made In California.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: FatherOfTheMan Sr101 on March 02, 2013, 02:18:13 PM
The extra 2 vocals of CIFOTM blew my mind, anything like that might just be worth going for here...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 02, 2013, 02:22:52 PM
Well I just gotta say I find it incredible disappointing these tracks didn't make it on to the smile box

Because you know what they are ? Or... just because ?

I find it incredibly disappointing that Brian's mono mix & edit of the track for "Child..." never made it to the box, the difference being my point is valid as I've heard it.

Going by the tracklist for these acetates, the contents seem pretty much essential listening

Then again we all have our favorite sessions from Smile. DYLW being one my my favorites I'm very curious to hear "Two versions of “Do You Like Worms (Bicycle Rider)” with alternate vocals to box set".

So to sum up am I incredibly disappointed this didn't make the box set, yes.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 02, 2013, 02:30:20 PM
On the other hand, maybe Capitol told them to hold some stuff back for the Made In California.

I'd have to lean toward the negatory on that one.

1. I'm not even sure MIC was even considerd at that point in 2011 (though I could be wrong). Yeah, it would be a selling point to the hard cores, but I think there's already going to be enough on there to satisfy even the hard cores (again I could be wrong).
2. I would think they'd want to get every known and unknown section/fragment on the Smile box to make it the most comprehensive collection possible.
3. Somebody needs to get to Alan and/or Mark to find out what Durrie acetates were auditioned for the Smile release (if they recall).


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: harveyw on March 02, 2013, 02:31:19 PM
I was a bit tired of all this speculation so I thought I'd drop Jeff at Recordmecca an email. I won't print his response in full, but he mentions that Mark Linett has been in touch with him -on behalf of The Beach Boys- since the sale began. Apparently Linett (or another member of the team) contacted Durrie about the acetates when compiling the set (this much we know) but at the time she "didn't have any idea where they were". Is this true? This implies that they were never even auditioned during the box set's compilation. (Actually i've just taken a look at that "alan boyd lecture" thread which seems to contradict this statement. Curiouser & curiouser.)

The acetates' overall condition is listed as "G" - good. In record parlance "good" doesn't really mean "good", it means "just about playable", two steps away from thrashed. Chances are they're beyond salvation in fidelity terms, so would possibly be outside the scope of a reissue, but omygod who wouldn't want to own them...or even just hear them...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: FatherOfTheMan Sr101 on March 02, 2013, 02:35:13 PM
We need Alan, can someone more in the in just shoot him a quick email to see what's up? I think the stuff on these would be wasted if the wrong person gets them...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 02, 2013, 02:44:03 PM
Given that they were part of the divorce settlement (source: VDP, personal conversation March 1985) I'm guessing she knew exactly what they were worth.

Also bear in mind that the compilers of the big box examined her acetates and found nothing they deemed significant or usable, which points inescapably to one of two conclusions:

1 - they've heard these and there's nothing special on them, or the audio quality was unacceptable. Or both.

2 - these have been 'uncovered' since then. I find that a little hard to credit.

Or, of course:

3 - I don't know WTF I'm talking about.

Having read Harvey's post( quoted below), I think I'll lean towards door #2, tho you're obviously wanting everyone to pick door #3.
  Of course the description of the acetates being only in "G"  condition, does lend itself to the last part of door #1... 
I was a bit tired of all this speculation so I thought I'd drop Jeff at Recordmecca an email. I won't print his response in full, but he mentions that Mark Linett has been in touch with him -on behalf of The Beach Boys- since the sale began. Apparently Linett (or another member of the team) contacted Durrie about the acetates when compiling the set (this much we know) but at the time she "didn't have any idea where they were". Is this true? This implies that they were never even auditioned during the box set's compilation. (Actually i've just taken a look at that "alan boyd lecture" thread which seems to contradict this statement. Curiouser & curiouser.)

The acetates' overall condition is listed as "G" - good. In record parlance "good" doesn't really mean "good", it means "just about playable", two steps away from thrashed. Chances are they're beyond salvation in fidelity terms, so would possibly be outside the scope of a reissue, but omygod who wouldn't want to own them...or even just hear them...


Looking up and down this thread I don't think anybody's noted the interesting thing about the letter signed by Durrie, confirming authenticity, on the page. It refers only to one disc, the first one listed. If these are being sold as a lot, you'd figure that the letter would mention all of them - put "discs" in plural and so forth.


Easy to miss in a quick reading of the description at RecordMecca, as you evidently did: 
>>A digital transfer of the music is included, as is a letter of authenticity for each disc from Durrie Parks. << 
So obviously the one letter shown was used as an example

What interested me MORE, was DONNYL's post that Durrie has/had Master Tapes for Smile. And if so, what might be on those, and why didn't Alan/Mark get those  for the Smile Sessions? 


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 02, 2013, 02:53:36 PM
So Durrie found them after the box set was released.

What a shame. I would imagine Mark and Alan are a little disappointed


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: harveyw on March 02, 2013, 02:59:43 PM
So Durrie found them after the box set was released.

What a shame. I would imagine Mark and Alan are a little disappointed

Well, that's what I was told by the vendor. This thread seems to indicate otherwise:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14354.25.html

At least they reviewed the Durrie Parks stuff and other rumored acetates and tapes and pretty much covered as much ground as they could. Sounds like Boyd and Linett really worked their asses off.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Ron on March 02, 2013, 03:37:24 PM
About Brian buying them:


It's easy for us to fall into the trap of thinking like this, I do too... but to the people involved... they're just not that valuable.  Brian's never been into collecting historical things and he seems to even actually avoid almost every aspect of his early life (and maybe for good reasons).  Brian would be more likely to pay 10 grand for a new sofa for his living room than to pay 10 grand for an old record that he's heard 10,000 times, could have repressed at whim if he really wanted, and probably feels he could write better material if he sat down with an ink pen and a piece of paper. 


To us they're mindblowing, but we would probably be similarly mindblown if Brian called us on the phone.  So to Brian the value is somewhere around the value of a phonecall. 



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 02, 2013, 04:29:20 PM
So Durrie found them after the box set was released.

What a shame. I would imagine Mark and Alan are a little disappointed

Well, that's what I was told by the vendor. This thread seems to indicate otherwise:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14354.25.html

At least they reviewed the Durrie Parks stuff and other rumored acetates and tapes and pretty much covered as much ground as they could. Sounds like Boyd and Linett really worked their asses off.

Not to doubt Mikie out of hand, but where is his post confirmed?  In the same thread I found this post from Andy, and no meaningful replies, so.... 


....
Three, it hasn't been said what was discovered or anything about its quality. It could be a small fragment, a different edit, etc. It could be in terrible quality and unreleasable. The likelihood of something being discovered from a missing tape seems less likely than the discovery of an old acetate or something like that.

Speaking of sources, was it confirmed that Alan/Mark reviewed the DP acetates and other rumored sources mentioned in Mikie's post? I'd guess there's stuff that wasn't since new stuff is being found.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Ron on March 02, 2013, 04:37:06 PM
It could simply be too that it's just a copy of something sitting in the vault that they already had access to, and decided not to put (some of it) on the boxset.  So maybe unheard to us but heard to them. 


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 02, 2013, 04:41:28 PM
I was a bit tired of all this speculation so I thought I'd drop Jeff at Recordmecca an email. I won't print his response in full, but he mentions that Mark Linett has been in touch with him -on behalf of The Beach Boys- since the sale began. Apparently Linett (or another member of the team) contacted Durrie about the acetates when compiling the set (this much we know) but at the time she "didn't have any idea where they were". Is this true? This implies that they were never even auditioned during the box set's compilation. (Actually i've just taken a look at that "alan boyd lecture" thread which seems to contradict this statement. Curiouser & curiouser.)

The acetates' overall condition is listed as "G" - good. In record parlance "good" doesn't really mean "good", it means "just about playable", two steps away from thrashed. Chances are they're beyond salvation in fidelity terms, so would possibly be outside the scope of a reissue, but omygod who wouldn't want to own them...or even just hear them...

I was informed - by a highly reliable source - that the Parks acetates were auditioned by the box compilers/producers and that nothing of any use or importance was discovered. Given the G rating, I'd guess that means they were next to unlistenable.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 02, 2013, 05:01:26 PM
I was a bit tired of all this speculation so I thought I'd drop Jeff at Recordmecca an email. I won't print his response in full, but he mentions that Mark Linett has been in touch with him -on behalf of The Beach Boys- since the sale began. Apparently Linett (or another member of the team) contacted Durrie about the acetates when compiling the set (this much we know) but at the time she "didn't have any idea where they were". Is this true? This implies that they were never even auditioned during the box set's compilation. (Actually i've just taken a look at that "alan boyd lecture" thread which seems to contradict this statement. Curiouser & curiouser.)

The acetates' overall condition is listed as "G" - good. In record parlance "good" doesn't really mean "good", it means "just about playable", two steps away from thrashed. Chances are they're beyond salvation in fidelity terms, so would possibly be outside the scope of a reissue, but omygod who wouldn't want to own them...or even just hear them...

I was informed - by a highly reliable source - that the Parks acetates were auditioned by the box compilers/producers and that nothing of any use or importance was discovered. Given the G rating, I'd guess that means they were next to unlistenable.

  I believe you've mentioned this previously; Still, it sure seems to me that RecordMecca is claiming these acetates were never auditioned.  Seems to me the only way we'll get a definitive answer is by a response from Mark or Alan here, in this thread; NOT by telling you or your reliable source, and having it relayed


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: rn57 on March 02, 2013, 07:05:26 PM
Looking up and down this thread I don't think anybody's noted the interesting thing about the letter signed by Durrie, confirming authenticity, on the page. It refers only to one disc, the first one listed. If these are being sold as a lot, you'd figure that the letter would mention all of them - put "discs" in plural and so forth.


Easy to miss in a quick reading of the description at RecordMecca, as you evidently did: 
>>A digital transfer of the music is included, as is a letter of authenticity for each disc from Durrie Parks. << 
So obviously the one letter shown was used as an example

What interested me MORE, was DONNYL's post that Durrie has/had Master Tapes for Smile. And if so, what might be on those, and why didn't Alan/Mark get those  for the Smile Sessions? 
[/quote]

I did overlook that part of the description - but the fact that a letter of authenticity was prepared for each of the eight discs suggests that the option of selling them piecemeal was on the mind of Durrie, or somebody, back in January. And for whoever bought them as a lot, the letters would be useful to have if the purchaser decided to turn around and peddle each one by itself on eBay or someplace. I figure your average exec in Tokyo or Dubai or Paris, who is a hardcore BBs fan and drives a Lamborghini or somethin' like that, would be quite willing to pay $7000 or more for a single acetate.

And the value of the records, worn though they are, can only go up. Earlier this year Smile was a legendary album that had won a Grammy in its latterday form; now it's a legendary album that has won a Grammy in its original form, if one overlooks the post-1967 overdubs.  That kind of recognition increases the value of the source materials, whether used or unused for release.

The case of Brian Epstein's Beatles acetates, that wound up with his mum after his death, come to mind. I was reading, in a thread about Durrie's acetates at the Steve Hoffman forum, a post from a fellow who mentioned that he once examined Brian's acetate of Sgt Pepper, which had a different track order than what was finally released. The asking price for it at that time - I would guess he's talking about the early 1990s - was $2500.

Yes, twenty-five hundred dollarinis. I'd figure it that went on the market today it would go for at least 50 grand, not only because of the original owner but because of the alternate tracklist.  Some time back an acetate of Blonde On Blonde went for $30,000 and there was the famous case of the Velvet Underground and Nico acetate that went into six figures on eBay.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 02, 2013, 08:39:56 PM
Looking up and down this thread I don't think anybody's noted the interesting thing about the letter signed by Durrie, confirming authenticity, on the page. It refers only to one disc, the first one listed. If these are being sold as a lot, you'd figure that the letter would mention all of them - put "discs" in plural and so forth.


Easy to miss in a quick reading of the description at RecordMecca, as you evidently did: 
>>A digital transfer of the music is included, as is a letter of authenticity for each disc from Durrie Parks. << 
So obviously the one letter shown was used as an example

What interested me MORE, was DONNYL's post that Durrie has/had Master Tapes for Smile. And if so, what might be on those, and why didn't Alan/Mark get those  for the Smile Sessions? 

I did overlook that part of the description - but the fact that a letter of authenticity was prepared for each of the eight discs suggests that the option of selling them piecemeal was on the mind of Durrie, or somebody, back in January. And for whoever bought them as a lot, the letters would be useful to have if the purchaser decided to turn around and peddle each one by itself on eBay or someplace. I figure your average exec in Tokyo or Dubai or Paris, who is a hardcore BBs fan and drives a Lamborghini or somethin' like that, would be quite willing to pay $7000 or more for a single acetate.

And the value of the records, worn though they are, can only go up. Earlier this year Smile was a legendary album that had won a Grammy in its latterday form; now it's a legendary album that has won a Grammy in its original form, if one overlooks the post-1967 overdubs.  That kind of recognition increases the value of the source materials, whether used or unused for release.

The case of Brian Epstein's Beatles acetates, that wound up with his mum after his death, come to mind. I was reading, in a thread about Durrie's acetates at the Steve Hoffman forum, a post from a fellow who mentioned that he once examined Brian's acetate of Sgt Pepper, which had a different track order than what was finally released. The asking price for it at that time - I would guess he's talking about the early 1990s - was $2500.

Yes, twenty-five hundred dollarinis. I'd figure it that went on the market today it would go for at least 50 grand, not only because of the original owner but because of the alternate tracklist.  Some time back an acetate of Blonde On Blonde went for $30,000 and there was the famous case of the Velvet Underground and Nico acetate that went into six figures on eBay.
[/quote]

I see your assumption on the letters, but I really couldn't tell that's where you were going with your previous statements; Based on the dating of January 2103, my guess is RecordMecca asked for individual letters, possibly on the chance they'd try to sell them separately. Why they're not doing so, is anyone's guess. 

And as to values, if only this was a good assumption!  I'd say the value will probably rise, but sad fact is, Beach Boys items have always distantly trailed The Beatles, Dylan, others in ascending value.
Personally, I'd love to believe the things I have will take giant positive steps, but odds are( based on past performance) they'll be bringing up the rear. Forever.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 02, 2013, 10:23:18 PM
And the value of the records, worn though they are, can only go up. Earlier this year Smile was a legendary album that had won a Grammy in its latterday form; now it's a legendary album that has won a Grammy in its original form, if one overlooks the post-1967 overdubs.  That kind of recognition increases the value of the source materials, whether used or unused for release.

No sir, it did not. One track from BWPS won a Grammy, but the album as a whole did not. In fact it wasn't even nominated as an album.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: ♩♬☮ Billy C ♯♫♩☮ on March 02, 2013, 10:40:59 PM
I thought it was nominated for best pop album, only to lose out to Ray Charles...?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: monicker on March 02, 2013, 11:31:09 PM
I am going to bold things in yellow and spend my life pedantically correcting people with the most insufferable air of self-importance. Sometimes i'll even be wrong about said corrections. Stay tuned. It'll be fun. I am a fun person. People like me. I have friends.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 02, 2013, 11:52:26 PM
I was informed - by a highly reliable source - that the Parks acetates were auditioned by the box compilers/producers and that nothing of any use or importance was discovered. Given the G rating, I'd guess that means they were next to unlistenable.

Well, your source is wrong.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 03, 2013, 12:07:38 AM
So you're saying that Alan Boyd was being deliberately misleading in his lecture ? (This is not my source, btw).


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 03, 2013, 12:11:30 AM
So you're saying  that Alan Boyd was being deliberately misleading in his lecture ?

No, I think you misread/misheard what Alan said.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 03, 2013, 12:13:38 AM
I thought it was nominated for best pop album, only to lose out to Ray Charles...?

Yes sir, it was. Mea culpa (that's Latin for "I f***ed up").


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 03, 2013, 12:13:52 AM
I doubt Mark Linett would be interested in these acetates if he and Alan had already decided they weren't worth inclusion in the box set


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 03, 2013, 12:24:00 AM
Andy, as an aside from the ongoing debate here, as one who's heard them, what would you say the sound quality of these 'new' acetates is like ? Listenable or borderline ? Historically, an acetate is good for maybe 20-30 spins before bad things start to happen and the recorded history would seem to indicate that Brian played the crap out of them... of course, VDP may not have but as has been pointed out, in the accepted grading terms, G equates to well-used bordering on banged up.

From the Record Collectors Guild site:

    Mint (M)  Absolutely perfect in every way. Certainly never been played, possibly even still sealed.(More on still sealed under "Other Considerations"). Should be used sparingly as a grade, If at all.

    Near Mint (NM or M-)   A nearly perfect record. Many dealers won't give a grade higher than this implying (perhaps correctly)that no record is ever truly perfect.

    The record should show no obvious signs of wear. A 45 RPM or EP sleeve should have no more than the most minor defects, such as almost invisible ring wear or other signs of slight handling.

    An LP cover should have no creases, folds, seam splits or other noticeable similar defects. No cut-out holes, either. And of course, the same should be true of any other inserts, such as posters, lyric sleeves and the like.

    Basically, an LP in near mint condition looks as if you just got it home from a new record store and removed the shrink wrap.

    Near Mint is the highest price listed in all Goldmine price guides. Anything that exceeds this grade, in the opinion of both buyer and seller, is worth significantly more than the highest Goldmine book value.


    Very Good Plus (VG+)  Generally worth 50 percent of the Near Mint value.

    A Very Good Plus record will show some signs that it was played and otherwise handled by a previous owner who took good care of it.

    Record surfaces may show some signs of wear and may have slight scuffs or very light scratches that don't affect one's listening experiences. Slight warps that do not affect the sound are "OK".

    The label may have some ring wear or discoloration, but it should be barely noticeable. The center hole will not have been misshapen by repeated play.

    Picture sleeves and LP inner sleeves will have some slight wear, lightly turned up corners, or a slight seam split. An LP cover may have slight signs of wear also and may be marred by a cut-out hole, indentation or corner indicating it was taken out of print and sold at a discount.

    In general, if not for a couple things wrong with it, this would be Near Mint. All but the most mint-crazy collectors will find a Very Good Plus record highly acceptable.


    Very Good (VG)   Generally worth 25 percent of Near Mint value. Many of the defects found in a VG+ record will be more pronounced in a VG disc. Surface noise will be evident upon playing, especially in soft passages and during a song's intro and fade, but will not overpower the music otherwise. Groove wear will start to be noticeable, as with light scratches (deep enough to feel with a fingernail) that will affect the sound.

    Labels may be marred by writing, or have tape or stickers (or their residue) attached. The same will be true of picture sleeves or LP covers. However, it will not have all of these problems at the same time, only two or three of them.

    Goldmine price guides with more than one price will list Very Good as the lowest price. This, not the Near Mint price, should be your guide when determining how much a record is worth, as that is the price a dealer will normally pay you for a Near Mint record.


   Good (G), Good Plus (G+)  Generally worth 10-15 percent of the Near Mint value. Good does not mean Bad! A record in Good or Good Plus condition can be put onto a turntable and will play through without skipping. But it will have significant surface noise and scratches and visible groove wear (on a styrene record, the groove will be starting to turn white).

    A cover or sleeve will have seam splits, especially at the bottom or on the spine. Tape, writing, ring wear or other defects will start to overwhelm the object.

    It is a common item, you'll probably find another copy in better shape eventually. Pass it up. But, if it's something you have been seeking for years, and the price is right, get it...but keep looking to upgrade.


    Poor (P), Fair (F)   Generally worth 0-5 percent of the Near Mint price. The record is cracked, badly warped, and won't play through without skipping or repeating. The picture sleeve is water damaged, split on all three seams and heavily marred by wear and writing. The LP cover barely keeps the LP inside it. Inner sleeves are fully seam split, crinkled, and written upon.

    Except for impossibly rare records otherwise unattainable, records in this condition should be bought or sold for no more than a few cents each.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: ♩♬☮ Billy C ♯♫♩☮ on March 03, 2013, 12:51:54 AM
Good point about the shape of the acetates...we know how bad of a shape some of the non-Smile acetates from much later on sound,and I doubt they were played nearly as much as this. I may have missed this previously, but how were they stored?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 03, 2013, 12:56:03 AM
^ She mentioned the acetates in the early 2000s, which made the rounds on the internet (i can't find a link right now) and Donny just said in this thread that he talked to her about them in the '90s when he knew her personally. She did not just recently remember that she had them when she was approached for TSS.  

Waiting for Andy to say whatever he's gonna say about these. Is this the Andy from the Smile Shop/the early days of this board?

Yep! Good to see you still around, EM. It's been a while..I feel...older. Here's your link from Durrie: http://troun.tripod.com/durrie.html *EDIT* Donny L beat me to it! That's your interview?! So cool! I remember reading that in 2000, I think, and later referencing that interview for years, repeatedly begging my sources to pass along the message to Durrie that people would pay to dig through her storage and get these.

I wish I could've written more yesterday but the timing isn't great.

Long story short: I had a chance to listen to the acetates back in September. I happily volunteered to listen to them as I'd be able to say whether or not there was revelatory material on them. As you can imagine, it was completely surreal. Even just looking at the acetates was crazy. Here was a group of acetates that hadn't been touched in years, with hand-written labels, made from torn up pieces of paper, scotch-taped to each acetate to identify its contents. I'm sure someone can confirm whose handwriting is on these labels.

We went through the first two or three acetates and nothing was groundbreaking. In general, over half of them sounded like unique mixes of already bootlegged material, but it could've been the result of listening off of an acetate.

Anyway, we get to one of the acetates labeled "H&V". At some point, a completely new version of I'm In Great Shape starts playing. It was radically different from the versions in circulation (of which there is one with harp and saxophone, one with celeste, and one with heavy piano if I remember correctly)! This version of IIGS has more heavy instrumentation, but has the IIGS bassline. There was definitely percussion, maybe snares and other various pieces. It's pretty similar to the false barnyard instrumentation, and my guess is that it's on disc 1 of the link at the beginning of this thread (and is mislabeled, but I guess I can see how the two got confused).

At this point I thought "wow, amazing!", but then something really interesting happened! In two clearly spliced edits (speaking of which, I can't remember if IIGS had the tape distortion effect the earlier takes had, but if it did it was much, much more subtle), IGGS went directly into the harpsichord playing that's underneath "my children were raised, you know they...", from the official H&V single, but with the arrangement from H&V part 1 from the SS/WH twofer that goes into "healthy wealthy and OFTEN wise" (all with no vocals), then directly into the full instrumental arrangement behind "three score and five", and that then played out until the finish of the acetate. I cannot remember if the three score and five vocals were on top of the section or not...it all happened so fast and I was just caught off guard. Either way, it's the first time I'd heard that arrangement of those pieces, and it came straight from the men. So clearly this was the highlight to me.

The second biggest highlight for me came from Do You Like Worms. Maybe this piece is out there so forgive me for not having heard it. One of the mixes of Bicycle Rider on an acetate was the kick drum, and the oooga cha vocals, with very light harpsichord in the mix. It was extremely rhythmic and very punchy. It was nothing mindblowing, like hearing Ribbon of Concrete being sung would have been, but it just sounded amazing.

There is also a completely new/original keenywokapula vocal take on one of the DYLWs with a different mix. Not mindblowingly new, but mindblowingly great to listen to.

Like I said earlier, I think there were several unique mixes of previously heard stuff, but outside of the new IIGS and the edits, I didn't notice anything else that was revelatory.

As to the quality...well, they're old acetates that have been sitting in a storage facility in Arizona for years, along with boxes of clothes, photos, records, etc. They were very crackly and poppy, probably like some of the lower quality CIFOTM acetate recordings that are floating around. I'm no record expert, but maybe someone who is can say whether or not the quality could be improved by a very good cleaning. The acetates were dusty.

I'd tried to reference it in the Alan Boyd lecture thread, but I don't think these new pieces would make an official release due to their quality, and the discrepancy between the amount of work it'd take to get these cleared for a release versus the lack of interest from general Beach Boy fans for these tracks (I say general, but that definitely doesn't apply to people on this site, like me, who'd pay hundreds/thousands to hear any new SMiLE-related fragments).

I really hope these acetates wind up in the hands of the right people, and get catalogue/archived/thrown into the history bin. I think they're extremely valuable pieces and I'm glad they finally came out, 13 or so years later (and really 28 years or longer since AGD asked about them in '85). Even moreso, I hope everyone gets a chance to hear them soon!

Finally, here are a couple of pics I took with my phone..if only I'd gotten audio recordings as well! Notice you'll see the acetate with the warp on it.

*EDIT* You can see much bigger versions of the pictures below directly on flickr..for some reason I can't make them bigger on here.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8517/8518937139_d28d25d8ff_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38049467@N06/8518937139/)
2012-09-12_13-10-10_461 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38049467@N06/8518937139/)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8244/8520051650_ddedc528e8_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38049467@N06/8520051650/)
2012-09-12_13-11-10_461 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38049467@N06/8520051650/)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8231/8520051786_f9ebc70520_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38049467@N06/8520051786/)
2012-09-12_13-10-42_183 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38049467@N06/8520051786/)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8378/8518937685_2ebfe49518_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38049467@N06/8518937685/)
2012-09-12_13-10-37_66 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38049467@N06/8518937685/)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Al Jardine: Pick Up Artist on March 03, 2013, 01:06:19 AM
At this point I thought "wow, amazing!", but then something really interesting happened! In two clearly spliced edits (speaking of which, I can't remember if IIGS had the tape distortion effect the earlier takes had, but if it did it was much, much more subtle), IGGS went directly into the harpsichord playing that's underneath "my children were raised, you know they...", from the official H&V single, but with the arrangement from H&V part 1 from the SS/WH twofer that goes into "healthy wealthy and OFTEN wise" (all with no vocals), then directly into the full instrumental arrangement behind "three score and five", and that then played out until the finish of the acetate.


oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 03, 2013, 01:12:29 AM
Andy, as an aside from the ongoing debate here, as one who's heard them, what would you say the sound quality of these 'new' acetates is like ? Listenable or borderline ? Historically, an acetate is good for maybe 20-30 spins before bad things start to happen and the recorded history would seem to indicate that Brian played the crap out of them... of course, VDP may not have but as has been pointed out, in the accepted grading terms, G equates to well-used bordering on banged up.

I thought they were listenable, but fingers crossed, someone with more expertise (unless the seller frequents this board) can listen to these acetates in the very near future (next week or so) and say what the quality is. My best guess in quality comparison is some of the CIFOTM acetates. Listenable, but not necessarily release-level quality (whatever that term means, because I've heard worse quality stuff on official releases).

FWIW, aeijtzsche and I were roommates while he was working with Alan B. Alan's the first person I called after hearing these acetates, and without revealing who the acetates came from, went into detail about what was on them. This was right before his lecture, and I can't speak for Alan, but my guess is the "more pieces of SMiLE found" quote from that Alan lecture thread is probably referencing these acetates (I heard the acetates just a couple of weeks before that lecture: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14354.0.html).


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 03, 2013, 01:37:05 AM
And who is andy, and how is he hearing these things? 

Just an incredibly lucky BB fan with an "it's a small world" type connection to the acetates and great timing. There are many people who've devoted more time (even lives) to the BB that deserved to hear these before I did.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: mammy blue on March 03, 2013, 02:14:40 AM
Man oh man, I hope these make it out there somehow. Especially the IIGS mix you've described. I'd love to hear it, even if lower quality.

Was one of the DYLW mixes that you heard anything like this?

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ncpuef


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: mammy blue on March 03, 2013, 02:25:56 AM
My best guess in quality comparison is some of the CIFOTM acetates. Listenable, but not necessarily release-level quality (whatever that term means, because I've heard worse quality stuff on official releases).

Hi Andy, these CITFOTM acetates that you keep referring to... I'm not sure if I'm familiar with them. Do they include any vocals that didn't make it on the box set?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 03, 2013, 07:50:31 AM
Long story short: I had a chance to listen to the acetates back in September. I happily volunteered to listen to them as I'd be able to say whether or not there was revelatory material on them.

Well, dang, theres one more play of wear on them  ;)

I do hope yall were using a decent turntable with 1.5 (or less) grams of stylus pressure??  :lol

I, like  everyone else am very curious and would like to hear the recordings for myself. I have heard at least 3 different cuts of the "hawaii chant": vigotone 3 LP set, UM17, Official and also a couple of mixes of the slide guitar part for that. Have to admit its not my very favorite bit of SMiLE and I was also disillusioned to find out kinneywhakpoola was just "made up".  :'(  :'(  :'(

The IGGS discs sounds like the only one with something that could be unique.?

And not to belittle anyone, I'm sure we all would agree that with all the many recordings official and bootleg out and about, only someone with a great deal of knowledge and experience of the SMiLE sessions is truly qualified to make the determination by "ear and memory" alone.

As for myself, I know am I am not THAT good. I would have to have at hand a music player with files of all the other known mixes and make a comparative analysis of each track!

As for the snap, crackle and pops - after digitization the transient noise should clean up very well.

I would NOT play these again after that was done. Arizona dry air was probably not the worst storage conditions BUT they should be sealed
in a humidity/ temperature environment.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: FatherOfTheMan Sr101 on March 03, 2013, 07:50:56 AM
I think he's talking about the existing acetates we have, the ones that have even booted.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: FatherOfTheMan Sr101 on March 03, 2013, 07:55:12 AM
The thing is guys, just the fact that a version of Great Shape featured somewhere in Heroes and Villians cut BY BRIAN is mind blowing. This is a historic piece of Smile, and it definitely could not have been seen before the box, because no matter what it would've been included in some form.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chris Brown on March 03, 2013, 08:31:26 AM
Can't thank you enough for the detailed posts Andy - one way or the other this stuff needs to be preserved and (ultimately) heard. 


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 03, 2013, 08:46:12 AM
Man oh man, I hope these make it out there somehow. Especially the IIGS mix you've described. I'd love to hear it, even if lower quality.

Was one of the DYLW mixes that you heard anything like this?

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ncpuef

Thanks for sharing. It's very similar to that one! The kick drum is just as prominent but the mix is different (very quiet harpsichord) and there was no lead vocal over some/most of it. My guess is that the Durrie acetate mix, then, was made sometime around 1/5/67 because of its similarity to this one.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 03, 2013, 08:50:31 AM
My best guess in quality comparison is some of the CIFOTM acetates. Listenable, but not necessarily release-level quality (whatever that term means, because I've heard worse quality stuff on official releases).

Hi Andy, these CITFOTM acetates that you keep referring to... I'm not sure if I'm familiar with them. Do they include any vocals that didn't make it on the box set?

Like the beginning of this one but with a lot more crackles and pops. ->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEcP_NH1K8I


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mr. Cohen on March 03, 2013, 09:04:42 AM
OK, sure, these acetates may have a 'G' rating. But as we've seen time and time again, if the songs ever became publicly available, someone on here with a copy Pro Tools would put together a patched up version that would play quite nice. I mean, shoot, we saw how hard of a time the box set compilers had with effectively using the pristine Humble Harv demos. The version of "IIGS" on the box is positively stone age.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 03, 2013, 09:13:29 AM
I, like  everyone else am very curious and would like to hear the recordings for myself. I have heard at least 3 different cuts of the "hawaii chant": vigotone 3 LP set, UM17, Official and also a couple of mixes of the slide guitar part for that. Have to admit its not my very favorite bit of SMiLE and I was also disillusioned to find out kinneywhakpoola was just "made up".  :'(  :'(  :'(

In this mix of Worms, you can't even hear the "slide guitar" during the chant...not even as a faint bleed-through like you hear on the Good Vibrations 30 Years boxset version of Worms!

The IGGS discs sounds like the only one with something that could be unique.?

And not to belittle anyone, I'm sure we all would agree that with all the many recordings official and bootleg out and about, only someone with a great deal of knowledge and experience of the SMiLE sessions is truly qualified to make the determination by "ear and memory" alone.

As for myself, I know am I am not THAT good. I would have to have at hand a music player with files of all the other known mixes and make a comparative analysis of each track!

Unfortunately, I've listened to the SMiLE pieces in my possession too many times, so I know instantly if I'm listening to something I've heard, something I've heard but a slightly different mix, or something completely new.

I'm confident the IIGS-H&V edits aren't well-circulated, judging by the reactions of the people I told, and I'd be somewhat surprised if that IIGS wasn't new. The weird thing is that it's so different from the other versions out there, so why hasn't it popped up anywhere before? If anything, it's only solidified my hope that more unheard stuff is out there. I'm assuming that members Vosse Posse might be in possession of some unique pieces but who knows. Now hopefully other stuff starts popping up.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 03, 2013, 09:15:28 AM
So Andy, how did your listening session with these acetates transpire?  Did you go with Durrie to her storage facility in Arizona and pick them up or did you go over to her house and put them on a stereo system or did she let you borrow them temporarily to listen to them at your house? Where did you listen to them? And to your knowledge, has Alan Boyd and/or Mark Linette heard these acetates first hand?

And I think you said that something (one of the acetates or a tape) surfaced after September and it was too late to include it on the Smile release? Did I read that right?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 03, 2013, 09:31:36 AM
Man oh man, I hope these make it out there somehow. Especially the IIGS mix you've described. I'd love to hear it, even if lower quality.

Was one of the DYLW mixes that you heard anything like this?

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ncpuef

Your file sounds very similar to UM-17- Bicycle Rider (1st vocal Overdub).

All the bkgd. vocal parts there but way down in the mix compared to the lead voc. /instruments
the UM file is not cut-off like yours and you can hear the fuzzguitar fade out.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 03, 2013, 09:34:39 AM
So Andy, how did your listening session with these acetates transpire?  Did you go with Durrie to her storage facility in Arizona and pick them up or did you go over to her house and put them on a stereo system or did she let you borrow them temporarily to listen to them at your house? Where did you listen to them? And to your knowledge, has Alan Boyd and/or Mark Linette heard these acetates first hand?

And I think you said that something (one of the acetates or a tape) surfaced after September and it was too late to include it on the Smile release? Did I read that right?

I heard them here in L.A. at a third party's house. And as of yesterday morning, the acetates had yet to be heard by the people who should hear them.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 03, 2013, 09:45:40 AM
I, like  everyone else am very curious and would like to hear the recordings for myself. I have heard at least 3 different cuts of the "hawaii chant": vigotone 3 LP set, UM17, Official and also a couple of mixes of the slide guitar part for that. Have to admit its not my very favorite bit of SMiLE and I was also disillusioned to find out kinneywhakpoola was just "made up".  :'(  :'(  :'(

In this mix of Worms, you can't even hear the "slide guitar" during the chant...not even as a faint bleed-through like you hear on the Good Vibrations 30 Years boxset version of Worms!

The IGGS discs sounds like the only one with something that could be unique.?

And not to belittle anyone, I'm sure we all would agree that with all the many recordings official and bootleg out and about, only someone with a great deal of knowledge and experience of the SMiLE sessions is truly qualified to make the determination by "ear and memory" alone.

As for myself, I know am I am not THAT good. I would have to have at hand a music player with files of all the other known mixes and make a comparative analysis of each track!

Unfortunately, I've listened to the SMiLE pieces in my possession too many times, so I know instantly if I'm listening to something I've heard, something I've heard but a slightly different mix, or something completely new.

I'm confident the IIGS-H&V edits aren't well-circulated, judging by the reactions of the people I told, and I'd be somewhat surprised if that IIGS wasn't new. The weird thing is that it's so different from the other versions out there, so why hasn't it popped up anywhere before? If anything, it's only solidified my hope that more unheard stuff is out there. I'm assuming that members Vosse Posse might be in possession of some unique pieces but who knows. Now hopefully other stuff starts popping up.

Andy, thanks for your reply.

All I will disagree with you on is the bit about, "Unfortunately, I've listened ... too many times."
I consider THAT fortunate!  ;)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 03, 2013, 09:53:32 AM
Thanks for the info, Andy. Wonderful to hear there is a fragment of Heroes in existence that incorporates IIGS!

Let's hope the digital files get circulated one way or another soon.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: monicker on March 03, 2013, 10:21:44 AM
Andy, thanks for describing the contents of the mythical Durrie Parks acetates (!) What a dream come true, i imagine. What you’ve described is pretty mind-blowing.

I think that, at the very least, at some point someone should put together a really detailed list of the edits and exact versions of the sections that are heard on these because these are vintage Brian sequences that he at least had at one point. Even if the sound is not “usable” or “unlistenable” or whatever (this is missing pieces of Smile we’re talking about here...any sound quality is usable/listenable, in my opinion) or there’s not that much “new” stuff on these, these represent a snapshot of where Brian was in terms of sequencing. That’s pretty huge on many levels. Consider that sequencing the songs/album was one of, if not the, biggest factor that did Smile in...and here are a few examples of what he had in mind at one point for sequencing some of these songs. What a revelation. 

^ She mentioned the acetates in the early 2000s, which made the rounds on the internet (i can't find a link right now) and Donny just said in this thread that he talked to her about them in the '90s when he knew her personally. She did not just recently remember that she had them when she was approached for TSS.  

Waiting for Andy to say whatever he's gonna say about these. Is this the Andy from the Smile Shop/the early days of this board?

Yep! Good to see you still around, EM. It's been a while..I feel...older. Here's your link from Durrie: http://troun.tripod.com/durrie.html *EDIT* Donny L beat me to it!

Hey, you know what i still listen to from time to time? Right As Rain! All 15 seconds of it, haa  :)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Ebb and Flow on March 03, 2013, 11:13:44 AM
For those worried about the condition of the acetates, the Library of Congress has recently been using a system to transfer old recordings that doesn't even use a stylus.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11851842


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 03, 2013, 11:41:25 AM
For those worried about the condition of the acetates, the Library of Congress has recently been using a system to transfer old recordings that doesn't even use a stylus.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11851842

This has also been done with a laser turntable but I am not certain if those play anything other than LPs
and 45s. And they are expensive.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 03, 2013, 11:48:06 AM
Truly incredible to hear your stories Andy.

I'm hoping we get to hear these tracks one day. What a shame they didn't make the box set.

I can't help but feel Durrie Parks comes across as a little shady in this whole thing


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: DonnyL on March 03, 2013, 11:56:29 AM
I can't help but feel Durrie Parks comes across as a little shady in this whole thing

NOPE. Not at all.

And why would you say that? This is the kind of stuff that makes people not want to participate in this board, me included.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 03, 2013, 12:03:35 PM
For those worried about the condition of the acetates, the Library of Congress has recently been using a system to transfer old recordings that doesn't even use a stylus.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11851842

This has also been done with a laser turntable but I am not certain if those play anything other than LPs
and 45s. And they are expensive.

If they are dirty, forget the Laser turntable...."the ELP’s tiny laser-beam styli have next to no mass and cannot move dust particles out of their way. Any speck of dirt, however minute, is read by the lasers along with the music. In his review of the ELP in Stereophile, Michael Fremer compared the playback of an uncleaned record to the sound of someone munching potato chips."


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: DonnyL on March 03, 2013, 12:06:36 PM
Yep! Good to see you still around, EM. It's been a while..I feel...older. Here's your link from Durrie: http://troun.tripod.com/durrie.html *EDIT* Donny L beat me to it! That's your interview?! So cool! I remember reading that in 2000, I think, and later referencing that interview for years, repeatedly begging my sources to pass along the message to Durrie that people would pay to dig through her storage and get these.

Cool that you got to hear them!

Yes, I was the source of the 'interview' and the whole thing that came after.

Durrie and I worked in the same office in Phoenix in 1998-99. I actually came to know her BEFORE I knew who she was. This is the sort of strange things that connect the Beach  Boys to my life.

We were sitting in the break room, and I happened to walk in, and I decided maybe I should get to know this new lady. We got to talking about music, and she mentioned something funny about that band 'Limp Bizket' that was big at the time. I said, 'I don't really listen to that stuff, I basically just listen to the Beach Boys'. To which she casually replied, 'I had the pleasure of watching Brian Wilson work in the '60s. Best left hand in the business' or something. 'REALLY?!?' ... 'Yes, my ex-husband used to work with him'. 'Who's your ex-husband?' 'Van Dyke Parks' ...

... and on and on

She used to share a lot of memories about her time w/ Brian and Marilyn, as well as the rest of the folks in that scene around '66-'67. You get a real living sense of what these people might have been like. I thought it would be cool to share some of these stories in a formal interview, but I'm afraid that's where things went kind of wrong. It seems like maybe she didn't want to share much publicly for whatever reason, so the resulting 'interview' became just a few general thoughts. I lost contact with her for awhile, though we still keep in touch from time to time.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: OGoldin on March 03, 2013, 12:07:37 PM
Let's hope that the good new stuff can be on future pressings of the box set.

Those of us who have it can make do with Spotify etc!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 03, 2013, 12:29:39 PM
On the surface it would seem the single most historically important part of these from what we know so far is the H&V edit featuring "Great Shape", as it would be the ONLY Brian edit of this song using the studio tracks that so far exists anywhere. Of course, the Humble Harv demo is one thing but having a Brian-approved studio edit of this on acetate would truly be a moment in time and a snapshot of whatever Brian was thinking or testing out on that exact day as he was in the studio.

That is the main purpose of acetates, it's a journal/sketchbook kind of thing for the client to have taken home and listened with fresh ears outside the studio. Cassettes made them all but obsolete soon after for this purpose.

But if the IIGS/Heroes thing stands as anything, it is perhaps the only surviving proof of what Brian's intentions were with that sequencing using the actual studio tapes he had been assembling and not a tape of him previewing a song for a guest.

Historical? Yes, to the Nth degree, or in other words hell yeah. :)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: monicker on March 03, 2013, 12:43:59 PM
Donny, what an amazing story about meeting/working with Durrie. How surreal. I love hearing wild stuff like that, thanks for sharing.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 03, 2013, 12:57:37 PM
I can't help but feel Durrie Parks comes across as a little shady in this whole thing.

Another dumb remark. Second one in two days. I think you're shady, Shady!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 03, 2013, 01:01:04 PM
What a shame they didn't make the box set.

Didn't you say that earlier in the thread?  At least once already?   ;D


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: runnersdialzero on March 03, 2013, 01:05:30 PM
Nothing "shady" about this. The woman has something extremely unique that she wishes to part with. I'm sure if VDP gave a sh*t about them or the money, he'd have attempted to get them. Who's to say he's not seeing profit out of this as part of a settlement we're not aware of, anyway?

What's the alternative? Hoarding them? Their contents have seemingly already been archived by the people who run the Beach Boys show nowadays, that's good enough for me, I just hope they end up in good hands.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 03, 2013, 01:13:26 PM
Their contents have seemingly already been archived by the people who run the Beach Boys show nowadays, that's good enough for me, I just hope they end up in good hands.

From the most recent updates I got the impression these had *not* yet been archived much less heard by such people in any official capacity, wasn't the comment along the lines that the people who should hear them (in an official way) have not yet actually heard them? This from someone who has heard them, remember.

Anyone in an unofficial or official capacity who has had any dealings with the Smile material would probably agree that the H&V edit is the real find, again if there was such a reel of tape anywhere to be found containing anything similar to that acetate, or even if there were another copy of this specific edit anywhere else in the archives on acetate, chances are a piece of it would have gone on the box, unless they did have it but sound quality overruled historical value.

Well, at least until Bruce's legendary mega-mix copy of Heroes can be located... ;D


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 03, 2013, 01:29:49 PM

Well, at least until Bruce's legendary mega-mix copy of Heroes can be located... ;D

Better we save our pennies and dimes to hire someone to break into Bruce's garage, for his acetates, then to pony up to buy Durrie'sDiscs.
we can get a lot more bang for the bucks. Heck, he's probably got 20-30 SMiLE acetates just begging to be heard....


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 03, 2013, 01:56:46 PM

Well, at least until Bruce's legendary mega-mix copy of Heroes can be located... ;D

Better we save our pennies and dimes to hire someone to break into Bruce's garage, for his acetates, then to pony up to buy Durrie'sDiscs.
we can get a lot more bang for the bucks. Heck, he's probably got 20-30 SMiLE acetates just begging to be heard....

 :-D

Better take along a strong crew for that job, there may be literally dozens of cases full of new Izod "alligator" golf shirts and Docksiders from his years of touring stacked on top of the crate marked "Smile Acetates - 1967".

And make sure it's the right Heroes mega-mix, I'd hate to pay good money only to drop the needle and find out it was a test pressing of the 12" disco remix of Heroes, slated to be the next release if "Here Comes The Night" had become a hit on the dancefloor... :)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 03, 2013, 02:00:49 PM

Well, at least until Bruce's legendary mega-mix copy of Heroes can be located... ;D

Better we save our pennies and dimes to hire someone to break into Bruce's garage, for his acetates, then to pony up to buy Durrie'sDiscs.
we can get a lot more bang for the bucks. Heck, he's probably got 20-30 SMiLE acetates just begging to be heard....

+1  ;)

Who are Bruce's heirs, if he has any?  :lol


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 03, 2013, 02:01:57 PM
How about "Doe's Eleven" for the job? ;D


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Peter Reum on March 03, 2013, 02:06:17 PM
As with the Elvis/Sun demos that he cut for his mother, eventually these will surface when it is economically worthwhile to release them.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 03, 2013, 02:07:05 PM
How about "Doe's Eleven" for the job? ;D

If they can't get the acetates, maybe they could at least confirm if his home security system plays the Barry Manilow version of "I Write The Songs" at ear-splitting volume whenever someone trips the motion detectors... :-D


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 03, 2013, 02:18:05 PM
Or get pistol whipped by Bruce himself.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: DonnyL on March 03, 2013, 02:34:19 PM
Their contents have seemingly already been archived by the people who run the Beach Boys show nowadays, that's good enough for me, I just hope they end up in good hands.

From the most recent updates I got the impression these had *not* yet been archived much less heard by such people in any official capacity, wasn't the comment along the lines that the people who should hear them (in an official way) have not yet actually heard them? This from someone who has heard them, remember.

Anyone in an unofficial or official capacity who has had any dealings with the Smile material would probably agree that the H&V edit is the real find, again if there was such a reel of tape anywhere to be found containing anything similar to that acetate, or even if there were another copy of this specific edit anywhere else in the archives on acetate, chances are a piece of it would have gone on the box, unless they did have it but sound quality overruled historical value.

Well, at least until Bruce's legendary mega-mix copy of Heroes can be located... ;D

The interesting thing that has not been mentioned thus far is:

If there is an acetate, there was (or is) a 1/4" mono reel of the same thing, in high fidelity. So they may have them in the vaults, or they may have been lost, or taped over after the acetate was cut,  or out there somewhere ...

In fact, in an interview I read w/ Chuck Britz, he mentioned specifically that he would give Brian and the boys 1/4" reels to take home and listen to. Many musicians of the era had home reel players for such purposes. Record execs also had 'em in their offices.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 03, 2013, 02:36:26 PM
Does anyone else have the compilation "Remember the Zoo"?
Nevermind

They stuck the BWPS thing on there - my bad.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 03, 2013, 02:38:56 PM
So Andy, how did your listening session with these acetates transpire?  Did you go with Durrie to her storage facility in Arizona and pick them up or did you go over to her house and put them on a stereo system or did she let you borrow them temporarily to listen to them at your house? Where did you listen to them? And to your knowledge, has Alan Boyd and/or Mark Linette heard these acetates first hand?

And I think you said that something (one of the acetates or a tape) surfaced after September and it was too late to include it on the Smile release? Did I read that right?

I heard them here in L.A. at a third party's house. And as of yesterday morning, the acetates had yet to be heard by the people who should hear them.

In which case, someone isn't trying anything like hard enough, and it's not in the tower. Exactly how difficult can it be to call Capitol or get in touch with Mark, Alan or even Brian ?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: DonnyL on March 03, 2013, 02:48:07 PM
Also just noticed that all the old articles from my site are still up -- some interesting stuff that hasn't surfaced elsewhere if anyone is looking for some reading material:

http://troun.tripod.com/articles.html


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on March 03, 2013, 03:16:54 PM
This H&V / IIGS edit has me very excited. This could be a version of H&V that was wiped from existence, we know he did this. This could be the only copy.  I couldn't honestly care about the quailty.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 03, 2013, 03:26:54 PM
Their contents have seemingly already been archived by the people who run the Beach Boys show nowadays, that's good enough for me, I just hope they end up in good hands.

From the most recent updates I got the impression these had *not* yet been archived much less heard by such people in any official capacity, wasn't the comment along the lines that the people who should hear them (in an official way) have not yet actually heard them? This from someone who has heard them, remember.

Anyone in an unofficial or official capacity who has had any dealings with the Smile material would probably agree that the H&V edit is the real find, again if there was such a reel of tape anywhere to be found containing anything similar to that acetate, or even if there were another copy of this specific edit anywhere else in the archives on acetate, chances are a piece of it would have gone on the box, unless they did have it but sound quality overruled historical value.

Well, at least until Bruce's legendary mega-mix copy of Heroes can be located... ;D

The interesting thing that has not been mentioned thus far is:

If there is an acetate, there was (or is) a 1/4" mono reel of the same thing, in high fidelity. So they may have them in the vaults, or they may have been lost, or taped over after the acetate was cut,  or out there somewhere ...

In fact, in an interview I read w/ Chuck Britz, he mentioned specifically that he would give Brian and the boys 1/4" reels to take home and listen to. Many musicians of the era had home reel players for such purposes. Record execs also had 'em in their offices.

I have posted elsewhere about that, just not on this board, but yes - that is absolutely correct what you said about acetates coming from a tape source, no doubt.

My contention, and it's been this way for a long time, touches on what you said: We (fans) would bemoan the fact that *only* an acetate, a scratchy-distorted-lo fi-whatever- acetate was all that we had for a few choice Smile fragments or sections. Namely Barnyard, parts of Heroes, Child Is Father, and various others...now adding to that list if and when confirmed Brian's test edit of Heroes featuring Great Shape. But all of that on acetate came from a tape, obviously - tapes which have not surfaced and probably will not.

I'd say at this point some of those are most likely to fall into the past tense "was" category, otherwise the box set and other releases would not have sourced cleaned-up acetates and would have instead used the source tapes.

Also, even in the Jules Seigel article, and others, it is mentioned that Brian played unlabeled acetates for assembled guests and friends, Mark Volman isn't specific but mentions sitting around a table with headphones listening, Seigel is very specific that Brian knew the acetates by the cuts of the grooves...the most specific description from 1967 matches this batch of acetates to a "T".

As far as why they didn't carry out reels of tape as journal dubs or whatever versus acetates, who knows. Even the fabled limousine ride to KHJ with the Heroes mix in July '67, it was described as Brian hand-carrying an acetate that night. Obviously Chuck was there, he knows what he did and didn't do, yet we can find more specific references to acetates as we can Brian threading up a reel-to-reel with his latest Smile work.

Yet it does seem too that there are some pieces of Smile which only survived on acetate, suggesting the tapes were wiped or taped over with a new part after the original part wasn't measuring up after listening at home. Or the various test mixes like Heroes, they were just attempts to hear a sequence that was fleeting at that exact time, and probably changed later that day or that week into something else, so that test edit tape might just be discarded or wiped.

Just pure speculation on a topic that has definitely been in my mind for some time!  :) Summing it up, I'd think if there were tapes from which the acetates were cut, they'd have been found and used (or at least heard) rather than cleaning up acetate sources as was done in a few cases.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mitchell on March 03, 2013, 03:36:39 PM
Amazing stuff, Andy! Thanks for sharing!

Also, yes, hopefully these end  up in good hands and are made available for all to hear someday.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: AvanTodd on March 03, 2013, 04:03:33 PM
I'm confident the IIGS-H&V edits aren't well-circulated, judging by the reactions of the people I told, and I'd be somewhat surprised if that IIGS wasn't new. The weird thing is that it's so different from the other versions out there, so why hasn't it popped up anywhere before? If anything, it's only solidified my hope that more unheard stuff is out there. I'm assuming that members Vosse Posse might be in possession of some unique pieces but who knows. Now hopefully other stuff starts popping up.

I don't know how accurate it is, but I've always read that the final take of IIGS had been cut from the reel (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10153.msg182271.html#msg182271).  That could explain why it's never turned up anywhere.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 03, 2013, 04:22:42 PM
Has anybody put together an approximation edit of that description of the IIGS/H&V acetate yet that they can share?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chris Brown on March 03, 2013, 04:38:52 PM
Has anybody put together an approximation edit of that description of the IIGS/H&V acetate yet that they can share?

Only in my head - music-wise though, just running through those sections what I'm "hearing" sounds really cool.  Depending on where IIGS cuts off, the Ab7 segues perfectly into the tonic C# of Heroes and "My Children Were Raised" specifically.

Great post about the tapes too guitarfool - I agree that a lot of priceless stuff was probably taped over, although the fact that new things are still being discovered this late in the game leads me to think (or hope, anyways) that there are still little tidbits like this to be discovered, whether through acetates, master tapes, whatever.  Whomever is still out there holding onto rare material, the day is going to come where they (or their kin) are going to want to cash in.  Given the sheer volume of material recorded during that time period, I think the probability is high that there are more acetates and tapes still in existence than anyone has heard.  Not a "Surf's Up" 2nd movement or anything, but things along the lines of test edits and alternate mixes.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 03, 2013, 05:00:03 PM
Hey, you know what i still listen to from time to time? Right As Rain! All 15 seconds of it, haa  :)

Ha! I still listen to your track as well!

DonnyL, it's a small world! I'd love to hear more stories if you have them.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: DonnyL on March 03, 2013, 06:07:57 PM
Hey, you know what i still listen to from time to time? Right As Rain! All 15 seconds of it, haa  :)

Ha! I still listen to your track as well!

DonnyL, it's a small world! I'd love to hear more stories if you have them.

Indeed it is ...

I recall her saying that Dennis and Carl were 'sweethearts' (she loved them), Al & Bruce were not around much and Mike was ... let's say not well-liked by Brian's circle of friends at the time.

She was present for a session for 'A Day in the Life of a Tree', and I asked her if that was a put-on ... she said absolutely not; it was a very very personal, special song for Brian.

Oh and she said it was hard to believe but Brian had never eaten salads before, and he really got into vegetables after she started making them salads ... which started the 'Vegetables' kick.

Danny Hutton stuck around to the difficult period, much later than anyone else. She had good things to say about him.

She gave me a copy of 'Discover America' (which she produced), and I still love that record !

I can't remember much else that I would be comfortable with posting here, but I remember I gave her a tape of my music, and she was very supportive ... that meant a lot to me.

Oh, and my guess based on my understanding of the situation is that her daughter and son-in-law would be the ones who orchestrated the sale. Durrie is a kind and trusting person, who maybe got ripped off in the past, and I think her daughter has sort of been making sure she doesn't get a raw deal with these kinds of things.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 03, 2013, 06:09:37 PM
If anything, it's only solidified my hope that more unheard stuff is out there. I'm assuming that members Vosse Posse might be in possession of some unique pieces but who knows. Now hopefully other stuff starts popping up.

It seems that somebody's were lost in a flood/fire, lost with storage unit contents. Seems like someone's were stolen or lost. Still hope.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Heywood on March 03, 2013, 08:23:25 PM


Who are Bruce's heirs, if he has any?  :lol

The last thing at least one of them will need is an inheritance! !


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on March 04, 2013, 12:00:11 AM
Once again this board proves that its totally rad. Anyone else think this thread should be pinned  at the top… must be one of the most fascinating and worthy subjects to arise since TSS itself or the reunion. Hoping this one will run and run…

Many deep and sincere thanks to all involved for their rivetting contributions.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on March 04, 2013, 12:18:40 AM
So any thoughts on when these acetates date from?

I was going to say late '66, but the "Time To Get Alone" track doesn't fit that timescale unless that was given to Van later. For the other songs though, October / November '66 would be my guess. Seeing as most of the H&V we have comes from post January '67, we could have some very exciting documents here from the most active period of Smile sessions.

Also, it mentions on the sale info, but I can't remember if Andy mentioned this, an alternate verse to Cabinessence. (I think by 20 /20 version they mean the version we all know, the only version) So this could be an actual alternate version of the verse track????

I'm guessing the alternate version of Wind Chimes is the August '66 version.

Why do I feel these acetates are going to raise more questions than they answer?

Ah yes, because its Smile.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 04, 2013, 12:39:41 AM
Oh my god!! I need to hear these tracks.

I know this question must have been covered a bunch of times but does anyone know exactly when and why Brian gave the acetates away. Did he keep any for himself? Did capitol not what to keep possession of them?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on March 04, 2013, 12:54:04 AM
Oh my god!! I need to hear these tracks.

I know this question must have been covered a bunch of times but does anyone know exactly when and why Brian gave the acetates away. Did he keep any for himself? Did capitol not what to keep possession of them?

I should think they were given to Van as reference. Brian used them as dailies, in the film sense. Although tape was often used for dailies, acetate seems to have been Brian's preferred medium. There was probably a ton of them, and if this lot make money we may see more surface.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on March 04, 2013, 02:13:00 AM
Oh my god!! I need to hear these tracks.

I know this question must have been covered a bunch of times but does anyone know exactly when and why Brian gave the acetates away. Did he keep any for himself? Did capitol not what to keep possession of them?

I should think they were given to Van as reference. Brian used them as dailies, in the film sense. Although tape was often used for dailies, acetate seems to have been Brian's preferred medium. There was probably a ton of them, and if this lot make money we may see more surface.

… and I suspect the seeming lack of perceived value among those who were there at the time stems from the fact that these were either rejected mixes or, if approved, retained in other mediums in far superior quality. Back in the days when I started my writing career, all my rejected draughts went in the bin… these days they'd be worth millions of course (as firelighters…)  ;D


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Alan Smith on March 04, 2013, 02:16:22 AM
...Anyone else think this thread should be pinned  at the top… must be one of the most fascinating and worthy subjects to arise since TSS itself or the reunion. Hoping this one will run and run…

Many deep and sincere thanks to all involved for their rivetting contributions.

Hell, yeah +1!!!  What a great read.

Big thanks to Andy for the insights and background + Donny L for his cool story (and links)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Esoteric on March 04, 2013, 03:17:57 AM
Also just noticed that all the old articles from my site are still up -- some interesting stuff that hasn't surfaced elsewhere if anyone is looking for some reading material:

http://troun.tripod.com/articles.html

Thank you, Donny. I've been enjoying it immensely over the last hour (even prompted me to bust out Adult Child for the first time in a while) and there is plenty I've either never read before or only seen quotes from. I too have an old Tripod site (last updated in 1998) that's still up there. Damn their pop-ups! But thanks again, good reading.

Back to the Durrie Parks acetates...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 04, 2013, 05:37:54 AM
Oh my god!! I need to hear these tracks.

I know this question must have been covered a bunch of times but does anyone know exactly when and why Brian gave the acetates away. Did he keep any for himself? Did capitol not what to keep possession of them?

I should think they were given to Van as reference. Brian used them as dailies, in the film sense. Although tape was often used for dailies, acetate seems to have been Brian's preferred medium. There was probably a ton of them, and if this lot make money we may see more surface.

Thanks!

I'm fascinated about Brian's attitude towards Smile after the whole thing collapsed.

It took others too make him re-record it and then to evetually release the sessions. Incredible he had no interest in the public hearing his greatest work. Such a humble guy.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: The Heartical Don on March 04, 2013, 06:05:39 AM
Oh my god!! I need to hear these tracks.

I know this question must have been covered a bunch of times but does anyone know exactly when and why Brian gave the acetates away. Did he keep any for himself? Did capitol not what to keep possession of them?

I should think they were given to Van as reference. Brian used them as dailies, in the film sense. Although tape was often used for dailies, acetate seems to have been Brian's preferred medium. There was probably a ton of them, and if this lot make money we may see more surface.

Thanks!

I'm fascinated about Brian's attitude towards Smile after the whole thing collapsed.

It took others too make him re-record it and then to evetually release the sessions. Incredible he had no interest in the public hearing his greatest work. Such a humble guy.

With all due respect: I doubt if Brian ever thought about Pet Sounds or SMiLE as being: 'his greatest work'. I think he's not that much the type of artist who puts the matter of a big audience for his achievements at the top spot. IMHO his perspective on these things is a somewhat fleeting one; nothing is carved in stone and dogma. He may have thought at the time: not finished, work is difficult at this time, I can't get Mike warmed up to the project enough; Van Dyke is showing signs of disinterest because it's going so slow, I'd better shelve it... (my conjectures); and then there was the matter of his psychological difficulties addressing themselves, of course.

I wonder about Brian's attitude towards the whole cult that grew around SMiLE over the years. He must have heard and/or read about it... and perhaps he found it embarrassing, I don't know (if anyone knows about any comments of his about this, please fill in).

Humble and modest he is, yes.  He may have seen SMiLE as 'just a piece of unfinished work' for a very long time. He cited quite a few other albums as his favourite of all: Friends  is a well-known example. A  lovely album, but IMHO quite slight compared to the majesty of Pet Sounds and SMiLE.

Brian is, as in many other matters, pretty inscrutable about this. I don't know how much effort the other members had to make to get 'Our Prayer' and 'Cabinessence' on the 20/20 collection. As for 'Surf's Up', he had to be pushed, IIRC.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 04, 2013, 06:08:26 AM
I think Brian is more comfortable about the SMiLE sessions after listening to them again in 2011.  He was happy to be reminded about his prime of music making.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 04, 2013, 07:29:10 AM
This may be revisiting a few discussions that had opened up some pretty heated debates in the past, but with Brian's attitude towards Smile up to the point where it did start getting released in dribs and drabs, leading up to of course his own live staging of the album...I got the impression he was at times falling on the sword, or in other lingo "taking one for the team", by dismissing or downplaying Smile. He'd say "it was inappropriate music for the Beach Boys", "we never finished that", "I destroyed the tapes", "I couldn't follow up Good Vibrations" any number of quotes like that.

And it all seemed to be designed to deflect attention away from the music, whether or not a cult following of sorts had been slowly developing around not only the legend and mythology of Smile but also behind what pieces of the music itself had been recycled or reused on other Beach Boys projects and those recycled pieces were often the highlight of whatever album or collection they appeared on.

A poignant though obviously biased moment for me was when Rolling Stone gave the 1993 box set a 5-star review, and the reviewer wrote what many people may have been feeling who had never heard that much of Smile: It was hard to move beyond that specific disc of the box set, the music was in fact that compelling and that good, the Smile music had a tendency for some listeners to overshadow what came after it, no matter how good the other songs were.

At that time, a lot of fans who had now heard a decent chunk of Smile thought along the lines of why didn't this come out? Or why don't they put more of it out?

"Taking one for the team" suggests a sacrifice made in order to help the larger cause at hand, I think that was one factor for Brian. I also think, and this is a stretch and a big assumption, that he *knew* what he had created and he knew how good it really was, but for various reasons to bring it out into the open at certain times up into the 2000's was not possible.

The live performances, preparations in 2003-4...remember one of the first rehearsals they filmed, where the band is running vocals and whatnot in the house and Brian gets this look on his face that you can't really put into words, and he looks shaken to the point he doesn't continue? Whatever that was - it would be rude and insensitive to even guess - but whatever those feelings were that welled up as they ran through parts of Smile were part of what he was holding inside about this music.

I get the feeling he loved this music, it was his product from a great time in his middle 20's when a lot of guys think they have the world on a string and can do anything, and he had a group of friends around him who were loyal and encouraging even on his more unusual projects and fleeting whims of ideas. And the music was always the undercurrent, it was the product of that environment.

Then, without getting into the how's and why's which have been discussed plenty of times in the past, that fast it was all gone. And the music got picked off the bone like Turkey on the table at Thanksgiving, and the rest got stashed in the vaults, only to be picked at here and there but remaining mostly closed up.

That had to hurt, but in some way I think Brian got protective and dismissive of it because opening it up on a bigger level - at certain periods of history - would also open up more than just the vaults.

And consider this - he could remember very specific items and details about it decades later - it was never totally shut out or shut down in his mind. Usually something that mattered that much never leaves your thoughts, which seems to be the case with Smile. Add Van Dyke Parks into that factor as well - without prompting, he was able to recall lyrics he composed one day some 40 or so years prior to getting the phone call. Which means he never forgot either, no matter how much he might have dismissed it in interviews or when asked about Smile.

But the process which began at Royal Festival Hall in 2004, continued with the Smile Sessions box, and continues with whatever other discoveries eventually come down the road, were not only a catharsis but also a vindication if not a validation that the music was, indeed, *that good* (never mind the mythology) and this man in his mid 20's was truly doing something unique in pop music...music that people not only enjoy but actually love and take inspiration from.

So it took decades, and his reasons for brushing it aside may just remain his own private reasons, but when the music was celebrated and those around him in greater numbers were celebrating it, I think it gave Brian a chance to celebrate it and enjoy it as well, especially after the vaults were open for the public to see and hear, perhaps literally and figuratively. Just my opinion.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mr. Cohen on March 04, 2013, 08:01:48 AM
It is tough to imagine some of the thoughts Brian must've had about Smile. Imagine being the writer of "Cabinessence" and then having Al freakin' Jardine be unimpressed with your cover of "Cottonfields"? To top it off, he records his own version and it's a huge hit in Europe.  What a strange world it must've felt like...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 04, 2013, 08:34:49 AM
It is tough to imagine some of the thoughts Brian must've had about Smile. Imagine being the writer of "Cabinessence" and then having Al freakin' Jardine be unimpressed with your cover of "Cottonfields"? To top it off, he records his own version and it's a huge hit in Europe.  What a strange world it must've felt like...

How about this analogy: I used the visual of a turkey on the Thanksgiving dinner table in the long post above: What if you invite the in-laws and family to the house for Thanksgiving, you make a full dinner spread with the centerpiece being a fresh Turkey, for which you tried a "new" stuffing, something other than Grandma's traditional family recipe, different than usual but perhaps better.

So all the brothers and nephews and sisters and aunts and whatnot sit down at the table, notice the stuffing isn't Grandma's (but won't admit it's good) and can't get past the fact that you didn't use Grandma's stuffing like the family had done for years. The talk isn't about the goodness of the meal, but rather about the damned stuffing.

So you're naturally a little offended, but take it in stride.

Then later that night, well after dinner, you're watching TV and happen to walk into the kitchen where you can see those same relatives who were complaining about the stuffing now picking the meat off the leftover turkey and saying how good it is, making leftover sandwiches, etc. yet when you served it at the official dinner table, it was all about that stuffing.

You'd probably be upset, or at least offended in some way.

Not to connect that analogy to anyone or anything specific to the years 1967-73 and Smile, but there were a few cases where such an analogy would at least be relevant in the saga.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: The Heartical Don on March 04, 2013, 08:49:11 AM
@Guitarfool2002 -

that's a mighty fine call. Thank you.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 04, 2013, 09:02:43 AM
Great stuff, DonnyL. Thanks for the stories/links! Btw, you're a good guesser!

So any thoughts on when these acetates date from?

I was going to say late '66, but the "Time To Get Alone" track doesn't fit that timescale unless that was given to Van later. For the other songs though, October / November '66 would be my guess. Seeing as most of the H&V we have comes from post January '67, we could have some very exciting documents here from the most active period of Smile sessions.

Also, it mentions on the sale info, but I can't remember if Andy mentioned this, an alternate verse to Cabinessence. (I think by 20 /20 version they mean the version we all know, the only version) So this could be an actual alternate version of the verse track????

I'm guessing the alternate version of Wind Chimes is the August '66 version.

I wish that was the case for Cabin Essence. I was most looking forward to hearing the CE acetates, followed by Worms, in the hopes of something new (but hey, what I heard ended up being better!).

CE, if I remember correctly, was very similar to one of the Secret Smile tracks. It's verse instrumental with vocal doings/Who Ran the Iron Horse/verse instrumental/Who Ran the Iron Horse/Grand Coulee. The only thing that was different to me was possibly the vocal mix on Grand Coulee.

One other sort of interesting thing..I seem to remember a piece of CE being on one of the other acetates..I can't remember if it was the Worms or H&V acetate.

As for WindChimes, it's not the August version with celeste. It's the more used backing track with marimba. I can't remember if the vocals were there or not, and I'm not sure why it's labeled alternate version. I think this version has been in circulation.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Roger Ryan on March 04, 2013, 09:28:10 AM
...As for WindChimes, it's not the August version with celeste. It's the more used backing track with marimba. I can't remember if the vocals were there or not, and I'm not sure why it's labeled alternate version. I think this version has been in circulation.

Did the acetate version hard edit into the multiple piano fade as on the GV box set version or did it just end?

At any rate, as has been noted a couple of times in earlier posts, this feels like pretty conclusive proof that "I'm In Great Shape" started life as the bridge following the the first two verses in "H & V" (just like in the Humble Harv demo) and was eventually replaced by the similar sounding "Cantina" bridge.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 04, 2013, 09:31:40 AM
Did you hear the “Time To Get Alone” acetate? Is there any chance they have given it the wrong title (Look)? Because its presence sure seems weird (or else this makes it’s presence in the early setlists for ‘Brian Wilson Present Smile’ seem LESS weird).


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mr. Cohen on March 04, 2013, 09:54:15 AM
Maybe Brian wanted Van Dyke to write some lyrics for it? He wrote a few songs with Van Dyke after Smile, such as "Sunflower Maiden".


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 04, 2013, 10:08:19 AM
...As for WindChimes, it's not the August version with celeste. It's the more used backing track with marimba. I can't remember if the vocals were there or not, and I'm not sure why it's labeled alternate version. I think this version has been in circulation.

Did the acetate version hard edit into the multiple piano fade as on the GV box set version or did it just end?

It just ended, I think.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 04, 2013, 10:09:40 AM
Did you hear the “Time To Get Alone” acetate? Is there any chance they have given it the wrong title (Look)? Because its presence sure seems weird (or else this makes it’s presence in the early setlists for ‘Brian Wilson Present Smile’ seem LESS weird).

I didn't listen to it. In fact I don't recall seeing it, which is kind of weird.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 04, 2013, 11:22:27 AM
...As for WindChimes, it's not the August version with celeste. It's the more used backing track with marimba. I can't remember if the vocals were there or not, and I'm not sure why it's labeled alternate version. I think this version has been in circulation.

Did the acetate version hard edit into the multiple piano fade as on the GV box set version or did it just end?

At any rate, as has been noted a couple of times in earlier posts, this feels like pretty conclusive proof that "I'm In Great Shape" started life as the bridge following the the first two verses in "H & V" (just like in the Humble Harv demo) and was eventually replaced by the similar sounding "Cantina" bridge.

Yes - it certainly seems to precede 'my children were raised' in the same way cantina did. Amazing that this edit has materialised. I'm fascinated by andy's description of it sounding fuller with similar instrumentation as false barnyard. Desperate to hear this!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 04, 2013, 11:23:10 AM
Maybe Brian wanted Van Dyke to write some lyrics for it? He wrote a few songs with Van Dyke after Smile, such as "Sunflower Maiden".

Maybe "Time To Get Alone" is "Sunflower Maiden".


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: hypehat on March 04, 2013, 11:24:27 AM
Did you hear the “Time To Get Alone” acetate? Is there any chance they have given it the wrong title (Look)? Because its presence sure seems weird (or else this makes it’s presence in the early setlists for ‘Brian Wilson Present Smile’ seem LESS weird).

There's every possibility he worked with Danny Hutton on it during the Smile era - when was the Redwood version cut?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 04, 2013, 11:30:09 AM
Did you hear the “Time To Get Alone” acetate? Is there any chance they have given it the wrong title (Look)? Because its presence sure seems weird (or else this makes it’s presence in the early setlists for ‘Brian Wilson Present Smile’ seem LESS weird).

There's every possibility he worked with Danny Hutton on it during the Smile era - when was the Redwood version cut?

During the wild honey sessions I thought.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 04, 2013, 11:39:41 AM
I don't know why anybody would think "Time To Get Alone" would be part of the Smile sessions. The Redwood sessions were supposedly on October 14 and 15, 1967, and the Beach Boys session is thought to be a few days before that (Bellagio site).


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 04, 2013, 12:06:33 PM
I thought I heard rumors that TTGA was an early inclusion for the Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE tour. Maybe it was Peter Reum who confirmed that, but I cannot remember.

Otherwise, it's musically, lyrically and thematically different from SMiLE, and I really don't hear the connection.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Paulos on March 04, 2013, 12:12:20 PM
So has no-one bought them yet? Maybe someone should persuade Elijah Wood to buy them, he's a massive Beach Boys and Smile fan and must have a fair amount of money from the LoTR films. And Wilfred.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bicyclerider on March 04, 2013, 12:13:48 PM
I thought I heard rumors that TTGA was an early inclusion for the Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE tour. Maybe it was Peter Reum who confirmed that, but I cannot remember.

Otherwise, it's musically, lyrically and thematically different from SMiLE, and I really don't hear the connection.

It seems strange that Van would have an acetate of this as he wasn't working with Brian at this time-although he was friends with Danny who may have given it to him.

Could the alternate Wind chimes be the fabled mix Brian played repeatedly for Vosse as he described in his Fusion interview?  The one thing he mentioned that stood out was a different mix on the vocals in the second section, they faded in and out to give a percussion like effect.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 04, 2013, 12:35:52 PM
I thought I heard rumors that TTGA was an early inclusion for the Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE tour. Maybe it was Peter Reum who confirmed that, but I cannot remember.

Otherwise, it's musically, lyrically and thematically different from SMiLE, and I really don't hear the connection.

"Time To Get Alone" was on the setlist for Brian's Smile tour in early 2004.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Micha on March 04, 2013, 12:40:00 PM
In two clearly spliced edits (speaking of which, I can't remember if IIGS had the tape distortion effect the earlier takes had, but if it did it was much, much more subtle), IGGS went directly into the harpsichord playing that's underneath "my children were raised, you know they...",

Can you describe these "two clearly spliced edits", please? I don't know how to imagine these.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: DonnyL on March 04, 2013, 12:58:49 PM
Did you hear the “Time To Get Alone” acetate? Is there any chance they have given it the wrong title (Look)? Because its presence sure seems weird (or else this makes it’s presence in the early setlists for ‘Brian Wilson Present Smile’ seem LESS weird).

It makes sense that the 'Time to Get Alone' was in Durrie's possession, as they were close to Danny Hutton during this period. This would date from a bit later than the Smile stuff of course. Or Durrie got it later on from Danny - VERY possible (trust me).


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 04, 2013, 01:20:25 PM
Oh my god!! I need to hear these tracks.

I know this question must have been covered a bunch of times but does anyone know exactly when and why Brian gave the acetates away. Did he keep any for himself? Did capitol not what to keep possession of them?

I should think they were given to Van as reference. Brian used them as dailies, in the film sense. Although tape was often used for dailies, acetate seems to have been Brian's preferred medium. There was probably a ton of them, and if this lot make money we may see more surface.

Yeah I think the blanks cost about .50 then - easy & fast to produce with a hot cutter so quite an economical method to store and review the day's work.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bicyclerider on March 04, 2013, 01:25:15 PM
...As for WindChimes, it's not the August version with celeste. It's the more used backing track with marimba. I can't remember if the vocals were there or not, and I'm not sure why it's labeled alternate version. I think this version has been in circulation.

Did the acetate version hard edit into the multiple piano fade as on the GV box set version or did it just end?

At any rate, as has been noted a couple of times in earlier posts, this feels like pretty conclusive proof that "I'm In Great Shape" started life as the bridge following the the first two verses in "H & V" (just like in the Humble Harv demo) and was eventually replaced by the similar sounding "Cantina" bridge.

Yes - it certainly seems to precede 'my children were raised' in the same way cantina did. Amazing that this edit has materialised. I'm fascinated by andy's description of it sounding fuller with similar instrumentation as false barnyard. Desperate to hear this!

Yes - the fuller instrumentation means that either this section was rerecorded with different instrumentation after the October session that produced the box set version OR Brian held a session to overdub over the box set track.  Either way I assume this was done at a session booked as Heroes and Villains - we're missing a fair amount of tapes for Heroes sessions listed in the Smile Sessions booklet in November and December.  Too bad there aren't dates on the acetates!  Andy does the acetate start with IIGS - what precedes it?  In other words is it edited in to the Heroes verses as Brian played it on the HumblenHarv demo in November, or differently?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 04, 2013, 01:27:59 PM
I thought I heard rumors that TTGA was an early inclusion for the Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE tour. Maybe it was Peter Reum who confirmed that, but I cannot remember.

Otherwise, it's musically, lyrically and thematically different from SMiLE, and I really don't hear the connection.

Was that the odd song out that was included? Seems like it was something else. Something that some people in some circles had sort of speculated for a long time prior might be a SMiLE era Friends era song.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 04, 2013, 01:28:55 PM
I thought I heard rumors that TTGA was an early inclusion for the Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE tour (maybe because Bubba Ho-Tep just mentioned it three posts above but nobody can be bothered to read his knowledgable posts). Maybe it was Peter Reum who confirmed that, but I cannot remember.

Otherwise, it's musically, lyrically and thematically different from SMiLE, and I really don't hear the connection.

Was that the odd song out that was included? Seems like it was something else. Something that some people in some circles had sort of speculated for a long time prior might be a SMiLE era Friends era song.


Diamond Head & Times To Get Alone were listed.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 04, 2013, 01:35:07 PM
I thought I heard rumors that TTGA was an early inclusion for the Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE tour (maybe because Bubba Ho-Tep just mentioned it three posts above but nobody can be bothered to read his knowledgable posts). Maybe it was Peter Reum who confirmed that, but I cannot remember.

Otherwise, it's musically, lyrically and thematically different from SMiLE, and I really don't hear the connection.

Was that the odd song out that was included? Seems like it was something else. Something that some people in some circles had sort of speculated for a long time prior might be a SMiLE era Friends era song.
Diamond Head

Bingo!

I agree with DonnyL, I imagine Danny Hutton shared an acetate with Van Dyke from his [DH's] time with Brian.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: runnersdialzero on March 04, 2013, 01:43:10 PM
The initial idea was to perform Smile tracks along with some other Smile-era stuff (i.e. "Time To Get Alone") or Smile-like material (i.e. "Diamond Head"). They wisely decided to just do the former.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bicyclerider on March 04, 2013, 02:19:35 PM
So the early version of Heroes would go Verses to town full of Heroes and Villains/ a Capella/ IIGS/ children were raised/ 3 score and five/ whistle bridge/ "true" Barnyard fade?  That follows the cantina structure, but since The November demo didn't include the a Capella part, I wonder if it would come after 3 score and five.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: runnersdialzero on March 04, 2013, 02:30:42 PM
Worth noting that while this is infinitely interesting and is worth more than any fan guess, much like the Cantina version, it's probably just a work in progress structure that Brian felt worked one day of his life and should not be angrily argued for as the definitive end-all-be-all of "Heroes And Villains" structures.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 04, 2013, 02:31:12 PM
I thought I heard rumors that TTGA was an early inclusion for the Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE tour. Maybe it was Peter Reum who confirmed that, but I cannot remember.

Otherwise, it's musically, lyrically and thematically different from SMiLE, and I really don't hear the connection.

It seems strange that Van would have an acetate of this as he wasn't working with Brian at this time-although he was friends with Danny who may have given it to him.

Could the alternate Wind chimes be the fabled mix Brian played repeatedly for Vosse as he described in his Fusion interview?  The one thing he mentioned that stood out was a different mix on the vocals in the second section, they faded in and out to give a percussion like effect.





I didn't notice anything special about WindChimes.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 04, 2013, 02:32:56 PM
In two clearly spliced edits (speaking of which, I can't remember if IIGS had the tape distortion effect the earlier takes had, but if it did it was much, much more subtle), IGGS went directly into the harpsichord playing that's underneath "my children were raised, you know they...",

Can you describe these "two clearly spliced edits", please? I don't know how to imagine these.

What I mean is that some acetates have song fragments that are 3 or 4 seconds apart.

The IIGS/My Children/3 Score piece was definitely edited together, before making it to acetate (I'd imagine).


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: andy on March 04, 2013, 02:36:38 PM
...As for WindChimes, it's not the August version with celeste. It's the more used backing track with marimba. I can't remember if the vocals were there or not, and I'm not sure why it's labeled alternate version. I think this version has been in circulation.

Did the acetate version hard edit into the multiple piano fade as on the GV box set version or did it just end?

At any rate, as has been noted a couple of times in earlier posts, this feels like pretty conclusive proof that "I'm In Great Shape" started life as the bridge following the the first two verses in "H & V" (just like in the Humble Harv demo) and was eventually replaced by the similar sounding "Cantina" bridge.

Yes - it certainly seems to precede 'my children were raised' in the same way cantina did. Amazing that this edit has materialised. I'm fascinated by andy's description of it sounding fuller with similar instrumentation as false barnyard. Desperate to hear this!

Yes - the fuller instrumentation means that either this section was rerecorded with different instrumentation after the October session that produced the box set version OR Brian held a session to overdub over the box set track.  Either way I assume this was done at a session booked as Heroes and Villains - we're missing a fair amount of tapes for Heroes sessions listed in the Smile Sessions booklet in November and December.  Too bad there aren't dates on the acetates!  Andy does the acetate start with IIGS - what precedes it?  In other words is it edited in to the Heroes verses as Brian played it on the HumblenHarv demo in November, or differently?

I wish I could remember where it started. IIGS was either at the beginning of the acetate or just the start of a new fragment (meaning nothing was edited in beforehand).


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on March 04, 2013, 02:41:20 PM
So the early version of Heroes would go Verses to town full of Heroes and Villains/ a Capella/ IIGS/ children were raised/ 3 score and five/ whistle bridge/ "true" Barnyard fade?  That follows the cantina structure, but since The November demo didn't include the a Capella part, I wonder if it would come after 3 score and five.

Your guess is as good as mine. Whistling bridge was done in January I think, so this could have been an entirely different structure. People described a version of H&V with Barnyard and IIGS. This would have been the late '66 version(s) which Brian supposedly erased. In any case they're gone. If anything from that period of H&V comes to light, any tiny snippet, it will be very exciting.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on March 04, 2013, 02:50:14 PM
Too bad there aren't dates on the acetates!
Not counting TTGA, the other tracks were all recorded before Nov 66, I think the acetates date from around then. Remember that by January he was pretty much only working on H&V. IIGS was recorded in October '66, so any of this Heroes stuff should date from that period.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 04, 2013, 04:00:18 PM
Isn't one of the H&V acetates dated "2/15/" something, something? Presumably 1967, a session VDP attended.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on March 04, 2013, 04:05:34 PM
Oops, I didn't see that! OK, some are later.

I do still maintain though that because IIGS had been dropped from Heroes before Jan '67, this IIGS / Children were raised edit surely dates back to Oct - Dec


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 04, 2013, 04:17:06 PM
Oops, I didn't see that! OK, some are later.

I do still maintain though that because IIGS had been dropped from Heroes before Jan '67, this IIGS / Children were raised edit surely dates back to Oct - Dec

I agree.

Edit: I probably should have checked some dates before I agreed.  Someday. Maybe.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bicyclerider on March 04, 2013, 06:15:49 PM
I assume the IIGS acetate is the one pictured with the writing "Part II" on it -  i.e. part II of Heroes which at this point is section 2 and not side 2 which came in Feb 67?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 04, 2013, 07:06:42 PM
A disc marked "Worms" has "Part II" written on the sleeve in andy's pictures. Does one of the H&V disc have "Part II" on it?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Peter Reum on March 04, 2013, 08:27:13 PM
I had the chance to talk with Brian at the hotel one night during the premiere run of Smile. I told him I thought it was the most beautiful music I had heard from him. H e said back to me "That is the best work I ever did." The reasons he shelved Smile were multifaceted. The reason he finished Smile was that he wanted some peace about it.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 04, 2013, 10:15:39 PM
I had the chance to talk with Brian at the hotel one night during the premiere run of Smile. I told him I thought it was the most beautiful music I had heard from him. H e said back to me "That is the best work I ever did." The reasons he shelved Smile were multifaceted. The reason he finished Smile was that he wanted some peace about it.

Now Peter, Peter, Peter... we all know that anything done with The Beach Boys cannot possibly eclipse the work he's done since 1998 because it's a scientifically proven pact that they stifled his creativity for decades. I think he was joshing you.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 04, 2013, 10:20:55 PM
I thought I heard rumors that TTGA was an early inclusion for the Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE tour. Maybe it was Peter Reum who confirmed that, but I cannot remember.

Otherwise, it's musically, lyrically and thematically different from SMiLE, and I really don't hear the connection.

It was indeed on a very early setlist that someone showed to me pre-RFH (not in Brian's handwriting, btw) but so was "Diamond Head" and a few more non-Smile titles. That was evidently the first working rough and was very soon considerably refined. Why Durrie has a Redwood acetate is a mystery, although it may be germane that VPD worked on a lost song for them ("Sunflower Maiden")... or, given that the LA muso scene back then was of an incestuous nature and everyone knew everyone else, she somehow acquired it.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: rn57 on March 04, 2013, 11:04:33 PM
Well, I'd figure the reason Durrie had the TTGA acetate was that Danny Hutton gave it to Van Dyke. The two of them have been close friends since about 1965 - the flipside of Van Dyke's debut record, a 45 on MGM, was a Hutton composition, "Do What You Wanta."  I recall at least one interview where Van Dyke claimed to be the person who suggested the name Three Dog Night to Hutton (though this distinction has been generally accorded to Hutton's onetime girlfriend June Fairchild).



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Micha on March 04, 2013, 11:48:39 PM
In two clearly spliced edits (speaking of which, I can't remember if IIGS had the tape distortion effect the earlier takes had, but if it did it was much, much more subtle), IGGS went directly into the harpsichord playing that's underneath "my children were raised, you know they...",

Can you describe these "two clearly spliced edits", please? I don't know how to imagine these.

What I mean is that some acetates have song fragments that are 3 or 4 seconds apart.

The IIGS/My Children/3 Score piece was definitely edited together, before making it to acetate (I'd imagine).

OK, I think I got it now - you mean to say the three pieces were not a continuous recording (now that would have been sensational!) but went something like IIGS (unknown arrangement) - audible splice/short gap - harpsichord "children were raised" with older vocal arrangement - audible splice/short gap - three score and five. That's the two "clearly spliced edits" you mentioned?

Thanks for the clarification andy :), I hope it wasn't a dumb question.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: ash on March 05, 2013, 02:08:04 AM
sold.
1. looking forward to hearing these on beach boys central.
or
2. now we know whats holding up the box set
or
3. i don't want to think about it.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on March 05, 2013, 02:38:43 AM
sold.
1. looking forward to hearing these on beach boys central.
or
2. now we know whats holding up the box set
or
3. i don't want to think about it.

Hmmm… just tried buying and it allowed me to put them in my basket*. I'd've checked out but the $40 shipping costs to the UK put me off…


*  Maybe there's more than one set!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: The Heartical Don on March 05, 2013, 02:55:22 AM
sold.
1. looking forward to hearing these on beach boys central.
or
2. now we know whats holding up the box set
or
3. i don't want to think about it.

Hmmm… just tried buying and it allowed me to put them in my basket*. I'd've checked out but the $40 shipping costs to the UK put me off…


*  Maybe there's more than one set!

You mean they multiplicated it with a 3-D printer?   :o


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 05, 2013, 03:18:09 AM
sold.
1. looking forward to hearing these on beach boys central.
or
2. now we know whats holding up the box set
or
3. i don't want to think about it.

Hope you didn't bet the farm on that... jus' sayin'.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: AvanTodd on March 05, 2013, 03:22:46 AM
I'm honestly a little surprised they were able to get $10,000 for them.  Good for them.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 05, 2013, 03:30:37 AM
Nice payday for Durrie, I hope Van gets a slice too.

Let's hope it went to the right hands and not Zooey deschanel's or Diablo Cody's  ;D


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 05, 2013, 03:31:35 AM
So I wonder who bought them?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Micha on March 05, 2013, 03:33:12 AM
OK guys, we know someone here did, you might just as well admit it!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: The Heartical Don on March 05, 2013, 03:47:52 AM
So I wonder who bought them?

John Stamos.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: ash on March 05, 2013, 03:49:14 AM
sold.
1. looking forward to hearing these on beach boys central.
or
2. now we know whats holding up the box set
or
3. i don't want to think about it.

Hope you didn't bet the farm on that... jus' sayin'.
Fortunately i don't have a farm. Only a barnyard.
A barnyard that  is not in great shape without that acetate.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 05, 2013, 03:55:19 AM
So I wonder who bought them?

John Stamos.

He can hang it up next to his Kokomo gold record and his people magazine's most sexiest man alive cover.

Seriously though, it had to be either Capitol or Melinda who wrote the cheque


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: AvanTodd on March 05, 2013, 04:06:26 AM
So I wonder who bought them?

John Stamos.

He can hang it up next to his Kokomo gold record and his people magazine's most sexiest man alive cover.

Seriously though, it had to be either Capitol or Melinda who wrote the cheque

I doubt it.  BRI possibly but just as likely a private collector.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 05, 2013, 04:10:31 AM
Maybe VDP bought them back.  Has Lee Dempsey been around lately?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 05, 2013, 04:58:52 AM
OK guys, we know someone here did, you might just as well admit it!

We're having renovations done to the house at the moment and I managed to persuade my girlfriend that we were far better off investing the 'new kitchen fund' in some tatty old, warped records, none of which contain a single, finished song. Man, I can't wait to play her the fragment of Heroes & Villains incorporating I'm In Great Shape via two spliced edits ...


... oh wait - better not actually play it as it will degrade a bit more.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 05, 2013, 05:00:54 AM
Before people start PMing me to oblivion, I haven't really just bought the Durrie Parks acetates.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 05, 2013, 05:40:52 AM
I say bgas bought them.... ;D


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 05, 2013, 06:20:22 AM
I'm pretty sure Fishmonk stole them


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on March 05, 2013, 06:21:56 AM
I'm thinking… lampshades, or ashtrays?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: The Heartical Don on March 05, 2013, 06:25:44 AM
Phil Cohen bought them. I am certain.

It's his definitive trump card for when he'll have returned to these hallowed grounds.

He's out for revenge, folks. You'll see...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 05, 2013, 06:25:53 AM

It was indeed on a very early setlist that someone showed to me pre-RFH (not in Brian's handwriting, btw) but so was "Diamond Head" and a few more non-Smile titles. That was evidently the first working rough and was very soon considerably refined.

Do You Like Worms
Prayer
Time To Get Alone
Bicycle Rider
Diamond Head
Holidays
Song For Children
Fall Breaks And Back To Winter
I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night
Wind Chimes
Heroes And Villians
Surf's Up
Good Vibrations
Cabin Essence
Wonderful
I'm In Great Shape
Child Is Father Of The Man
The Elements
Vega-Tables
The Old Master Painter


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 05, 2013, 06:28:55 AM
I wish Brian did that setlist in 2003 to warm up for the smile tour in 2004.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 05, 2013, 06:31:32 AM
Phil Cohen bought them. I am certain.

It's his definitive trump card for when he'll have returned to these hallowed grounds.

He's out for revenge, folks. You'll see...

He'll return and post a video of the acetates being thrown into a blazing fire with Mrs O Leary's cow playing the the background. We hear Phil whispering over the music, "It's over Andrew, it's over".



Oh man, I need to get a more interesting job  :lol


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 05, 2013, 06:33:11 AM
Phil Cohen bought them. I am certain.

It's his definitive trump card for when he'll have returned to these hallowed grounds.

He's out for revenge, folks. You'll see...

He'll return and post a video of the acetates being thrown into a blazing fire with Mrs O Leary's cow playing the the background. We hear Phil in the background whispering "It's over Andrew, it's over".



Oh man, I need to get a more interesting job  :lol

I think you did, soap opera writer. :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Lowbacca on March 05, 2013, 06:35:32 AM
He'll return and post a video of the acetates being thrown into a blazing fire with Mrs O Leary's cow playing the the background. We hear Phil whispering over the music, "It's over Andrew, it's over".
Now that is shady.  :-\


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 05, 2013, 06:41:54 AM
I can't help but feel we just lost any chance we might have had to hear these.

There isn't enough material to base a physical release around, and I doubt these will end up on a download site. (iTunes, etc...)

Why do I feel like I've just walked a mile in Phil's shoes  ;)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 05, 2013, 06:59:13 AM
I say bgas bought them.... ;D

I'll post sound files for anything I really think is different


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: The Heartical Don on March 05, 2013, 06:59:34 AM
Phil Cohen bought them. I am certain.

It's his definitive trump card for when he'll have returned to these hallowed grounds.

He's out for revenge, folks. You'll see...

He'll return and post a video of the acetates being thrown into a blazing fire with Mrs O Leary's cow playing the the background. We hear Phil whispering over the music, "It's over Andrew, it's over".



Oh man, I need to get a more interesting job  :lol

One of the funniest posts I saw here...  :lol


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 05, 2013, 07:04:24 AM
Phil Cohen bought them. I am certain.

It's his definitive trump card for when he'll have returned to these hallowed grounds.

He's out for revenge, folks. You'll see...

He'll return and post a video of the acetates being thrown into a blazing fire with Mrs O Leary's cow playing the the background. We hear Phil whispering over the music, "It's over Andrew, it's over".



Oh man, I need to get a more interesting job  :lol

One of the funniest posts I saw here...  :lol
Agreed, we could write fan-fiction about AGD VS Phil. ;D


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on March 05, 2013, 07:16:18 AM
Phil Cohen bought them. I am certain.

It's his definitive trump card for when he'll have returned to these hallowed grounds.

He's out for revenge, folks. You'll see...

He'll return and post a video of the acetates being thrown into a blazing fire with Mrs O Leary's cow playing the the background. We hear Phil whispering over the music, "It's over Andrew, it's over".


Nah… he'll prepare them for release – packaging, artwork, tracklist, pressed and ready to ship… then cancel the release.

Then, he'll remaster them, prepare new packaging and liner notes, press them uop and have them ready to ship, then cancel the rlease.

Then, he'll prepare them for release – packaging, artwork, tracklist, pressed and ready to ship… then cancel the release.

Then, he'll remaster them, prepare new packaging and liner notes, press them uop and have them ready to ship, then cancel the rlease.

Then, he'll prepare them for release – packaging, artwork, tracklist, pressed and ready to ship… then cancel the release.

Then, he'll remaster them, prepare new packaging and liner notes, press them uop and have them ready to ship, then cancel the rlease.

Then, he'll prepare them for release – packaging, artwork, tracklist, pressed and ready to ship… then cancel the release.

Then, he'll remaster them, prepare new packaging and liner notes, press them uop and have them ready to ship, then cancel the rlease.

Then, he'll prepare them for release – packaging, artwork, tracklist, pressed and ready to ship… then cancel the release.

Then, he'll remaster them, prepare new packaging and liner notes, press them uop and have them ready to ship, then cancel the rlease.

Then, he'll prepare them for release – packaging, artwork, tracklist, pressed and ready to ship… then cancel the release.

Then, he'll remaster them, prepare new packaging and liner notes, press them uop and have them ready to ship, then cancel the rlease.

Then, he'll prepare them for release – packaging, artwork, tracklist, pressed and ready to ship… then cancel the release.

Then, he'll remaster them, prepare new packaging and liner notes, press them uop and have them ready to ship, then cancel the rlease.

Then, he'll prepare them for release – packaging, artwork, tracklist, pressed and ready to ship… then cancel the release.

Then, he'll remaster them, prepare new packaging and liner notes, press them uop and have them ready to ship, then cancel the rlease.

Then, he'll prepare them for release – packaging, artwork, tracklist, pressed and ready to ship… then cancel the release…

and so on, until he keels over laughing at our frustration.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on March 05, 2013, 07:37:50 AM
I think they'll see the light of day, there has already been a digital made from them. Once that happens its just a matter of time. And I can be patient, oh yes my pretties......


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mooger Fooger on March 05, 2013, 08:11:48 AM
I also dont hold any hope of hearing whatever interesting snippets are on the discs. I doubt anyone who just forked out 10k for the items is going to be overly altruistic in sharing the digital recordings. Perhaps our one rsmote hope is approaching the selling agency and seeing if the will allow a copy of the file for a fee. Otherwise we are sol in ever hearing it.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 05, 2013, 08:43:35 AM
So I wonder who bought them?

(http://photos.lasvegassun.com/media/img/photos/2010/03/30/pawnstars5_t653.jpg?214bc4f9d9bd7c08c7d0f6599bb3328710e01e7b)

Rick: Write 'em up, Chum...
Chumlee: What are ass tates?
Rick: ACETATES!
Corey: They're old records or something
Old Man: I'll smile when someone buys those things from us...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: rab2591 on March 05, 2013, 08:48:04 AM
:lol


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: hypehat on March 05, 2013, 09:29:10 AM
Hey guys, I'm pretty zonked out on painkillers and cough syrup now. Any idea why I appear to be £10,000 into my overdraft and this bailiff is taking all my stuff?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 05, 2013, 09:44:59 AM
Hey guys, I'm pretty zonked out on painkillers and cough syrup now. Any idea why I appear to be £10,000 into my overdraft and this bailiff is taking all my stuff?

Congratulations, yours was the winning bid and you are officially the new owner of a recently discovered collection of Bay City Rollers acetates!

Hopefully you recall that trans-continental telephone call you made asking me to place a proxy bid in your name for this collection...I tried to press the issue and clarify that you wanted to pay that much money for them, as 10,000 sounded a bit steep, but you'd hear none of it and insisted on placing the bid. "I want them, and I'll pay 10,000, end of story, place the bid!" was the exact request.

The gem of the set is a very early version of "Saturday Night", which at that time was still called "Thursday Night", but after the producer asked the other band members to chant "T-H-U-R-S-D-A-Y" while crawling around on the studio floor during a long session, the rhythm guitarist refused to participate, and they soon added handclaps, sped up the tempo, and changed the hook to Saturday. The acetate now in your collection includes what may be the only surviving copy of the "Thursday chant version" of that classic song.

Honestly, I thought you meant the Beach Boys acetate collection, but you were very insistent...





Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 05, 2013, 09:55:29 AM
Craig is on fire.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: The Heartical Don on March 05, 2013, 10:12:59 AM
Hey guys, I'm pretty zonked out on painkillers and cough syrup now. Any idea why I appear to be £10,000 into my overdraft and this bailiff is taking all my stuff?

Congratulations, yours was the winning bid and you are officially the new owner of a recently discovered collection of Bay City Rollers acetates!

Hopefully you recall that trans-continental telephone call you made asking me to place a proxy bid in your name for this collection...I tried to press the issue and clarify that you wanted to pay that much money for them, as 10,000 sounded a bit steep, but you'd hear none of it and insisted on placing the bid. "I want them, and I'll pay 10,000, end of story, place the bid!" was the exact request.

The gem of the set is a very early version of "Saturday Night", which at that time was still called "Thursday Night", but after the producer asked the other band members to chant "T-H-U-R-S-D-A-Y" while crawling around on the studio floor during a long session, the rhythm guitarist refused to participate, and they soon added handclaps, sped up the tempo, and changed the hook to Saturday. The acetate now in your collection includes what may be the only surviving copy of the "Thursday chant version" of that classic song.

Honestly, I thought you meant the Beach Boys acetate collection, but you were very insistent...





 :lol :lol :lol

the plot thickens...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: The Heartical Don on March 05, 2013, 10:13:48 AM
I guess Mike Love bought the lot, by the way.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: monicker on March 05, 2013, 10:35:50 AM
I wonder how these were digitized and by who. Was it a professional job or just someone who had no idea what s/he was doing, running the output of a whatever record player into the soundcard of a laptop or something? I am scared. 


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 05, 2013, 10:37:54 AM
Craig is on fire.

Stop, drop, and roll.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: LeeDempsey on March 05, 2013, 11:25:04 AM
Maybe VDP bought them back.  Has Lee Dempsey been around lately?

Hi Cam!  :wave  Yep, still around, but a wife and a kid can really put a damper on the old Beach Boys collecting budget.  $10,000 is WAY out of my league these days.  Now when I was 28 and single...

About as steep as I've been able to get lately is $300 for a still-sealed original mono Pet Sounds!  :o

Lee


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: LeeDempsey on March 05, 2013, 11:29:53 AM
Hey guys, I'm pretty zonked out on painkillers and cough syrup now. Any idea why I appear to be £10,000 into my overdraft and this bailiff is taking all my stuff?

Congratulations, yours was the winning bid and you are officially the new owner of a recently discovered collection of Bay City Rollers acetates!

Hopefully you recall that trans-continental telephone call you made asking me to place a proxy bid in your name for this collection...I tried to press the issue and clarify that you wanted to pay that much money for them, as 10,000 sounded a bit steep, but you'd hear none of it and insisted on placing the bid. "I want them, and I'll pay 10,000, end of story, place the bid!" was the exact request.

The gem of the set is a very early version of "Saturday Night", which at that time was still called "Thursday Night", but after the producer asked the other band members to chant "T-H-U-R-S-D-A-Y" while crawling around on the studio floor during a long session, the rhythm guitarist refused to participate, and they soon added handclaps, sped up the tempo, and changed the hook to Saturday. The acetate now in your collection includes what may be the only surviving copy of the "Thursday chant version" of that classic song.

Honestly, I thought you meant the Beach Boys acetate collection, but you were very insistent...


LOL!  But if you think $10,000 is bad, there's a set of Partridge Family TV show production discs on eBay right now for a measly $1,000,000...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Micha on March 05, 2013, 11:37:19 AM
Phil Cohen bought them. I am certain.

It's his definitive trump card for when he'll have returned to these hallowed grounds.

He's out for revenge, folks. You'll see...

You convinced me!

Thank goodness he's banned, imagine him bitching endlessly about Capitol not wanting to spend that little money and... no, wait, don't imagine him.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Paulos on March 05, 2013, 12:31:18 PM
Phil wouldn't be interested in the acetates anyway, he's obsessed with 'CD product'.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 05, 2013, 12:38:20 PM
Maybe VDP bought them back.  Has Lee Dempsey been around lately?

Hi Cam!  :wave  Yep, still around, but a wife and a kid can really put a damper on the old Beach Boys collecting budget.  $10,000 is WAY out of my league these days.  Now when I was 28 and single...

About as steep as I've been able to get lately is $300 for a still-sealed original mono Pet Sounds!  :o

Lee

All responsibility makes Lee a dull boy. ;-)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 05, 2013, 01:38:36 PM
Maybe VDP bought them back.  Has Lee Dempsey been around lately?

Hi Cam!  :wave  Yep, still around, but a wife and a kid can really put a damper on the old Beach Boys collecting budget.  $10,000 is WAY out of my league these days.  Now when I was 28 and single...

About as steep as I've been able to get lately is $300 for a still-sealed original mono Pet Sounds!  :o

Lee

I paid $63 for test pressings of BWPS.

I figured if the new 2 LP set was going for close to $50, who needs a LP jacket
when you can have early stamper test pressings.

Besides I didn't have the CD either, BWPS was something missing from my collection.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on March 05, 2013, 04:12:56 PM
So I wonder who bought them?

(http://photos.lasvegassun.com/media/img/photos/2010/03/30/pawnstars5_t653.jpg?214bc4f9d9bd7c08c7d0f6599bb3328710e01e7b)

Rick: Write 'em up, Chum...
Chumlee: What are ass tates?
Rick: ACETATES!
Corey: They're old records or something
Old Man: I'll smile when someone buys those things from us...


This would make for an excellent scripted episode (because they all are...). Rick buys precious Beach Boys SMiLE acetates. Corey writes them up and leaves them on the counter. Chumlee uses them as frisbees in the warehouse while eating Subway five-dollar-footlongs as the Old Man takes a nap.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Al Jardine: Pick Up Artist on March 05, 2013, 04:33:07 PM
oh god if they did that to those acetates I would burn the place down


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 05, 2013, 04:37:13 PM
It sure is SUSPICIOUSLY quiet around here all of a sudden!

Oh, to be a part of the PMs that are flying back and forth at the moment!  ;)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: KittyKat on March 05, 2013, 04:57:26 PM
Did they sell? I put them in the shopping cart, twice, and it rang me up for two for a mere $20,000, until I removed them from the cart. This was a few minutes ago. Yet, it mentioned the word "sold" at the bottom of the description, before I added them.  Shipping is only $20. What a bargain!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: FatherOfTheMan Sr101 on March 05, 2013, 05:15:12 PM
If they sold, i'd bet it's from someone here, who else would know/care enough to buy them?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Gertie J. on March 05, 2013, 05:18:21 PM
If they sold, i'd bet it's from someone here, who else would know/care enough to buy them?

for real!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 05, 2013, 05:27:42 PM
We underestimate the lurkers


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on March 05, 2013, 06:00:59 PM
If they sold, i'd bet it's from someone here, who else would know/care enough to buy them?

Don't be so naive, son.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: FatherOfTheMan Sr101 on March 05, 2013, 06:02:57 PM
i just mean, it's $ 10,000 guys, who'd spend that on something they know so little about?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on March 05, 2013, 06:18:31 PM
i just mean, it's $ 10,000 guys, who'd spend that on something they know so little about?

I know what you meant.
Again...don't be so naive.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: zatch on March 05, 2013, 06:22:14 PM
i just mean, it's $ 10,000 guys, who'd spend that on something they know so little about?

I know what you meant.
Again...don't be so naive.
Is that a hint that you bought them? :P


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on March 05, 2013, 06:29:44 PM
i just mean, it's $ 10,000 guys, who'd spend that on something they know so little about?

I know what you meant.
Again...don't be so naive.
Is that a hint that you bought them? :P

I may be crazy, but i'm not that crazy!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 05, 2013, 06:37:08 PM
SOMEBODY here is!  :3d


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on March 05, 2013, 06:50:21 PM
SOMEBODY here is!  :3d

C'mon now, this is exactly what I was saying in my previous posts. If you think the only people interested in these are on this board, you're livin' in a netherland.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 05, 2013, 07:16:59 PM
Color me a Netherlandian then! :) (just having a bit of fun, mate!)

Seriously, I wonder who DID buy them?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: KittyKat on March 05, 2013, 09:25:19 PM
If the site lets a person add the acetates twice (winding up with quantity: 2) to the shopping cart, there's no saying if they really sold yet or not. It doesn't seem like the most well-run website. So it's hard to say if they sold, until they either take the item down or put a larger notice that they've sold. I suppose they could be waiting for the check to clear or the credit card company full $10,000 credit to hit their account.

Unless there are multiple copies of these rare acetates.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: sweetdudejim on March 05, 2013, 11:41:34 PM
Worth noting that while this is infinitely interesting and is worth more than any fan guess, much like the Cantina version, it's probably just a work in progress structure that Brian felt worked one day of his life and should not be angrily argued for as the definitive end-all-be-all of "Heroes And Villains" structures.

I was thinking about this same basic idea earlier too. We all knew "I'm In Great Shape" was considered as a part of "Heroes And Villains" before this information, but it is interesting to now have a bit more of a clue as to where it might have been placed. But yeah, "Heroes..." is one of the songs that we know how Brian woulda done it, cuz he did indeed finish it, for better or worse by mid '67 (better in my opinion).

I think that one thing that we will probably never have much of a clue about though is what a standalone  "I'm In Great Shape"  track woulda been. I'm assuming it wouldn't have just been that one section. Maybe "I Wanna Be Around" and "Friday Night" woulda been involved, maybe not.

But anyways, I know somebody mentioned this earlier, but I think it would be interesting if somebody worked up a version of "Heroes..." with "Great Shape" edited in. Now obviously we don't have that exact take that Andy talked about, but it would still be interesting. And I would totally do it, but I have had no luck with editing the SMiLE things together before.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bossaroo on March 06, 2013, 12:17:06 AM
I slapped this together. It doesn't do that much for me but it's not bad. Ultimately I prefer I'm In Great Shape as a separate entity along with I Wanna Be Around and Friday Night. I like to think that's where IIGS was headed, and obviously that's how it ended up on BWPS.

https://soundcloud.com/bossaroo/heroes-villains-great-shape


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Micha on March 06, 2013, 12:22:49 AM
But anyways, I know somebody mentioned this earlier, but I think it would be interesting if somebody worked up a version of "Heroes..." with "Great Shape" edited in.

I did, didn't like it, junked it. :-D

SOMEBODY here is!  :3d

C'mon now, this is exactly what I was saying in my previous posts. If you think the only people interested in these are on this board, you're livin' in a netherland.

Let's hear what the Don has to say about this! ;D


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on March 06, 2013, 02:21:09 AM
Worth noting that while this is infinitely interesting and is worth more than any fan guess, much like the Cantina version, it's probably just a work in progress structure that Brian felt worked one day of his life and should not be angrily argued for as the definitive end-all-be-all of "Heroes And Villains" structures.

I was thinking about this same basic idea earlier too. We all knew "I'm In Great Shape" was considered as a part of "Heroes And Villains" before this information, but it is interesting to now have a bit more of a clue as to wear it might have been placed. But yeah, "Heroes..." is one of the songs that we know how Brian woulda done it, cuz he did indeed finish it, for better or worse by mid '67 (better in my opinion).

I think that one thing that we will probably never have much of a clue about though is what a standalone  "I'm In Great Shape"  track woulda been. I'm assuming it wouldn't have just been that one section. Maybe "I Wanna Be Around" and "Friday Night" woulda been involved, maybe not.

But anyways, I know somebody mentioned this earlier, but I think it would be interesting if somebody worked up a version of "Heroes..." with "Great Shape" edited in. Now obviously we don't have that exact take that Andy talked about, but it would still be interesting. And I would totally do it, but I have had no luck with editing the SMiLE things together before.

Well yes, the '67 Smiley version is the finished version. I'm just interested in hearing Heroes stuff from the missing period when IIGS was part of the song


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: The Heartical Don on March 06, 2013, 02:28:19 AM
But anyways, I know somebody mentioned this earlier, but I think it would be interesting if somebody worked up a version of "Heroes..." with "Great Shape" edited in.

I did, didn't like it, junked it. :-D

SOMEBODY here is!  :3d

C'mon now, this is exactly what I was saying in my previous posts. If you think the only people interested in these are on this board, you're livin' in a netherland.

Let's hear what the Don has to say about this! ;D

 :-[ I confess. I bought them. No great shakes, at least not on my old Dansette record player. The fact that the crystal needle is very worn, its pressure is circa 8 gm, and that the 3" speaker inbuilt in the lid is not really hifi either, may have contributed to a less than ecstatic listening experience. Especially the H&V/IIGS chimera was gruesome, and even after 100 listens I couldn't see what all the fuss is about.

So I donated the lot to a good cause: IIRC it's in North-Korea.

Hope this info helps.

THD.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 06, 2013, 06:52:37 AM
Worth noting that while this is infinitely interesting and is worth more than any fan guess, much like the Cantina version, it's probably just a work in progress structure that Brian felt worked one day of his life and should not be angrily argued for as the definitive end-all-be-all of "Heroes And Villains" structures.

Yes, it's clear that Heroes was in a constant sate of flux throughout 66/67, but that's excatly why this is such a cool find. Arguing anything about IIGS's placement within H&V was pretty futile when you were basing your argument on the Humble Harv demo, but now (potentially) we have evidence that Brian at least planned for it to precede "My Children Were Raised" at one point, just as Cantina would in the early 67 edit.

Listening to those two sections together on Bossaroo's mix (of course Andy has described a different version of IIGS than we've heard) there's a real sense of narrative - you get a much stronger sense of the male narrator running throughout the song. The intro to the song where he's been in this town so long etc, then the two sections we're discussing in this thread: he's describing waking up, having breakfast, appreciating the land, and going on to describe his kids growing up. If, like me, you believe Barnyard then to be the fade to this version, you then potentially have the same character describing his interactions with the barnyard, so it's much more a linear story told by one guy, rather than the more abstract Cantina edit that jumps to a scene about a girl in a cantina then an arrest and ends with a wordless section, or the even more abstract 45 edit that detours into the spooky bicycle rider theme.

Of course we don't know how Brian would've resolved other parts of the song at the time he apparently edited IIGS and My children together. Personally I'm with Bicycle Rider that if you swap cantina for IIGS and false barnyard fade for Barnyard you have it! Certainly the easiest and most logical solution based on what we have, even if it is not proven. I'd love to hear an edit that followed that sequence if anyone has the skills ....


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: zaval80 on March 06, 2013, 08:32:38 AM
Obviously Brian has tried every way to edit H&V, what with Bicycle Rider into verse and verse into Bicycle Rider edits we know from bootlegs, and all the others.

There is one thing I can't figure out, though. At the end of Track 10, CD1, SOT UM 17 we have the "Hold On" section - and there clearly is a skip at the very end of that section. I never paid much attention to it, thinking it was a digital skip on my copy - and, sure enough, on TSS box in the "Early Outtake Section" track (Track 24, CD4, TSS), "Hold On" does not have that skip.

But then I've got another copy of SOT UM 17, and then yet another one - and they all have the same skip. I decided to have a closer look and magnified the offending spot in the Soundforge - and it did not look like a digital skip to me, but rather as a (bad) edit.

Anybody noticed this, any thoughts? SOT UM discs sound very good on the overall, no other skips like that on them.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mr. Cohen on March 06, 2013, 09:04:27 AM
I had a theory awhile ago that people liked. Basically, I believe "In the Cantina" replaced "I'm In Great Shape" and "False Barnyard" (or whatever the heck it's called) really did replace "Barnyard". It makes sense structurally. And then Brian spun off the farming bits onto their song, "Barnyard Suite", which was never finished.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 06, 2013, 11:16:39 AM
If I understand andy correctly, IIGS probably does not have the distortion at the end, I take it as a butt cut edit before the distortion into butt cut edits of the next two sections. Yes? No? Anybody tried that as an approximation? Could a couple of or all versions of the IIGS instru track [sans Harv demo] be layered to simulate a version with fuller instrumentation? You know by someone not me, someone with the appropriate skills. Would that work?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 06, 2013, 11:35:55 AM
I had a theory awhile ago that people liked. Basically, I believe "In the Cantina" replaced "I'm In Great Shape" and "False Barnyard" (or whatever the heck it's called) really did replace "Barnyard". It makes sense structurally. And then Brian spun off the farming bits onto their song, "Barnyard Suite", which was never finished.

‘Barnyard’ seems so sluggish and slow, both in it’s “finished” recorded state and (especially) in the Humble Harv tape. While I don’t argue it could potentially be meant for the fade, it certainly seems like an odd choice. Doesn't have that "riding off into the sunset" feeling that...uh...."false barnyard" has.

And it has lyrics of it's own (though so does "good night m'baby sleep tight m'baby"). Were the lyrics intentionally discarded when it became a mere fade? And if so, what was it conceived as? Another interlude?

If these words were to appear at the end, are they saying that the entire wild west story was merely the fantasy of a simple farmer, who fell down in the pig pen and bumped his head and dreamed the song during 2 and a half minutes of unconciousness or something? Will he leave his hat on next time to cushion the blow?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 06, 2013, 11:49:39 AM
If I understand andy correctly, IIGS probably does not have the distortion at the end, I take it as a butt cut edit before the distortion into butt cut edits of the next two sections. Yes? No? Anybody tried that as an approximation? Could a couple of or all versions of the IIGS instru track [sans Harv demo] be layered to simulate a version with fuller instrumentation? You know by someone not me, someone with the appropriate skills. Would that work?

I've wondered about the distortion too. Why record it with distortion if Brian was not intending to edit out of the explosion effect? But then it's unlikely he'd have IIGS end in the distortion, then have the dum dum whistle distortion section replicate the effect shortly afterwards within the song. It's a shame Andy can't remember whether the explosion effect was present at the end of the IIGS he heard. If there's no tape explosion in the version he heard, maybe Brian had decided to feature the effect later in the song at that point (i.e. in the dum dum whistle distortion section).

Nothing sounds as good coming out of that explosion effect as Barnyard imo. Maybe when he was recording it at the end of IIGS he planned to follow it immediately with the Barnyard fade as per Mark Linnett's edit on TSS. Then a while later he decided to place some sections in between IIGS and Barnard (e.g. My Children were raised, dum dum whistle distortion). Pure, groundless speculation but there you go!

I would love to hear this edit of IIGS + My chldren more than anything right now, but I fear the acetates may have been snapped up by a collector with no will to share the recordings. Let's hope that's not the case.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 06, 2013, 11:53:46 AM
I had a theory awhile ago that people liked. Basically, I believe "In the Cantina" replaced "I'm In Great Shape" and "False Barnyard" (or whatever the heck it's called) really did replace "Barnyard". It makes sense structurally. And then Brian spun off the farming bits onto their song, "Barnyard Suite", which was never finished.

‘Barnyard’ seems so sluggish and slow, both in it’s “finished” recorded state and (especially) in the Humble Harv tape. While I don’t argue it could potentially be meant for the fade, it certainly seems like an odd choice. Doesn't have that "riding off into the sunset" feeling that...uh...."false barnyard" has.

And it has lyrics of it's own (though so does "good night m'baby sleep tight m'baby"). Were the lyrics intentionally discarded when it became a mere fade? And if so, what was it conceived as? Another interlude?

If these words were to appear at the end, are they saying that the entire wild west story was merely the fantasy of a simple farmer, who fell down in the pig pen and bumped his head and dreamed the song during 2 and a half minutes of unconciousness or something? Will he leave his hat on next time to cushion the blow?

Barnyard would work as a great fade with the crazy lyrics, for me. H&V was a comedy remember so it fulfills that description much better than the later incarnations that don't feature Barnard. The only thing that is comedic in the cantina edit is the "You're Under Arrest" shout. Both IIGS and Barnyard are lyrically humorous.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: rab2591 on March 06, 2013, 11:58:57 AM
If I understand andy correctly, IIGS probably does not have the distortion at the end, I take it as a butt cut edit before the distortion into butt cut edits of the next two sections. Yes? No? Anybody tried that as an approximation? Could a couple of or all versions of the IIGS instru track [sans Harv demo] be layered to simulate a version with fuller instrumentation? You know by someone not me, someone with the appropriate skills. Would that work?

This was my interpretation of his description of the transition from IIGS to the 'boys and girls' section (though I added the vocals to the harpsichord section): https://soundcloud.com/robert-borszich/im-in-decent-shape/s-334m0 (https://soundcloud.com/robert-borszich/im-in-decent-shape/s-334m0)

It's seems to work really well - though it's probably not even close to what Andy was talking about.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 06, 2013, 12:11:51 PM
I had a theory awhile ago that people liked. Basically, I believe "In the Cantina" replaced "I'm In Great Shape" and "False Barnyard" (or whatever the heck it's called) really did replace "Barnyard". It makes sense structurally. And then Brian spun off the farming bits onto their song, "Barnyard Suite", which was never finished.

‘Barnyard’ seems so sluggish and slow, both in it’s “finished” recorded state and (especially) in the Humble Harv tape. While I don’t argue it could potentially be meant for the fade, it certainly seems like an odd choice. Doesn't have that "riding off into the sunset" feeling that...uh...."false barnyard" has.

And it has lyrics of it's own (though so does "good night m'baby sleep tight m'baby"). Were the lyrics intentionally discarded when it became a mere fade? And if so, what was it conceived as? Another interlude?

If these words were to appear at the end, are they saying that the entire wild west story was merely the fantasy of a simple farmer, who fell down in the pig pen and bumped his head and dreamed the song during 2 and a half minutes of unconciousness or something? Will he leave his hat on next time to cushion the blow?

Heroes and Villains is such a mystery in part for the reasons you guys are talking about. At the time, Brian was into a particular period of Smile where he was doing this 3-section style song - Cabinessence, Do You Like Worms, and Heroes and Villains basically fall into that category. It seems as if at first just as Cabinessence had "Home on the Range," "Iron Horse," and "Crow Cries" and Worms had "Plymouth Rock," "Bicycle Rider," and Hawaiian Chant, Heroes seemed to have "Been in this Town," "Great Shape" and "Barnyard." However, it is really hard to see how those parts hang together in the way that it works for Cabin and Worms. And YET despite the fact that it doesn't seem to me, at least, that they don't hang together, it was nevertheless this that Brian saw as being the follow-up to Good Vibrations. So in some way, the whole thing must have made sense to him.

But as the project grows, things get more confusing. Suddenly you have Heroes and Villains Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4. And all those parts seem to have radically different parts within them. It becomes really difficult to even get the beginning of an idea as that what he's on about. I just spent a good amount of time yesterday listening specifically to the Heroes bits on Smile Sessions, and it doesn't help matters. For a while I was thinking that the "dit dit dit Heroes and-a Villains" parts would have been thought of as the chorus in the same way that "I'm pickin' up Good Vibrations" was but even that doesn't really seem to hold up as per the slates Brian was giving.

Anyway, I'd love to hear more discussion on this, but I don't know if this is the right place or where that place might be.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 06, 2013, 12:30:31 PM
I had a theory awhile ago that people liked. Basically, I believe "In the Cantina" replaced "I'm In Great Shape" and "False Barnyard" (or whatever the heck it's called) really did replace "Barnyard". It makes sense structurally. And then Brian spun off the farming bits onto their song, "Barnyard Suite", which was never finished.

‘Barnyard’ seems so sluggish and slow, both in it’s “finished” recorded state and (especially) in the Humble Harv tape. While I don’t argue it could potentially be meant for the fade, it certainly seems like an odd choice. Doesn't have that "riding off into the sunset" feeling that...uh...."false barnyard" has.

And it has lyrics of it's own (though so does "good night m'baby sleep tight m'baby"). Were the lyrics intentionally discarded when it became a mere fade? And if so, what was it conceived as? Another interlude?

If these words were to appear at the end, are they saying that the entire wild west story was merely the fantasy of a simple farmer, who fell down in the pig pen and bumped his head and dreamed the song during 2 and a half minutes of unconciousness or something? Will he leave his hat on next time to cushion the blow?

Heroes and Villains is such a mystery in part for the reasons you guys are talking about. At the time, Brian was into a particular period of Smile where he was doing this 3-section style song - Cabinessence, Do You Like Worms, and Heroes and Villains basically fall into that category. It seems as if at first just as Cabinessence had "Home on the Range," "Iron Horse," and "Crow Cries" and Worms had "Plymouth Rock," "Bicycle Rider," and Hawaiian Chant, Heroes seemed to have "Been in this Town," "Great Shape" and "Barnyard." However, it is really hard to see how those parts hang together in the way that it works for Cabin and Worms. And YET despite the fact that it doesn't seem to me, at least, that they don't hang together, it was nevertheless this that Brian saw as being the follow-up to Good Vibrations. So in some way, the whole thing must have made sense to him.

But as the project grows, things get more confusing. Suddenly you have Heroes and Villains Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4. And all those parts seem to have radically different parts within them. It becomes really difficult to even get the beginning of an idea as that what he's on about. I just spent a good amount of time yesterday listening specifically to the Heroes bits on Smile Sessions, and it doesn't help matters. For a while I was thinking that the "dit dit dit Heroes and-a Villains" parts would have been thought of as the chorus in the same way that "I'm pickin' up Good Vibrations" was but even that doesn't really seem to hold up as per the slates Brian was giving.

Anyway, I'd love to hear more discussion on this, but I don't know if this is the right place or where that place might be.

I think if you accept the two sided Heroes theory it makes more sense of a lot of the odd sections such as those dit dit parts. They seem to me like a showcase of the Beach Boys vocal acrobatics - riffs on the Heroes theme that would've been perfect B side material: nothing more, nothing less.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 06, 2013, 12:39:03 PM
I think if you accept the two sided Heroes theory it makes more sense of a lot of the odd sections such as those dit dit parts. They seem to me like a showcase of the Beach Boys vocal acrobatics - riffs on the Heroes theme that would've been perfect B side material: nothing more, nothing less.

Well, I don't fully accept that theory. Again, this just doesn't jive with him by early 1967 referring to sections as Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4. Part 2 does have some vocal acrobatics stuff like Gee but it also has the DYLW riff in it and the Cantina section. Part 3 has some of the "doo doo Heroes and Villains" parts but it certainly wouldn't be enough for a B side. Part 4 is the the dum dum whistle distortion section as it was called above. The way Brian was talking about these parts, to me, does not suggest that there was any of this A-side/B-side business going on at this point.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 06, 2013, 12:44:04 PM
If I understand andy correctly, IIGS probably does not have the distortion at the end, I take it as a butt cut edit before the distortion into butt cut edits of the next two sections. Yes? No? Anybody tried that as an approximation? Could a couple of or all versions of the IIGS instru track [sans Harv demo] be layered to simulate a version with fuller instrumentation? You know by someone not me, someone with the appropriate skills. Would that work?

I've wondered about the distortion too. Why record it with distortion if Brian was not intending to edit out of the explosion effect? But then it's unlikely he'd have IIGS end in the distortion, then have the dum dum whistle distortion section replicate the effect shortly afterwards within the song. It's a shame Andy can't remember whether the explosion effect was present at the end of the IIGS he heard. If there's no tape explosion in the version he heard, maybe Brian had decided to feature the effect later in the song at that point (i.e. in the dum dum whistle distortion section).

Nothing sounds as good coming out of that explosion effect as Barnyard imo. Maybe when he was recording it at the end of IIGS he planned to follow it immediately with the Barnyard fade as per Mark Linnett's edit on TSS. Then a while later he decided to place some sections in between IIGS and Barnard (e.g. My Children were raised, dum dum whistle distortion). Pure, groundless speculation but there you go!

I would love to hear this edit of IIGS + My chldren more than anything right now, but I fear the acetates may have been snapped up by a collector with no will to share the recordings. Let's hope that's not the case.


If he cut it off, maybe he just didn't like it when assembled or didn't think it lent itself to an edit the way he liked or it started to sound gimmicky to him. Who knows.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 06, 2013, 12:48:28 PM
I think if you accept the two sided Heroes theory it makes more sense of a lot of the odd sections such as those dit dit parts. They seem to me like a showcase of the Beach Boys vocal acrobatics - riffs on the Heroes theme that would've been perfect B side material: nothing more, nothing less.

Well, I don't fully accept that theory. Again, this just doesn't jive with him by early 1967 referring to sections as Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4. Part 2 does have some vocal acrobatics stuff like Gee but it also has the DYLW riff in it and the Cantina section. Part 3 has some of the "doo doo Heroes and Villains" parts but it certainly wouldn't be enough for a B side. Part 4 is the the dum dum whistle distortion section as it was called above. The way Brian was talking about these parts, to me, does not suggest that there was any of this A-side/B-side business going on at this point.



This has been discussed before and may seem like a cop out answer but Brian did structure songs as part 1, 2, 3 etc. as you point out. However in this instance as well as parts within songs, parts 1 & 2 also refer to the two sides in my opinion and this is where it gets confusing. What else would explain a label like 'Tag to Part 1'? Does anyone really believe that Heroes Intro was an intro to the A Side? Makes more sense that it was an intro to side B of a two sided single imo.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 06, 2013, 12:54:41 PM
I think if you accept the two sided Heroes theory it makes more sense of a lot of the odd sections such as those dit dit parts. They seem to me like a showcase of the Beach Boys vocal acrobatics - riffs on the Heroes theme that would've been perfect B side material: nothing more, nothing less.

Well, I don't fully accept that theory. Again, this just doesn't jive with him by early 1967 referring to sections as Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4. Part 2 does have some vocal acrobatics stuff like Gee but it also has the DYLW riff in it and the Cantina section. Part 3 has some of the "doo doo Heroes and Villains" parts but it certainly wouldn't be enough for a B side. Part 4 is the the dum dum whistle distortion section as it was called above. The way Brian was talking about these parts, to me, does not suggest that there was any of this A-side/B-side business going on at this point.



This has been discussed before and may seem like a cop out answer but Brian did structure songs as part 1, 2, 3 etc. as you point out. However in this instance as well as parts within songs, parts 1 & 2 also refer to the two sides in my opinion and this is where it gets confusing. What else would explain a label like 'Tag to Part 1'? Does anyone really believe that Heroes Intro was an intro to the A Side? Makes more sense that it was an intro to side B of a two sided single imo.

In that case what do Parts 3 and 4 refer to?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 06, 2013, 12:55:43 PM
I understand the confusion over "H&V" and "H&V II" and "part 1" and "part 2" and "side 2" and the other section labels in H&V but the key is the master numbers. H&V was its own master with its own master number and own parts 2 and 3 and bridges and intros and fades etc.. H&V II was its own different master with its own different master number and its own different parts and intro and fade and prelude etc..

Two different masters for two different sides of a single both numbering and labeling their internal parts with similar systems. The master numbers are the organizing thing.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 06, 2013, 12:58:08 PM
I understand the confusion over "H&V" and "H&V II" and "part 1" and "part 2" and "side 2" and the other section labels in H&V but the key is the master numbers. H&V was its own master with its own master number and own parts 2 and 3 and bridges and intros and fades etc.. H&V II was its own different master with its own different master number and its own different parts and intro and fade and prelude etc..

Two different masters for two different sides of a single both numbering and labeling their internal parts with similar systems. The master numbers are the organizing thing.

OK good. That makes more sense. In that case, then, what counts as H&V I and what counts as H&V II? Where can I find that out?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 06, 2013, 12:58:23 PM
I think if you accept the two sided Heroes theory it makes more sense of a lot of the odd sections such as those dit dit parts. They seem to me like a showcase of the Beach Boys vocal acrobatics - riffs on the Heroes theme that would've been perfect B side material: nothing more, nothing less.

Well, I don't fully accept that theory. Again, this just doesn't jive with him by early 1967 referring to sections as Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4. Part 2 does have some vocal acrobatics stuff like Gee but it also has the DYLW riff in it and the Cantina section. Part 3 has some of the "doo doo Heroes and Villains" parts but it certainly wouldn't be enough for a B side. Part 4 is the the dum dum whistle distortion section as it was called above. The way Brian was talking about these parts, to me, does not suggest that there was any of this A-side/B-side business going on at this point.



This has been discussed before and may seem like a cop out answer but Brian did structure songs as part 1, 2, 3 etc. as you point out. However in this instance as well as parts within songs, parts 1 & 2 also refer to the two sides in my opinion and this is where it gets confusing. What else would explain a label like 'Tag to Part 1'? Does anyone really believe that Heroes Intro was an intro to the A Side? Makes more sense that it was an intro to side B of a two sided single imo.

In that case what do Parts 3 and 4 refer to?

Well, parts 3 & 4 of the a side, or perhaps the b side! I'm just saying I think with Heroes & Villains there are times where 'part 1 and 'part 2' refer to the a and b sides of the song, and then there are times when they simply refer to parts within the song. I told you it was a cop out answer!  ;)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 06, 2013, 01:03:13 PM
I think if you accept the two sided Heroes theory it makes more sense of a lot of the odd sections such as those dit dit parts. They seem to me like a showcase of the Beach Boys vocal acrobatics - riffs on the Heroes theme that would've been perfect B side material: nothing more, nothing less.

Well, I don't fully accept that theory. Again, this just doesn't jive with him by early 1967 referring to sections as Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4. Part 2 does have some vocal acrobatics stuff like Gee but it also has the DYLW riff in it and the Cantina section. Part 3 has some of the "doo doo Heroes and Villains" parts but it certainly wouldn't be enough for a B side. Part 4 is the the dum dum whistle distortion section as it was called above. The way Brian was talking about these parts, to me, does not suggest that there was any of this A-side/B-side business going on at this point.



This has been discussed before and may seem like a cop out answer but Brian did structure songs as part 1, 2, 3 etc. as you point out. However in this instance as well as parts within songs, parts 1 & 2 also refer to the two sides in my opinion and this is where it gets confusing. What else would explain a label like 'Tag to Part 1'? Does anyone really believe that Heroes Intro was an intro to the A Side? Makes more sense that it was an intro to side B of a two sided single imo.

You're applying sense and logic to The Beach Boys, and worse, applying it to Smile. Along with the existence of a tape of the second movement of "Surf's Up", the "H&V" two-sided single theory is one of the bigger, and more persistent red herrings in BB history. There is no hard proof for either and precious little circumstantial evidence.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 06, 2013, 01:05:02 PM
I think if you accept the two sided Heroes theory it makes more sense of a lot of the odd sections such as those dit dit parts. They seem to me like a showcase of the Beach Boys vocal acrobatics - riffs on the Heroes theme that would've been perfect B side material: nothing more, nothing less.

Well, I don't fully accept that theory. Again, this just doesn't jive with him by early 1967 referring to sections as Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4. Part 2 does have some vocal acrobatics stuff like Gee but it also has the DYLW riff in it and the Cantina section. Part 3 has some of the "doo doo Heroes and Villains" parts but it certainly wouldn't be enough for a B side. Part 4 is the the dum dum whistle distortion section as it was called above. The way Brian was talking about these parts, to me, does not suggest that there was any of this A-side/B-side business going on at this point.



This has been discussed before and may seem like a cop out answer but Brian did structure songs as part 1, 2, 3 etc. as you point out. However in this instance as well as parts within songs, parts 1 & 2 also refer to the two sides in my opinion and this is where it gets confusing. What else would explain a label like 'Tag to Part 1'? Does anyone really believe that Heroes Intro was an intro to the A Side? Makes more sense that it was an intro to side B of a two sided single imo.

In that case what do Parts 3 and 4 refer to?

Well, parts 3 & 4 of the a side, or perhaps the b side! I'm just saying I think with Heroes & Villains there are times where 'part 1 and 'part 2' refer to the a and b sides of the song, and then there are times when they simply refer to parts within the song. I told you it was a cop out answer!  ;)

Fair enough. I'd like to hear what AGD might have to say about this H&V I and H&V II and the master numbers. That might help clear a lot of this up.

EDIT: OK, now that AGD has spoken, I am still curious what he has to say about Cam's point.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 06, 2013, 01:09:15 PM
Makes more sense that it was an intro to side B of a two sided single imo.

Why?

I'm not saying I disagree, but using the words "making sense" in reference to H&V just seems sorta wrong. Nothing makes sense.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 06, 2013, 01:09:40 PM
I understand the confusion over "H&V" and "H&V II" and "part 1" and "part 2" and "side 2" and the other section labels in H&V but the key is the master numbers. H&V was its own master with its own master number and own parts 2 and 3 and bridges and intros and fades etc.. H&V II was its own different master with its own different master number and its own different parts and intro and fade and prelude etc..

Two different masters for two different sides of a single both numbering and labeling their internal parts with similar systems. The master numbers are the organizing thing.

OK good. That makes more sense. In that case, then, what counts as H&V I and what counts as H&V II? Where can I find that out?

I don't remember the numbers but like in January H&V had shaken down to two separate master with two separate master number. One master is called simply H&V and the other master is called H&V Part/Side II. OK, looked them up. That which is recorded for the H&V master number #57020 would be edited into the H&V master for side 1. That which is recorded for the H&V Part/Side II master number 57045 would be edited into the H&V Part/Side II master for side 2.

Note: Besides the evidence of the two titles and two master numbers, the H&V Part II master #57045 was also noted as "side 2" on a tape, which very highly elevates the case for the 2 sided single imo, especially in light of two eyewitness who have stated H&V was or was at some point a two sided single. Chuck Britz and Michael Vosse as I remember.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 06, 2013, 01:21:57 PM
Makes more sense that it was an intro to side B of a two sided single imo.

Why?

I'm not saying I disagree, but using the words "making sense" in reference to H&V just seems sorta wrong. Nothing makes sense.

Fair enough - that's my hunch and I shouldn't promote it as anything else. Tag to Part 1 seems more suggestive of a two sided heroes though. Then there's the brian edit that sequences gee plus several dit dit sections. That has to be the most solid evidence for a two parted heroes right there. I find it hard to believe Brian would've planned those repetitive dit dit sections to have sat within the a-side single. That would've left little room for any of the other main sections. Didn't Chuck Britz also confirm the 2 sided theory?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 06, 2013, 01:31:22 PM
On the box as they are recording the “Part II” variations towards  the end there’s brief discussion of the next part, but then that part never comes. Why is that? Did they never record it? And if so…why? Why get so close to completion then quit? And that question comes up a lot when talking about Smile. The tape always ends just when there seems to be something important coming up (see also: instructions to players about talking between verses in Dada).

Why did he re-record the H&V fade when the re-record sounds just like the damn original (aside from Carl's scat)?



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on March 06, 2013, 01:36:20 PM

If these words were to appear at the end, are they saying that the entire wild west story was merely the fantasy of a simple farmer, who fell down in the pig pen and bumped his head and dreamed the song during 2 and a half minutes of unconciousness or something? Will he leave his hat on next time to cushion the blow?

I doubt this is what Brian and VDP were thinking, but I really like this theory. Clever.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mitchell on March 06, 2013, 01:37:30 PM
Interesting that the "harpsichord bit" that we have dates to the Smiley sessions... Was there an earlier version on a non-electric harpsichord? This would imply so... (forgiveness if I'm ignorant of certain Smile pieces)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 06, 2013, 01:38:49 PM
On the box as they are recording the “Part II” variations towards  the end there’s brief discussion of the next part, but then that part never comes. Why is that? Did they never record it? And if so…why? Why get so close to completion then quit? And that question comes up a lot when talking about Smile. The tape always ends just when there seems to be something important coming up (see also: instructions to players about talking between verses in Dada).

Why did he re-record the H&V fade when the re-record sounds just like the damn original (aside from Carl's scat)?



Maybe it was just a quick solution - need a fade to the b side. Just reconfigure the fade to the a side in a subtly different way. So A side has false barnyard fade and b side has the Carl scat version.

There is also that cool little section that sounds  like a cross between the slow bit from rhapsody in blue and western theme. I think it's one of the part 2 sections on TSS where Brian plays the part on piano and is followed by the boys harmonising. Anyway I wonder if this section fulfilled a similar function in that it was a side 2 mirror part to Western theme. I.e. a 'prelude to fade' for the b side.

Edit: actually from memory of recording dates I have a feeling that Western Theme most likely was planned as the prelude to the scat fade so scrub that last theory!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 06, 2013, 02:28:46 PM
I love that the acetates have reopened the H&V sequencing debate.

Its fun to imagine the song going a thousand different ways. :hat


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 06, 2013, 02:32:34 PM
Its fun to imagine the song going a thousand different ways

Not if your initials are B.W.  :)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 06, 2013, 02:44:02 PM
There are two people who would know for certain if "H&V" was ever going to be a double sided single. Have either of them ever said a word about that possibility ?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: FatherOfTheMan Sr101 on March 06, 2013, 02:46:03 PM
I'm pretty sure Brian did. I forget where.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 06, 2013, 03:12:20 PM

If these words were to appear at the end, are they saying that the entire wild west story was merely the fantasy of a simple farmer, who fell down in the pig pen and bumped his head and dreamed the song during 2 and a half minutes of unconciousness or something? Will he leave his hat on next time to cushion the blow?

I doubt this is what Brian and VDP were thinking, but I really like this theory. Clever.

Most people who fall down and pass out in a pigpen never get up again. Haven't you ever heard the saying "He died and hogs ate him"?

Pigs will eat anything, quite quickly too.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 06, 2013, 03:28:53 PM
If I understand andy correctly, IIGS probably does not have the distortion at the end, I take it as a butt cut edit before the distortion into butt cut edits of the next two sections. Yes? No? Anybody tried that as an approximation? Could a couple of or all versions of the IIGS instru track [sans Harv demo] be layered to simulate a version with fuller instrumentation? You know by someone not me, someone with the appropriate skills. Would that work?

This was my interpretation of his description of the transition from IIGS to the 'boys and girls' section (though I added the vocals to the harpsichord section): https://soundcloud.com/robert-borszich/im-in-decent-shape/s-334m0 (https://soundcloud.com/robert-borszich/im-in-decent-shape/s-334m0)

It's seems to work really well - though it's probably not even close to what Andy was talking about.

  ??? I think I see why my soundcloud files keeping getting deleted...dont use the real song titles / band names.

got it.  ;)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 06, 2013, 03:31:15 PM

If these words were to appear at the end, are they saying that the entire wild west story was merely the fantasy of a simple farmer, who fell down in the pig pen and bumped his head and dreamed the song during 2 and a half minutes of unconciousness or something? Will he leave his hat on next time to cushion the blow?

I doubt this is what Brian and VDP were thinking, but I really like this theory. Clever.

Most people who fall down and pass out in a pigpen never get up again. Haven't you ever heard the saying "He died and hogs ate him"?

Pigs will eat anything, quite quickly too.

Sure , but right after he bumped his head, the tin man and the scarecrow picked him up and carried him to bed, so he'd wake up healthy wealthy and wise.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: KittyKat on March 06, 2013, 03:32:50 PM
Are there any message boards that discuss what Billy Joel really intended with "We Didn't Start the Fire," or how many parts there really are to "Uptown Girl"?



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 06, 2013, 03:41:28 PM

If these words were to appear at the end, are they saying that the entire wild west story was merely the fantasy of a simple farmer, who fell down in the pig pen and bumped his head and dreamed the song during 2 and a half minutes of unconciousness or something? Will he leave his hat on next time to cushion the blow?

I doubt this is what Brian and VDP were thinking, but I really like this theory. Clever.

Most people who fall down and pass out in a pigpen never get up again. Haven't you ever heard the saying "He died and hogs ate him"?

Pigs will eat anything, quite quickly too.

Sure , but right after he bumped his head, the tin man and the scarecrow picked him up and carried him to bed, so he'd wake up healthy wealthy and wise.

Ah yes the Wizard of Oz scene of Dorothy falling in the pigpen - you see how quick he got her out of there!

Toto would have been one bite for a big sow.  :lol


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: ash on March 06, 2013, 03:41:37 PM
There are two people who would know for certain if "H&V" was ever going to be a double sided single. Have either of them ever said a word about that possibility ?
Sometimes it appears that trying to get a straight answer about Smile out of those two is like trying to find out who killed the Kennedys (no it wasn't you and me) or recutting The Magnificent Ambersons back to it's original state. I love Van Dyke's  work with  and without Brian but not even a Babel fish will work  let alone google translate.
I say call in Derren Brown and sit Brian and Van down at a piano with 10 questions and roll tape.

That aside i do have a double sided single of Like A Rolling Stone by Bob Dylan on CBS which is labelled part 1 and part 2. Think it's a uk or us demo/promo given out to journalists, radio stations and the like. Mind you, doesn't mean Like a Rolling Stone was a 2 sided single. I think CBS thought the length of the record would freak radio stations out - like editing the solo out of House Of The Rising Sun. I haven't heard it for ages but it just fades out after 2 or 3 verses. Weird.


I am not convinced Heroes would have been 2 sided either but there appear to have been at least 6 or 7 different variations ranging from 2.45 to between 6 and 7 minutes possibly closer to 6 minutes (erm.. or 5 ).  The only certainty is verse 1 and 2 and that BW couldn't complete it to his or our satisfaction. The frequently mentioned 5 or 6 (or 7 ? aaarrgghhh) minute version and a complete Great Shape version are what i always wanted to hear. I have suspected for many years (as others have here) that the Great Shape version was the same as Cantina with those 2 sections swapped and Barnyard as the fade ...or at least close to that.
BTW didn't Alan say they had a slightly longer version of the released 45 before the box set came out ? yikes




Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Al Jardine: Pick Up Artist on March 06, 2013, 04:17:04 PM
I am a HUGE advocate for the two-sided single theory, basically 1:1 like we got on the 2CD TSS. And I also think that the album mix would be similar to what we got on TSS. The only thing I feel that doesn't stand up to that is the H&V chorus and Bicycle Rider in DYLW, but I definitely do not think the exploding cantina fits as a final version for an album.

I actually had a long, long thought out thing I was going to write but it flew out of my brain. The separate Barnshine and H&V fades have also always bothered me, but I guess it makes sense if Barnshine goes after Sunshine and H&V fade on the single. But that doesn't hold up, as the exploding cantina clearly uses the Barnshine fade. I also don't like how sides 1&2 both use the same fade (albeit different).

On topic with the thread I think that IIGS was just an early cantina and probably followed Worms like on TSS. In fact, I feel like the first bit of TSS is quite accurate except for Barnyard. I feel like it was probably trashed, not even combined with IIGS which would explain its absence from the back cover.

Dammit Brian, why the f*** did you make this sh*t so confusing. And dammit SOT compilers, why was the Can't Wait Too Long fade listed as a an H&V thing? Was it really?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 06, 2013, 05:27:58 PM
On the box as they are recording the “Part II” variations towards  the end there’s brief discussion of the next part, but then that part never comes. Why is that? Did they never record it? And if so…why? Why get so close to completion then quit? And that question comes up a lot when talking about Smile. The tape always ends just when there seems to be something important coming up (see also: instructions to players about talking between verses in Dada).

Yes! Excellent point. It's another thing that makes the whole experience frustrating. I'm not sure what part you are talking about in regards to H&V though. Is it that track on Sessions titled "Heroes and Villains Part 2" where he plays this brief Gershwin-esque piano section and then decides that he's going to have the guys sing it acapella and they rehearse it for a bit and are really happy with it and then nothing? If that is the part you are referring to, I find it strange that it was never recorded either since it was supposed to be the closer for Gee.

Quote
Why did he re-record the H&V fade when the re-record sounds just like the damn original (aside from Carl's scat)?

I don't know but I do like that track - especially when Brian chews out Carl.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 06, 2013, 05:28:26 PM
I think the 2 side H&V single's biggest problem is so many years of thinking about it as single track made in two parts. And then the confusion came with trying to explain a single track having so many part 2s and fades etc.. Jmo. Follow the master numbers and all will become clear. Clearer. The evidence for a 2 sided single has been there all the time. Also as I've pointed out before, all of the identified tracks recorded for the H&V Part II master #57045  for "side 2" are revised quotes of non-H&V album tracks from the rest of the album tracks. Think about it. Interesting innit.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 06, 2013, 05:30:09 PM
Also, I do think we might be overestimating Brian and Van Dyke in their capacity to remember what their plans were for Smile in 1966/67.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 06, 2013, 05:44:49 PM
Also as I've pointed out before, all of the identified tracks recorded for the H&V Part II master #57045  for "side 2" are revised quotes of non-H&V album tracks from the rest of the album tracks. Think about it. Interesting innit.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 06, 2013, 06:17:04 PM
They reference SMiLE album tracks: DYLW, TE, YAMS......uh......is that it for so far identified H&V Part II master #57045 tracks?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 06, 2013, 08:23:16 PM


Why did he re-record the H&V fade when the re-record sounds just like the damn original (aside from Carl's scat)?



Maybe it was just a quick solution - need a fade to the b side. Just reconfigure the fade to the a side in a subtly different way. So A side has false barnyard fade and b side has the Carl scat version.


What about the verse remake?

Why is he starting over?

And then why does he go back and use the original verse for the finished single?

On the track "Barbershop Session" - the first attempt included used the razzle dazzle tape explosion effect....is this yet another attempt of squeezing the effect into the song somewhere?

Where's the version of the piano "tag to part one" with the handclap overdubs?

Pickup to third verse....where does it go?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Ron on March 06, 2013, 09:59:45 PM
I love that the acetates have reopened the H&V sequencing debate.

Its fun to imagine the song going a thousand different ways. :hat

I'm not as deep into it as most fans are, so I can kind of give an outside perspective.  I've screwed around and recorded a few songs before, and then years later went back and looked at the tracks.  What I found was.... I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT THE HELL I WAS DOING.

So things like us finding tapes with weird labels, and 'part 1' and 'part II' but that doesn't make sense, and why the hell did this fade? Etc., in my opinion, is just a byproduct of the recording process.  Most of it obviously wasn't concrete anyways, all of the great mysteries we've tried to figure out about smile were never designed as great mysteries, they were designed as minor oversights or discrepancies, or they wrote something down wrong, or jotted down a small note, or misspelled something.  Years later we can't make any sense of it and think it's something that has an answer, when it doesn't. 


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Dunderhead on March 07, 2013, 12:36:57 AM
The following sessions use master number 57045:

1. "Part Two"/Single Chorus; February 27th
2. "Fade" rerecord with Carl scatting; February 28th
3. "Verse" remake; March 1st
4. "Organ Waltz"/"Intro"; March 1st
5. "Part II Insert"; March 2nd

Brian assembled the Cantina version on February 10th and still didn't appear to be satisfied with the song. He recorded the "Prelude To Fade" on February 15th and the "Part 2/3/4"s on February 20th/21st using master #57020. Between those dates and February 27th he held one or two "edit" sessions to perhaps tweak the Cantina version a little bit using the newly recorded material.

The fact that after this, over a period of four consecutive days Brian rerecorded the verse and fade using Master #57045, suggests he was trying to make a fresh start on the song and was scrapping everything else he had done to rerecord it entirely from scratch. These were the last Heroes sessions Brian held until the Smiley version sessions in June, he never held any vocal or edit sessions afterwards to complete the #57045 version of the song, and didn't return to the studio again to work on Smile material until April 4th.

I really don't get the impression the new master number meant that Brian was seriously at work on a two-sided version of the song. "Part II" seems only to refer to the bicycle rider section which was to be used as the chorus of the new version.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: ash on March 07, 2013, 01:39:18 AM
I don't have my notes so excuse me if i mess up.
In some ways i think the idea of 57045 could well be true but on the other hand wasn't Heroes assigned several master numbers over the course of it's life.
may 66 no. 55999
oct and dec no. 56727
great shape has its own master no. 56738
dec 19 no.57020 - this session with violinists is missing but could be key to understanding the next stage of transitions imo. (how to get to bag of tricks etc.part 3 etc.)
jan no. 57045
jan experiment no. 57074
and so on
let's not forget that other songs such as Cabin Essence had different master numbers assigned to the different sections but ended up in the same song.
Anyway , i do believe that when BW went into the studio he had a definite plan,party reels aside. Does anyone really think he'd go into Columbia and noodle around for 4 hours and then decide lets take that bit from Worms. Ok this is Heroes and Villains part 2. No i think he did the writing and noodling at home and came in to record what he'd already worked out. Maybe it changed during the recording process. Then he got home, got wasted and decided he didn't like it and sat down at the piano to begin again. The only accurate description i have heard by Brian is that he went on a 6 month bummer over Heroes - that's october to march 67 when he just couldn't deal with it anymore and after starting all over again (verse re-record holy cow) he just put it to one side.
That verse re-record is desperate. Brian sounds in charge and coherent but after all those months to go back and redo the only piece he'd been happy with all that time (in B flat to spin up to C sharp!!!) well that freaks me out. It's not like he needed it to end differently for the transition to the next piece of music.
Finally in the let's not forget department - master numbers could easily have been assigned in error to the wrong piece of music.
My brain hurts.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 07, 2013, 06:08:16 AM
It's starting to become more and more clear why Brian couldn't complete smile. Everything was all over the place  :lol


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 07, 2013, 06:18:39 AM
Hold on a second. Cam was giving me the impression that the Master #57045 was given a title: "Heroes and Villains Part II." Is this not true? And if it is not, and it is true that the track had several master numbers and that pieces of even an obviously complete track like Cabinessence had its own sections with their own master numbers, then I think this really puts the kibosh on the whole Side A/Side B theory. I should have trusted my gut instinct from listening to the sessions.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 07, 2013, 07:22:36 AM
This post from Alan Boyd in a previous thread is very informative:

Quote
For what it's worth, there is one tape box with a little note on it that says "Heroes and Villains Side Two."  That would be the rendition of the theme described on that box as "HEROES BRIDGE WITH SPOOKY LOW END STRINGS AND PERCUSSION."  This turned out to be the variation on the theme that was later used as the backing track for the chorus of the single version (but with the "spooky low end strings" mixed out in favor of droning low notes from what I can only assume is Brian's Baldwin organ).  I can't say for sure, however, when that "Side Two" note was written on the box, so....

As far as "Heroes and Villains" PART Two is concerned, the tape box containing the "Bicycle Rider" theme with Brian's lead vocal, is labeled "HEROES PART TWO."  Judging from some fragmentary mix outtakes for the song's opening verses - which seem to go into a snippet of that harpsichord-based "Bicycle Rider" theme - I'm guessing that "Part Two" in that case refers to sections within an alternate complete edit of the song, rather than an actual separate side two.  Perhaps an early version of the song may have had that "Bicycle Rider" section as a chorus in the same way the single version had a variation of that theme as its chorus.  Perhaps not...  Too bad the multitrack master from which that mix derived is missing.

The various vocal treatments that have long been regarded as the foundation for a Side Two of HEROES.... well.... they also have a "PART TWO" note on the tape box, as well as audio slates on the tape itself.  But that may just be referring to the order in which they were recording sections that day (2/20/67).  On the other hand, there doesn't appear to be a PART ONE from that particular session.  In this case, "Part Two" refers to the "Gee" vocal leading into a tack piano/ vocal variation ("Ahh ooom diddy wadda, heroes and villains")  "Part Three" on this tape is the next variation of the vocal thing ("heroes, the heroes, the heroes and a villains") leading into a suspenseful piano chord that leads to the growling Swedish Frog" stuff.... then another variation, "Part Four" or "Version Four" refers to the acapella "Dit Dit Dit Heroes and Villains" with the low doom-doom-doom vocals on the bottom....   The various sections appear on the 8 track tape in the same order as they were later presented on CD with the slates and false starts cleaned up and taken out.

*whew*

I would tend to be careful about assuming how sections like this were intended to be put together, especially having found an original edited track mix for CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN that's assembled very differently than the bootlegs had been for so many years.  The old versions had simply put the sections together in the same order as found on the original multitrack session tape.

FYI - That piece they call "Barnshine" or "False Barnyard" was originally recorded as part two of SUNSHINE, and there is a mono rough mix in the vaults with that section coming up right after the OLD MASTER PAINTER/SUNSHINE mixdown with Dennis' lead.  It has that bit of a SUNSHINE vocal from Brian (not Mike) buried way deep in there.  This appears to be a rough mix made in 1968 at Wally Heider while they were working out what was going to be on "Stack O Tracks."  Too bad the multitrack master from which that mix derived is missing.

That coda was not added to the alternate version of that first appeared on the SMILEY SMILE/WILD HONEY two-fer.  That mix was complete in a tape box labeled "Heros [sic] and Villains as of 2/10/67 master" Protection Copy.  I can't be certain that is a copy of the missing master mix dated 1/31/67, or a protection copy of another assembly/mixdown made after that.  The notes are not definitive.

And yes, that "Barnshine" bit was re-recorded on 2/28 with plucked strings and Carl attempting a vocal part as they were tracking it.  It was labeled here as HEROES AND VILLAINS FADE OUT.

So.... Ummm.  Hmmm.

Alan


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 07, 2013, 07:28:57 AM
It is. Brian did occasionally start a new master for an old title. Beginning in December Brian had settled down to master #57020 for the title H&V. In January he began a concurrent master #57045 for the title H&V Part II which was noted as "Side 2".

I forgot about c-man's new info about "verse" recording for H&V Part II master #57045. I'll have to bone up on the new info. However that still leaves the "Side 2" master as H&V Part II master #57045 and is a still another reworked reference of a SMiLE album track which presumably would be H&V master #57020. There is no reference to separate mastered title of H&V Part II [or any second title for H&V] on the existing album track info so H&V Part II master #57045 must have been for "side 2" of the single.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 07, 2013, 02:48:50 PM
A lot of the studio technicals are over my head but I have also wondered if H&V could have been a two-part song.

One of the things that impressed me when I first started listening to TSS is the "threads" that
weave in and out of different "songs" -- this modular quality of Brian's music is one of the most intriguing aspects of SMiLE.

Anyway you look/ listen to the all the different parts, the fact is the this has to be one of the most brilliant musical
endeavors in history.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Myk Luhv on March 07, 2013, 05:21:36 PM
Brian Wilson: The Most Famous Hegelian


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Micha on March 07, 2013, 06:17:17 PM
Why did he re-record the H&V fade when the re-record sounds just like the damn original (aside from Carl's scat)?



Maybe it was just a quick solution - need a fade to the b side. Just reconfigure the fade to the a side in a subtly different way. So A side has false barnyard fade and b side has the Carl scat version.

More than unlikely IMHO. At the same time Brian rerecorded the fade, he also rerecorded the verses. That would rather fit the story about Brian playing the song to a stranger from the street and then starting from scratch. Obviously, he used neither the new verses nor the new fade.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: monicker on March 07, 2013, 06:18:11 PM
He recorded the "Prelude To Fade" on February 15th and the "Part 2/3/4"s on February 20th/21st using master #57020. Between those dates and February 27th he held one or two "edit" sessions to perhaps tweak the Cantina version a little bit using the newly recorded material.

Oh, if only an edit turned up somewhere of the Cantina version that incorporates Prelude to Fade and these "Part/Side 2" sections from Feb. 20th and 21st. I would love to hear such a thing.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Micha on March 07, 2013, 06:25:50 PM
Pickup to third verse....where does it go?

Before the third verse "My children were raised..." and after whatever, maybe Barnyard, maybe something else.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 07, 2013, 06:44:13 PM
Pickup to third verse....where does it go?

Before the third verse "My children were raised..." and after whatever, maybe Barnyard, maybe something else.

Probably before "My children were raised." In the Smile Sessions, in chronological order, the H&V piece that is recorded following "Pickup to the 3rd verse" is the "My children were raised" section.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Dunderhead on March 07, 2013, 09:23:36 PM
Brian Wilson: The Most Famous Hegelian Schlegelian


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Dunderhead on March 07, 2013, 10:05:18 PM
Why did he re-record the H&V fade when the re-record sounds just like the damn original (aside from Carl's scat)?



Maybe it was just a quick solution - need a fade to the b side. Just reconfigure the fade to the a side in a subtly different way. So A side has false barnyard fade and b side has the Carl scat version.

More than unlikely IMHO. At the same time Brian rerecorded the fade, he also rerecorded the verses. That would rather fit the story about Brian playing the song to a stranger from the street and then starting from scratch. Obviously, he used neither the new verses nor the new fade.

I don't think I've heard this story, what's it's source? It seems to fit with the chronology pretty well. Maybe on February 24th/25th/26th Brian auditioned the cantina edit or a modified version of it incorporating "Prelude To Fade" for someone and was so disappointed with their reaction that he resolved to rerecord the entire song from scratch then and there beginning on the 27th.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Myk Luhv on March 07, 2013, 10:42:28 PM
Why Schlegel?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: ash on March 08, 2013, 02:07:52 AM
I wonder whether Brian junked the Cantina section quite soon after recording it. Marilyn said she only heard it once or something like that . The story of a stranger coming in and saying it wasn't as good as Good Vibrations leading to BW wiping the master there and then (according to legend) could explain why we are left with only the protection copy ??  Perhaps then he started up on all the part 2's (gee etc.) as a replacement. They would go well after the accapella verse which is where the earlier part 2 (cantina) was.
Master numbers aside, Brian's problem appears to have been where to go from the verses. Just how many part 2's can a song have unless of course there was a seperate Heroes and Villains Part 2. Was he so desperate to finish the all-important single that he ended up lifting parts from other songs to try and get the song to work ? Of course by doing so he effectively trashed a number of other songs - Worms,Old Master Painter,Vegatables (which is very similar to Heroes in many ways),Cabinessence etc. He worked on Heroes pretty much exclusively Jan/Feb 1967. Should've spent a couple of days getting the boys to do the lead vocals on Worms,Cabin,Surfs Up,Wonderful,Holidays, Child Is Father Of The Man etc. Ah the benefit of hindsight.
Often it's easy to speculate (in an informed fashion) where some pieces go by the keys or comments on session tapes but there are a few where perhaps missing sections are involved which means that even informed speculation is impossible. That part 3 from December for example. Perhaps we need the december 19th session to be able to fit that in. The chimes intro  doesn't seem to lead to anything and is in E major if i remember which is a slightly "off" transition to make in this context at least. Certainly doesn't move smoothly into the verse even with a brief pause.
Soul Made Beautiful/Mission Pak has also been problematic to me. It's some kind of link piece but from where to where? Is it in 2/4 or 6/4 ?  Sounds a bit like a c*ck a doodle doo / early rise kind of thing.
If only these acetates had turned up one finished but junked Heroes we might have some answers.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Dunderhead on March 08, 2013, 04:29:56 AM
Up until December 19th I imagine Brian at least thought he had a good handle on the song. It seems logical to assume that it was a fade sequence which was being recorded on that date given that's ostensibly the only thing that hadn't been recorded yet. It was on December 27th and December 28th, when he spent a total of 12 hours alone in the studio likely trying to edit what he had into something usable that I imagine he first started to realize he had gotten in over his head.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 08, 2013, 06:19:29 AM
I"ve misplaced it, but can somebody tell me....didn't Vosse mention a 2-sided single in the Fusion interview or am I remembering wrong?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 08, 2013, 07:13:32 AM
I"ve misplaced it, but can somebody tell me....didn't Vosse mention a 2-sided single in the Fusion interview or am I remembering wrong?

Yeah he desribes it as follows:

"The best version I heard, which was never completed, was an A side B side version lasting about six minutes. It was a beautifully structured work and Van Dyke was still very involved."


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 08, 2013, 08:59:04 AM
Up until December 19th I imagine Brian at least thought he had a good handle on the song. It seems logical to assume that it was a fade sequence which was being recorded on that date given that's ostensibly the only thing that hadn't been recorded yet. It was on December 27th and December 28th, when he spent a total of 12 hours alone in the studio likely trying to edit what he had into something usable that I imagine he first started to realize he had gotten in over his head.

The only piece of recorded evidence which would dispute this exists as the "Cantina" mix of Heroes, which Chuck Britz had mixed down and by all "audio evidence" was sounding like the next single.

This was the version that caused such a stir when it was finally "officially" released first on the Smiley two-fer, then on the '93 box set. And it is still my favorite of all the "Heroes"

Obviously Brian had second thoughts, and decided against releasing that particular final mix (as he had done with Good Vibrations, rejecting several versions), but the existence of that master proves he had something ready to go in early '67 that I feel is better than *any* of his subsequent versions...the energy, the drive, the cool sonic ear candy he put on that version, it could have been a great single.

And it was mixed as a single, not as a test mix or test edit or anything of the sort that we're speculating on around whatever test edit(s) the acetate stash may reveal.

The "Cantina" version as mixed down proves he did have something useable and just a step or two away from release in early '67.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bicyclerider on March 08, 2013, 09:49:41 AM
And chuck Britz also mentioned a 2 sided single for Heroes in addition to Vosse.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 08, 2013, 09:55:32 AM
Could Mark or whomever give us a Part 2 with the tight edits like what we hear glimpses of on things like on the "early version outtake" thing? They have a reel with the parts in order, yes? But am I to understand the versions with the tight edits ("CLAP CLAP dit dit dit...", you know what I'm saying) are missing? Can they be recreated in some manner?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 08, 2013, 10:02:00 AM
And chuck Britz also mentioned a 2 sided single for Heroes in addition to Vosse.

Exactly, and as far as those people closest to Brian during the whole process, I would think the words of a man who was mixing this stuff and the man who was acting as Brian's de facto assistant besides being a friend who was a regular presence in and out of the studio would weigh more heavily than even something, say, Al Jardine would recall because those guys were actually there more than Al, or Bruce, or whoever.

And add that to what I said earlier about the Britz "Cantina" mix, there were definite plans on the table at least for a time. You wouldn't think Britz or Vosse (his memory only a year or two removed from actual events) would remember something as specific as a 2-sided single if it were not prominently being mentioned at that time.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 08, 2013, 10:03:33 AM
And as I remember Chuck said they had a finished version of a two sided H&V single [is that right?] that was subsequently dissected for construction of the released version of H&V and he would presumably know as he would be closer to that project than Vosse.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, a two sided H&V single would require...[dramatic pause]...two separate H&V masters. One for side one, as in H&V master #57020, and one for "side 2", as in H&V Part II master #57045. [drops mic and out]

Anticlaimatic edit: Ignore my repetition of points posted whilst I was composing.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 08, 2013, 10:09:51 AM
And as I remember Chuck said they had a finished version of a two sided H&V single [is that right?] that was subsequently dissected for construction of the released version of H&V and he would presumably know as he would be closer to that project than Vosse.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, a two sided H&V single would require...[dramatic pause]...two separate H&V masters. One for side one, as in H&V master #57020, and one for "side 2", as in H&V Part II master #57045. [drops mic and out]

Anticlaimatic edit: Ignore my repetition of points posted whilst I was composing.

I agree. As far as masters and numbers assigned, I would think they would be assigned two separate numbers as you point out, for when they start cutting the actual record(s) on the lathe or whatever. Was this the case with other famous 2-sided singles like "Fingertips" by Stevie Wonder or "What I'd Say" by Ray Charles? On those they faded out then faded back in on the flip side, I'm curious if both A and B sides got a different number since it was continuing the same track.

But yeah, for mastering and cutting purposes I'd think you'd need two separate numbers anyway. But I'm definitely not certain of that.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 08, 2013, 10:28:10 AM
I don't know on other 2 sided singles, maybe a label call? Or would it be the recording studio that would make that call? Producer maybe?

My observation is the two sided single was not an attempt to make a continuous or carry through single really . To me it seems to show itself as a bifurcated single. The side one is the single for airplay and the Part II side 2 gives all of the indications to be a sort of album trailer or altered sampler or comp. Like a synopsis of the album or something. Part II so far as is known [still haven't boned up on c-man research] is a master of sections of the album tracks for SMiLE. Not quotes from the album tracks, but rerecorded and slightly different versions of sections from the album tracks ie.: DYLW chorus , H&V verse, The Elements as intro, YAS fade. What about the keys of the bits recorded for H&V master #57020 versus keys of bits rerecorded for H&V Part II master #57045? Do those tell any story?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 08, 2013, 10:55:28 AM
I don't know on other 2 sided singles, maybe a label call? Or would it be the recording studio that would make that call? Producer maybe?

My observation is the two sided single was not an attempt to make a continuous or carry through single really . To me it seems to show itself as a bifurcated single. The side one is the single for airplay and the Part II side 2 gives all of the indications to be a sort of album trailer or altered sampler or comp. Part II so far as is known [still haven't boned up on c-man research] is a master of sections of the album tracks for SMiLE. Not quotes from the album tracks, but rerecorded and slightly different versions of sections from the album tracks ie.: DYLW chorus , H&V verse, The Elements as intro, YAS fade. What about the keys of the bits recorded for H&V master #57020 versus keys of bits rerecorded for H&V Part II master #57045? Do those tell any story?


I think by time of the H&V 2-sided single all them other Smile tracks were discarded and already up for grabs. H&V is a black hole sucking everything else into it. I don't believe in an album trailer because by that point there was no album to...trail....


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 08, 2013, 11:01:32 AM
Now that I think about this collection of bits from the album collected as H&V Part II master #57045 for side 2 [B?] of the H&V single it might make more sense than I realized in light of Brian's quote about the B side of the H&V single in early February. As I remember he was going back and forth on giving too much away about the album and just doing him and a piano instead. Wouldn't giving too much away imply there was significant amount of material from the album involved? Would he say that if it was only a song from the album? Or wouldn't he be not concerned about giving away anything if the B side was all material that was not from the album?

Does that make sense? Did I remember the quote right?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 08, 2013, 11:03:57 AM
I don't know on other 2 sided singles, maybe a label call? Or would it be the recording studio that would make that call? Producer maybe?

My observation is the two sided single was not an attempt to make a continuous or carry through single really . To me it seems to show itself as a bifurcated single. The side one is the single for airplay and the Part II side 2 gives all of the indications to be a sort of album trailer or altered sampler or comp. Part II so far as is known [still haven't boned up on c-man research] is a master of sections of the album tracks for SMiLE. Not quotes from the album tracks, but rerecorded and slightly different versions of sections from the album tracks ie.: DYLW chorus , H&V verse, The Elements as intro, YAS fade. What about the keys of the bits recorded for H&V master #57020 versus keys of bits rerecorded for H&V Part II master #57045? Do those tell any story?


I think by time of the H&V 2-sided single all them other Smile tracks were discarded and already up for grabs. H&V is a black hole sucking everything else into it. I don't believe in an album trailer because by that point there was no album to...trail....

Doubtful. Unless you can pin down a date or even a month when the 2-sided single idea was active, I don't think it's possible to say all the other tracks were "discarded" in any definite way until at least May '67, into June.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 08, 2013, 11:10:55 AM
I don't know on other 2 sided singles, maybe a label call? Or would it be the recording studio that would make that call? Producer maybe?

My observation is the two sided single was not an attempt to make a continuous or carry through single really . To me it seems to show itself as a bifurcated single. The side one is the single for airplay and the Part II side 2 gives all of the indications to be a sort of album trailer or altered sampler or comp. Part II so far as is known [still haven't boned up on c-man research] is a master of sections of the album tracks for SMiLE. Not quotes from the album tracks, but rerecorded and slightly different versions of sections from the album tracks ie.: DYLW chorus , H&V verse, The Elements as intro, YAS fade. What about the keys of the bits recorded for H&V master #57020 versus keys of bits rerecorded for H&V Part II master #57045? Do those tell any story?

I think by time of the H&V 2-sided single all them other Smile tracks were discarded and already up for grabs. H&V is a black hole sucking everything else into it. I don't believe in an album trailer because by that point there was no album to...trail....

The thing is they are not discarded or borrowed tracks recorded for the album, they are new recordings and different recordings recorded for the H&V Part II master # 57045. So he isn't taking apart the album for H&V Part II master #57045 instead he has created new and different recordings that reference the album tracks in ways different from the album tracks.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 08, 2013, 11:29:26 AM
I don't know on other 2 sided singles, maybe a label call? Or would it be the recording studio that would make that call? Producer maybe?

My observation is the two sided single was not an attempt to make a continuous or carry through single really . To me it seems to show itself as a bifurcated single. The side one is the single for airplay and the Part II side 2 gives all of the indications to be a sort of album trailer or altered sampler or comp. Part II so far as is known [still haven't boned up on c-man research] is a master of sections of the album tracks for SMiLE. Not quotes from the album tracks, but rerecorded and slightly different versions of sections from the album tracks ie.: DYLW chorus , H&V verse, The Elements as intro, YAS fade. What about the keys of the bits recorded for H&V master #57020 versus keys of bits rerecorded for H&V Part II master #57045? Do those tell any story?

I think by time of the H&V 2-sided single all them other Smile tracks were discarded and already up for grabs. H&V is a black hole sucking everything else into it. I don't believe in an album trailer because by that point there was no album to...trail....

Doubtful. Unless you can pin down a date or even a month when the 2-sided single idea was active, I don't think it's possible to say all the other tracks were "discarded" in any definite way until at least May '67, into June.

Whoops.

The two concurrent masters for H&V period would be January 5 though March 2, well before the "official" announcement of cancellation and even before the SMiLE album covers were completed.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 08, 2013, 11:32:39 AM
I don't know on other 2 sided singles, maybe a label call? Or would it be the recording studio that would make that call? Producer maybe?

My observation is the two sided single was not an attempt to make a continuous or carry through single really . To me it seems to show itself as a bifurcated single. The side one is the single for airplay and the Part II side 2 gives all of the indications to be a sort of album trailer or altered sampler or comp. Part II so far as is known [still haven't boned up on c-man research] is a master of sections of the album tracks for SMiLE. Not quotes from the album tracks, but rerecorded and slightly different versions of sections from the album tracks ie.: DYLW chorus , H&V verse, The Elements as intro, YAS fade. What about the keys of the bits recorded for H&V master #57020 versus keys of bits rerecorded for H&V Part II master #57045? Do those tell any story?


I think by time of the H&V 2-sided single all them other Smile tracks were discarded and already up for grabs. H&V is a black hole sucking everything else into it. I don't believe in an album trailer because by that point there was no album to...trail....

Doubtful. Unless you can pin down a date or even a month when the 2-sided single idea was active, I don't think it's possible to say all the other tracks were "discarded" in any definite way until at least May '67, into June.

He is re-recording them to replace them, not to make some grand, inconnected piece of work.

My method of thinking is that once "the single" became the top priority everything that was recorded previously was up for grabs. Brian was desperate to make "H&V" a worthy follow up to "Good Vibrations" (especially now that the song was a massive hit) and thus put all his eggs in one basket, dismantling several other potential songs in the process.

The Feb. cantina mix of H&V is already a composite of things stolen from several other Smile songs.

First he took the fade from "Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine" and made it the H&V fade.

Then there was the idea of a "tape explosion", first used for the "Great Shape" segment (which, in and of itself, was originally part of H&V, though according to the album jacket it was gonna get a life of it's own). The effect was taken and reused in H&V. That doesn't necessarily mean that he wouldn't have used the effect twice on one album, but it's unlikely.

Then Brian found his chorus by lifting the "Bicycle Rider" theme from "Worms".

The whole Smile "suite" idea is partly built on the idea of repetitive musical motives. But this "ain't necessarily so" (reference to his bland Gershwin album...get it?!?). Anything that he took from another song and used in H&V left the original song sort of dead in the water.

This is why Smiley Smile contains the specific Smile songs that it does. They are the ones that hadn't been eaten by H&V during the creative process. (Aside from Surf's Up and Cabin Essence, of course).

The Hawaiian chant of Worms became "Whistle In", "Fire" became "Fall Breaks...", the "tape explosion" became a burst of organ in "Wind Chime",  "Child is Father of the Man" ends up as a small portion of "Little Bird", and even the joke of having someone saying something between verses ("You're Under Arrest!"), is reconditioned and reused elsewhere ("Good") .

There was nothing precious and untouchable about the original Smile material. As soon as he got back to the studio after the holiday break it's clear something has changed in the agenda. It was a time of dismantling and starting again. Brian wasn't finished sculpting. Smiley Smile is the finished sculpture, whether you like it or not.

This is why it's not really possible to cobble together a legitimate Smile dream sequence utilizing a wild and zany "Heroes and Villains"; because it never co-existed with the other songs. It was born from them. And that, Doc Brown, is why the version on this acetate is important.





Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Catbirdman on March 08, 2013, 12:13:05 PM
Anything that he took from another song and used in H&V left the original song sort of dead in the water.

I don't think you can really say that definitively. The fact that he used the major key version of the "bicycle rider" piece as an insert in the Smiley Smile version of Wonderful shows that Brian didn't necessarily rule out the idea of reusing the same musical bits within the same album.

Much of what is posited on these message boards nearly 50 years after the fact is loads of fun and yeah, you can get a little ways down the path toward reasonable speculation, but anyone who has been involved in a creative project realizes that it goes all over the place. If I were to watch people analyzing the contents of an old hard drive of mine from 10 years ago (let alone 50!), trying to make heads or tails of what an album was meant to be based on file names and key changes and the like, I'd probably sit back and laugh wildly over the whole spectacle.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 08, 2013, 02:56:52 PM
Then there was the idea of a "tape explosion", first used for the "Great Shape" segment (which, in and of itself, was originally part of H&V,

Having owned a couple of tape echo machines (Echoplex) I can explain how the "explosion" is done.

It is tape echo regenerative feedback. The units have control to adjust how many times the echo signal is repeated
and when you crank that knob up it causes a feedback loop. The sound of the original signal gets transformed into
a swelling cacophony of sound as it plays back over its self rapidly. Digital delay will do this too, but the tape delay
just has a different quality to it. Great effect for its time ranking up there with tape-phase shift.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 08, 2013, 03:12:17 PM
The time has come. The time has come for Brian Wilson to sit down (literally) for an extended period of time (hours/days/weeks) and tell us - and the world! - everything he knows about SMiLE. Not because he has to, he doesn't have to do anything. But, because it is driving us crazy!

Seriously, I want somebody - David Anderle, David Leaf, Darian Sahanaja, Jeff Foskett, Scott Bennett, Joe Thomas, Van Dyke Parks, Don Was, Alan Boyd, or a player to be named later - to sit down with Brian and have Brian tell everything he remembers about EVERY song he worked on during the SMiLE era. They can film it and market it, I don't care. The time is now; in a couple of years it will be too late. It should be done for historical purposes; the music is that important. Because of the cathartic and therapeutic benefits that came out of BWPS ::), Brian should be able to handle it. A comprehensive interview is all that is left. We got the boxed set, the re-recordings, and the concerts. What'd you say, Melin..., er, Brian?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 08, 2013, 03:16:59 PM
I finally got some time to do a quick edit of H&V similar to the acetate version that Andy described to see how it flowed, and even though it's a rough, I really enjoyed the sequence. Thanks for describing it for us all Andy!  :)

Here's the sequence:

1. "I've been in this town so long...The spanish and indian home of the H&V"
2. "Once at night...A dude'll do in a town full of H&V"
3  "Acapella break"
4. "Fresh thin air around my head...Great shape of the open country"
5. "My children were raised...Healthy, wealthy and often wise...Jive to survive with the H&V"
6. "Out in the Barnyard..."

I'd be happy to share this with anyone who wants to hear it, but I would need some help as I've never uploaded anything before.

EDIT: Here you go guys: http://theluvbyrds.wix.com/the-luvbyrds#!music/c2516 (http://theluvbyrds.wix.com/the-luvbyrds#!music/c2516)

P.S. I put my preferred edit of "Barnyard" at the end because it didn't sound right to me stopping after the "Tape Explosion" so, just ignore it if you don't like it!  :)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 08, 2013, 03:21:45 PM
I finally got some time to do a quick edit of H&V similar to the acetate version that Andy described to see how it flowed, and even though it's a rough, I really enjoyed the sequence. Thanks for describing it for us all Andy!  :)

Here's the sequence:

1. "I've been in this town so long...The spanish and indian home of the H&V"
2. "Once at night...A dude'll do in a town full of H&V"
3 "Acapella break"
4. "Fresh thin air around my head...Great shape of the open country"
5. "My children were raised...Healthy, wealthy and often wise...Jive to survive with the H&V"
6. "Out in the Barnyard..."

I'd be happy to share this with anyone who wants to hear it, but I would need some help as I've never uploaded anything before.

 :)

So if you were Bicycle Rider, you would still have "training wheels"?  :p


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 08, 2013, 03:24:11 PM
YES!...Three is more fun than two!  ;)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 08, 2013, 03:25:52 PM
The time has come. The time has come for Brian Wilson to sit down (literally) for an extended period of time (hours/days/weeks) and tell us - and the world! - everything he knows about SMiLE. Not because he has to, he doesn't have to do anything. But, because it is driving us crazy!

Seriously, I want somebody - David Anderle, David Leaf, Darian Sahanaja, Jeff Foskett, Scott Bennett, Joe Thomas, Van Dyke Parks, Don Was, Alan Boyd, or a player to be named later - to sit down with Brian and have Brian tell everything he remembers about EVERY song he worked on during the SMiLE era. They can film it and market it, I don't care. The time is now; in a couple of years it will be too late. It should be done for historical purposes; the music is that important. Because of the cathartic and therapeutic benefits that came out of BWPS ::), Brian should be able to handle it. A comprehensive interview is all that is left. We got the boxed set, the re-recordings, and the concerts. What'd you say, Melin..., er, Brian?

Damn straight, Sheriff -- I wonder how much he could recall??

you know my mom is 79, sometimes she forgets my name but can remember details from the 1940's.

Maybe take him back to Western, put his feet in a sandbox and hand him some pie. thatd do the trick!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bicyclerider on March 08, 2013, 06:37:17 PM
For me the rerecording of the verse and fade were attempts to redo the a side of the Heroes single.  It shows how Brian was losing focus and his judgment was impaired - I don't think anyone would consider the verse or fade remakes superior to the originals.  He's making progress on the b side and then decides to scrap the a side?  Indecision, lack of confidence, inability to complete anything - Smile was self destructing and Brian was in meltdown.  He should have stuck with the original IIGS/Barnyard version, I agree with others that the story is more linear and makes more sense than the cantina or the final single version.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chris Brown on March 08, 2013, 07:04:49 PM
Really cool mix Tricycle Rider - I dig the Barnyard/Barnshine hybrid at the end.  Placing IIGS in the middle is a bit jarring for me - I think it's because the instrumentation doesn't flow.  Cantina flows with what comes before it and what goes after.  Maybe that's why I've always preferred that mix to all others.  It all works together, although I think that if edited correctly, there's a version out there with IIGS and Barnyard that works in a different way, like a series of vignettes rather than one cohesive statement.  I don't really agree with the notion that such a version is more linear than the Cantina version.

I'd love to see that too Sheriff but sadly I doubt we ever will - Brian is probably sick to death of talking about Smile.  The time to do that would have been when the box was released.  It's too bad too, because as others have said he would probably remember quite a bit if he was in a relaxed setting with some of the people who were around him during the Smile era. 



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Al Jardine: Pick Up Artist on March 08, 2013, 07:23:07 PM
IIGS works better if there's a bit of a gap before it, and there's no piano lead-in, and-wait for it-it fades out TSS style!

Regardless, I don't think that's the final version. I don't think there is a final version. Not the exploding cantina, not Smiley, not BWPS. H&V as it was intended for SMiLE or the original single (ok, maybe that) was never finished, and it never will be. To me.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 08, 2013, 08:02:35 PM
The time has come. The time has come for Brian Wilson to sit down (literally) for an extended period of time (hours/days/weeks) and tell us - and the world! - everything he knows about SMiLE. Not because he has to, he doesn't have to do anything. But, because it is driving us crazy!

Seriously, I want somebody - David Anderle, David Leaf, Darian Sahanaja, Jeff Foskett, Scott Bennett, Joe Thomas, Van Dyke Parks, Don Was, Alan Boyd, or a player to be named later - to sit down with Brian and have Brian tell everything he remembers about EVERY song he worked on during the SMiLE era. They can film it and market it, I don't care. The time is now; in a couple of years it will be too late. It should be done for historical purposes; the music is that important. Because of the cathartic and therapeutic benefits that came out of BWPS ::), Brian should be able to handle it. A comprehensive interview is all that is left. We got the boxed set, the re-recordings, and the concerts. What'd you say, Melin..., er, Brian?

That's my dream right there Sheriff...I WISH someone would do something like this...And I'd like to see Al Jardine there too. Just sit them all down with all the pieces loaded into a laptop, some steaks, some deserts and some wine, and get them talking!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: AvanTodd on March 08, 2013, 08:09:20 PM
I don't think any of them have anything left to say after 45 years that they haven't said already.  The problem is some of you guys are never satisfied with the answers you're given.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 08, 2013, 08:11:45 PM
Exactamundo.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 08, 2013, 08:17:53 PM
I don't think any of them have anything left to say after 45 years that they haven't said already.  The problem is some of you guys are never satisfied with the answers you're given.

In regard to your first sentence, Brian hasn't even touched the surface in discussing the specific SMiLE songs. In regard to your second sentence, you're probably right, but, boy, wouldn't it be fun.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: grillo on March 08, 2013, 08:23:58 PM
I finally got some time to do a quick edit of H&V similar to the acetate version that Andy described to see how it flowed, and even though it's a rough, I really enjoyed the sequence. Thanks for describing it for us all Andy!  :)

Sounds Great. I love your false barnyard/barnyard. Never heard that before. Not super keen on the edit after IIGS, but overall its awesome!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 08, 2013, 08:30:39 PM
IIGS works better if there's a bit of a gap before it, and there's no piano lead-in, and-wait for it-it fades out TSS style!

Regardless, I don't think that's the final version. I don't think there is a final version. Not the exploding cantina, not Smiley, not BWPS. H&V as it was intended for SMiLE or the original single (ok, maybe that) was never finished, and it never will be. To me.

I agree with you. I actually prefer the cantina version myself. This version is based on the description that Andy gave us of the acetate he heard (not including the Barnyard ending which is mine)

I think you're right about H&V never being finished. It's like trying to add up an equation as the numbers are morphing. Poor Brian.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 08, 2013, 08:49:34 PM
Good Vibrations went to #1 in December of '66. I think that's when he went from being eager make an LP better than Pet Sounds to making a single better than Good Vibrations. Who knows? But it certainly could have fueled his dilema.

I just like talking about Smile.  :afro

Okay, I think I've got it all out of my system.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 08, 2013, 09:01:55 PM
I finally got some time to do a quick edit of H&V similar to the acetate version that Andy described to see how it flowed, and even though it's a rough, I really enjoyed the sequence. Thanks for describing it for us all Andy!  :)

Sounds Great. I love your false barnyard/barnyard. Never heard that before. Not super keen on the edit after IIGS, but overall its awesome!

Thanks grillo!
I know i'll catch hell for saying this, but I honestly think this is where the "Barnyard" lyrics belong. Brian played the H&V demo for "Humble Harv" 15 days after recording the other track, and only 10 days before recording "My Only Sunshine". Considering that he had to have something written, or at least conceived before the session, I think there's a good chance this is the feel he was hearing in his head when he played the song for Harv. Notice how it swings, and how suddenly, the piano from the demo is no longer a problem. Then again, as always, there's no applying reason to anything when it comes to Brian and SMiLE.

I agree about the edit after "Great Shape"! I'm not very good with that time stretching stuff, and i couldn't get the saxophone and tape explosion the way I wanted it. I really wish I was better at that!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 08, 2013, 09:06:28 PM
Good Vibrations went to #1 in December of '66. I think that's when he went from being eager make an LP better than Pet Sounds to making a single better than Good Vibrations. Who knows? But it certainly could have fueled his dilema.

I just like talking about Smile.  :afro

Okay, I think I've got it all out of my system.

Great observation Bubba...I never thought about that before, but it really makes a lot of sense.

So you think you've got it all out of your system eh? (in my best german accent!)  ;)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: monicker on March 08, 2013, 11:54:22 PM
While i see what he was going for with the Cantina version, i’ve never understood how the edit we have was ever considered anything remotely finished at any point. The only reason i say this is that i just find it to be much too short. It feels like it's missing stuff and especially something big, something like Prelude to Fade. I also don't see how it could have been a single on any planet. It would seem that Brian would have been really concerned with topping himself for his next single after GV, and Cantina seems to be going in the right direction to achieve that, but it still had a long ways to go, i think.

As for sheriff's idea of sitting Brian down to discuss Smile in depth...besides that being completely unrealistic, i think that's just a bad idea because suppose he starts throwing out sh*t we've never heard before, stuff he's never said, little insights into songs and structure, etc...what, we're suddenly going to put stock in what Brian Wilson is saying? If we can barely trust a word that comes out of his mouth, new Smile info from him is just gonna open more cans of worms and add more confusion to the murky Smile story, being probed about it 45 years after the fact. That is if he even gives any answers that are more than his short, stock responses. I think, for the most part, Brian is a totally worthless interview.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: hypehat on March 09, 2013, 05:20:53 AM
I don't think any of them have anything left to say after 45 years that they haven't said already.  The problem is some of you guys are never satisfied with the answers you're given.

In regard to your first sentence, Brian hasn't even touched the surface in discussing the specific SMiLE songs. In regard to your second sentence, you're probably right, but, boy, wouldn't it be fun.

Well, what could you realistically ask him?

Brian, did you ever intend to make H&V a two-sided single?

"Yeah, we put it in the boxset. It's great. Great harmonies. The boys really sang on that"

They sure did, Brian. But in 1966? Or 1967?

"Oh, I never finished Heroes And Villains. Too many little sections. I couldn't complete one song. It bummed me out."

Er, but you must have had a plan?

"I was taking too many drugs and it got to me. I couldn't complete it."

Let's get down to brass tacks, Brian. About the use of motifs, can you explain the thematic significance of Do You Like Worms, Heroes & Villains, Vegetables, and Wonderful have similar bridge or fade sections?

"I was experimenting a lot with 'feels', like, little melodic sections that I groove on and they become songs. Wonderful, oh man, that's a beautiful song.

Ok, let's talk about that. Why did you record it four times?

"I recorded it four times?! It's on Smiley Smile, right? I was never satisfied with anything. I was very depressed, I started hearing voices - auditory hallucinations, you know? - and they said things like ARUBA JAMAICA OH I'M GONNA KILL YA when I was in the shower and stuff."

Well I have this version here which is kinda a jazz thing *plays Rock With Me Henry Version* and there's all these little weird vocal inserts for it... Why, may I ask? To what purpose? You must have known, Brian. You don't just re-record something ad naseum, something that was arguably perfect the first time, in various weird ways, without a reason! ...Do you?

*Nods and smiles wanly at stereo for a while* "Carl sang that. Carl was a great singer."




Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: halblaineisgood on March 09, 2013, 05:23:52 AM
.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: hypehat on March 09, 2013, 05:30:47 AM
My point is, it's not like no-one has asked Brian about what he was doing when he wrote this, how he was feeling when he wrote that, what shoes he was wearing, how X went into Y, why Smile collapsed, whether he ever made up with Jules Siegels girlfriend with the bad ESP, whether he ever made out with Jules Siegels girlfriend with the bad ESP, did this song have lyrics, how was this supposed to go, etc, etc. He's been dealing with these questions for FORTY YEARS.

You reckon NO-ONE attempted to have a serious chat with him about Smile in either 2003 or 2011 about how this sh*t went down?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 09, 2013, 05:35:00 AM
I don't think any of them have anything left to say after 45 years that they haven't said already.  The problem is some of you guys are never satisfied with the answers you're given.

In regard to your first sentence, Brian hasn't even touched the surface in discussing the specific SMiLE songs. In regard to your second sentence, you're probably right, but, boy, wouldn't it be fun.

Well, what could you realistically ask him?

Brian, did you ever intend to make H&V a two-sided single?

"Yeah, we put it in the boxset. It's great. Great harmonies. The boys really sang on that"

They sure did, Brian. But in 1966? Or 1967?

"Oh, I never finished Heroes And Villains. Too many little sections. I couldn't complete one song. It bummed me out."

Er, but you must have had a plan?

"I was taking too many drugs and it got to me. I couldn't complete it."

Let's get down to brass tacks, Brian. About the use of motifs, can you explain the thematic significance of Do You Like Worms, Heroes & Villains, Vegetables, and Wonderful have similar bridge or fade sections?

"I was experimenting a lot with 'feels', like, little melodic sections that I groove on and they become songs. Wonderful, oh man, that's a beautiful song.

Ok, let's talk about that. Why did you record it four times?

"I recorded it four times?! It's on Smiley Smile, right? I was never satisfied with anything. I was very depressed, I started hearing voices - auditory hallucinations, you know? - and they said things like ARUBA JAMAICA OH I'M GONNA KILL YA when I was in the shower and stuff."

Well I have this version here which is kinda a jazz thing *plays Rock With Me Henry Version* and there's all these little weird vocal inserts for it... Why, may I ask? To what purpose? You must have known, Brian. You don't just re-record something ad naseum, something that was arguably perfect the first time, in various weird ways, without a reason! ...Do you?

*Nods and smiles wanly at stereo for a while* "Carl sang that. Carl was a great singer."



:lol :lol :lol Great post, reminds me of your "collaborating with Brian" thread.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: seltaeb1012002 on March 09, 2013, 05:47:56 AM
I started hearing voices - auditory hallucinations, you know? - and they said things like ARUBA JAMAICA OH I'M GONNA KILL YA when I was in the shower and stuff."
:lol

Hahahaha. Ah man, so wrong, yet so hilarious.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Firemellow on March 09, 2013, 06:11:46 AM

Post of the month.   :lol

I don't think any of them have anything left to say after 45 years that they haven't said already.  The problem is some of you guys are never satisfied with the answers you're given.

In regard to your first sentence, Brian hasn't even touched the surface in discussing the specific SMiLE songs. In regard to your second sentence, you're probably right, but, boy, wouldn't it be fun.

Well, what could you realistically ask him?

Brian, did you ever intend to make H&V a two-sided single?

"Yeah, we put it in the boxset. It's great. Great harmonies. The boys really sang on that"

They sure did, Brian. But in 1966? Or 1967?

"Oh, I never finished Heroes And Villains. Too many little sections. I couldn't complete one song. It bummed me out."

Er, but you must have had a plan?

"I was taking too many drugs and it got to me. I couldn't complete it."

Let's get down to brass tacks, Brian. About the use of motifs, can you explain the thematic significance of Do You Like Worms, Heroes & Villains, Vegetables, and Wonderful have similar bridge or fade sections?

"I was experimenting a lot with 'feels', like, little melodic sections that I groove on and they become songs. Wonderful, oh man, that's a beautiful song.

Ok, let's talk about that. Why did you record it four times?

"I recorded it four times?! It's on Smiley Smile, right? I was never satisfied with anything. I was very depressed, I started hearing voices - auditory hallucinations, you know? - and they said things like ARUBA JAMAICA OH I'M GONNA KILL YA when I was in the shower and stuff."

Well I have this version here which is kinda a jazz thing *plays Rock With Me Henry Version* and there's all these little weird vocal inserts for it... Why, may I ask? To what purpose? You must have known, Brian. You don't just re-record something ad naseum, something that was arguably perfect the first time, in various weird ways, without a reason! ...Do you?

*Nods and smiles wanly at stereo for a while* "Carl sang that. Carl was a great singer."





Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on March 09, 2013, 06:29:11 AM
I don't think any of them have anything left to say after 45 years that they haven't said already.  The problem is some of you guys are never satisfied with the answers you're given.

In regard to your first sentence, Brian hasn't even touched the surface in discussing the specific SMiLE songs. In regard to your second sentence, you're probably right, but, boy, wouldn't it be fun.

Well, what could you realistically ask him?

Brian, did you ever intend to make H&V a two-sided single?

"Yeah, we put it in the boxset. It's great. Great harmonies. The boys really sang on that"

They sure did, Brian. But in 1966? Or 1967?

"Oh, I never finished Heroes And Villains. Too many little sections. I couldn't complete one song. It bummed me out."

Er, but you must have had a plan?

"I was taking too many drugs and it got to me. I couldn't complete it."

Let's get down to brass tacks, Brian. About the use of motifs, can you explain the thematic significance of Do You Like Worms, Heroes & Villains, Vegetables, and Wonderful have similar bridge or fade sections?

"I was experimenting a lot with 'feels', like, little melodic sections that I groove on and they become songs. Wonderful, oh man, that's a beautiful song.

Ok, let's talk about that. Why did you record it four times?

"I recorded it four times?! It's on Smiley Smile, right? I was never satisfied with anything. I was very depressed, I started hearing voices - auditory hallucinations, you know? - and they said things like ARUBA JAMAICA OH I'M GONNA KILL YA when I was in the shower and stuff."

Well I have this version here which is kinda a jazz thing *plays Rock With Me Henry Version* and there's all these little weird vocal inserts for it... Why, may I ask? To what purpose? You must have known, Brian. You don't just re-record something ad naseum, something that was arguably perfect the first time, in various weird ways, without a reason! ...Do you?

*Nods and smiles wanly at stereo for a while* "Carl sang that. Carl was a great singer."


This is brilliant!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 09, 2013, 08:55:29 AM

You reckon NO-ONE attempted to have a serious chat with him about Smile in either 2003 or 2011 about how this sh*t went down?

No, I don't. To the best of my knowledge, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think anyone attempted an interview, or a series of interviews, to sit down and take each SMiLE song, one at a time, and get Brian to tell EVERYTHING he remembers about the recording of the song. While most interviewers have failed in getting Brian to open up about anything, I am (foolishly?) optimistic that there is SOMEBODY out there who could pull it off, somebody who Brian respects.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 09, 2013, 10:04:00 AM
How do you know that Darian, (a smile expert?) didn't sit down with Brian and go through smile song by song.

Considering the amount of smile obsessives in the beach boys community I doubt they would have released a completed smile album without consulting Brian, in depth on it.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: hypehat on March 09, 2013, 10:15:03 AM

You reckon NO-ONE attempted to have a serious chat with him about Smile in either 2003 or 2011 about how this sh*t went down?

No, I don't. To the best of my knowledge, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think anyone attempted an interview, or a series of interviews, to sit down and take each SMiLE song, one at a time, and get Brian to tell EVERYTHING he remembers about the recording of the song. While most interviewers have failed in getting Brian to open up about anything, I am (foolishly?) optimistic that there is SOMEBODY out there who could pull it off, somebody who Brian respects.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv2iTjYWma0

This documentary may interest you, have you seen it?

If you purchase the DVD, you get many lovely extras, including Van Dyke asking Brian about Smile songs - I remember this choice tidbit.

VDP: Brian, what were you thinking, or feeling, when writing the music to Surf's Up?

BW: I was feeling a lot of love. [Long pause] Yeah, a lot of love.


I know it's nice to feel that somewhere up there, Brian has The Answer, but he's unwilling or unable to share that information with any one. My money's on the latter.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 09, 2013, 10:33:55 AM
How do you know that Darian, (a smile expert?) didn't sit down with Brian and go through smile song by song.

Considering the amount of smile obsessives in the beach boys community I doubt they would have released a completed smile album without consulting Brian, in depth on it.

8 years or so have passed since this was discussed, but it can be confirmed by both published and word-of-mouth sources how the process worked. If I get any of it wrong, feel free to correct, but I'm certain this is how it was:

Darian had loaded the various Smile songs, fragments, sections, and whatnot into his DAW-laptop, and when he would get together with Brian during pre-production to assemble a cohesive "whole" from what existed, he was able to sequence those fragments and segments in any order so they could audition certain ways of putting the sections together. They were both able (along with whoever else was involved, which would later be Van Dyke) to hear almost on the fly what these sections would sound like in various sequences and how it affected the musical flow.

Certain musical parts were discovered which had been buried, masked, or missing from what was generally known to exist of those songs, and things like a clarinet countermelody or whatever else were incorporated into the final arrangements.

So the answer is "yes", Brian did in fact go through the process of hearing, remembering, and working through each of these Smile fragments and songs and that was the basis of the final product which we heard live and eventually got on the studio recording.

Similar processes were done for trying to capture and match the original instrumental sounds so they could be reproduced on a live stage without having to haul, say, 10 different acoustic keyboard and mallet instruments to each show,  and the original tapes were the basis of that.

And of course, the newly-written segues and instrumental interludes were added and composed by the same team, including Van Dyke, Darian, and Brian whose melodies were the basis of the incidental music.

That's different from having a magazine writer sitting down with Brian and a stereo and playing Smile tracks for Brian as he provides rolling commentary on each one, but having "listening sessions" in preparation for Smile and playing with the sequencing and basing musical decisions on what was remembered from the original ideas in 66-67 was a part of the process, no doubt at all on that point.

One of them, perhaps even Brian in an interview, specifically mentioned the benefit of having the digital technology in 2003 to play around with the order of those fragments on the fly, which to do in 1967 involved tape splices, test edits and mixes, and a much more involved and longer process. So technology existed too which made it more possible to piece things together now than it did then. A process that could take, say, 20 minutes to just audition a certain order in '67 could be done in seconds.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 09, 2013, 11:11:25 AM
Fantastic, thanks for that guitarfool.

The re-recording Smile isn't a perfect album and since we got an official smile release it's (bar a few tracks) been rendered obsolete in my collection. I still have a lot respect to Brian's band for doing such an incredible job replicating those original tracks, even though I think they sound a little too perfect it was still one hell of an achievement.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 09, 2013, 12:23:42 PM
So the answer is "yes", Brian did in fact go through the process of hearing, remembering, and working through each of these Smile fragments and songs and that was the basis of the final product which we heard live and eventually got on the studio recording.

That's different from having a magazine writer sitting down with Brian and a stereo and playing Smile tracks for Brian as he provides rolling commentary on each one, but having "listening sessions" in preparation for Smile and playing with the sequencing and basing musical decisions on what was remembered from the original ideas in 66-67 was a part of the process, no doubt at all on that point.

guitarfool, I apologize for the way I edited your post, but I just wanted to highlight it as it pertains to my point.

In my opinion, there is a substantial difference in the Darian/Brian BWPS sessions and some in-depth interviews, as you have also noted - and I'm not directing my comments at you. First, as an admitted skeptic of Brian's participation in the whole BWPS saga, we don't know to what extent Brian and Darian actually discussed the tracks. Of course they had to hash things out to SOME extent, but it wouldn't surprise me if Brian simply supplied one word/one sentence answers to Darian on many occasions.

I've often gotten a mental picture of Darian at his laptop and Brian sitting on a couch, and Darian asking, "Was 'He Gives Speeches' a part of SMiLE..."? And, Brian simply responding, "No, I junked that...." And that was the end of that. Or Darian asking, "Should we work on 'With Me Tonight'..."? And Brian saying, "No, I don't think I wanna use that...".

I don't doubt that Brian guided Darian and put some pieces together. I'm not that ignorant. But, Darian's assembling of and sequencing of BWPS is not THAT complicated and didn't differ SIGNIFICANTLY from many "SMiLE scholars" over the years. There weren't many surprises, and even fewer surprises that we heard came directly from Brian, other than a lyric here or a link there.

I've read and seen pretty many interviews regarding BWPS, and I didn't get the feeling that Darian and Brian had long, drawn out conversations about the material. That's just my take. Actually I saw just the opposite, with Darian taking the project and running with it, with Brian nodding his approval.

I got the same feeling with the boxed set. Again there was obviously some input from Brian, but limited. I guess my point is, Brian has never really opened up extensively - in print or on film - where he takes each individual song and DESCRIBES what he had in mind, what he was doing with it. I never visualized that as a painful experience. Would Brian be "coming down" or "lowering himself" to talk about SMiLE so many years later? In the right setting with the right interviewer and the right refreshments and the right money, why couldn't something like that happen?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: hypehat on March 09, 2013, 12:33:29 PM
Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 09, 2013, 12:41:24 PM
Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

I know it sounds silly but I don't think anybody ever forced the issue because, you know, it's Brian Wilson. Brian was always strange when it came to SMiLE, and I would imagine he shut down that subject whenever it was mentioned. Certainly you've read some of his weird, untrue responses over the years when he was approached about the subject.

It's possible that Brian's forgotten a substantial amount, and, as somebody noted in an above post, we wouldn't believe his answers anyway. ;D

I don't have a good answer as to who the best person would be. If I had to choose one, it would be Darian. They have a good working relationship, Darian knows the material, Brian trusts him, Melinda trusts him. I'm beating a dead horse and I'm going to get off it, but what is so difficult or inappropriate or ILLOGICAL to meet in Brian's living room or at the kitchen table or at the piano - AND JUST TALK ABOUT SMILE!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Don Malcolm on March 09, 2013, 12:45:12 PM
So the answer is "yes", Brian did in fact go through the process of hearing, remembering, and working through each of these Smile fragments and songs and that was the basis of the final product which we heard live and eventually got on the studio recording.

That's different from having a magazine writer sitting down with Brian and a stereo and playing Smile tracks for Brian as he provides rolling commentary on each one, but having "listening sessions" in preparation for Smile and playing with the sequencing and basing musical decisions on what was remembered from the original ideas in 66-67 was a part of the process, no doubt at all on that point.

guitarfool, I apologize for the way I edited your post, but I just wanted to highlight it as it pertains to my point.

In my opinion, there is a substantial difference in the Darian/Brian BWPS sessions and some in-depth interviews, as you have also noted - and I'm not directing my comments at you. First, as an admitted skeptic of Brian's participation in the whole BWPS saga, we don't know to what extent Brian and Darian actually discussed the tracks. Of course they had to hash things out to SOME extent, but it wouldn't surprise me if Brian simply supplied one word/one sentence answers to Darian on many occasions.

I've often gotten a mental picture of Darian at his laptop and Brian sitting on a couch, and Darian asking, "Was 'He Gives Speeches' a part of SMiLE..."? And, Brian simply responding, "No, I junked that...." And that was the end of that. Or Darian asking, "Should we work on 'With Me Tonight'..."? And Brian saying, "No, I don't think I wanna use that...".

I don't doubt that Brian guided Darian and put some pieces together. I'm not that ignorant. But, Darian's assembling of and sequencing of BWPS is not THAT complicated and didn't differ SIGNIFICANTLY from many "SMiLE scholars" over the years. There weren't many surprises, and even fewer surprises that we heard came directly from Brian, other than a lyric here or a link there.

I've read and seen pretty many interviews regarding BWPS, and I didn't get the feeling that Darian and Brian had long, drawn out conversations about the material. That's just my take. Actually I saw just the opposite, with Darian taking the project and running with it, with Brian nodding his approval.

I got the same feeling with the boxed set. Again there was obviously some input from Brian, but limited. I guess my point is, Brian has never really opened up extensively - in print or on film - where he takes each individual song and DESCRIBES what he had in mind, what he was doing with it. I never visualized that as a painful experience. Would Brian be "coming down" or "lowering himself" to talk about SMiLE so many years later? In the right setting with the right interviewer and the right refreshments and the right money, why couldn't something like that happen?

First off, all kinds of interesting thoughts to be found in this thread, ranging from hard-core research to unhinged speculation, with those two extremes occasionally merged together in an inspired delirium.

Which is quite probably the state of mind Brian was in as he got trapped in the looking-glass of SMILE. The fact of that particular type of entrapment might well be the reason why he will never be able to articulate the types of things that the Sheriff (and many, many of the rest of us) would dearly love to hear coming from his mouth.

It's a miracle that a reasonably credible completed version of SMILE emerged, and while it's fun to go back to the looking-glass, we have to remember that for those involved with the project, it's not so fun. They went back through and emerged with a reasonable facsimile. Knowing EXACTLY what went awry with H&V et al is fascinating, to be sure, but how much trauma revisitation should anyone in that situation be forced to do?

Paul Williams used to insist that the Smiley version of H&V was a miracle simply because Brian finally stripped it down and made it into a single release in the mundane world of rock music in 1967. For many of the rest of us, the "fantastic" world of the song in its perpetually liminal state is much more alluring. Williams also said don't let anyone watch you paint, because there's a good chance that they'll be disappointed with the finished product.

But still...knowing exactly how H&V went through its long and winding road is something more than cautionary...it's the tale of a star-crossed creative process that, like David Anderle's painting of Brian, has captured our souls. Perhaps Mr. Desper or Alan or one of our several dedicated and musically sophisticated posters here can take on that project and make an aural documentary about it.

However, whoever does so should be prepared for the fact that it will never put this issue to rest...

 :police: (You're under arrest!!)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 09, 2013, 12:49:37 PM
Sheriff, I agree with many of your points in your reply, and they were very well made. The only one I have a different opinion on might be Brian's overall involvement, and that's just a difference of opinion from afar. After looking at all things Smile, there is always the sense that many aspects appear as a conundrum rather than a definite answer when we try to put the pieces of the story together. I'm afraid certain things will always be that way when telling the history.

I think your reply and mine both lead back to opening up those other cans of worms that lead to other subjects of discussion, which as this thread proves is usually the case with Smile!

Perhaps some points and some questions just have too many holes to fill, or are points which have simply been forgotten with time. I think of that Beatles Anthology montage they included where Paul George and Ringo are asked the same question and each remembers specific details different from the others. It's funny how they edited it, but it stands as an example of the only three guys who were actually there and who could answer such questions not being able to agree on exactly what happened, yet they all remember it. Just like the other Beatle-related questions about who-played-what like the guitar harmonies on "And Your Bird Can Sing"...no one has said for sure who it was, yet two of them played it in 1966.

With Smile, specifically the 2004 staging for the live shows, I think of preparing a dinner party...in my own bizarre way of using analogies to explain my thinking.

Brian had already created the recipes, he had already cooked the food, he had everything ready to go from his kitchen. The only thing left to do was to plate the food, garnish it, and serve it...and as you said, the live staging stayed pretty true to what we already had heard on the majority of those tracks. So Brian as head chef had everything ready to go, but needed a sous chef or a party planner to *execute* the meal, or in this case put all his prepared dishes into something organized and presentable that could be served to the guests.

In that way, I'd almost suggest Brian's work was all but complete back in 1967 with the work he left in the vaults. I'm trying to think how much more exactly he could have personally done in 2003 or 2004 to make his involvement seem any greater than it already was.

If we accept that much if not most of the live show was already in existence on tape in the vaults, minus the obvious segue material and newer lyrics from Van Dyke, wouldn't it be like suggesting that the sous chef or party planner who made everything presentable and served the dinner guests in an organized way had actually done more than the head chef whose work was already done in the kitchen, and whose original recipes had already formed the foundation of the meal itself?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 09, 2013, 01:58:04 PM
For what it is worth, these are the known parts recorded for the presumed side 2 of the two sided H&V single. They are all noted for the H&V Part II master #57045 which is noted as "side 2" on the first session box of January 5. I included the session numbers from the AFMs after the master number because I noticed again that all of the known sessions are shown as consecutive session number with letter designation beginning with 14247 and then 14247-A through 14247-D which is also significant and had been explained to me at one time but I don't remember what the significance is exactly.

I put the TSS CD and track numbers on there where they are known [according to c-man] but March 2 just has notes about the musicians.

January 5    
Heroes & Villains - Part 2; “Side 2”;   57045/14247
Bicycle Rider overdubs:  TTS CD 3: 5

February 27      
Heroes & Villains - Part II   57045/14247-A
Chorus backing on single version: TSS CD 2: 27

February 28    
Heroes & Villains - Part II Insert   57045/14247-B;
“Fade out to Heroes and Villians” w/ Carl vocal: TSS CD 2: 28
 
March 1    
Heroes & Villains - Part II  57045/14247-C
Verse remake   TSS CD 2: 29
“Intro to Heroes and Villains”   TSS CD 2: 30

March 2    
Heroes & Villains, Part II (Insert)   57045/14247-D
Musicians: Hal Blaine, Gene Estes, Carol Kaye, Lyle Ritz

So basically this seems to be the gist of the known side 2 of a two sided H&V single. Is there anything noteable about the keys etc. in comparison to the tracks recorded for H&V master #57020.  The master #s are noted by c-man in the TSS booklet.  Take timing for Part II?

So I guess Part II was  at least the intro [Elements] and the fade [YAMS] with the chorus [DYLW], verse [H&V side 1], and something yet to be identified [?] presumably with percussion and basses in between.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 09, 2013, 02:32:20 PM
Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

Smile scholar I'm not.  whether Brian had a grand plan, I don't know either.
What I do know:  Coach told me many many many times that Brian remembered/remembers everything. He said that if he wants, he could tell you what instrument was played/ by whom/ on what day/studio etc for any/every session he ever did.    I have to believe that applies as much to Smile as anything; after all, Smile was one of Bob's best subjects! ( Miss you,dude! )
 The trick of the trick is getting Brian to want to tell.  Good luck on that. 


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: FatherOfTheMan Sr101 on March 09, 2013, 06:06:33 PM
"Dit Dit Dit Heroes and Villians"

Could that have been a link to IIGS?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SenorPotatoHead on March 09, 2013, 07:05:22 PM
I don't see the repetition of musical phrases/parts as being unthinkable.  The idea that he cannibalized other songs for H&V, leaving the other songs "dead in the water", doesn't necessarily hold up.   It was to be a modern music (pop/rock/teenage) symphony (to God, no less), yes?  I'm no expert on symphonies, but do they not self reference within themselves certain key musical passages, at times perhaps anyway?  Maybe they don't, I'm asking anyone out here who may know (yes, I could Google it or something, but it's late here and I'm tired).   The musical passages that are repeated in Smile - the Bicycle Rider theme for instance, is done differently each time (i.e. it is different musically in DYLW than it is in H&V), so that may be something that was fully intended to happen.  Maybe not, I don't know.  Perhaps someone else does know.....


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 09, 2013, 07:23:54 PM
If I'm right about the evidence, the H&V Part II BR section wouldn't have been on the album. It would have been on the side 2 of the single along with other altered reference to tracks on the album. Same with the second YAMS fade with Carl. Same with the Fire like H&V Part II intro. So it wouldn't really be a "conflict" among songs on the album anyway.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 09, 2013, 07:28:57 PM
Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

Smile scholar I'm not.  whether Brian had a grand plan, I don't know either.
What I do know:  Coach told me many many many times that Brian remembered/remembers everything. He said that if he wants, he could tell you what instrument was played/ by whom/ on what day/studio etc for any/every session he ever did.    I have to believe that applies as much to Smile as anything; after all, Smile was one of Bob's best subjects! ( Miss you,dude! )
 The trick of the trick is getting Brian to want to tell.  Good luck on that.  

I didn't want to jump in on this too much, but it reminded me of when he sent me a message online to give him a call, which I did. When he picked up the phone, I could hear Smile music being played in the background! After that ended he put on Hawaii '67, I think that was what he wanted to talk about. But I sheepishly began asking questions, the usual who-when-where-what does it sound like kind of stuff. The conversation came around to meeting Brian, after he described talking to Brian's buddies from school. If I remember, he said understanding that part of Brian's life was key to making sense of Smile, focus on who Brian was, what he was like, how he acted among those friends when they were in school, all that stuff, because some of those elements of his personality came out in Smile.

And that stuck with me, and it also puts a different angle on how I view certain bits of audio versus seeing them as a bunch of guys goofing off in the studio...but I digress.

Anyway, he described a meeting with Brian. And the main thing i took away was when he described sitting down in the room with him, and instead of a list of questions and all that, they struck up a conversation about baseball, the Dodgers (obviously!) if I recall, and just began casually shooting the sh*t back and forth like regular people sharing a common interest and enjoying themselves. And his point was, I think, that Brian isn't the image many perceive or assume or imagine when he's just relaxing and kicking back with good people and friends, and yes he can recall and remember specific events that would probably blow our minds. But we don't get that from interviews and TV appearances.

And I think, again not to jump in but to add to what Bgas is saying, those are the times when he'd be more likely to let his guard down and just have a friendly chat, rather than being interviewed or recorded or knowing his words would be dissected and analyzed by a myriad of fans and "scholars". And if he gets a few specifics wrong or whatever, that wouldn't be the takeaway.

Bgas' post made me think of a really fun and informative phone conversation that (wow...) at this point happened 10+ years ago, and I gathered that was the Reverend's style, to share and discuss like that. And just when you thought you had something Smile-related all figured out, the Reverend might add one thing into the mix which would blow your perfect theory out of the water and start a new search mission for more info. Very cool.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: monicker on March 09, 2013, 11:10:45 PM
Smile scholar I'm not.  whether Brian had a grand plan, I don't know either.
What I do know:  Coach told me many many many times that Brian remembered/remembers everything. He said that if he wants, he could tell you what instrument was played/ by whom/ on what day/studio etc for any/every session he ever did.    I have to believe that applies as much to Smile as anything; after all, Smile was one of Bob's best subjects! ( Miss you,dude! )
 The trick of the trick is getting Brian to want to tell.  Good luck on that. 

And his point was, I think, that Brian isn't the image many perceive or assume or imagine when he's just relaxing and kicking back with good people and friends, and yes he can recall and remember specific events that would probably blow our minds. But we don't get that from interviews and TV appearances.

So, what, Brian is playing dumb in interviews when an interviewer mentions something very basic to him about BB history and he responds with "Is that right? Holy cow!"? Or when he's off on the year of a song/album, or says assuredly that so-and-so played on such-and-such song, when the AFM sheet and session tapes reveal that it was someone else...that's just a put on? I'm not doubting at all that Brian is very different in private than he is in interviews, and that talking to him casually about unrelated things is probably the best way to get him to open up about other things, but i am questioning the claim that he has impeccable memory. I mean, if true, that truly would blow my mind, and i'd really be scratching my head trying to make sense of decade's worth of interviews.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: seltaeb1012002 on March 09, 2013, 11:21:20 PM

Bgas' post made me think of a really fun and informative phone conversation that (wow...) at this point happened 10+ years ago, and I gathered that was the Reverend's style, to share and discuss like that. And just when you thought you had something Smile-related all figured out, the Reverend might add one thing into the mix which would blow your perfect theory out of the water and start a new search mission for more info. Very cool.

Sort of OT. The last time I had an in depth convo with the late great Bob on the phone was probably about 10 years ago as well. Granted I was pretty young at the time.. and I apologize profusely if I'm going nuts here. But didn't Bob once throw out that a respected source thought they came up on an acetate of at least "one side" of a SMiLE album? Am I the only one that remembers this? Either way I'd imagine it's been debunked since we haven't heard about it since.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: runnersdialzero on March 09, 2013, 11:48:24 PM
I've often gotten a mental picture of Darian at his laptop and Brian sitting on a couch, and Darian asking, "Was 'He Gives Speeches' a part of SMiLE..."? And, Brian simply responding, "No, I junked that...." And that was the end of that.

Brian Wilson on the subject of "He Gives Speeches", 1966: "THIS IS GONNA BE SO GREAT I'M NOT KIDDING" (presumably followed with "srsly u guyz" after the fade on the TSS edit)
Brian Wilson on the subject of "He Gives Speeches", 2003: "Naw. Junk that flaming pile of sh*t."


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Dunderhead on March 10, 2013, 01:00:42 AM
I think Brian returned to the studio most days, beginning from January 1967 onwards, with the resolution that it would be the final session necessary to complete the track.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 10, 2013, 07:25:13 AM
Exactly but I would say that is true of all SMiLE. Brian had everything thought through before he went to the studio. After a session or few he had the whole song, anything after that is an adjustment which he had also thought through before he went to the studio. He recorded only what he needed to make the adjustment he had planned. Adjustment does not equal confusion or struggle or obsession. It didn't for GV and it didn't for SMiLE and H&V.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: hypehat on March 10, 2013, 08:25:17 AM
Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

Smile scholar I'm not.  whether Brian had a grand plan, I don't know either.
What I do know:  Coach told me many many many times that Brian remembered/remembers everything. He said that if he wants, he could tell you what instrument was played/ by whom/ on what day/studio etc for any/every session he ever did.    I have to believe that applies as much to Smile as anything; after all, Smile was one of Bob's best subjects! ( Miss you,dude! )
 The trick of the trick is getting Brian to want to tell.  Good luck on that. 

With all respect to Bob Hanes, I think that's at best EXTREMELY wishful thinking. Brian Wilson isn't a MENSA level genius with nigh on total recall. He's a smart dude, but NO-ONE remembers exactly what they were doing on a Tuesday afternoon forty years ago. He's not a safe waiting to be cracked. He may have a good memory (and we've seen evidence of that when he's in a good mood), but he's not the fucking rain man or something.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: The Heartical Don on March 10, 2013, 08:48:27 AM
Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

Smile scholar I'm not.  whether Brian had a grand plan, I don't know either.
What I do know:  Coach told me many many many times that Brian remembered/remembers everything. He said that if he wants, he could tell you what instrument was played/ by whom/ on what day/studio etc for any/every session he ever did.    I have to believe that applies as much to Smile as anything; after all, Smile was one of Bob's best subjects! ( Miss you,dude! )
 The trick of the trick is getting Brian to want to tell.  Good luck on that. 

With all respect to Bob Hanes, I think that's at best EXTREMELY wishful thinking. Brian Wilson isn't a MENSA level genius with nigh on total recall. He's a smart dude, but NO-ONE remembers exactly what they were doing on a Tuesday afternoon forty years ago. He's not a safe waiting to be cracked. He may have a good memory (and we've seen evidence of that when he's in a good mood), but he's not the fucking rain man or something.


Intriguing debate, this. I would not exclude the possibility of Bob H. having been onto something here. I am pretty certain that Brian's mind and brain work very differently, compared to those of an average person. I will return on the matter tomorrow (gotta log out in haste, glad that I just caught this on time).


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 10, 2013, 09:01:18 AM
Yeah, I don't buy that theory.

I've seen Brian have moments of clarity but I think the drugs have done a number on his memory


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 10, 2013, 10:58:23 AM
Coach told me many many many times that Brian remembered/remembers everything. He said that if he wants, he could tell you what instrument was played/ by whom/ on what day/studio etc for any/every session he ever did.

Reverend Bob Hanes, Church of The Harmonic Overdub told you that?  I have a hard time believing that Bob said that, and if he did, he was exaggerating. I never heard him say (or write) that. If that were the case, don't you think by now that Brian would have sat down with Darian or Jeff or another interviewer that he trusted and one of them would have taken notes on every small detail and documented all of it? Why wouldn't Brian have done it by now, especially since he's had "closure" with BWPS and the "Beach Boys Smile Sessions" release? If that were the case, why wouldn't he have sat down with Boyd or Linett or the writers of the Sessions booklet or Priore and put all speculation to rest? I don't buy it. Especially after 40+ years of trying to forget the damn thing.

That's kinda like saying, if there was a conspiracy in the JFK assassination, why hasn't someone in the past 50 years come forth to verify it with evidence? Well, kinda like that.......


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 10, 2013, 12:26:41 PM
Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

Smile scholar I'm not.  whether Brian had a grand plan, I don't know either.
What I do know:  Coach told me many many many times that Brian remembered/remembers everything. He said that if he wants, he could tell you what instrument was played/ by whom/ on what day/studio etc for any/every session he ever did.    I have to believe that applies as much to Smile as anything; after all, Smile was one of Bob's best subjects! ( Miss you,dude! )
 The trick of the trick is getting Brian to want to tell.  Good luck on that. 

With all respect to Bob Hanes, I think that's at best EXTREMELY wishful thinking. Brian Wilson isn't a MENSA level genius with nigh on total recall. He's a smart dude, but NO-ONE remembers exactly what they were doing on a Tuesday afternoon forty years ago. He's not a safe waiting to be cracked. He may have a good memory (and we've seen evidence of that when he's in a good mood), but he's not the fucking rain man or something.


Whether Brian is or isn't, I think Marilu Henner and those folks with the same gift?  might argue your  NO-ONE point:
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/05/01/seen-at-11-rare-mental-condition-gives-actress-henner-super-human-memory/


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SenorPotatoHead on March 10, 2013, 01:10:39 PM

That's kinda like saying, if there was a conspiracy in the JFK assassination, why hasn't someone in the past 50 years come forth to verify it with evidence? Well, kinda like that.......

JFK And The Unspeakable by James W. Douglass makes it pretty plain and apparent that all these years of conspiracy speculation have not been unfounded (as pertains to JFK's assassination).   

Now back to the Beach Boys....  :)



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 10, 2013, 01:34:03 PM
Oswald has rolled over in his grave many times laughing at all the conspiracy theories. Heard a new one lately? You can make big bucks off of it! No conspiracy theory has ever been confirmed in the past 50 years, including by someone on their death bed. Read Posner & Bugliosi - just two of many investigators/authors who subscribe to the lone gunman theory.

And now a word from our sponser....


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Peter Reum on March 10, 2013, 01:39:56 PM
Bob told me that story about the Side 1 acetate. I took with a grain of salt, simply because we both like to fish, and record collector stories about the one that got away are pretty similar to fishin' stories. That said, never say never, because just when you do, a UFO flies over your head and winks at you!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: ash on March 10, 2013, 02:27:19 PM
Oswald has rolled over in his grave many times laughing at all the conspiracy theories. Heard a new one lately? You can make big bucks off of it! No conspiracy theory has ever been confirmed in the past 50 years, including by someone on their death bed. Read Posner & Bugliosi - just two of many investigators/authors who subscribe to the lone gunman theory.

And now a word from our sponser....

Posner and Bugliosi probably made big bucks too.
As for  Smile and the Heroes and Villains conundrum there is no magic bullet solution.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SenorPotatoHead on March 10, 2013, 02:39:55 PM
Oswald has rolled over in his grave many times laughing at all the conspiracy theories. Heard a new one lately? You can make big bucks off of it! No conspiracy theory has ever been confirmed in the past 50 years, including by someone on their death bed. Read Posner & Bugliosi - just two of many investigators/authors who subscribe to the lone gunman theory.

And now a word from our sponser....

I'm just recommending the book (since you brought the topic up), you can read it or not, don't matter to me either way.  





Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 10, 2013, 02:43:56 PM
Oswald has rolled over in his grave many times laughing at all the conspiracy theories. Heard a new one lately? You can make big bucks off of it! No conspiracy theory has ever been confirmed in the past 50 years, including by someone on their death bed. Read Posner & Bugliosi - just two of many investigators/authors who subscribe to the lone gunman theory.

And now a word from our sponser....

I'm just recommending the book (since you brought the topic up), you can read it or not, don't matter to me either way.  





Mikie is extremely well acquainted with both sides of this issue. I followed very extensive discussions on the subject years ago on the Cabinessence board and he was the expert on the subject. Like any rational-thinking person though, he didn't find any value in the conspiracy theory angle. I agree too - it's one of the most unfounded positions I have ever encountered but has led to a major industry.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: ash on March 10, 2013, 02:45:56 PM
It's an excellent book. RFK jnr personally congratulated Douglass on it apparently.
Not sure what Allen Dulles and David Atlee Phillips can add to the debate on Heroes and Villains part 1 and 2 though.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: seltaeb1012002 on March 10, 2013, 02:50:41 PM
Bob told me that story about the Side 1 acetate. I took with a grain of salt, simply because we both like to fish, and record collector stories about the one that got away are pretty similar to fishin' stories. That said, never say never, because just when you do, a UFO flies over your head and winks at you!

I thought he said that. Glad to know I'm not crazy. Man, imagine?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 10, 2013, 02:50:57 PM
James W. Douglass is a charlatan and a fraud. Period. He should be taken as seriously as any rabid Holocaust denier and it is somewhat unfair to Holocaust deniers to draw a comparison between them and Douglass. At least they are typically only confined to one absurd conspiracy theory, but Douglass spreads his charlantanry all over the map to whatever the least conspiracy fad is. But what they do have in common is that they can make entirely groundless, fabricated, insulting and inhumane theories  sound exciting.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: ash on March 10, 2013, 03:06:16 PM
Fair enough. Maybe we could discuss The Warmth Of The Sun instead !


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 10, 2013, 03:10:09 PM
Actually this has probably come up before but I am curious if anyone has any thoughts about considering what Heroes and Villains might have sounded like at particular stages. What might a fall Heroes have sounded like? How about a December version? January? February?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: seltaeb1012002 on March 10, 2013, 03:11:58 PM
Actually this has probably come up before but I am curious if anyone has any thoughts about considering what Heroes and Villains might have sounded like at particular stages. What might a fall Heroes have sounded like? How about a December version? January? February?

I made an edit of what an early H&V might have sounded like. https://vimeo.com/51757254


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 10, 2013, 04:02:29 PM
Jules Siegel was one who thought he might have gotten the whole album on acetate back in the day, but they had been lost/stolen. I'm thinking they probably got acetates from some of the comp tapes with some of the various tracks like the ones that still exist.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: KittyKat on March 10, 2013, 04:30:04 PM
What precedent would Brian have for making a two-sided single? More than one Beach Boys two-song singles had hits with both the A and B sides, such as "Wouldn't It Be Nice" and "God Only Knows." That fact alone may have discouraged him from wanting to create two sides with one song, if he ever thought of it. The only two sided single I can think of from that era is "Sky Pilot" by the Animals, but that wasn't until 1968.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 10, 2013, 04:34:41 PM
What precedent would Brian have for making a two-sided single?

What precedent would Brian have for most of the stuff he was doing at that time?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 10, 2013, 04:39:37 PM
One more pop here, and I'll step aside to let the guys here debate whether there were two sides to Heroes & Villains and if the Barnyard segment was indeed intended for the song. Oh, and the other theory that's been debated to death over the years - whether there was ever a 12 minute version recorded (as was rumored way back in the late 70's when I first heard parts of Smile on a cassette tape). I always questioned the Good Vibrations melody played by an instrument in the middle of H & V myself. ;D

Thanks, Rock&Roll. Dunno about an expert, but I sure have read many, many books/articles/documents on the subject since 1964!

Was all ready to take Sr. Potatohead and Ash up on the recommendation to read "JFK And The Unspeakable" but then Rock&Roll called the author a fraud.  :-D  Anybody who denies there was a Holocaust looses a little credibility with me.  But I'll be sure to look for excerpts on the book and give it a chance.

P.S. RFK Jr. has always been a conspiracy theorist. He believes a second gunman was involved, and his Dad thought maybe organized crime had something to do with it. RFK publicly supported the Warren Commission but privately had doubts about some of their findings.

Sorry to derail you guys, but couldn't help myself!   :)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 10, 2013, 04:43:52 PM
Was all ready to take Sr. Potatohead and Ash up on the recommendation to read "JFK And The Unspeakable" but then Rock&Roll called the author a fraud.  :-D  Anybody who denies there was a Holocaust looses a little credibility with me. But I'll be sure look for excerpts on the book and give it a chance.

Just want to quickly say that Douglass hasn't denied the Holocaust. He is a Kennedy and 9/11 conspiracy theorist though which, to me, only dramatically contributes to the irrationality of thinking at large.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 10, 2013, 04:44:55 PM
Anyone here remember "Barnyard Billy" and if so, are we still quite certain we want to make Brian the final authority on these questions?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 10, 2013, 04:45:52 PM
Rock&Roll, Douglass and Oliver Stone are probably good buddies.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 10, 2013, 04:47:17 PM
Fair enough. Maybe we could discuss The Warmth Of The Sun instead !

There's a little controversy there, too, about which day it was actually written!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 10, 2013, 04:47:31 PM
Rock&Roll, Douglass and Oliver Stone are probably good buddies.

Funny you should mention it:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/oliver-stone/jfk-and-the-unspeakable_b_243924.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/oliver-stone/jfk-and-the-unspeakable_b_243924.html)  ;D


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 10, 2013, 05:00:00 PM
Anyone here remember "Barnyard Billy" and if so, are we still quite certain we want to make Brian the final authority on these questions?

On October 1, 2012 Alan Boyd said that "Barnyard" was to be about this character 'Barnyard Billy' that loved his chickens, and that it was to be a part of "Heroes And Villains".


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 10, 2013, 05:14:53 PM
What precedent would Brian have for making a two-sided single? More than one Beach Boys two-song singles had hits with both the A and B sides, such as "Wouldn't It Be Nice" and "God Only Knows." That fact alone may have discouraged him from wanting to create two sides with one song, if he ever thought of it. The only two sided single I can think of from that era is "Sky Pilot" by the Animals, but that wasn't until 1968.

I mentioned two earlier in this thread which were very big hits: Fingertips by "Little" Stevie Wonder and What I'd Say by Ray Charles. They were songs where the band continued jamming after the unofficial 3 minute or so ending point of most 45rpm sides, so instead of cutting all that great stuff out - which in Stevie Wonder's case is/was some of the best impromptu R&B soul jamming of the 60's on that one song - they faded out the A side and continued the song on the B side. That way DJ's still had a compact single to spin on the radio, but those who wanted to hear the full version could flip the record over.

So there definitely was precedent for the two-sided 45rpm release, in the case of Ray Charles that was out almost a decade before Brian tackled Heroes.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 10, 2013, 05:26:07 PM
Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

Smile scholar I'm not.  whether Brian had a grand plan, I don't know either.
What I do know:  Coach told me many many many times that Brian remembered/remembers everything. He said that if he wants, he could tell you what instrument was played/ by whom/ on what day/studio etc for any/every session he ever did.    I have to believe that applies as much to Smile as anything; after all, Smile was one of Bob's best subjects! ( Miss you,dude! )
 The trick of the trick is getting Brian to want to tell.  Good luck on that. 

With all respect to Bob Hanes, I think that's at best EXTREMELY wishful thinking. Brian Wilson isn't a MENSA level genius with nigh on total recall. He's a smart dude, but NO-ONE remembers exactly what they were doing on a Tuesday afternoon forty years ago. He's not a safe waiting to be cracked. He may have a good memory (and we've seen evidence of that when he's in a good mood), but he's not the fucking rain man or something.


Point 1: We don't know what Brian was discussing or what he and Bob were talking about, do we? Perhaps the minute Smile details we're all hoping to read never came up in those talks, maybe it did, we just don't know every word that was spoken. Therefore Bob's statement might not apply as broadly across topics as some of us might want or assume.

Point 2: This is from a man who actually sat down in a casual setting with Brian and had a chat...naturally it's not possible for most of us to remember what we had for dinner last Tuesday let alone details of something four decades ago, but Bob obviously saw what he saw and heard what he heard and shared his experience with a few people. Is that different from someone clutching a stack of memorabilia and Beach Boy knick-knacks who asked Brian a question at an autograph cattle-call session and didn't get a straight answer from him? Obviously - apples and oranges, as I believe was the same case when we've seen some televised interviews where the information just isn't as free-flowing or a descriptive as we may have wanted it to be.

Trying to guess what or why Brian remembers things as he does is getting us *so far away* from the topics and the points that it doesn't seem as worthwhile to cast doubt on someone's description of Brian's memory as it would to focus on finding the answers with the channels we do have available, and those too often aren't being looked at close enough.

In my opinion. :)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 10, 2013, 05:34:25 PM
Not to get too far off topic but, I wonder who bought Durrie Park's acetates?  ;)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 10, 2013, 05:36:14 PM
I'm not directing this at anyone in particular: Sometimes the way a rollicking Smile discussion and exchange of theories and ideas gets sidetracked by questions about someone's validity-reliability-memory or whatever the case may be reminds me of an archaeologist searching for the lost buried treasure who complains about the poorly drawn map and the bad directions he got from his guide as he's standing directly over the exact spot where the treasure is buried.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: ash on March 10, 2013, 05:40:28 PM
Actually this has probably come up before but I am curious if anyone has any thoughts about considering what Heroes and Villains might have sounded like at particular stages. What might a fall Heroes have sounded like? How about a December version? January? February?
Someone  probably has done something along those lines before but let's get together and do it again.
FWIW here's my take on the evolution of Heroes. Sorry if it's an incoherent mess but you can blame Brian and the Columbia Studios tape filing system for that (and certainly not Oswald !)

1/  May 11th 1966 version - unknown quantity . Some talk of it including You Are My Sunshine although i think this came from Al Kooper (not known as a druggy so possibly more reliable than others but this was decades after the event) and he said something like he heard a version of Heroes which seemed to include interpolations of You Are My Sunshine. Could he mean one of the versions with the Bicycle Rider riff (gee dit dit heroes and villains etc.). Is the Bicycle Rider theme (G G Fsharp G D) similar or even technically an interpolation of My Only Sunshine (G Fsharp G D D) ? 2.45 long. This version could also theoretically have been the same as or similar to -

2/  October to December 13th - ish - I'm In Great Shape/Barnyard version. Possibly structured as per Cantina or at least similar. This is prime time Smile and i'd consider this version critical. Dec 13th is last known use of master 56727 (until june 67)

3/  December 19th - The missing tape recorded today uses the new master number 57020. WTF was recorded today i'd sure like to know. Features strings plus Hal and Bill Pittman. Is this the start of an entirely new version. Brian also records Dada on Dec 22nd possibly as part of this and is the Chimes Heroes part 3  recorded at this time ? Sure as hell doesn't seem to fit anywhere else Brian.
A number of vocal sessions ensue as the pressure mounts for Xmas and then January deadline. Of course these may have been additions to the Great Shape version. Additional work may have been carried out dec 27 and 28th or these could have been work for what i have labelled 4/... This doesn't give BW long to re-formulate the song though. Could the jan 3 comp reel be from late dec and jan 3rd ?

4/  Late December?  to January 3rd - we have the Jan 3rd comp reel (do a lot,bag of tricks,bridge to Indians,All Day (again !) etc.). Might this include the Bar room Brawl ? Jan 5th sees the overdub for Bicycle rider (in G minor as per Worms) labelled as part 2. Maybe this version was considered finished as no work is done for 3 weeks. There's a lot of material here - is this Vosse's 2 parts but not edited together version see also feb/march ? Of course BW may have needed time to rewrite hence the break from jan 5th to 27th.
    
Does anyone else suspect that bridge to Indians leads to Bicycle Rider  (jan 5th) OR that by the 3rd BW considered Heroes finished and moved on to other tracks   dubbing Worms (accidentally ????) logged as Heroes part 2 but actually Worms Part 2…..this is total speculation on my part but there is precedent--the Child verse remake logged as Cabin Essence for example), re-recording Wonderful on the 9th Jan etc.
Seemingly no action on "version 4" after the 3rd or 5th Jan save for the canned "experimental" session jan 20th marked do not use.

5/  January 27th 67 - The Cantina version (along with an all day section) which appears to be satisfactory at least for a few days. Master Jan 31st ? and then some slight revisions Feb 7th. Mike to Brian vocals ?? Last work poss the Cantina overdub feb 7th. Of course this might originally have featured a barroom brawl "in the cantina". Or it might not have. Anyway we have the / a Cantina version from here.

6/  February 15th (?)- BW records Prelude to Fade which indicates he has changed his mind  about the suitability of the Cantina version to some extent. He also records another Bicycle Rider variant (A flat minor to C sharp a more Heroes friendly key than the G minor recorded jan 5th) plus bits as heard on Smile Sessions on Feb 16th.

4 days later….

7/  Feb 20th -  Part 2 is revised (previously the Cantina). The Gee/dit dit heroes and villains  variations are recorded. They could go after the accapella verse to replace Cantina. This could be the long version ?? sessions continue (vocally) 21st,24th (BW only) and 26th.

8 ? /  Feb 27th - From here to march 2nd Brian records another Bicycle Rider bit (the Heroes single chorus track in E flat minor) , the intro (in F as per Iron Horse but ending on A flat 7th (listen to the organ)), fade and a new verse finishing on March 2nd. Of course these may have been a continuation and or revisions for the Feb Gee version but it's worth noting that no vocals (save Carl's scat singing on fade) are recorded as far as we know. This could also represent the Vosse Part 1 Part 2 "we knew what it was but it was not edited together" (paraphrase)  version.

Of course versions 6 to 8 could all be part of the same version with a few junked sections.

At this point Brian's 6 month bummer ends as he stops work on Heroes. Or did he have the version he wanted ?

9/  Finally the Smiley Smile version tracked as 56727 according to the Smile Sessions book but released as 57020. Alan Boyd MAY  have uncovered a slightly longer version of this during Smile Sessions . Am i right that he mentioned something like that ?  Could this have been the version Keith Altham heard that seemed about 6 minutes long. If you stick False Barnyard on the end (for example) and smoke a doobie it would certainly feel like it was 6  minutes long !


Anyway...
We have to remember that between versions BW must have had enough time to write and arrange the new sections. I think each time he went into the studio he had a definite plan. It might not have come off but there was a plan.

Also..
Verse 1,2,my children were raised and accapella verse appear to be common to all versions as far as we can tell though there's no direct evidence for my children or accapella  in version 1.  They certainly appear to be the non-variants during the Heroes saga. Where to go after verse 2 is the big problem hence all the Part 2's.

Is that clear ?
Over to you Brian.
oh and who exactly did buy those acetates and did Durrie find the videotapes she said she also had in storage ?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 10, 2013, 05:50:14 PM
GF, nothing like getting it from the horse's mouth, though. But I don't think Brian will divulge anymore information about Smile during his lifetime than what is already out there. I really don't. Somebody up the thread mentioned interviewing Al Jardine. Hell, he no more knows what Brian was intending to do with all those pieces and framents and takes than Marilyn Wilson! I witnessed Al first hand forgetting the words to Vegetables! I was standing there in 2004 at Brian's Smile concert in S.F listening to David Anderle and Frank Holmes and the most they talked about was Brian's humor and smoking a lot of hash. They couldn't remember sh*t about what segment of music went where in Smile. And if Van Dyke Parks knows something other than what's he's written about already, he sure ain't talkin'!



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 10, 2013, 05:59:36 PM
GF, nothing like getting it from the horse's mouth, though. But I don't think Brian will divulge anymore information about Smile during his lifetime than what is already out there. I really don't. Somebody up the thread mentioned interviewing Al Jardine. Hell, he no more knows what Brian was intending to do with all those pieces and framents and takes than Marilyn Wilson! I witnessed Al first hand forgetting the words to Vegetables! I was standing there in 2004 at Brian's Smile concert in S.F listening to David Anderle and Frank Holmes and the most they talked about was Brian's humor and smoking a lot of hash. They couldn't remember sh*t about what segment of music went where in Smile. And if Van Dyke Parks knows something other than what's he's written about already, he sure ain't talkin'!



I agree, Mikie, especially about Brian and most especially about trying to uncover a great secret from Al, who simply was not there as much as some other folks who are still alive...and who have talked! yet sometimes they get challenged or their dates get mixed up or whatever else is the trigger and their word gets impugned while we're twiddling our thumbs instead waiting for Al or Bruce to reveal some "Ark Of The Covenant"-like acetate which they're rumored to have...it's a crazy scene, this Smile stuff. ;D

I got the impression from a few previous interviews that there are still things which are known but simply not discussed, and I mean beyond song orders and what version of Heroes goes where kind of things...reference Van Dyke, Mark Volman, there are some things which are not said about Smile, at least in a published way.

Those things whatever they may be are what I think are the most maddening and fascinating parts.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 10, 2013, 06:05:05 PM
I'm not directing this at anyone in particular: Sometimes the way a rollicking Smile discussion and exchange of theories and ideas gets sidetracked by questions about someone's validity-reliability-memory or whatever the case may be reminds me of an archaeologist searching for the lost buried treasure who complains about the poorly drawn map and the bad directions he got from his guide as he's standing directly over the exact spot where the treasure is buried.

Not so sure it's sidetracking when you question a source of information. For example, do you question Badman's credibility? Or even someone who was there (Anderle, Vosse, Williams, Siegel). What/Who's information would you validate first - someone who was there or somebody who wasn't even born in the Smile era and was relaying info second hand? An author's interview with the source (or close to it) one of the group members, a musician, or engineer who witnessed it? It's been a long time. Memories fade and plays tricks on you. So does hash.  :)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 10, 2013, 06:14:45 PM

I agree, Mikie, especially about Brian and most especially about trying to uncover a great secret from Al, who simply was not there as much as some other folks who are still alive...and who have talked! yet sometimes they get challenged or their dates get mixed up or whatever else is the trigger and their word gets impugned while we're twiddling our thumbs instead waiting for Al or Bruce to reveal some "Ark Of The Covenant"-like acetate which they're rumored to have...it's a crazy scene, this Smile stuff. ;D

Bruce is another one. While Al remembers being embarrassed crawling on the floor making animal noises, Bruce wasn't around very much for the Smile sessions, was he? Most of what he knows he probably learned from someone else who was there. What did Bruce do, sing backgrounds on "Love To Say Dada" and "Wonderful"? What else. He sure didn't smoke dope with the key writers/players there. Was careful not to step in Banana's dog crap in the sandbox wearing his white tennis shoes, and the Indian tee-pee scared him. Hell, if I wore white shorts and V-neck sweaters and stood there waving and clapping along with the music, I'd be scared too....


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 10, 2013, 06:56:43 PM

I agree, Mikie, especially about Brian and most especially about trying to uncover a great secret from Al, who simply was not there as much as some other folks who are still alive...and who have talked! yet sometimes they get challenged or their dates get mixed up or whatever else is the trigger and their word gets impugned while we're twiddling our thumbs instead waiting for Al or Bruce to reveal some "Ark Of The Covenant"-like acetate which they're rumored to have...it's a crazy scene, this Smile stuff. ;D

Bruce is another one. While Al remembers being embarrassed crawling on the floor making animal noises, Bruce wasn't around very much for the Smile sessions, was he? Most of what he knows he probably learned from someone else who was there. What did Bruce do, sing backgrounds on "Love To Say Dada" and "Wonderful"? What else. He sure didn't smoke dope with the key writers/players there. Was careful not to step in Banana's dog crap in the sandbox wearing his white tennis shoes, and the Indian tee-pee scared him. Hell, if I wore white shorts and V-neck sweaters and stood there waving and clapping along with the music, I'd be scared too....

Bruce was definitely around and surely saw a lot. But will he really tell it like it is?  

Sure, on those rose-colored Smile video clips that appeared on youtube, Bruce is all, "Oh, such brilliant song bites" and "Teenage symphony to God? What a great concept" etc but here's the same man quoted in Mojo magazine circa 1995:

Quote
"There's tracks on the box set that represent not a great lost album but the worst times we ever went through. I listen to them and I don't feel any joy. [...]  Brian degraded us, made us lay down for hours and make barnyard noises, demoralized us, freaked out. I can't tell you a lot of it, it's really f***ed up. He thought it was hilarious, he was stoned and laughing. We hated him then because we didn't know what was happening to him."

He sure seemed pretty mad. So either Bruce has mellowed since then or he merely changed his tune since there was product to push. At any rate, he sure sounds like he has some very distinct memories of various sessions.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 10, 2013, 06:58:25 PM
Bruce wasn't made for these times....


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 10, 2013, 07:07:53 PM
Bruce, Al, and Mike's memories of Smile are incomprehensible to me.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: hypehat on March 10, 2013, 07:25:23 PM
Guitar fool and bgas, I am posting on my phone so I CBA to quote u.

Posting stories about exactly the kind of person Brian isnt wont help your argument. if he did display savant levels of memory, it wouldn't be news in 2013. If he did, Brian Wilson is simply an asshole.

But, Brian has been given plenty of opportunity to divulge 'the real meaning'. The 'holy grail'. Whatever. If there was a record to set straight, he has had plenty of opportunity to set it straight. Privately. Darian, van dyke in 03, Boyd and Linnett in 2011. Now, no one knows exactly what Brian said to Coach. He might have told him exactly how smile was supposed to go down and throw in the meaning of life as well. He might have just talked about the sandpit. Brian didn't finish smile for a reason - he had no grand overarching plan that would tie it up. It got away from him. He decided to make Smiley Smile instead.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 10, 2013, 07:29:13 PM
I haven't been able to make sense of it either, in light of those Youtube promotional webisodes for Smile Sessions. Not so much make sense of it, but maybe try to find a way in my mind to come to terms with the fact that the negativity - and it was not perceived negativity, or coming from a slanted viewpoint, or anything like that - but the fact that the negativity we had read and heard all but disappeared for the promotional material, after we had all read things like the Bruce interview and the Al interviews about crawling on the floor and all of it before.

Is it a sense of mea culpa in hindsight, where it's now "hey, yeah, you know this was all great stuff we were hearing" coming from something other than what they had said previously about those same sessions?

It's old news, it's kicking a dead horse, I realize all that, but still...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 10, 2013, 07:33:00 PM
Guitar fool and bgas, I am posting on my phone so I CBA to quote u.

Posting stories about exactly the kind of person Brian isnt wont help your argument. if he did display savant levels of memory, it wouldn't be news in 2013. If he did, Brian Wilson is simply an asshole.

But, Brian has been given plenty of opportunity to divulge 'the real meaning'. The 'holy grail'. Whatever. If there was a record to set straight, he has had plenty of opportunity to set it straight. Privately. Darian, van dyke in 03, Boyd and Linnett in 2011. Now, no one knows exactly what Brian said to Coach. He might have told him exactly how smile was supposed to go down and throw in the meaning of life as well. He might have just talked about the sandpit. Brian didn't finish smile for a reason - he had no grand overarching plan that would tie it up. It got away from him. He decided to make Smiley Smile instead.

Van Dyke Parks has been given the same opportunities to reveal certain things, so far: Are we challenging him to open up and reveal those things where he was not only witnessing it but was also an active participant, in studio and at the house?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 10, 2013, 07:39:48 PM
Let me also go out on a limb and add that one of the bigger misconceptions about Smile might be that Van Dyke only contributed his lyrics to the project.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 10, 2013, 07:40:51 PM
I haven't been able to make sense of it either, in light of those Youtube promotional webisodes for Smile Sessions. Not so much make sense of it, but maybe try to find a way in my mind to come to terms with the fact that the negativity - and it was not perceived negativity, or coming from a slanted viewpoint, or anything like that - but the fact that the negativity we had read and heard all but disappeared for the promotional material, after we had all read things like the Bruce interview and the Al interviews about crawling on the floor and all of it before.

Is it a sense of mea culpa in hindsight, where it's now "hey, yeah, you know this was all great stuff we were hearing" coming from something other than what they had said previously about those same sessions?

It's old news, it's kicking a dead horse, I realize all that, but still...

I'm sure it was a bit of both but different times called for different memories.

But you get little pieces from the guys over the years which are suggestive. I feel like Al was critical of both Heroes and Breakaway (could have just been the latter) about how Brian let the songs down, production-wise. While they might not have said this outright, but I do think the guys did resent Brian a bit for quite a while even though they may have thought as well that he was the greatest genius of all geniuses. But people like Al, Bruce, or Mike did know that Smile was more than just fragments and sound bytes.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 10, 2013, 07:44:53 PM
Guitar fool and bgas, I am posting on my phone so I CBA to quote u.

Posting stories about exactly the kind of person Brian isnt wont help your argument. if he did display savant levels of memory, it wouldn't be news in 2013. If he did, Brian Wilson is simply an asshole.

But, Brian has been given plenty of opportunity to divulge 'the real meaning'. The 'holy grail'. Whatever. If there was a record to set straight, he has had plenty of opportunity to set it straight. Privately. Darian, van dyke in 03, Boyd and Linnett in 2011. Now, no one knows exactly what Brian said to Coach. He might have told him exactly how smile was supposed to go down and throw in the meaning of life as well. He might have just talked about the sandpit. Brian didn't finish smile for a reason - he had no grand overarching plan that would tie it up. It got away from him. He decided to make Smiley Smile instead.

Van Dyke Parks has been given the same opportunities to reveal certain things, so far: Are we challenging him to open up and reveal those things where he was not only witnessing it but was also an active participant, in studio and at the house?

Here would be my questions though:

Can we ask him why he took a writing credit on Wind Chimes on BWPS despite the fact that it sure seems like he didn't write those lyrics and wasn't credited on Smiley and given that it was the first Smile track recorded sure makes it seem like it was probably a song that Brian had before he partnered up with VDP? Or why he denies writing He Gives Speeches despite the fact that it sure seems like his lyrics, and he did get a credit on She's Goin' Bald and the only reasonable (?) excuse has been that it's Brian doing his best VDP impression (???). Can we ask him if he has a great memory of the era, why he couldn't recall the lyrics he more than likely had written for Child is Father? Or the correct melody for Worms? (and probably Holidays).


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: The_Holy_Bee on March 10, 2013, 07:45:48 PM
Wow. The Durrie Parks acetates (he exclaims, very late to the party)! For Smile-heads of a certain vintage, that’s like discovering the Dead Sea Scrolls or... erm... Inside Pop reels.

I’m at once fascinated by the contents – particularly IIGS/Children Were Raised – and relieved, considering the box is already out and we don’t when and if we’ll ever get to hear them, that there aren’t, say, Child with verse vocals or full edits of an early Heroes on there. I’ve also been fascinated by the subsequent resurgence of the “Heroes” discussion, particularly the contributions of Guitarfool and Cam.

Both posters might remember a similar conversation in a thread I started in April or so last year (and no doubt dozens of others) – in it I put some weight on what I termed the “cannibalizing” of album track melodies in the later H&V sessions. Cam’s further observations on this here have been extremely interesting on this score, and “ring true” (how unscientific can you get?) for me at least on several counts.

My only reinterpretation of this would be that instead of a “teaser” for the record, “Part II” might have been a sort of goodbye – an attempt to get a few of the most evocative and appropriate Smile track themes out in some form before moving on.

Thanks to all contributors for a thoroughly bracing, thought-provoking – and civil! – thread. Here’s hoping a digital copy of the D.P.A.s to sneak out somehow.





Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 10, 2013, 07:57:14 PM


Can we ask him why he took a writing credit on Wind Chimes on BWPS despite the fact that it sure seems like he didn't write those lyrics and wasn't credited on Smiley and given that it was the first Smile track recorded sure makes it seem like it was probably a song that Brian had before he partnered up with VDP?

But then why is 'Wind Chimes' one of the Van Dyke Parks acetates for sale?  :hat



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 10, 2013, 08:01:44 PM


Can we ask him why he took a writing credit on Wind Chimes on BWPS despite the fact that it sure seems like he didn't write those lyrics and wasn't credited on Smiley and given that it was the first Smile track recorded sure makes it seem like it was probably a song that Brian had before he partnered up with VDP?

But then why is 'Wind Chimes' one of the Van Dyke Parks acetates for sale?  :hat



Ouch! Good question.

You can decide whether or not this is a good response, but I do think that Van Dyke had an interest in the album that extended beyond his lyrics - as witnessed by his very active role in the studio throughout the sessions. I'm sure he would have been eager to hear versions of songs for the album that were near-finished, whether he wrote the lyrics or not.

Any good???


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 10, 2013, 08:12:54 PM


Can we ask him why he took a writing credit on Wind Chimes on BWPS despite the fact that it sure seems like he didn't write those lyrics and wasn't credited on Smiley and given that it was the first Smile track recorded sure makes it seem like it was probably a song that Brian had before he partnered up with VDP?

But then why is 'Wind Chimes' one of the Van Dyke Parks acetates for sale?  :hat



Ouch! Good question.

You can decide whether or not this is a good response, but I do think that Van Dyke had an interest in the album that extended beyond his lyrics - as witnessed by his very active role in the studio throughout the sessions. I'm sure he would have been eager to hear versions of songs for the album that were near-finished, whether he wrote the lyrics or not.

Any good???



Let me also go out on a limb and add that one of the bigger misconceptions about Smile might be that Van Dyke only contributed his lyrics to the project.

 ;D


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 10, 2013, 08:14:18 PM
Yes. I didn't give you proper credit but I had your previous remarks in mind as well.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mikie on March 10, 2013, 08:14:34 PM
Sure, on those rose-colored Smile video clips that appeared on youtube, Bruce is all, "Oh, such brilliant song bites" and "Teenage symphony to God? What a great concept" etc but here's the same man quoted in Mojo magazine circa 1995:

Quote
"There's tracks on the box set that represent not a great lost album but the worst times we ever went through. I listen to them and I don't feel any joy. [...]  Brian degraded us, made us lay down for hours and make barnyard noises, demoralized us, freaked out. I can't tell you a lot of it, it's really f***ed up. He thought it was hilarious, he was stoned and laughing. We hated him then because we didn't know what was happening to him."

He sure seemed pretty mad. So either Bruce has mellowed since then or he merely changed his tune since there was product to push. At any rate, he sure sounds like he has some very distinct memories of various sessions.

Yeah, but how many? The one Smile session you quoted Bruce talking about was the same one that Al talked about in an interview 6 years later (Goldmine?) where he was embarrassed because Brian made him crawl on the floor making animal noises.

What else did Bruce do for his country?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 10, 2013, 08:33:26 PM
Sure, on those rose-colored Smile video clips that appeared on youtube, Bruce is all, "Oh, such brilliant song bites" and "Teenage symphony to God? What a great concept" etc but here's the same man quoted in Mojo magazine circa 1995:

Quote
"There's tracks on the box set that represent not a great lost album but the worst times we ever went through. I listen to them and I don't feel any joy. [...]  Brian degraded us, made us lay down for hours and make barnyard noises, demoralized us, freaked out. I can't tell you a lot of it, it's really f***ed up. He thought it was hilarious, he was stoned and laughing. We hated him then because we didn't know what was happening to him."

He sure seemed pretty mad. So either Bruce has mellowed since then or he merely changed his tune since there was product to push. At any rate, he sure sounds like he has some very distinct memories of various sessions.

Yeah, but how many? The one session you quoted Bruce talking about was the same one that Al talked about in an interview 6 years later (Goldmine?) where he was embarrassed because Brian made him crawl on the floor making animal noises.

I was going to say something very similar Mikie! 
I think in this case it's more likely Bruce was simply repeating what he's "heard" took place, rather than actually being there. Al is guilty of this alot, in that when asked he's often repeating the oft -told versions of events, not what he really remembers, if he even does remember. 
 If there is one BB other than Brian I would want to hear BBs history from,that would be Mike; presuming he could find it in himself to be truthful and not spout his negative  self serving vitriol. 


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: sweetdudejim on March 10, 2013, 09:18:09 PM
My only reinterpretation of this would be that instead of a “teaser” for the record, “Part II” might have been a sort of goodbye – an attempt to get a few of the most evocative and appropriate Smile track themes out in some form before moving on.

I don't think it was a goodbye though. Let's look. After putting aside "Heroes And Villains", he works on "Vega-Tables". And while working on that he does another version of "Wonderful" and at least that one little "Child Is Father Of The Man" section. I honestly don't think he knew what he was doing as far as the SMiLE material went.

I just don't know if Brian ever truly had a plan post-December 1966. People make it seem like after the "Love to Say Dada" session Brian decided to remake some of the material without using the previously recorded stuff. But he did use a bunch of SMiLE-era instrumentation for the officially released "Heroes And Villains" and even used a SMiLE-era portion of "Vega-Tables" for "Vegetables".

Anyways, I think this era was really fluid and I just wonder if Brian ever made an official decision to truly can SMiLE and to begin work on Smiley Smile or if it was more fluid than that. If it wasn't for Derek Taylor's announcement, I'd say it seems pretty fluid.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: AvanTodd on March 10, 2013, 10:58:14 PM


Can we ask him why he took a writing credit on Wind Chimes on BWPS despite the fact that it sure seems like he didn't write those lyrics and wasn't credited on Smiley and given that it was the first Smile track recorded sure makes it seem like it was probably a song that Brian had before he partnered up with VDP?

But then why is 'Wind Chimes' one of the Van Dyke Parks acetates for sale?  :hat



Ouch! Good question.

You can decide whether or not this is a good response, but I do think that Van Dyke had an interest in the album that extended beyond his lyrics - as witnessed by his very active role in the studio throughout the sessions. I'm sure he would have been eager to hear versions of songs for the album that were near-finished, whether he wrote the lyrics or not.

Any good???

VDP does claim authorship of Wind Chimes.  If I recall correctly, the lack of credit on the Smiley Smile version was one of the first things he addressed with Brian when returning to work on BWPS.  I believe he talked about it in Priore's second Smile book.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: The_Holy_Bee on March 10, 2013, 11:31:53 PM
EDIT: I screwed up in posting, but just to be clear the following is a quote from a post by sweetdudejim:

"I don't think it was a goodbye though. Let's look. After putting aside "Heroes And Villains", he works on "Vega-Tables". And while working on that he does another version of "Wonderful" and at least that one little "Child Is Father Of The Man" section. I honestly don't think he knew what he was doing as far as the SMiLE material went."

[/quote]

Good points there. I'm sure the conception of the thing was, at this stage, in immense and continuous flux (though I still stand by my hypothesis that earlier stages of recording saw an almost fully conceived record in production). Still, as other posters have argued, the earmarking of key (if revised) melodic sections such as "Bicycle Rider" and the "Barnyard Fade" for the single make their ongoing inclusion in an album seem unlikely (at least in their original forms) - unless as Cam suggests "H&V (part two)" was to serve as a kind of teaser for the re-thought record.

As I've argued before, there is practically no contemporary written, anecdotal or recorded evidence that anyone, let alone Brian, had repeating themes or re-use of sections/melodic ideas being in the framework at all until 1967 - which means it's just as likely that "H&V (part two)" was to be a conflated version of/substitute for the possibly problematic "Americana" aspect of the record as the idea that in re-recording them for "H&V", Brian intended any kind of overture/repeating motif structure for the album.

Two of the four other songs you mention, of course, do turn up on Smiley Smile in some form or another, so we can probably assume these two tracks represented paths of least resistance - compared to many of the other Nov/Dec songs.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Micha on March 11, 2013, 12:31:58 AM

I don't think it was a goodbye though. Let's look. After putting aside "Heroes And Villains", he works on "Vega-Tables". And while working on that he does another version of "Wonderful" and at least that one little "Child Is Father Of The Man" section.

I guess that CIFOTM section was meant for inclusion in V-T. There's smacking sounds at the end.

Why did he re-record the H&V fade when the re-record sounds just like the damn original (aside from Carl's scat)?



Maybe it was just a quick solution - need a fade to the b side. Just reconfigure the fade to the a side in a subtly different way. So A side has false barnyard fade and b side has the Carl scat version.

More than unlikely IMHO. At the same time Brian rerecorded the fade, he also rerecorded the verses. That would rather fit the story about Brian playing the song to a stranger from the street and then starting from scratch. Obviously, he used neither the new verses nor the new fade.

I don't think I've heard this story, what's it's source?

I don't remember the article, but I think I remember Chuck Britz told that story in 1967 contemplating the released version, like "it's ok now, but you should have heard it six months ago.."

Brian Wilson on the subject of "He Gives Speeches", 1966: "THIS IS GONNA BE SO GREAT I'M NOT KIDDING" (presumably followed with "srsly u guyz" after the fade on the TSS edit)
Brian Wilson on the subject of "He Gives Speeches", 2003: "Naw. Junk that flaming pile of sh*t."

Yeah, but he was on different medication in 1966... :wink

What precedent would Brian have for making a two-sided single?

What precedent is the for lyrics and music like DYLW?

Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

AMEN. People still keep searching for "THE" SMiLE seemingly buried somewhere in the recorded fragments. There isn't such a thing.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: The_Holy_Bee on March 11, 2013, 01:29:02 AM
EDIT: Have deleted link as Mediafire (reasonably enough) have identified the edit as copyright material.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Theydon Bois on March 11, 2013, 02:10:15 AM
i think this came from Al Kooper (not known as a druggy so possibly more reliable than others but this was decades after the event)

You should possibly read his autobiography!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on March 11, 2013, 02:44:25 AM
Just for larfs - another quick edit of the sequence of sections as described by Andy (if I read it right!) and hypothesized by the rest of us (mainly referring to Humble Harv demo). Not necessarily the right takes, in at least one major case inevitably, but all butt-edits and I think quite fun.

 http://www.mediafire.com/?6k5hkfpk8q34hgy

"PERMISSION  DENIED
"Heroes And Villains" by Beach Boys may be available for download from Amazon."


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: ash on March 11, 2013, 03:20:18 AM
i think this came from Al Kooper (not known as a druggy so possibly more reliable than others but this was decades after the event)

You should possibly read his autobiography!
I've been meaning to as he's worked or been involved with some of my favourite musicians.
I'll assume for now that he did inhale.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cabinessenceking on March 11, 2013, 04:16:45 AM
Actually this has probably come up before but I am curious if anyone has any thoughts about considering what Heroes and Villains might have sounded like at particular stages. What might a fall Heroes have sounded like? How about a December version? January? February?

I made an edit of what an early H&V might have sounded like. https://vimeo.com/51757254

Interesting ideas! Do we know for certain that DYLW only evolved into a seperate track later on? It would make sense for it to be an integral part of early concepts Brian had for H&V. Also the Fire intro? IK it's labelled H&V Intro both on the tape box and now later on TSS, but is it certain that this is a H&V fragment? It seems just so unattached from the rest of the H&V ideas Brian had. Did it later become Fire when Brian decided it wasn't going to be featured on H&V and proceeded to record the 2nd part of Fire?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cabinessenceking on March 11, 2013, 04:19:36 AM
Bruce, Al, and Mike's memories of Smile are incomprehensible to me.

Why wasn't Carl interviewed about it more? He was on several track recordings and on all the vocal ones. He was probably the person most connected to the overall project after Brian and VDP themselves.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: seltaeb1012002 on March 11, 2013, 05:40:15 AM
Jules Siegel was one who thought he might have gotten the whole album on acetate back in the day, but they had been lost/stolen. I'm thinking they probably got acetates from some of the comp tapes with some of the various tracks like the ones that still exist.

Thanks for the info. Makes sense, I'm sure it was a hoax. But how freakin wild would it be if somewhere there exists a bunch of vocal mixes we haven't heard before in a semi-completed format. Ahh, to dream.

Actually this has probably come up before but I am curious if anyone has any thoughts about considering what Heroes and Villains might have sounded like at particular stages. What might a fall Heroes have sounded like? How about a December version? January? February?

I made an edit of what an early H&V might have sounded like. https://vimeo.com/51757254

Interesting ideas! Do we know for certain that DYLW only evolved into a seperate track later on? It would make sense for it to be an integral part of early concepts Brian had for H&V. Also the Fire intro? IK it's labelled H&V Intro both on the tape box and now later on TSS, but is it certain that this is a H&V fragment? It seems just so unattached from the rest of the H&V ideas Brian had. Did it later become Fire when Brian decided it wasn't going to be featured on H&V and proceeded to record the 2nd part of Fire?

Thanks. I just based it off of one of Brian's early test mixes. The DYLW section is completely unrelated, sorry, I should've mentioned that. I do, however, like the "part 1 tag" as the end of Heroes..

Either way, it would've been a really weird single.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 11, 2013, 05:49:55 AM


Can we ask him why he took a writing credit on Wind Chimes on BWPS despite the fact that it sure seems like he didn't write those lyrics and wasn't credited on Smiley and given that it was the first Smile track recorded sure makes it seem like it was probably a song that Brian had before he partnered up with VDP?

But then why is 'Wind Chimes' one of the Van Dyke Parks acetates for sale?  :hat



Ouch! Good question.

You can decide whether or not this is a good response, but I do think that Van Dyke had an interest in the album that extended beyond his lyrics - as witnessed by his very active role in the studio throughout the sessions. I'm sure he would have been eager to hear versions of songs for the album that were near-finished, whether he wrote the lyrics or not.

Any good???

VDP does claim authorship of Wind Chimes.  If I recall correctly, the lack of credit on the Smiley Smile version was one of the first things he addressed with Brian when returning to work on BWPS.  I believe he talked about it in Priore's second Smile book.

Yeah, I know. Thing is, I am not prepared to believe that those are his lyrics regardless of whether or not he claimed authorship. Just as I'm not prepared to believe he didn't write the lyrics to He Gives Speeches even though he claims not to have written them. But whatever - not a belief I'm willing to die for either.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 11, 2013, 07:57:42 AM
AMEN. People still keep searching for "THE" SMiLE seemingly buried somewhere in the recorded fragments. There isn't such a thing.

That's stating the obvious. My earlier analogy about the archaeologist focusing on his map as he's standing on top of the very treasure he's been seeking without realizing it was that too often these searches and the efforts behind them may be focused in the wrong direction.

If we're looking for a greater understanding of Smile, or a more complete picture of what happened and why, there are some areas which are worth a closer look. If we're looking for a more complete Smile through the recorded fragments, perhaps some new finds may be interesting but ultimately they won't add up to much more than what we have. And it becomes a rehash of the same information.

All I'm saying is there are some fascinating areas to investigate from a new or different angle, and the more people who look at those brings more chances of someone seeing it just a little differently and perhaps deciphering one more part of the riddle.

Is this the thread to do that? Probably not. Too much gets lost and ignored.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on March 11, 2013, 07:59:41 AM
Is this the thread to do that? Probably not. Too much gets lost and ignored.

This is the best thread for months.  Really really appreciating the efforts of those with the knowledge.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 11, 2013, 08:07:57 AM
Is this the thread to do that? Probably not. Too much gets lost and ignored.

This is the best thread for months.  Really really appreciating the efforts of those with the knowledge.

I agree with that, it is an awesome thread, but at the same time do many have the time to backtrack through all the pages and read all the posts? What can happen is the same information posted on page 14 gets regurgitated and reworded on page 19 and the original points get ignored or lost in the shuffle.

Not that it's a bad thing, I'm just observing the repetition of ideas.  :)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 11, 2013, 08:17:27 AM
i think this came from Al Kooper (not known as a druggy so possibly more reliable than others but this was decades after the event)

You should possibly read his autobiography!
I've been meaning to as he's worked or been involved with some of my favourite musicians.
I'll assume for now that he did inhale.

Al Kooper is a big Pet Sounds/Smile fan, no confirmation needed but worth noting. I wouldn't doubt he's not laid his eyes on this board at various times, if he's not even a regular visitor in between his gigs.

When I saw the Smile live show in Boston, the pass we got came with a ticket...which I declined because I had already purchased a ticket and had traveled to the show from PA with another friend. So my Boston-based friend gave that ticket to one of his friends, and that complimentary ticket happened to be next to Al Kooper's seat. So they were sitting with Al Kooper in Boston watching the Smile concert. I don't regret passing up that seat, at all, but it was cool they got to sit with Al Kooper for that show, as he is an unabashed Smile and Brian fan. I would have enjoyed seeing his reaction at various points, as that show was one of the greatest if not the greatest musical experiences I've ever had. Even from the seats farther back... ;D


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 11, 2013, 08:49:40 AM
AMEN. People still keep searching for "THE" SMiLE seemingly buried somewhere in the recorded fragments. There isn't such a thing.

That's stating the obvious. My earlier analogy about the archaeologist focusing on his map as he's standing on top of the very treasure he's been seeking without realizing it was that too often these searches and the efforts behind them may be focused in the wrong direction.

If we're looking for a greater understanding of Smile, or a more complete picture of what happened and why, there are some areas which are worth a closer look. If we're looking for a more complete Smile through the recorded fragments, perhaps some new finds may be interesting but ultimately they won't add up to much more than what we have. And it becomes a rehash of the same information.

All I'm saying is there are some fascinating areas to investigate from a new or different angle, and the more people who look at those brings more chances of someone seeing it just a little differently and perhaps deciphering one more part of the riddle.


Agreed. There will always be a hole with Smile that cannot be completely filled up. This is why it is interesting to consider (indeed even just guess at) what Brian's thought process may have been at particular points in the journey. I don't think as a poster noted above that there was never a plan for anything and it was all carefree. There may not have been an overall plan and certain things were probably in consistent flux, but I do firmly believe that when Brian had the guys standing around the microphone singing "dit dit dit heroes and-a villains" that he did have an idea in his head as to what he was going to do with it. And I do think that through discussion and investigation we may get a clearer idea as to what that was.

Another thing that confuses me is He Gives Speeches. It is a fragment but a fragment from a time when Brian wasn't really recording random fragments. By that point he had recorded Wind Chimes, Look, Wonderful, and was about to do Holidays. Wind Chimes was a song of fragments but they were pretty much recorded together and it was fairly certain where things were going to go. Off the top of my head, Holidays and Look may have been recorded in sections but are not quite songs with parts in the same way that other Smile-era songs are. Wonderful meanwhile is a complete track. It seems to me that He Gives Speeches would make more sense if it were recorded in January but it wasn't. So I do really wonder what's going through Brian's head on that one, especially since this is a period of the sessions where he really has it together and is going full steam.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 11, 2013, 08:58:38 AM
Is this the thread to do that? Probably not. Too much gets lost and ignored.

This is the best thread for months.  Really really appreciating the efforts of those with the knowledge.

I agree with that, it is an awesome thread, but at the same time do many have the time to backtrack through all the pages and read all the posts? What can happen is the same information posted on page 14 gets regurgitated and reworded on page 19 and the original points get ignored or lost in the shuffle.

Not that it's a bad thing, I'm just observing the repetition of ideas.  :)

Thing is tho, where can it be discussed?  While I'm not going to add much to the discussion, I agree it's great to read/follow;
   Still:  every thread, it seems,gets waylaid/sidetracked with extraneous postings.
The only way around this ( to my mind) is constant monitoring/excising of those posts, or self control by everyone. Neither of which will happen
  Still, it's really great reading what folks are saying, even though alot of it is more than I can grasp; I just can't get into listening to the bits time and again.  Never have

 Now which thrift store has Siegel's acetate buried at the bottom of a pile?  (Or is it in the Scranton landfill with the 400,000 Smile booklets?)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: ash on March 11, 2013, 09:02:54 AM
Actually this has probably come up before but I am curious if anyone has any thoughts about considering what Heroes and Villains might have sounded like at particular stages. What might a fall Heroes have sounded like? How about a December version? January? February?

I made an edit of what an early H&V might have sounded like. https://vimeo.com/51757254

Interesting ideas! Do we know for certain that DYLW only evolved into a seperate track later on? It would make sense for it to be an integral part of early concepts Brian had for H&V. Also the Fire intro? IK it's labelled H&V Intro both on the tape box and now later on TSS, but is it certain that this is a H&V fragment? It seems just so unattached from the rest of the H&V ideas Brian had. Did it later become Fire when Brian decided it wasn't going to be featured on H&V and proceeded to record the 2nd part of Fire?

What is listed as Heroes intro organ waltz is in F but the organ moves to Aflat7 at the end which lines it up well for heroes (C sharp). This Aflat7 is buried/mixed out under the whistles on the "finished" take. It has nothing to do with Fire except on Linnetts mixes and BWPS. There is also the Chimes intro recorded earlier (in Emajor ?) which is a similar piece so it was probably an idea BW was enthused with more than once. Problem is there is no apparent way of getting to or from E major with the pieces we know. Maybe the tape runs slow/fast by a semitone ?? As mentioned in my previous post about Heroes versions (p.18 ?) the Dec 19th session might have helped us work this one out but the tape is missing if the session actually took place at all.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 11, 2013, 09:27:09 AM
AMEN. People still keep searching for "THE" SMiLE seemingly buried somewhere in the recorded fragments. There isn't such a thing.

That's stating the obvious. My earlier analogy about the archaeologist focusing on his map as he's standing on top of the very treasure he's been seeking without realizing it was that too often these searches and the efforts behind them may be focused in the wrong direction.

If we're looking for a greater understanding of Smile, or a more complete picture of what happened and why, there are some areas which are worth a closer look. If we're looking for a more complete Smile through the recorded fragments, perhaps some new finds may be interesting but ultimately they won't add up to much more than what we have. And it becomes a rehash of the same information.

All I'm saying is there are some fascinating areas to investigate from a new or different angle, and the more people who look at those brings more chances of someone seeing it just a little differently and perhaps deciphering one more part of the riddle.


Agreed. There will always be a hole with Smile that cannot be completely filled up. This is why it is interesting to consider (indeed even just guess at) what Brian's thought process may have been at particular points in the journey. I don't think as a poster noted above that there was never a plan for anything and it was all carefree. There may not have been an overall plan and certain things were probably in consistent flux, but I do firmly believe that when Brian had the guys standing around the microphone singing "dit dit dit heroes and-a villains" that he did have an idea in his head as to what he was going to do with it. And I do think that through discussion and investigation we may get a clearer idea as to what that was.

Another thing that confuses me is He Gives Speeches. It is a fragment but a fragment from a time when Brian wasn't really recording random fragments. By that point he had recorded Wind Chimes, Look, Wonderful, and was about to do Holidays. Wind Chimes was a song of fragments but they were pretty much recorded together and it was fairly certain where things were going to go. Off the top of my head, Holidays and Look may have been recorded in sections but are not quite songs with parts in the same way that other Smile-era songs are. Wonderful meanwhile is a complete track. It seems to me that He Gives Speeches would make more sense if it were recorded in January but it wasn't. So I do really wonder what's going through Brian's head on that one, especially since this is a period of the sessions where he really has it together and is going full steam.

Good points. To expand that train of thought around "Speeches", I've been puzzled by the sidetrack sessions which were done in both January and around March/April, at those times when Brian was seemingly trying to complete various parts of Smile, specifically focusing on Heroes (Jan-Feb 67) and Vegetables (April).

If the focus were on getting the various bits and pieces recorded and readied to help complete the missing parts, or whatever the case may be, why would they devote studio time and booking musicians for Jasper Daily, Dennis, and Carl? These side projects had nothing to do with Smile proper - as far as we know. And from what we can hear, they were not connected with anything musical or thematic with the Smile project.

Consider January 67 - Good Vibrations had been #1 worldwide for the weeks just preceding the new year, the buzz around the band and that single was strong, and a follow-up was anticipated. So naturally it would appear many of the immediate sessions at that time were for something related to Heroes, if not cleaning up the other album tracks from the fall.

Why would they break that stride, if not change the focus, by working on tracks in the studio that would have no relevance to the project at hand?

If we look at the Pet Sounds timeline, does it not look like nearly everything Brian did in the studio was centered around work on that album? There was a focus, there was a goal, the sessions reflected that. We don't see Brian working on "Here Today" one day then calling in Jasper to sing a few novelty songs the next, or having Carl or Dennis test their production skills on musical sketches. The work on the album was the goal.

Now we go to early 67, the focus seems to have been scattered, which lines up with what those like Anderle have said about the Smile process in general.

If studio time and access was an issue as reported, why book half dozen or more sessions with AFM musicians for songs that would seem to have no connection to the immediate goal of getting a single released and assembling a full album? And those are songs/sessions which ultimately led nowhere productive.

It reminds me of the "Speeches" issue: How and where does it all fit? And it suggests too that the focus wasn't as sharp as maybe it needed to be, even though Heroes was given extensive work in early '67.

At least in Fall '66, even with the spoken word sessions, we can connect the concepts or ideas if not the content itself to something designated for Smile. Not so with the side projects when getting a single and album finished was the immediate goal.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 11, 2013, 09:47:04 AM
Early '67 coincides with the time they were planning to sue Capitol, break their contract and start their own label and film company. With all due respect to Anderle's observation hadn't Brian previously pretty much always had outside productions going on since almost the start of the group?

Has anyone sorted out the keys of all of the H&V and H&V Part II bits?

We probably should move this to a new thread? I had an H&V Part II: "electric boogaloo" one a year or so ago. Ash has one too I think he said.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 11, 2013, 10:00:35 AM
While I know there's no getting to the bottom of SMiLE, I DO wish that somehow, SOMEONE, could sit Brian down at some sort of roundtable discussion with people like Al Kooper, David Crosby, Van Dyke, Danny Hutton, Michael Vosse and ANYONE else who could add to the discussion, etc...with all of the H&V pieces ready in chronological session order, so you could play a piece, and then discuss what he was conceiving about the song at that point.

While this is just a RIDICULOUS idea that could never happen, I do believe we would find out some things about the ever changing structure of H&V that we have not yet heard.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bicyclerider on March 11, 2013, 11:51:19 AM
As far as Al, Bruce's negative recollections of Smile - it appears to me that has to do with Brian's behavior and dominating personality along with his simultaneous indecision and erratic mood swings.  The fact they were working on fragments and having no understanding of the big picture, which was itself becoming increasingly blurry for Brian.  It's understandable that they can admire and praise the music now but have bad memories of when it was created - Brian has said exactly that himself.  It's the first time Brian's eccentricities and bizarre behavior spill so much into the studio, although this was really an extension of what had happened with Good Vibrations but most of those were instrumental sessions.

He Gives Speeches is correctly observed to be anomalous at that point - the other songs, although worked on in sections- Look, Child for example - had all the sections recorded at one session, and then edited together.  He did then rerecord some sections in the GV mode, but at each session a track was completed.  Speeches clearly seems like a fragment and is either a section intended for another song already recorded - in the early days many thought it was to be part of Wonderul - or it was the first example of what Brian's new modus operandi was to be with Heroes, Surf's Up, Vegetables, etc.

I agree Van Dyke, although he gives all the musical credit to Brian, was much more instrumental (no pun intended) in developing the overall concept and "plan" for Smile.  That's why when Van says he knew nothing of movements in 1967, I believe no movements were planned then.  He was the words and big ideas guy, but he had to work those ideas into an ever more mercurial and erratic Brian.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bicyclerider on March 11, 2013, 01:07:59 PM
Also, I don't see the Carl and Dennis sessions as breaking stride or slowing down Smile.  Brian's recording schedule was intermittent and I don't believe Brian participated in Carl or Dennis's sessions.  Brian, focussed on the singles, may have hoped the other band members might be able to contribute to the album and it might get finished that much quicker.  The Jasper Daily sessions are something else though, probably a symptom of Brian's drug induced ADD and used as a welcome respite from the pressures of trying to achieve perfection with Smile in the studio.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 12, 2013, 05:16:35 AM
Has anyone who is able worked out the keys of the individual H&V sections as they are on TSS? Thanks.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: hypehat on March 12, 2013, 05:21:53 AM
This help?

   "Heroes and Villains: Verse (Master Take)"     (10/20/66)   0:57 - C#
4.   "Heroes and Villains: Barnyard (Master Take)"     (10/20/66)   1:12  -G#
5.   "Heroes and Villains: I'm in Great Shape"     (10/27/66)   4:59 - G#?
6.   ""Heroes and Villains: Intro (Early Version)"     (12/??/66)   0:35 - E
7.   "Heroes and Villains: Do a Lot"     (01/03/67)   0:53 - E
8.   "Heroes and Villains: Bag of Tricks"     (01/03/67)   2:58 I think it's C#, but kinda freeform so hard for me to tell
9.   "Heroes and Villains: Mission Pak"     (01/03/67)   0:55 - G#
10.   "Heroes and Villains: Bridge to Indians"     (01/03/67)   1:47 - C#
11.   "Heroes and Villains: Part 1 Tag"     (01/03/67)   1:19 - C#
12.   "Heroes and Villains: Pickup to 3rd Verse"     (01/03/67)   0:55 - C#
13.   "Heroes and Villains: Children Were Raised"     (01/27/67)   2:07 - C#
14.   "Heroes and Villains: Part 2 (Cantina track)"     (01/27/67)   1:21 - C#
15.   "Heroes and Villains: Whistling Bridge"     (01/27/67)   1:14 - C#
16.   "Heroes and Villains: Cantina"     (01/27/67)   1:36 - C#
17.   "Heroes and Villains: All Day"     (01/27/67)   2:19 - C#, I think - Dada is in C, but this appears to be a semitone up?
18.   "Heroes and Villains: Verse Edit Experiment"     (01/27/67)   0:48 - C#
19.   "Heroes and Villains: Prelude to Fade"     (02/15/67)   3:43 C#
20.   "Heroes and Villains: Piano Theme"     (02/15/67)   2:43 - G#
21.   "Heroes and Villains: Part 2"     (02/20/67)   2:31 - Eb
22.   "Heroes and Villains: Part 2 (Gee) (Master Take)"  - Eb
23.   "Heroes and Villains: Part 2 Revised"     (02/20/67)   1:54 - Eb
24.   "Heroes and Villains: Part 2 Revised (Master Take)"  - Eb
25.   "Heroes and Villains: Part 3 (Animals) (Master Take)" - Eb
26.   "Heroes and Villains: Part 4"     (02/20/67)   2:36 - Eb
27.   "Heroes and Villains: Part Two (Master Take)"  - Ebm
28.   "Heroes and Villains: Fade"  - G#
29.   "Heroes and Villains: Verse Remake"     - C#
30.   "Heroes and Villains: Organ Waltz/Intro"  - F (I think?)
31.   "Heroes and Villains: Chorus Vocals"     - Ebm
32.   "Heroes and Villains: Barbershop"  - C#
33.   "Heroes and Villains: Children Were Raised (Remake)" (and the subsequent Children were Raised bits)  - C#


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cam Mott on March 12, 2013, 05:54:18 AM
Wow, well done.

Now what does it mean? Just kidding..... kind of. Anything about the keys of bits for H&V #57020 v. bits for H&V Part II #57045 jump out at anybody for any reason? The "verse remake", what is the key Brian intends to change it to according to his demo on the tape?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Cabinessenceking on March 12, 2013, 05:56:26 AM
AMEN. People still keep searching for "THE" SMiLE seemingly buried somewhere in the recorded fragments. There isn't such a thing.

That's stating the obvious. My earlier analogy about the archaeologist focusing on his map as he's standing on top of the very treasure he's been seeking without realizing it was that too often these searches and the efforts behind them may be focused in the wrong direction.

If we're looking for a greater understanding of Smile, or a more complete picture of what happened and why, there are some areas which are worth a closer look. If we're looking for a more complete Smile through the recorded fragments, perhaps some new finds may be interesting but ultimately they won't add up to much more than what we have. And it becomes a rehash of the same information.

All I'm saying is there are some fascinating areas to investigate from a new or different angle, and the more people who look at those brings more chances of someone seeing it just a little differently and perhaps deciphering one more part of the riddle.


Agreed. There will always be a hole with Smile that cannot be completely filled up. This is why it is interesting to consider (indeed even just guess at) what Brian's thought process may have been at particular points in the journey. I don't think as a poster noted above that there was never a plan for anything and it was all carefree. There may not have been an overall plan and certain things were probably in consistent flux, but I do firmly believe that when Brian had the guys standing around the microphone singing "dit dit dit heroes and-a villains" that he did have an idea in his head as to what he was going to do with it. And I do think that through discussion and investigation we may get a clearer idea as to what that was.

Another thing that confuses me is He Gives Speeches. It is a fragment but a fragment from a time when Brian wasn't really recording random fragments. By that point he had recorded Wind Chimes, Look, Wonderful, and was about to do Holidays. Wind Chimes was a song of fragments but they were pretty much recorded together and it was fairly certain where things were going to go. Off the top of my head, Holidays and Look may have been recorded in sections but are not quite songs with parts in the same way that other Smile-era songs are. Wonderful meanwhile is a complete track. It seems to me that He Gives Speeches would make more sense if it were recorded in January but it wasn't. So I do really wonder what's going through Brian's head on that one, especially since this is a period of the sessions where he really has it together and is going full steam.

He was still considering putting 'comedy' into the album at this point and I guess this tune was one if the tunes he came up with and had it hastily recorded in order to get it out of the way.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: hypehat on March 12, 2013, 06:17:53 AM
Wow, well done.

Now what does it mean? Just kidding..... kind of. Anything about the keys of bits for H&V #57020 v. bits for H&V Part II #57045 jump out at anybody for any reason? The "verse remake", what is the key Brian intends to change it to according to his demo on the tape?

No worries!
Yeah, I started by looking at 'Part Two' on the 45 that came with the box.... all the chants are in Eb! Most of them seem to switcheroo at the end so they finish on a C#, which is why, say, Gee works at the start of the TSS album sequence.

As for the Verse Remake... he instructs Chuck to record in C# (which they subsequently play in), then I think says he'll speed it up to E? Which is a REALLY odd idea. It's either they record in C# to know how fast to play in E (he says that a lot, then seems to get wound up in the arrangement with the cello player for the rest of the tape), but the end game appears to be recording quickly in E to slow down to C#, but they never got round to that? Also, why would you do that?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 12, 2013, 07:53:50 AM
As for the Verse Remake... he instructs Chuck to record in C# (which they subsequently play in), then I think says he'll speed it up to E? Which is a REALLY odd idea. It's either they record in C# to know how fast to play in E (he says that a lot, then seems to get wound up in the arrangement with the cello player for the rest of the tape), but the end game appears to be recording quickly in E to slow down to C#, but they never got round to that? Also, why would you do that?

The main reason I can think of beyond matching keys to fit into the whole sequencing thing would be to accommodate someone's vocal range. If Brian or Carl or Al or whoever had a specific range where their voice broke on either a high or a low note, or if their sweet spot in their voice was in C#, let's say, and they could really nail a high note in a strong voice, they'd track the song in that key and lay the vocals on top. But if Brian was looking to match keys to other sections, he could use the oscillator to vari-speed the tape and pitch it up a minor 3rd to E...a key where perhaps the sections he wanted to join it with were in. So the vocals could be sung in a lower key, then sped up to match wherever it was going to be placed.

That is just a pure guess: The Beatles would similarly vari-speed tracks - playing the live tracks either slower or faster then slowing down or speeding up the tape - for purely textural reasons because they liked how it affected the overall sound and the way the texture of the sounds themselves would change when played back at different speeds on tape. She Said She Said and Rain are two examples of this.

When I did the key analysis of the proposed Smile tracks years ago, it was interesting to see how you could group the album almost into two specific sides by matching the compatible keys of songs with the other songs, as demonstrated above with much of Heroes being in C# or a close related key. That post is still on this board somewhere, I know I reposted it about a year ago but don't know where.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 12, 2013, 08:56:16 AM
As for the Verse Remake... he instructs Chuck to record in C# (which they subsequently play in), then I think says he'll speed it up to E? Which is a REALLY odd idea. It's either they record in C# to know how fast to play in E (he says that a lot, then seems to get wound up in the arrangement with the cello player for the rest of the tape), but the end game appears to be recording quickly in E to slow down to C#, but they never got round to that? Also, why would you do that?

What I think Brian is up to here is, he wants Chuck to record them in C# at the tempo Brian wants for the verses, then speed the tape up to the key of E, so that the musicians will know what tempo to play at in the key of E, so that when you slow it down, it will be in C# at the tempo Brian originally wanted to begin with. What I think is happening is, Brian has fallen in love with the sound of the Vari-Speed recording techniques that he heard on "Strawberry Fields Forever" (Released on February 13, 1967 in the US) and wants to do something similar on this H&V tracking date, 15 days later on March 1, 1967. I think the story Michale Vosse tell's in the documentary "Beautiful Dreamer" about him and Brian hearing "Strawberry Fields Forever" on the car radio, and the effect it had on Brian, lends some weight to this idea. 

For those of you who are not musicians, what Vari-Speed recording does is change the timber and texture of recorded sounds, in a way that is different to using standard studio recording console EQ. That's why Chuck Britz tell's Brian "It might make it loud, depending on the instrumentation"

Though this idea didn't reach fruition for the H&V verse tracking re-record, Brian did use it later on the Smiley Smile LP track "She's Goin' Bald".

I think this answers the questions Bubba-Ho-Tep asked earlier:
What about the verse remake?

Why is he starting over?

And then why does he go back and use the original verse for the finished single?

And I think it shows Brian still feeling competitive at this point rather than losing focus, as expressed by Bicyclerider earlier:
For me the rerecording of the verse and fade were attempts to redo the a side of the Heroes single.  It shows how Brian was losing focus and his judgment was impaired - I don't think anyone would consider the verse or fade remakes superior to the originals.  He's making progress on the b side and then decides to scrap the a side?  Indecision, lack of confidence, inability to complete anything - Smile was self destructing and Brian was in meltdown.

As far as the H&V Fade re-record goes:

Why are we calling it a re-record, when it's technically the first time that this section is recorded as the H&V Fade?

He did originally record a section almost identical on November 14, 1966, but that was technically called "Part 2" of "My Only Sunshine".

I think Brian is recording the H&V Fade on February 28, 1967, because he really liked the sound and feel of "My Only Sunshine, Part 2" as the Fade for the "Cantina" version he mixed down on February 10, 1967, but didn't want to cripple "My Only Sunshine" in order to use it. I think this shows that SMiLE is still on the table at this point.

ALL OF THE ABOVE IMHO


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 12, 2013, 09:22:01 AM
As for the Verse Remake... he instructs Chuck to record in C# (which they subsequently play in), then I think says he'll speed it up to E? Which is a REALLY odd idea. It's either they record in C# to know how fast to play in E (he says that a lot, then seems to get wound up in the arrangement with the cello player for the rest of the tape), but the end game appears to be recording quickly in E to slow down to C#, but they never got round to that? Also, why would you do that?

What I think Brian is up to here is, he wants Chuck to record them in C# at the tempo Brian wants for the verses, then speed the tape up to the key of E, so that the musicians will know what tempo to play at in the key of E, so that when you slow it down, it will be in C# at the tempo Brian originally wanted to begin with. What I think is happening is, Brian has fallen in love with the sound of the Vari-Speed recording techniques that he heard on "Strawberry Fields Forever" (Released on February 13, 1967 in the US) and wants to do something similar on this H&V tracking date, 15 days later on March 1, 1967. I think the story Michale Vosse tell's in the documentary "Beautiful Dreamer" about him and Brian hearing "Strawberry Fields Forever" on the car radio, and the effect it had on Brian, lends some weight to this idea.  

For those of you who are not musicians, what Vari-Speed recording does is change the timber and texture of recorded sounds, in a way that is different to using standard studio recording console EQ. That's why Chuck Britz tell's Brian "It might make it loud, depending on the instrumentation"

Though this idea didn't reach fruition for the H&V verse tracking re-record, Brian did use it later on the Smiley Smile LP track "She's Goin' Bald".

I'd argue no one hearing the Strawberry Fields single new on the radio in 1967 knew or would know it had been vari-speeded, including Brian. There are no obvious clues or sections to pick up on it, if you listen without knowing what we know now about the mixing. Emerick did that gradual speed-up of the slow section to match the keys so well and so seamlessly, and the edit going into the "fast" section was unknown to the majority of listeners for quite some time, even Lennon didn't spot it during the playbacks and it was his own song.

The "She's Goin Bald" case is a little different - yes it's a form of vari-speeding tape but with that machine they were able to change speed/pitch without affecting the time/length of the track, which was the breakthrough in that technology. If they had an Eltro for the Heroes sessions with Chuck, Brian's request would have been handled a bit different since he could change the pitch to anything he wanted without having to adjust the original tempo or whatever (the bit he says about playing it fast...), provided the machine didn't crap out.

So the theory about vocal pitching isn't a possibility? because Brian had sung at least one lead this way, slowing the backing track down to cut his lead vocal then speeding it back up for mixdown. Not to mention Caroline No which i think may have been also sped up to really bring out the emotion of his high notes in the hook as much as affect overall texture by changing the key.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 12, 2013, 09:24:26 AM
I think Brian is recording the H&V Fade on February 28, 1967, because he really liked the sound and feel of "My Only Sunshine, Part 2" as the Fade for the "Cantina" version he mixed down on February 10, 1967, but didn't want to cripple "My Only Sunshine" in order to use it. I think this shows that SMiLE is still on the table at this point.

ALL OF THE ABOVE IMHO

But then why is every version of OMP/Sunshine that we've heard prior to box set is one with that part 2 piece missing?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 12, 2013, 09:43:04 AM
To dig a little deeper into the possible origins of Brian using vari-speed tape techniques on his records, please take a minute to watch this video I made on YouTube. It's only a minute long, the music kicks in at around 12 seconds:

Direct link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XmdQ0jc6rQg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XmdQ0jc6rQg)

The true father/pioneer of using vari-speed on hit records was Les Paul, and he was doing it in the 1940's. Watch and listen to the video, the Les Paul track is vari-speeded all over, not just the overall mix but also the individual guitar tracks. I know because I had to learn the solo for an audition, found out it was vari-speeded and then knew why it was impossible to play along with the recording since Les used several open-string runs not possible on a regular guitar. So I borrowed a Tascam PortaStudio 4-track cassette machine back in the day and slowed it down to get the original key he played in.

I hear a connection. Please take a listen!  :)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: hypehat on March 12, 2013, 10:07:14 AM
As for the Verse Remake... he instructs Chuck to record in C# (which they subsequently play in), then I think says he'll speed it up to E? Which is a REALLY odd idea. It's either they record in C# to know how fast to play in E (he says that a lot, then seems to get wound up in the arrangement with the cello player for the rest of the tape), but the end game appears to be recording quickly in E to slow down to C#, but they never got round to that? Also, why would you do that?

The main reason I can think of beyond matching keys to fit into the whole sequencing thing would be to accommodate someone's vocal range. If Brian or Carl or Al or whoever had a specific range where their voice broke on either a high or a low note, or if their sweet spot in their voice was in C#, let's say, and they could really nail a high note in a strong voice, they'd track the song in that key and lay the vocals on top. But if Brian was looking to match keys to other sections, he could use the oscillator to vari-speed the tape and pitch it up a minor 3rd to E...a key where perhaps the sections he wanted to join it with were in. So the vocals could be sung in a lower key, then sped up to match wherever it was going to be placed.


That it's a re-record of something that The Beach Boys had already sung on, in the key of C#, is the thing. There's no vocal reason why making it higher would make it somehow easier for someone to hit a note....

There's also nothing really there for it to be linked to in the key of E - Do A Lot? One of the early intro bits?

That session appears to have him playing in C#, at the normal tempo, in order to speed it up to E so they know how fast to play in E. So they were going toplay it in E, then slow that back down to C#. So maybe it's not a vocal reason, but Brian just wants it to sound even thicker.

RE: The Strawberry Fields question, the edit is kinda infamous now, but I wonder how easy it would be to hear on the radio or on a 45 on 1967 equipment. And there's no indication he would have known it was varispeeded apart from a vague guess or a hunch, as it wasn't common knowledge upon it's release, I'd wager.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 12, 2013, 10:54:37 AM
To guitarfool2002:
I want to let you know that I was responding to hypehat's post, and didn't have the benefit of seeing your post before I posted mine.

After reading yours, I think I agree with you on this. I was about to respond with some info on Les Paul, but you beat me to it!  :)

To Bubba-Ho-Tep:
Was the version of OMP/YAMS/FADE from the comp tape before or after the February 10 Cantina mix of H&V?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 12, 2013, 11:11:42 AM
RE: The Strawberry Fields question, the edit is kinda infamous now, but I wonder how easy it would be to hear on the radio or on a 45 on 1967 equipment. And there's no indication he would have known it was varispeeded apart from a vague guess or a hunch, as it wasn't common knowledge upon it's release, I'd wager.


I'd argue no one hearing the Strawberry Fields single new on the radio in 1967 knew or would know it had been vari-speeded, including Brian. There are no obvious clues or sections to pick up on it, if you listen without knowing what we know now about the mixing. Emerick did that gradual speed-up of the slow section to match the keys so well and so seamlessly, and the edit going into the "fast" section was unknown to the majority of listeners for quite some time, even Lennon didn't spot it during the playbacks and it was his own song.

That's just the thing, I don't know who would have picked up on the edit at all especially on AM radio or on a 45rpm or whatever in mid 1967. Don't forget the song existed only as a 45rpm single in the US until it was tacked onto the Magical Mystery Tour album by Capitol, later in the year '67 and well after Smile was done.

It wasn't really common knowledge to the general fans as far as I know for years, you're right, or maybe no one was looking for it. The first time I knew exactly where the edit was came after reading the Lewisohn sessions book.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on March 12, 2013, 11:14:05 AM
The first time I knew exactly where the edit was came after reading the Lewisohn sessions book.

Same. It's really an excellent bit of writing when he says look out at your own peril because you'll never hear the song the same way again. He's entirely correct.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 12, 2013, 11:16:27 AM
To guitarfool2002:
I want to let you know that I was responding to hypehat's post, and didn't have the benefit of seeing your post before I posted mine.

After reading yours, I think I agree with you on this. I was about to respond with some info on Les Paul, but you beat me to it!  :)

 :)  With Les Paul we were thinking along the same lines! Even today you hear a record like "Lover" from 47 or 48 and it sounds like it came from Mars or something. The video I posted was only one great example of things familiar from Brian's music that can be found on the Les Paul records of the 40's and 50's. Musically, production, vocal harmony stacking and overdubbing styles, there are a lot of connections. Whether Brian admits Les was a direct influence or not on his productions, it's impossible not to notice (hear) the similarities on bits like the Heroes/How High The Moon a-b comparison.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: guitarfool2002 on March 12, 2013, 11:18:27 AM
The first time I knew exactly where the edit was came after reading the Lewisohn sessions book.

Same. It's really an excellent bit of writing when he says look out at your own peril because you'll never hear the song the same way again. He's entirely correct.

Yes indeed, and it's similar to watching a magician and either wanting to know how he did the trick or enjoying the trick on the surface. Because once you know how it is done, the magic is gone.  :)  He was absolutely right about the the song.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: bgas on March 12, 2013, 01:08:35 PM


 :)  With Les Paul we were thinking along the same lines! Even today you hear a record like "Lover" from 47 or 48 and it sounds like it came from Mars or something. The video I posted was only one great example of things familiar from Brian's music that can be found on the Les Paul records of the 40's and 50's. Musically, production, vocal harmony stacking and overdubbing styles, there are a lot of connections. Whether Brian admits Les was a direct influence or not on his productions, it's impossible not to notice (hear) the similarities on bits like the Heroes/How High The Moon a-b comparison.

This explains why I liked Les Paul and collected his recordings; it was Subconscious!!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 12, 2013, 01:42:17 PM
I'm somewhat out of the loop with this thread so apologies if this has already been covered:

There's a Brian edit of the part two sections that iirc runs from gee through several of the dit dit sections and seems to have Swedish frog spliced out. I can't remember if this edit made it on TSS or not but it strikes me this is a pretty significant edit in this whole debate. However dazzling the vocals are on those dit dit variations, they make for a pretty repetitive sequence. I find it hard to believe that Brian planned to have such repetition within a 2-3 minute single conceived to trump Good Vibrations. It doesn't leave much room for any of the other cool stuff, let alone the main verses of the song.

It does make sense to have such a sequence on the b side though where things are less precious, or as part of a 6 minute epic where there's room for Brian to goof around: The dit dit variations and this particular edit strike me as a throwaway showcase of the boys vocal acrobatics - perfect b side filler, maybe interspersed with some teasers for other songs from the album (Heroes Intro = Fire, bicycle rider etc.) as per Cam's theory. I agree this theory does make more sense of Brian talking and worrying about 'giving too much away' when considering what to do on the b side.





Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Shady on March 12, 2013, 02:20:04 PM
I read this entire thread in work today.

Greatest 40 minutes I ever spent


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on March 12, 2013, 03:03:42 PM
I'm somewhat out of the loop with this thread so apologies if this has already been covered:

There's a Brian edit of the part two sections that iirc runs from gee through several of the dit dit sections and seems to have Swedish frog spliced out. I can't remember if this edit made it on TSS or not but it strikes me this is a pretty significant edit in this whole debate. However dazzling the vocals are on those dit dit variations, they make for a pretty repetitive sequence. I find it hard to believe that Brian planned to have such repetition within a 2-3 minute single conceived to trump Good Vibrations. It doesn't leave much room for any of the other cool stuff, let alone the main verses of the song.

It does make sense to have such a sequence on the b side though where things are less precious, or as part of a 6 minute epic where there's room for Brian to goof around: The dit dit variations and this particular edit strike me as a throwaway showcase of the boys vocal acrobatics - perfect b side filler, maybe interspersed with some teasers for other songs from the album (Heroes Intro = Fire, bicycle rider etc.) as per Cam's theory. I agree this theory does make more sense of Brian talking and worrying about 'giving too much away' when considering what to do on the b side.


Agree about that edit you mention in your first para – first surfaced on SOT UM Vol 17 I think, and there's at last one really deft edit in it which gives it much more punch than the dit dit dit showcase we're more accustomed to.  Can't recall it being on the TSS collection but I;'m going by memory… will have a proper listening session again soon.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 12, 2013, 07:25:16 PM
I'm somewhat out of the loop with this thread so apologies if this has already been covered:

There's a Brian edit of the part two sections that iirc runs from gee through several of the dit dit sections and seems to have Swedish frog spliced out. I can't remember if this edit made it on TSS or not but it strikes me this is a pretty significant edit in this whole debate.



The edit is included in the "H&V Early Version Outtakes" track.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Micha on March 13, 2013, 01:05:35 AM
There may not have been an overall plan and certain things were probably in consistent flux, but I do firmly believe that when Brian had the guys standing around the microphone singing "dit dit dit heroes and-a villains" that he did have an idea in his head as to what he was going to do with it.

It is unlikely that this wasn't the case. Imagine Brian recording all those complete versions of Good Vibration in a mood like "I don't know if I'm ever going to do something with this, but I sure like recording this song!"

But then why is every version of OMP/Sunshine that we've heard prior to box set is one with that part 2 piece missing?

There was a bad quality version of this circulating, complete with the buried vocals on the fade.

I think Brian is recording the H&V Fade on February 28, 1967, because he really liked the sound and feel of "My Only Sunshine, Part 2" as the Fade for the "Cantina" version he mixed down on February 10, 1967, but didn't want to cripple "My Only Sunshine" in order to use it. I think this shows that SMiLE is still on the table at this point.

ALL OF THE ABOVE IMHO

Very unlikely IMHO, as he already crippled it per the cantina mix. My take on this is that the fade started its life as the fade of H&V when MOS was still part of H&V. A revelatory thing on TSS to me was the version of "Prelude to fade" with the descending strings at the end, descending strings like on MOS. On MOS the fade follows the descending strings, and more than likely what would have followed the descending strings of "Prelude to fade" is the fade... I think "Prelude to fade" was to replace MOS as a H&V section.

And the rerecording seems to me kind of a try for a fresh start.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Micha on March 13, 2013, 01:12:54 AM
I have no idea or clue where HGS was to go, but I use it as a bridge in CIFOTM in my private mixes, because the lyrics are about an old man, and at the end little hands shadow on the ceiling, probably referring to a baby being born. And the key of the pre-TSS version fits CIFOTM, probably just coincidentally. For my last mix I sped up the TSS version of HGS.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 13, 2013, 03:18:18 AM
I'm somewhat out of the loop with this thread so apologies if this has already been covered:

There's a Brian edit of the part two sections that iirc runs from gee through several of the dit dit sections and seems to have Swedish frog spliced out. I can't remember if this edit made it on TSS or not but it strikes me this is a pretty significant edit in this whole debate.



The edit is included in the "H&V Early Version Outtakes" track.

Thanks. That edit alone is 1 minute 53 and that's with Swedish Frog missing. If we add that back in you potentially have 2 and a half minutes of a vintage H&V edit that has no verses, no My children were raised or accapella section or fade. All those Heroes side 2 deniers need to ask themselves exactly how the side A single would have incorporated that edit, and what would've been left out to make room for it. Unless Brian just planned to have a 5 + 6 minute plus H&V epic within the album proper, but a truncated version for the single. But to re state my point from earlier, a long version containing that edit just for the album seems a little odd to me. The repetitiveness of the sections seems like something he would do for the b side and it would be fun in that context.

Either way, this edit strikes me as good evidence that H&V was too long to fit on one side of a single at the point he was recording the Dit dit variations. If you combine this with the contemporary accounts of the a side/b side Heroes (Chuck Britz, Vosse) and the different master numbers it really amazes me that the 2 sided version is still in question!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 13, 2013, 03:37:42 AM


Agree about that edit you mention in your first para – first surfaced on SOT UM Vol 17 I think, and there's at last one really deft edit in it which gives it much more punch than the dit dit dit showcase we're more accustomed to.  

You're right John - there's a cool little handclap at the end of one of the sections that leads into the dit dit section with handclaps. It does have a punchier pace to it.

Another cool Heroes section  is labelled Heroes & Villains: Part 2 on TSS (track 21 I think). It sounds similar to Western theme and sounds like a bridge or another prelude to something else - maybe a fade. Anyway Brian plays one of these dit dit variations, major key bicycle rider things on the piano just before he leads into it. This suggests to me that this section was planned to follow the dit dit variations, or to be inserted inside them. It must be another part of the side 2 sequence imo. It makes me wonder if Swedish Frog was spliced out to be replaced with this section. I would love to sequence this part 2 section into Brian's vintage Gee edit.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 13, 2013, 06:33:35 AM

But then why is every version of OMP/Sunshine that we've heard prior to box set is one with that part 2 piece missing?

There was a bad quality version of this circulating, complete with the buried vocals on the fade.


I'm pretty sure that was a fan's edit. The "false barnyard" track with the extra vocals originally appeared on the "Long Lost Surf Songs" boot by itself. It didn't appear attached to the end of OMP on any vintage boots.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Micha on March 13, 2013, 08:40:31 AM

But then why is every version of OMP/Sunshine that we've heard prior to box set is one with that part 2 piece missing?

There was a bad quality version of this circulating, complete with the buried vocals on the fade.


I'm pretty sure that was a fan's edit. The "false barnyard" track with the extra vocals originally appeared on the "Long Lost Surf Songs" boot by itself. It didn't appear attached to the end of OMP on any vintage boots.

AGD? I can't tell, though both parts had about the same bad sound quality.

Not wanting to ridicule you, but I find the term "vintage boot" highly amusing. You know, some boots are more vintage than others... :-D


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: LeeDempsey on March 13, 2013, 09:01:47 AM

But then why is every version of OMP/Sunshine that we've heard prior to box set is one with that part 2 piece missing?

There was a bad quality version of this circulating, complete with the buried vocals on the fade.


I'm pretty sure that was a fan's edit. The "false barnyard" track with the extra vocals originally appeared on the "Long Lost Surf Songs" boot by itself. It didn't appear attached to the end of OMP on any vintage boots.

AGD? I can't tell, though both parts had about the same bad sound quality.

Not wanting to ridicule you, but I find the term "vintage boot" highly amusing. You know, some boots are more vintage than others... :-D

This was most definitely not a fan's edit -- although most folks probably heard it for the first time on a tape from the Rev. Bob Hanes...

In the mid-90's (back when I was actively involved in ESQ)  I was contacted by a fellow (in Ohio, I believe), who had in his possession an acetate of OMP/YAMS with Dennis' vocal, plus the fake Barnyard coda with the buried vocal.  He obtained the acetate, along with a couple of others, from a dealer who had bought a number of Dennis' possessions from Shawn Love Wilson.  He wanted to sell the acetates, and he gave me the first right of refusal, but at the time I was afraid that he wanted more than I could afford, so I gave him Peter Reum's phone number.  Peter ended up validating the acetates' authenticity and provenance, and buying the acetates from him.  At some point the Rev. Bob got a copy, and shared it with a chosen few, who shared it with a chosen few, etc.

I'm sure Peter can chime in with more details.

Lee


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on March 13, 2013, 09:22:24 AM
… which begs the question, where is it now?  Do you still have it Peter?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: LeeDempsey on March 13, 2013, 10:31:43 AM
By the way, the acetate was titled "My Only Sunshine."  Blank white label with just the title on it.  I know I've still got a photocopy of it in a box in my attic, as much to my wife's chagrin I don't throw anything Beach Boys-related away...

Lee


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 13, 2013, 11:11:29 AM

Not wanting to ridicule you



Then don't.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on March 13, 2013, 11:22:50 AM

But then why is every version of OMP/Sunshine that we've heard prior to box set is one with that part 2 piece missing?

There was a bad quality version of this circulating, complete with the buried vocals on the fade.


I'm pretty sure that was a fan's edit. The "false barnyard" track with the extra vocals originally appeared on the "Long Lost Surf Songs" boot by itself. It didn't appear attached to the end of OMP on any vintage boots.


What the engineer calls "Your Only Sunshine" during the (part 1) session on TSS (disc 3 track 6), consists of TOMP/YAMS (close enough); might even have been the same guy who wrote the label Lee refers to, I guess. Part 2 – is part of the same TSS track, from about the 3-minute mark.

The vocals-only "false barnyard" fade (disc 3, track 7) is track-listed and vocally slated as "My Only Sunshine: Part 2" which also implies the three sections belonged together from the off.

The clues are all there in the recording sessions even if not on the old boots (though I'm sure I have a boot from way-back that has the three sections together…)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on March 13, 2013, 11:57:01 AM
I'm not arguing that the three parts go together. I'm well aware of the songs history. I was just saying that back in the pre-internet days I don't recall a boot with the complete track going around. I had to piece it together myself. I was just saying that most boots only had the first part.  If there was a boot of all three parts together I was not aware of it.

This was a rebuttal to a long forgotten earlier post about "false barnyard" being returned to OMP as an explanation for the re-recording of "false barnyard" with the Carl scat. Forget it.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 13, 2013, 03:01:13 PM
Unless Brian just planned to have a 5 + 6 minute plus H&V epic within the album proper, but a truncated version for the single

 +1 Whole Lotta Love. In a-Gadda-da-Vida. etc etc.

ALSO

Coulld someone clarify: False Barnyard, OMP (TOMP), and YAMS

Thanks


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Micha on March 13, 2013, 03:13:46 PM

Not wanting to ridicule you



Then don't.



I didn't, I hope? If so, I'm sorry. Everything's cool, Bubba.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 13, 2013, 05:39:23 PM
Unless Brian just planned to have a 5 + 6 minute plus H&V epic within the album proper, but a truncated version for the single

 +1 Whole Lotta Love. In a-Gadda-da-Vida. etc etc.

ALSO

Coulld someone clarify: False Barnyard, OMP (TOMP), and YAMS

Thanks

Hey leggo,

False Barnyard = Disc 1, Track 07 at 1:05 on The SMiLE Sessions Box Set

OMP/YAMS = Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine - Disc 1, Track 7  on The SMiLE Sessions Box Set

I hope this is what you meant!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Peter Reum on March 13, 2013, 08:38:31 PM
The combination of OMP/YAMS goes back to the first Smile tape from 1978. It was also presented that way on Dennis's acetate that I bought in 1994. But that version was with the earliest Smile tape.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Micha on March 14, 2013, 01:04:05 AM
The combination of OMP/YAMS goes back to the first Smile tape from 1978. It was also presented that way on Dennis's acetate that I bought in 1994. But that version was with the earliest Smile tape.

The question was, was the tag already attached to OMP/YAMS?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 14, 2013, 01:18:54 AM
The combination of OMP/YAMS goes back to the first Smile tape from 1978. It was also presented that way on Dennis's acetate that I bought in 1994. But that version was with the earliest Smile tape.

The question was, was the tag already attached to OMP/YAMS?

I think Bubba was just saying the complete version with tag was never booted but apparently it was on the 1st boot in 1978. The tag version existed on the Dennis acetate from the get go by the looks of it, so yes that is a vintage 66 edit.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 14, 2013, 09:22:20 AM
So presumably somebody now owns the Durrie Parks acetates but what type of collector could that be? I hoped it was a benevolent Smiley Smiler who would be itching to PM us all this Great Shape edit, but I suppose it could just as easily be a collector of music memorabilia who has no specific interest in Smile - the Beach Boys, even - and therefore no inclination to share the contents of the acetates.

From an investment p.o.v. it probably makes more sense to keep the tracks under wraps so the mythology of the recordings grows along with their value  :'(


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tricycle Rider on March 15, 2013, 08:50:48 AM
I wonder who did buy those acetates?..it's bound to be known at some point, isn't it?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 16, 2013, 02:30:27 PM
Unless Brian just planned to have a 5 + 6 minute plus H&V epic within the album proper, but a truncated version for the single

 +1 Whole Lotta Love. In a-Gadda-da-Vida. etc etc.

ALSO

Coulld someone clarify: False Barnyard, OMP (TOMP), and YAMS

Thanks

Hey leggo,

False Barnyard = Disc 1, Track 07 at 1:05 on The SMiLE Sessions Box Set

OMP/YAMS = Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine - Disc 1, Track 7  on The SMiLE Sessions Box Set

I hope this is what you meant!

Yes TR that is perfect - I wonder why I cant figure out some of this on my own: TOMP = The Olde Master Painter d'oh!

Say have you heard the track where Brian is telling them the song title/slate is The Old Master Painter then someone
mumbles something (not clear enough to make out, or my ears are shot) THEN everybody starts laughing out loud -- I would lay odds they said "the old masturbater" - one of the guys can't compose himself for nearly a couple of minutes, you can tell Brian is somewhat perturbed with them joking around.

I wonder who it was. 



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: leggo of my ego on March 16, 2013, 02:33:58 PM
So presumably somebody now owns the Durrie Parks acetates but what type of collector could that be? I hoped it was a benevolent Smiley Smiler who would be itching to PM us all this Great Shape edit, but I suppose it could just as easily be a collector of music memorabilia who has no specific interest in Smile - the Beach Boys, even - and therefore no inclination to share the contents of the acetates.

From an investment p.o.v. it probably makes more sense to keep the tracks under wraps so the mythology of the recordings grows along with their value  :'(

Yeah, like one of the those deep-pocketed guitar collectors with rows upon rows of hermetically sealed cases full of vintage guitars... who cant play an open Em.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Rob Dean on March 16, 2013, 03:02:11 PM
So presumably somebody now owns the Durrie Parks acetates but what type of collector could that be? I hoped it was a benevolent Smiley Smiler who would be itching to PM us all this Great Shape edit, but I suppose it could just as easily be a collector of music memorabilia who has no specific interest in Smile - the Beach Boys, even - and therefore no inclination to share the contents of the acetates.

From an investment p.o.v. it probably makes more sense to keep the tracks under wraps so the mythology of the recordings grows along with their value  :'(

Yeah, like one of the those deep-pocketed guitar collectors with rows upon rows of hermetically sealed cases full of vintage guitars... who cant play an open Em.


Bless Keith Richards  :lol

Or indeed the guy from Spinal Tap


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: sockittome on March 17, 2013, 10:12:42 AM
So presumably somebody now owns the Durrie Parks acetates but what type of collector could that be? I hoped it was a benevolent Smiley Smiler who would be itching to PM us all this Great Shape edit, but I suppose it could just as easily be a collector of music memorabilia who has no specific interest in Smile - the Beach Boys, even - and therefore no inclination to share the contents of the acetates.

From an investment p.o.v. it probably makes more sense to keep the tracks under wraps so the mythology of the recordings grows along with their value  :'(

Yeah, like one of the those deep-pocketed guitar collectors with rows upon rows of hermetically sealed cases full of vintage guitars... who cant play an open Em.


Bless Keith Richards  :lol

Or indeed the guy from Spinal Tap

Nigel Tufnel: DON'T LOOK AT IT!!!
Marty DeBergi: I was just pointing....
Nigel Tufnel: DON'T EVEN POINT!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: send me a picture and i'll tell you on March 19, 2013, 01:42:31 PM
I'm just curious how these things stayed listed for 3 or 4 days, at least.  $10K's not exactly pocket change, but some Hard Rock Cafe owner or some uber-well-known music historian or rock critic could have pocketed them in an instant, and had a collector's dream item. 

Have we determined from the listing on the seller's site which tracks may be stuff we haven't heard in some form or another?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bicyclerider on March 19, 2013, 07:17:13 PM
We determined what's new from the Smiley poster who heard the acetates!  See his description earlier in this thread!


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 20, 2013, 05:32:25 AM
Spil - Here is Andy's post that describes what he heard:


Yep! Good to see you still around, EM. It's been a while..I feel...older. Here's your link from Durrie: http://troun.tripod.com/durrie.html *EDIT* Donny L beat me to it! That's your interview?! So cool! I remember reading that in 2000, I think, and later referencing that interview for years, repeatedly begging my sources to pass along the message to Durrie that people would pay to dig through her storage and get these.

I wish I could've written more yesterday but the timing isn't great.

Long story short: I had a chance to listen to the acetates back in September. I happily volunteered to listen to them as I'd be able to say whether or not there was revelatory material on them. As you can imagine, it was completely surreal. Even just looking at the acetates was crazy. Here was a group of acetates that hadn't been touched in years, with hand-written labels, made from torn up pieces of paper, scotch-taped to each acetate to identify its contents. I'm sure someone can confirm whose handwriting is on these labels.

We went through the first two or three acetates and nothing was groundbreaking. In general, over half of them sounded like unique mixes of already bootlegged material, but it could've been the result of listening off of an acetate.

Anyway, we get to one of the acetates labeled "H&V". At some point, a completely new version of I'm In Great Shape starts playing. It was radically different from the versions in circulation (of which there is one with harp and saxophone, one with celeste, and one with heavy piano if I remember correctly)! This version of IIGS has more heavy instrumentation, but has the IIGS bassline. There was definitely percussion, maybe snares and other various pieces. It's pretty similar to the false barnyard instrumentation, and my guess is that it's on disc 1 of the link at the beginning of this thread (and is mislabeled, but I guess I can see how the two got confused).

At this point I thought "wow, amazing!", but then something really interesting happened! In two clearly spliced edits (speaking of which, I can't remember if IIGS had the tape distortion effect the earlier takes had, but if it did it was much, much more subtle), IGGS went directly into the harpsichord playing that's underneath "my children were raised, you know they...", from the official H&V single, but with the arrangement from H&V part 1 from the SS/WH twofer that goes into "healthy wealthy and OFTEN wise" (all with no vocals), then directly into the full instrumental arrangement behind "three score and five", and that then played out until the finish of the acetate. I cannot remember if the three score and five vocals were on top of the section or not...it all happened so fast and I was just caught off guard. Either way, it's the first time I'd heard that arrangement of those pieces, and it came straight from the men. So clearly this was the highlight to me.

The second biggest highlight for me came from Do You Like Worms. Maybe this piece is out there so forgive me for not having heard it. One of the mixes of Bicycle Rider on an acetate was the kick drum, and the oooga cha vocals, with very light harpsichord in the mix. It was extremely rhythmic and very punchy. It was nothing mindblowing, like hearing Ribbon of Concrete being sung would have been, but it just sounded amazing.

There is also a completely new/original keenywokapula vocal take on one of the DYLWs with a different mix. Not mindblowingly new, but mindblowingly great to listen to.

Like I said earlier, I think there were several unique mixes of previously heard stuff, but outside of the new IIGS and the edits, I didn't notice anything else that was revelatory.

As to the quality...well, they're old acetates that have been sitting in a storage facility in Arizona for years, along with boxes of clothes, photos, records, etc. They were very crackly and poppy, probably like some of the lower quality CIFOTM acetate recordings that are floating around. I'm no record expert, but maybe someone who is can say whether or not the quality could be improved by a very good cleaning. The acetates were dusty.

I'd tried to reference it in the Alan Boyd lecture thread, but I don't think these new pieces would make an official release due to their quality, and the discrepancy between the amount of work it'd take to get these cleared for a release versus the lack of interest from general Beach Boy fans for these tracks (I say general, but that definitely doesn't apply to people on this site, like me, who'd pay hundreds/thousands to hear any new SMiLE-related fragments).

I really hope these acetates wind up in the hands of the right people, and get catalogue/archived/thrown into the history bin. I think they're extremely valuable pieces and I'm glad they finally came out, 13 or so years later (and really 28 years or longer since AGD asked about them in '85). Even moreso, I hope everyone gets a chance to hear them soon!

Finally, here are a couple of pics I took with my phone..if only I'd gotten audio recordings as well! Notice you'll see the acetate with the warp on it.

*EDIT* You can see much bigger versions of the pictures below directly on flickr..for some reason I can't make them bigger on here.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8517/8518937139_d28d25d8ff_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38049467@N06/8518937139/)
2012-09-12_13-10-10_461 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38049467@N06/8518937139/)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8244/8520051650_ddedc528e8_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38049467@N06/8520051650/)
2012-09-12_13-11-10_461 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38049467@N06/8520051650/)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8231/8520051786_f9ebc70520_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38049467@N06/8520051786/)
2012-09-12_13-10-42_183 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38049467@N06/8520051786/)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8378/8518937685_2ebfe49518_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38049467@N06/8518937685/)
2012-09-12_13-10-37_66 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38049467@N06/8518937685/)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: 1-1-wonderful on March 20, 2013, 05:51:39 AM
Unless Brian just planned to have a 5 + 6 minute plus H&V epic within the album proper, but a truncated version for the single

 +1 Whole Lotta Love. In a-Gadda-da-Vida. etc etc.

ALSO

Coulld someone clarify: False Barnyard, OMP (TOMP), and YAMS

Thanks

Hey leggo,

False Barnyard = Disc 1, Track 07 at 1:05 on The SMiLE Sessions Box Set

OMP/YAMS = Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine - Disc 1, Track 7  on The SMiLE Sessions Box Set

I hope this is what you meant!

Yes TR that is perfect - I wonder why I cant figure out some of this on my own: TOMP = The Olde Master Painter d'oh!

Say have you heard the track where Brian is telling them the song title/slate is The Old Master Painter then someone
mumbles something (not clear enough to make out, or my ears are shot) THEN everybody starts laughing out loud -- I would lay odds they said "the old masturbater" - one of the guys can't compose himself for nearly a couple of minutes, you can tell Brian is somewhat perturbed with them joking around.

I wonder who it was. 



Why is it referred to as "false" Barnyard?  (please don't pounce)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: buddhahat on March 20, 2013, 06:38:38 AM
I don't know the exact story  - I thought when that Heroes fade first circulated it was wrongly identified as barnyard, then the real Barnyard leaked and, hey presto, False Barnyard got its name. Anybody have better info on this?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Tilt Araiza on March 20, 2013, 07:24:32 PM
I don't know the exact story  - I thought when that Heroes fade first circulated it was wrongly identified as barnyard, then the real Barnyard leaked and, hey presto, False Barnyard got its name. Anybody have better info on this?
I don't have my copy to hand, but I believe that the first appearance of the Heroes fade, mislabeled as Barnyard, minus the rest of Heroes and (I think) in stereo, was on the first Smile boot in 1983.  The Japanese 1989(?) CD boot also had the fade listed as Barnyard as well as the actual Barnyard (also listed as Barnyard) .


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on September 09, 2013, 11:11:36 AM
Sorry to get this thread going again, but do we have any idea where these ended up? Is there any way of finding out?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: ash on September 09, 2013, 02:54:47 PM
Agreed. A october/november nearly complete Heroes with alternate Great Shape is a critical piece of the puzzle - i'd rather have that than MIC to be honest. The Worms acetate sounds interesting too. We need them all.
Mind you these would all fit nicely on a Smile Sessions 2 box. Al could dub on the proper Worms lyrics if we can get the rest of the line's melody out of brian and vdp.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: runnersdialzero on September 09, 2013, 03:35:40 PM
Agreed. A october/november nearly complete Heroes with alternate Great Shape is a critical piece of the puzzle - i'd rather have that than MIC to be honest. The Worms acetate sounds interesting too. We need them all.
Mind you these would all fit nicely on a Smile Sessions 2 box. Al could dub on the proper Worms lyrics if we can get the rest of the line's melody out of brian and vdp.

Hey there, welcome to planet earth. I'm runnerz, and these are my bears Timmy, Shadow, Beary and Old Bear. We come in peace, sincerely. How are you?

Naw but srsly it's so goofy that a couple of these did not make disc 6 of MIC. I'm not normally one of those "BUT THEY SHOULD HAVE REPLACED THIS SONG WITH THAT SONG", but the Smile backing vocals montage and "Good Vibrations" stereo sections could've easily been replaced by a few of these. I mean these kids do a good job, but yeah, goofy move. Goofy, goofy move.

P.S. Cannot believe that after the last minute substitution of the "Barnyard" track with stereo group vocals for just the track on TSS did not result in, at the very least, them tossing said stereo group vocals into the montage on MIC. Y"KNOW.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: hypehat on September 09, 2013, 05:15:51 PM
Now I could have sworn that I read on the board that these acetates were auditioned by Capitol in the run up to TSS and there was nothing of note on them.....


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on September 10, 2013, 12:39:57 AM
Now I could have sworn that I read on the board that these acetates were auditioned by Capitol in the run up to TSS and there was nothing of note on them.....

And yet the descriptions of the track say otherwise. Alternate "children were raised". H&V with Great Shape.

Quote
Anyway, we get to one of the acetates labeled "H&V". At some point, a completely new version of I'm In Great Shape starts playing. It was radically different from the versions in circulation (of which there is one with harp and saxophone, one with celeste, and one with heavy piano if I remember correctly)! This version of IIGS has more heavy instrumentation, but has the IIGS bassline. There was definitely percussion, maybe snares and other various pieces. It's pretty similar to the false barnyard instrumentation, and my guess is that it's on disc 1 of the link at the beginning of this thread (and is mislabeled, but I guess I can see how the two got confused).

At this point I thought "wow, amazing!", but then something really interesting happened! In two clearly spliced edits (speaking of which, I can't remember if IIGS had the tape distortion effect the earlier takes had, but if it did it was much, much more subtle), IGGS went directly into the harpsichord playing that's underneath "my children were raised, you know they...", from the official H&V single, but with the arrangement from H&V part 1 from the SS/WH twofer that goes into "healthy wealthy and OFTEN wise" (all with no vocals), then directly into the full instrumental arrangement behind "three score and five", and that then played out until the finish of the acetate. I cannot remember if the three score and five vocals were on top of the section or not...it all happened so fast and I was just caught off guard. Either way, it's the first time I'd heard that arrangement of those pieces, and it came straight from the men. So clearly this was the highlight to me.

The second biggest highlight for me came from Do You Like Worms. Maybe this piece is out there so forgive me for not having heard it. One of the mixes of Bicycle Rider on an acetate was the kick drum, and the oooga cha vocals, with very light harpsichord in the mix. It was extremely rhythmic and very punchy. It was nothing mindblowing, like hearing Ribbon of Concrete being sung would have been, but it just sounded amazing.

There is also a completely new/original keenywokapula vocal take on one of the DYLWs with a different mix. Not mindblowingly new, but mindblowingly great to listen to.

Er.....yes please!!!!!!!

Guys, these are in the hands of a private collector. Maybe someone who reads this board. If there was some way of finding out where they ended up, we could tentatively find out what it would take for us to hear these disks.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: The Heartical Don on September 10, 2013, 01:22:04 AM
Mysterious gang of drugged lunatics raids house of California resident - expensive possessions completely untouched, only small quantity of items from music room missing.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on September 10, 2013, 01:35:46 AM
Mysterious gang of drugged lunatics raids house of California resident - expensive possessions completely untouched, only small quantity of items from music room missing.

The only drug I'm high on is my unsated Smile obsession.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: The Heartical Don on September 10, 2013, 01:37:50 AM
Mysterious gang of drugged lunatics raids house of California resident - expensive possessions completely untouched, only small quantity of items from music room missing.

The only drug I'm high on is my unsated Smile obsession.

Hm. You are that mystery buyer then. And are making fools of us. Smart game, Stephen. Very smart...


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on September 10, 2013, 01:42:30 AM
If you give me your entire Beach Boys collection, I'll send you one snippet of H&V October assembly in an 8bit  MP3.



Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Gertie J. on September 10, 2013, 01:47:30 AM
lol, let's not start again.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: The Heartical Don on September 10, 2013, 02:01:12 AM
If you give me your entire Beach Boys collection, I'll send you one snippet of H&V October assembly in an 8bit  MP3.



I just p*ssed myself. And I blame you.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: hypehat on September 10, 2013, 04:44:28 AM
Now I could have sworn that I read on the board that these acetates were auditioned by Capitol in the run up to TSS and there was nothing of note on them.....

And yet the descriptions of the track say otherwise. Alternate "children were raised". H&V with Great Shape.

Quote
Anyway, we get to one of the acetates labeled "H&V". At some point, a completely new version of I'm In Great Shape starts playing. It was radically different from the versions in circulation (of which there is one with harp and saxophone, one with celeste, and one with heavy piano if I remember correctly)! This version of IIGS has more heavy instrumentation, but has the IIGS bassline. There was definitely percussion, maybe snares and other various pieces. It's pretty similar to the false barnyard instrumentation, and my guess is that it's on disc 1 of the link at the beginning of this thread (and is mislabeled, but I guess I can see how the two got confused).

At this point I thought "wow, amazing!", but then something really interesting happened! In two clearly spliced edits (speaking of which, I can't remember if IIGS had the tape distortion effect the earlier takes had, but if it did it was much, much more subtle), IGGS went directly into the harpsichord playing that's underneath "my children were raised, you know they...", from the official H&V single, but with the arrangement from H&V part 1 from the SS/WH twofer that goes into "healthy wealthy and OFTEN wise" (all with no vocals), then directly into the full instrumental arrangement behind "three score and five", and that then played out until the finish of the acetate. I cannot remember if the three score and five vocals were on top of the section or not...it all happened so fast and I was just caught off guard. Either way, it's the first time I'd heard that arrangement of those pieces, and it came straight from the men. So clearly this was the highlight to me.

The second biggest highlight for me came from Do You Like Worms. Maybe this piece is out there so forgive me for not having heard it. One of the mixes of Bicycle Rider on an acetate was the kick drum, and the oooga cha vocals, with very light harpsichord in the mix. It was extremely rhythmic and very punchy. It was nothing mindblowing, like hearing Ribbon of Concrete being sung would have been, but it just sounded amazing.

There is also a completely new/original keenywokapula vocal take on one of the DYLWs with a different mix. Not mindblowingly new, but mindblowingly great to listen to.

Er.....yes please!!!!!!!

Guys, these are in the hands of a private collector. Maybe someone who reads this board. If there was some way of finding out where they ended up, we could tentatively find out what it would take for us to hear these disks.


Ahh, I hate things like that, I'm inclined not to trust them.

'And then, a version of one song played, with some instruments on it, like... bass. And drums. It sounded like a thing that also has bass and drums, like Please Please Me or the Ode To Joy. Then it went into that part from the same song, but it was different, in a way I can't remember well enough to articulate in words. Then there was an edit, but I can't tell whether it's new as I'm not familiar enough with the song in the first place, and then the song played! But then it ended, in a way I also am unable to remember. It was raining outside, that I remember. Her eyes were blue. Raining so much. It didn't stop.'

Also,

'IGGS went directly into the harpsichord playing that's underneath "my children were raised, you know they...", from the official H&V single, but with the arrangement from H&V part 1 from the SS/WH twofer that goes into "healthy wealthy and OFTEN wise" (all with no vocals), then directly into the full instrumental arrangement behind "three score and five"'

This makes no sense? So the harpsichord plays Children Were Raised, with the arrangement from the 'Part One' mix over the top. But with no vocals. So it's a harpsichord part with a no vocals mix of an much faster acapella part on top of it? Do they just mean it's got the piano part of 'Often Wise' on it? I HATE THESE THINGS  :lol

If you give me your entire Beach Boys collection, I'll send you one snippet of H&V October assembly in an 8bit  MP3.

Deal.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: send me a picture and i'll tell you on September 10, 2013, 12:31:45 PM
"Love and Mercy" has a scene in which SMiLE collapses, and a distraught Brian starts breaking acetates against the walls.  With these big-budget Hollywood things, $10,000 was a small price to pay to lend a period look to the scene.

Or Brian (or his wifeandmanagers) simply wants the audience to actually experience seeing SMiLE being destroyed.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: runnersdialzero on September 11, 2013, 08:11:52 AM
"Love and Mercy" has a scene in which SMiLE collapses, and a distraught Brian starts throwing acetates against the walls.  With these big-budget Hollywood things, $10,000 was a small price to pay to lend a period look to the scene.

Or Brian (or his wifeandmanagers) simply wants the audience to actually experience seeing SMiLE being destroyed.

It's true. Mike, Murry, and Marilyn (the unholy trinity of people whose name starts with "M" as the film credits them) are in the scene too, cheering him on and stealing his medication and smashing his bread. The next scene is the band working on "Do It Again" and Brian looks real sad.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mr. Cohen on September 11, 2013, 08:51:21 AM
One big revelation in the film is that Brian didn't spend much time in bed. He actually spent most of the mid-70s playing "Shortenin' Bread" while he stared at a plate of actual shortening bread on the lid of his piano with a Cheshire grin. It was Marilyn's job to restock the shortening bread a few times a day.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: send me a picture and i'll tell you on September 11, 2013, 09:47:08 AM
He named his favorite pieces of bread Diane and Stevie, and he would pick them up and rub them together while making "rrrrr, rrrrr" truck noises with his mouth. One day Marilyn got mad and threw them out and replaced them with a piece of pumpernickel, which Brian named Carolyn.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on September 12, 2013, 02:21:03 AM
Now I could have sworn that I read on the board that these acetates were auditioned by Capitol in the run up to TSS and there was nothing of note on them.....

You're remembering correctly. And don't swear, it's rude.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: UK_Surf on September 12, 2013, 02:40:28 AM
Not sure if someone's already mentioned this stuff, but I think Durrie Parks once visited the old Smile Shop message board (or someone reported his interview with her there...gettin' rusty here); regardless, fans have been aware of her acetate collection for at least a decade (but not of its specific contents), and of course, the MIC audition process was reported.  The value in that audition may not have been in the audio, but in the editing decisions.

However, this itemised list is excellent (though I share the suspicion that although "unreleased", some, maybe all of these items may be on boots on one form or another).

Still. Cool to be a BBs fan.

Oh, as I've been living under a rock for the last year, is there anything useful related to Smile on MIC?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Micha on September 12, 2013, 04:23:45 AM
IIGS went directly into the harpsichord playing that's underneath "my children were raised, you know they...", from the official H&V single, but with the arrangement from H&V part 1 from the SS/WH twofer that goes into "healthy wealthy and OFTEN wise" (all with no vocals), then directly into the full instrumental arrangement behind "three score and five",

I thought about it - probably the poster meant with "arrangement" the way the sections are edited together, not what we would call an "arrangement". So I figure it's the harpsichord section ending abruptly followed by the piano under "often wise". Otherwise it wouldn't make sense, as the arrangement for the "my children were raised" on the alternate take is purely accapella, so if there are no vocals as the poster says, there's no arrangement at all.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: DonnyL on September 12, 2013, 09:05:10 AM
Not sure if someone's already mentioned this stuff, but I think Durrie Parks once visited the old Smile Shop message board (or someone reported his interview with her there...gettin' rusty here); regardless, fans have been aware of her acetate collection for at least a decade (but not of its specific contents), and of course, the MIC audition process was reported.  The value in that audition may not have been in the audio, but in the editing decisions.

However, this itemised list is excellent (though I share the suspicion that although "unreleased", some, maybe all of these items may be on boots on one form or another).

Still. Cool to be a BBs fan.

Oh, as I've been living under a rock for the last year, is there anything useful related to Smile on MIC?

That was me ... I'm the one that broke the news, back in '99. I knew Durrie personally in the late '90s.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: soniclovenoize on September 12, 2013, 09:45:20 AM
Wow what a great thread.  I guess that's what happens when I'm gone for a while ;_;


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: UK_Surf on September 16, 2013, 03:40:36 AM
Great stuff! I remember well the excitement that caused at the time, and how a real sense of an online Smile research culture that could make a difference in the actual world started to galvanise then. Nice one - thanks!


Not sure if someone's already mentioned this stuff, but I think Durrie Parks once visited the old Smile Shop message board (or someone reported his interview with her there...gettin' rusty here); regardless, fans have been aware of her acetate collection for at least a decade (but not of its specific contents), and of course, the MIC audition process was reported.  The value in that audition may not have been in the audio, but in the editing decisions.

However, this itemised list is excellent (though I share the suspicion that although "unreleased", some, maybe all of these items may be on boots on one form or another).

Still. Cool to be a BBs fan.

Oh, as I've been living under a rock for the last year, is there anything useful related to Smile on MIC?

That was me ... I'm the one that broke the news, back in '99. I knew Durrie personally in the late '90s.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Bicyclerider on September 16, 2013, 06:29:29 PM
Now I could have sworn that I read on the board that these acetates were auditioned by Capitol in the run up to TSS and there was nothing of note on them.....

You're remembering correctly. And don't swear, it's rude.

No, acetates in Durrie's possession were auditioned by Capitol and nothing new was found - but not these acetates, which were discovered later.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: DonnyL on September 16, 2013, 09:46:50 PM
I'd bet there's lots more stuff floating around out there. Most people wouldn't know it if they saw it.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on September 17, 2013, 12:08:28 AM
I could ask someone who might know someone who might know whether someone would know whether there's anything else out there. Hang on…

Andrew is there anything else out there?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: MJP on September 17, 2013, 04:05:49 AM
Andrew,
Is there any of that 5 hours of Smile material that you heard during a visit to the colonies back in the 80's still unreleased?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on September 17, 2013, 04:31:45 AM
Now I could have sworn that I read on the board that these acetates were auditioned by Capitol in the run up to TSS and there was nothing of note on them.....

You're remembering correctly. And don't swear, it's rude.

No, acetates in Durrie's possession were auditioned by Capitol and nothing new was found - but not these acetates, which were discovered later.

More info please.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on September 17, 2013, 06:46:32 AM
No, acetates in Durrie's possession were auditioned by Capitol and nothing new was found - but not these acetates, which were discovered later.
More info please.

Indeed!  Assume, if they indeed are new discoveries, that they were offered up to Boyd & Linett in the first instance, even if it was after the TSS-fact?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on September 17, 2013, 07:49:08 AM
Andrew,
Is there any of that 5 hours of Smile material that you heard during a visit to the colonies back in the 80's still unreleased?

Yup.

I could ask someone who might know someone who might know whether someone would know whether there's anything else out there. Hang on…

Andrew is there anything else out there?

Sure - the one that springs to mind unbidden is Brian's 11/66 mono mix and edit of the "CIFTTM" track. I cannot understand for the life of me why it wasn't on one box or the other - it's outstanding. Er, allegedly. I've been told.

Now I could have sworn that I read on the board that these acetates were auditioned by Capitol in the run up to TSS and there was nothing of note on them.....

You're remembering correctly. And don't swear, it's rude.

No, acetates in Durrie's possession were auditioned by Capitol and nothing new was found - but not these acetates, which were discovered later.

Well what do I know, but my strong impression was that the 'new' acetates were indeed auditioned for TSS and not included as nothing of importance was found: even if I'm awry (unlikely, granted, but it has been known...*), if anything substantial was discovered, it'd be on MiC, wouldn't it ?

(* - this is a joke, people)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: MJP on September 17, 2013, 08:12:31 AM
Andrew,
Is there any of that 5 hours of Smile material that you heard during a visit to the colonies back in the 80's still unreleased?

Yup.

I've always felt that somewhere there are some unreleased rough mixes with scratch vocals being enjoyed by a lone wolf collector.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Micha on September 17, 2013, 09:32:16 AM
Andrew,
Is there any of that 5 hours of Smile material that you heard during a visit to the colonies back in the 80's still unreleased?

Yup.

Aside of the CIFOTM mix, any more you'd think that was essential?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: John Manning on September 17, 2013, 10:11:20 AM
Andrew,
Is there any of that 5 hours of Smile material that you heard during a visit to the colonies back in the 80's still unreleased?

Yup.

Aside of the CIFOTM mix, any more you'd think that was essential?

There's the Barnyard track with animal noises but without flown-in vocals. I'd count that as essential.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard on March 25, 2014, 06:50:21 AM
Andrew,
Is there any of that 5 hours of Smile material that you heard during a visit to the colonies back in the 80's still unreleased?

Yup.

Aside of the CIFOTM mix, any more you'd think that was essential?

There's the Barnyard track with animal noises but without flown-in vocals. I'd count that as essential.

Personally, I wouldn't. But this alt CIFOTM has me very curious! I've always loved that song so much, but hated most of the arrangements for it, especially Disc 1 of TSS. I think it's among the most underappreciated songs the 'Boys ever did. Along with the vocal track of Look, alt CIFOTM is what I would love to see on any new tapes/acetates from the SMiLE Era.

On an unrelated note...thank you all for a good read. It's threads like these that make Smiley Smile one of the best forums online. I'm very intrigued by H&V and its complex development. I hope whoever bought the acetates, or whoever sold them in the first place, has made a digital copy that can be shared.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Jeff on February 11, 2016, 08:15:17 PM
So is it still generally unknown as to who bought the acetates?  Any rumors of what, if anything, might come of this?


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: sweetdudejim on February 11, 2016, 09:17:59 PM
So is it still generally unknown as to who bought the acetates?  Any rumors of what, if anything, might come of this?

Well, I'd like to assume that Brother Records has at the very least transferred all the Durrie Parks material to digital, that way something at some time could be done with it.

Now, by count this is gonna be fifty years since most of the SMiLE sessions (well at least most sessions that aren't "Heroes and Villains" or "Vega-Tables" sessions). And due to the use it or lose it law, hopefully that means Brother and Capital would like to get this stuff out before it goes public domain.

Now does that mean we will get whatever unreleased SMiLE stuff that's left this year? I'd hope so. But I also remember hearing something about alternate takes or something not necessarily needing to be covered. Maybe I'm totally wrong. Hopefully another one of our beloved posters could shine some light on this for me.

Anyways, here's hoping for at least a few more SMiLE nuggets later this year!

 :)


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on February 12, 2016, 01:47:06 AM
The acetates were, I believe, auditioned by someone who knew what they were doing on behalf of BRI, and apparently nothing of interest was discovered.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Jeff on February 12, 2016, 11:34:20 AM
The acetates were, I believe, auditioned by someone who knew what they were doing on behalf of BRI, and apparently nothing of interest was discovered.

OK, but do we know that the "audition" included the acetates in question?  Bicyclerider, for one, states above that although "acetates in Durrie's possession were auditioned by Capitol and nothing new was found," the acetates discussed in this thread "were discovered later."

And of course, we have Andy's posts stating that in fact something very significant was found--and it's currently unreleased and unbooted.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Hickory Violet Part IV on August 10, 2017, 11:41:42 PM
Someone, somewhere is sitting on a potentially unheard H&V edit containing  unique versions of IIGS and Children Where Raised sections.

Every few years I'm going to bump this thread.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Dove Nested Towers on August 11, 2017, 01:45:22 AM
Someone, somewhere is sitting on a potentially unheard H&V edit containing  unique versions of IIGS and Children Where Raised sections.

Every few years I'm going to bump this thread.

Please do.


Title: Re: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000
Post by: Mr. Tiger on August 11, 2017, 01:45:54 PM
Maybe someday we'll all have a chance to hear it....   :bw