Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Bruce, Al, and Mike's memories of Smile are incomprehensible to me.

[hypehat]

Guitar fool and bgas, I am posting on my phone so I CBA to quote u.

Posting stories about exactly the kind of person Brian isnt wont help your argument. if he did display savant levels of memory, it wouldn't be news in 2013. If he did, Brian Wilson is simply an asshole.

But, Brian has been given plenty of opportunity to divulge 'the real meaning'. The 'holy grail'. Whatever. If there was a record to set straight, he has had plenty of opportunity to set it straight. Privately. Darian, van dyke in 03, Boyd and Linnett in 2011. Now, no one knows exactly what Brian said to Coach. He might have told him exactly how smile was supposed to go down and throw in the meaning of life as well. He might have just talked about the sandpit. Brian didn't finish smile for a reason - he had no grand overarching plan that would tie it up. It got away from him. He decided to make Smiley Smile instead.

[guitarfool2002]

I haven't been able to make sense of it either, in light of those Youtube promotional webisodes for Smile Sessions. Not so much make sense of it, but maybe try to find a way in my mind to come to terms with the fact that the negativity - and it was not perceived negativity, or coming from a slanted viewpoint, or anything like that - but the fact that the negativity we had read and heard all but disappeared for the promotional material, after we had all read things like the Bruce interview and the Al interviews about crawling on the floor and all of it before.

Is it a sense of mea culpa in hindsight, where it's now "hey, yeah, you know this was all great stuff we were hearing" coming from something other than what they had said previously about those same sessions?

It's old news, it's kicking a dead horse, I realize all that, but still...

[guitarfool2002]

Guitar fool and bgas, I am posting on my phone so I CBA to quote u.

Posting stories about exactly the kind of person Brian isnt wont help your argument. if he did display savant levels of memory, it wouldn't be news in 2013. If he did, Brian Wilson is simply an asshole.

But, Brian has been given plenty of opportunity to divulge 'the real meaning'. The 'holy grail'. Whatever. If there was a record to set straight, he has had plenty of opportunity to set it straight. Privately. Darian, van dyke in 03, Boyd and Linnett in 2011. Now, no one knows exactly what Brian said to Coach. He might have told him exactly how smile was supposed to go down and throw in the meaning of life as well. He might have just talked about the sandpit. Brian didn't finish smile for a reason - he had no grand overarching plan that would tie it up. It got away from him. He decided to make Smiley Smile instead.

Van Dyke Parks has been given the same opportunities to reveal certain things, so far: Are we challenging him to open up and reveal those things where he was not only witnessing it but was also an active participant, in studio and at the house?

[guitarfool2002]

Let me also go out on a limb and add that one of the bigger misconceptions about Smile might be that Van Dyke only contributed his lyrics to the project.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I haven't been able to make sense of it either, in light of those Youtube promotional webisodes for Smile Sessions. Not so much make sense of it, but maybe try to find a way in my mind to come to terms with the fact that the negativity - and it was not perceived negativity, or coming from a slanted viewpoint, or anything like that - but the fact that the negativity we had read and heard all but disappeared for the promotional material, after we had all read things like the Bruce interview and the Al interviews about crawling on the floor and all of it before.

Is it a sense of mea culpa in hindsight, where it's now "hey, yeah, you know this was all great stuff we were hearing" coming from something other than what they had said previously about those same sessions?

It's old news, it's kicking a dead horse, I realize all that, but still...

I'm sure it was a bit of both but different times called for different memories.

But you get little pieces from the guys over the years which are suggestive. I feel like Al was critical of both Heroes and Breakaway (could have just been the latter) about how Brian let the songs down, production-wise. While they might not have said this outright, but I do think the guys did resent Brian a bit for quite a while even though they may have thought as well that he was the greatest genius of all geniuses. But people like Al, Bruce, or Mike did know that Smile was more than just fragments and sound bytes.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Guitar fool and bgas, I am posting on my phone so I CBA to quote u.

Posting stories about exactly the kind of person Brian isnt wont help your argument. if he did display savant levels of memory, it wouldn't be news in 2013. If he did, Brian Wilson is simply an asshole.

But, Brian has been given plenty of opportunity to divulge 'the real meaning'. The 'holy grail'. Whatever. If there was a record to set straight, he has had plenty of opportunity to set it straight. Privately. Darian, van dyke in 03, Boyd and Linnett in 2011. Now, no one knows exactly what Brian said to Coach. He might have told him exactly how smile was supposed to go down and throw in the meaning of life as well. He might have just talked about the sandpit. Brian didn't finish smile for a reason - he had no grand overarching plan that would tie it up. It got away from him. He decided to make Smiley Smile instead.

Van Dyke Parks has been given the same opportunities to reveal certain things, so far: Are we challenging him to open up and reveal those things where he was not only witnessing it but was also an active participant, in studio and at the house?

Here would be my questions though:

Can we ask him why he took a writing credit on Wind Chimes on BWPS despite the fact that it sure seems like he didn't write those lyrics and wasn't credited on Smiley and given that it was the first Smile track recorded sure makes it seem like it was probably a song that Brian had before he partnered up with VDP? Or why he denies writing He Gives Speeches despite the fact that it sure seems like his lyrics, and he did get a credit on She's Goin' Bald and the only reasonable (?) excuse has been that it's Brian doing his best VDP impression (). Can we ask him if he has a great memory of the era, why he couldn't recall the lyrics he more than likely had written for Child is Father? Or the correct melody for Worms? (and probably Holidays).

[The_Holy_Bee]

Wow. The Durrie Parks acetates (he exclaims, very late to the party)! For Smile-heads of a certain vintage, that’s like discovering the Dead Sea Scrolls or... erm... Inside Pop reels.

I’m at once fascinated by the contents – particularly IIGS/Children Were Raised – and relieved, considering the box is already out and we don’t when and if we’ll ever get to hear them, that there aren’t, say, Child with verse vocals or full edits of an early Heroes on there. I’ve also been fascinated by the subsequent resurgence of the “Heroes” discussion, particularly the contributions of Guitarfool and Cam.

Both posters might remember a similar conversation in a thread I started in April or so last year (and no doubt dozens of others) – in it I put some weight on what I termed the “cannibalizing” of album track melodies in the later H&V sessions. Cam’s further observations on this here have been extremely interesting on this score, and “ring true” (how unscientific can you get?) for me at least on several counts.

My only reinterpretation of this would be that instead of a “teaser” for the record, “Part II” might have been a sort of goodbye – an attempt to get a few of the most evocative and appropriate Smile track themes out in some form before moving on.

Thanks to all contributors for a thoroughly bracing, thought-provoking – and civil! – thread. Here’s hoping a digital copy of the D.P.A.s to sneak out somehow.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Can we ask him why he took a writing credit on Wind Chimes on BWPS despite the fact that it sure seems like he didn't write those lyrics and wasn't credited on Smiley and given that it was the first Smile track recorded sure makes it seem like it was probably a song that Brian had before he partnered up with VDP?

But then why is 'Wind Chimes' one of the Van Dyke Parks acetates for sale? 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Can we ask him why he took a writing credit on Wind Chimes on BWPS despite the fact that it sure seems like he didn't write those lyrics and wasn't credited on Smiley and given that it was the first Smile track recorded sure makes it seem like it was probably a song that Brian had before he partnered up with VDP?

But then why is 'Wind Chimes' one of the Van Dyke Parks acetates for sale?  

Ouch! Good question.

You can decide whether or not this is a good response, but I do think that Van Dyke had an interest in the album that extended beyond his lyrics - as witnessed by his very active role in the studio throughout the sessions. I'm sure he would have been eager to hear versions of songs for the album that were near-finished, whether he wrote the lyrics or not.

Any good???

[guitarfool2002]

Can we ask him why he took a writing credit on Wind Chimes on BWPS despite the fact that it sure seems like he didn't write those lyrics and wasn't credited on Smiley and given that it was the first Smile track recorded sure makes it seem like it was probably a song that Brian had before he partnered up with VDP?

But then why is 'Wind Chimes' one of the Van Dyke Parks acetates for sale?  

Ouch! Good question.

You can decide whether or not this is a good response, but I do think that Van Dyke had an interest in the album that extended beyond his lyrics - as witnessed by his very active role in the studio throughout the sessions. I'm sure he would have been eager to hear versions of songs for the album that were near-finished, whether he wrote the lyrics or not.

Any good???

Let me also go out on a limb and add that one of the bigger misconceptions about Smile might be that Van Dyke only contributed his lyrics to the project.

 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Yes. I didn't give you proper credit but I had your previous remarks in mind as well.

[Mikie]

Sure, on those rose-colored Smile video clips that appeared on youtube, Bruce is all, "Oh, such brilliant song bites" and "Teenage symphony to God? What a great concept" etc but here's the same man quoted in Mojo magazine circa 1995:

"There's tracks on the box set that represent not a great lost album but the worst times we ever went through. I listen to them and I don't feel any joy. [...]  Brian degraded us, made us lay down for hours and make barnyard noises, demoralized us, freaked out. I can't tell you a lot of it, it's really f***ed up. He thought it was hilarious, he was stoned and laughing. We hated him then because we didn't know what was happening to him."

He sure seemed pretty mad. So either Bruce has mellowed since then or he merely changed his tune since there was product to push. At any rate, he sure sounds like he has some very distinct memories of various sessions.

Yeah, but how many? The one Smile session you quoted Bruce talking about was the same one that Al talked about in an interview 6 years later (Goldmine?) where he was embarrassed because Brian made him crawl on the floor making animal noises.

What else did Bruce do for his country?

[bgas]

Sure, on those rose-colored Smile video clips that appeared on youtube, Bruce is all, "Oh, such brilliant song bites" and "Teenage symphony to God? What a great concept" etc but here's the same man quoted in Mojo magazine circa 1995:

"There's tracks on the box set that represent not a great lost album but the worst times we ever went through. I listen to them and I don't feel any joy. [...]  Brian degraded us, made us lay down for hours and make barnyard noises, demoralized us, freaked out. I can't tell you a lot of it, it's really f***ed up. He thought it was hilarious, he was stoned and laughing. We hated him then because we didn't know what was happening to him."

He sure seemed pretty mad. So either Bruce has mellowed since then or he merely changed his tune since there was product to push. At any rate, he sure sounds like he has some very distinct memories of various sessions.

Yeah, but how many? The one session you quoted Bruce talking about was the same one that Al talked about in an interview 6 years later (Goldmine?) where he was embarrassed because Brian made him crawl on the floor making animal noises.

I was going to say something very similar Mikie! 
I think in this case it's more likely Bruce was simply repeating what he's "heard" took place, rather than actually being there. Al is guilty of this alot, in that when asked he's often repeating the oft -told versions of events, not what he really remembers, if he even does remember. 
 If there is one BB other than Brian I would want to hear BBs history from,that would be Mike; presuming he could find it in himself to be truthful and not spout his negative  self serving vitriol. 

[Jim V.]

My only reinterpretation of this would be that instead of a “teaser” for the record, “Part II” might have been a sort of goodbye – an attempt to get a few of the most evocative and appropriate Smile track themes out in some form before moving on.

I don't think it was a goodbye though. Let's look. After putting aside "Heroes And Villains", he works on "Vega-Tables". And while working on that he does another version of "Wonderful" and at least that one little "Child Is Father Of The Man" section. I honestly don't think he knew what he was doing as far as the SMiLE material went.

I just don't know if Brian ever truly had a plan post-December 1966. People make it seem like after the "Love to Say Dada" session Brian decided to remake some of the material without using the previously recorded stuff. But he did use a bunch of SMiLE-era instrumentation for the officially released "Heroes And Villains" and even used a SMiLE-era portion of "Vega-Tables" for "Vegetables".

Anyways, I think this era was really fluid and I just wonder if Brian ever made an official decision to truly can SMiLE and to begin work on Smiley Smile or if it was more fluid than that. If it wasn't for Derek Taylor's announcement, I'd say it seems pretty fluid.

[?]

Can we ask him why he took a writing credit on Wind Chimes on BWPS despite the fact that it sure seems like he didn't write those lyrics and wasn't credited on Smiley and given that it was the first Smile track recorded sure makes it seem like it was probably a song that Brian had before he partnered up with VDP?

But then why is 'Wind Chimes' one of the Van Dyke Parks acetates for sale?  

Ouch! Good question.

You can decide whether or not this is a good response, but I do think that Van Dyke had an interest in the album that extended beyond his lyrics - as witnessed by his very active role in the studio throughout the sessions. I'm sure he would have been eager to hear versions of songs for the album that were near-finished, whether he wrote the lyrics or not.

Any good???

VDP does claim authorship of Wind Chimes.  If I recall correctly, the lack of credit on the Smiley Smile version was one of the first things he addressed with Brian when returning to work on BWPS.  I believe he talked about it in Priore's second Smile book.

[The_Holy_Bee]

EDIT: I screwed up in posting, but just to be clear the following is a quote from a post by sweetdudejim:

"I don't think it was a goodbye though. Let's look. After putting aside "Heroes And Villains", he works on "Vega-Tables". And while working on that he does another version of "Wonderful" and at least that one little "Child Is Father Of The Man" section. I honestly don't think he knew what he was doing as far as the SMiLE material went."

[/quote]

Good points there. I'm sure the conception of the thing was, at this stage, in immense and continuous flux (though I still stand by my hypothesis that earlier stages of recording saw an almost fully conceived record in production). Still, as other posters have argued, the earmarking of key (if revised) melodic sections such as "Bicycle Rider" and the "Barnyard Fade" for the single make their ongoing inclusion in an album seem unlikely (at least in their original forms) - unless as Cam suggests "H&V (part two)" was to serve as a kind of teaser for the re-thought record.

As I've argued before, there is practically no contemporary written, anecdotal or recorded evidence that anyone, let alone Brian, had repeating themes or re-use of sections/melodic ideas being in the framework at all until 1967 - which means it's just as likely that "H&V (part two)" was to be a conflated version of/substitute for the possibly problematic "Americana" aspect of the record as the idea that in re-recording them for "H&V", Brian intended any kind of overture/repeating motif structure for the album.

Two of the four other songs you mention, of course, do turn up on Smiley Smile in some form or another, so we can probably assume these two tracks represented paths of least resistance - compared to many of the other Nov/Dec songs.

[Micha]

I don't think it was a goodbye though. Let's look. After putting aside "Heroes And Villains", he works on "Vega-Tables". And while working on that he does another version of "Wonderful" and at least that one little "Child Is Father Of The Man" section.

I guess that CIFOTM section was meant for inclusion in V-T. There's smacking sounds at the end.

Why did he re-record the H&V fade when the re-record sounds just like the damn original (aside from Carl's scat)?

Maybe it was just a quick solution - need a fade to the b side. Just reconfigure the fade to the a side in a subtly different way. So A side has false barnyard fade and b side has the Carl scat version.

More than unlikely IMHO. At the same time Brian rerecorded the fade, he also rerecorded the verses. That would rather fit the story about Brian playing the song to a stranger from the street and then starting from scratch. Obviously, he used neither the new verses nor the new fade.

I don't think I've heard this story, what's it's source?

I don't remember the article, but I think I remember Chuck Britz told that story in 1967 contemplating the released version, like "it's ok now, but you should have heard it six months ago.."

Brian Wilson on the subject of "He Gives Speeches", 1966: "THIS IS GONNA BE SO GREAT I'M NOT KIDDING" (presumably followed with "srsly u guyz" after the fade on the TSS edit)
Brian Wilson on the subject of "He Gives Speeches", 2003: "Naw. Junk that flaming pile of sh*t."

Yeah, but he was on different medication in 1966...

What precedent would Brian have for making a two-sided single?

What precedent is the for lyrics and music like DYLW?

Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

AMEN. People still keep searching for "THE" SMiLE seemingly buried somewhere in the recorded fragments. There isn't such a thing.

[The_Holy_Bee]

EDIT: Have deleted link as Mediafire (reasonably enough) have identified the edit as copyright material.

[Theydon Bois]

i think this came from Al Kooper (not known as a druggy so possibly more reliable than others but this was decades after the event)

You should possibly read his autobiography!

[The Shift]

Just for larfs - another quick edit of the sequence of sections as described by Andy (if I read it right!) and hypothesized by the rest of us (mainly referring to Humble Harv demo). Not necessarily the right takes, in at least one major case inevitably, but all butt-edits and I think quite fun.

 http://www.mediafire.com/?6k5hkfpk8q34hgy

"PERMISSION  DENIED
"Heroes And Villains" by Beach Boys may be available for download from Amazon."

[ash]

i think this came from Al Kooper (not known as a druggy so possibly more reliable than others but this was decades after the event)

You should possibly read his autobiography!

I've been meaning to as he's worked or been involved with some of my favourite musicians.
I'll assume for now that he did inhale.

[Cabinessenceking]

Actually this has probably come up before but I am curious if anyone has any thoughts about considering what Heroes and Villains might have sounded like at particular stages. What might a fall Heroes have sounded like? How about a December version? January? February?

I made an edit of what an early H&V might have sounded like. https://vimeo.com/51757254

Interesting ideas! Do we know for certain that DYLW only evolved into a seperate track later on? It would make sense for it to be an integral part of early concepts Brian had for H&V. Also the Fire intro? IK it's labelled H&V Intro both on the tape box and now later on TSS, but is it certain that this is a H&V fragment? It seems just so unattached from the rest of the H&V ideas Brian had. Did it later become Fire when Brian decided it wasn't going to be featured on H&V and proceeded to record the 2nd part of Fire?

[Cabinessenceking]

Bruce, Al, and Mike's memories of Smile are incomprehensible to me.

Why wasn't Carl interviewed about it more? He was on several track recordings and on all the vocal ones. He was probably the person most connected to the overall project after Brian and VDP themselves.

[seltaeb1012002]

Jules Siegel was one who thought he might have gotten the whole album on acetate back in the day, but they had been lost/stolen. I'm thinking they probably got acetates from some of the comp tapes with some of the various tracks like the ones that still exist.

Thanks for the info. Makes sense, I'm sure it was a hoax. But how freakin wild would it be if somewhere there exists a bunch of vocal mixes we haven't heard before in a semi-completed format. Ahh, to dream.

Actually this has probably come up before but I am curious if anyone has any thoughts about considering what Heroes and Villains might have sounded like at particular stages. What might a fall Heroes have sounded like? How about a December version? January? February?

I made an edit of what an early H&V might have sounded like. https://vimeo.com/51757254

Interesting ideas! Do we know for certain that DYLW only evolved into a seperate track later on? It would make sense for it to be an integral part of early concepts Brian had for H&V. Also the Fire intro? IK it's labelled H&V Intro both on the tape box and now later on TSS, but is it certain that this is a H&V fragment? It seems just so unattached from the rest of the H&V ideas Brian had. Did it later become Fire when Brian decided it wasn't going to be featured on H&V and proceeded to record the 2nd part of Fire?

Thanks. I just based it off of one of Brian's early test mixes. The DYLW section is completely unrelated, sorry, I should've mentioned that. I do, however, like the "part 1 tag" as the end of Heroes..

Either way, it would've been a really weird single.