Beach Boys vs Beatles in the same years

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Right. And my cousin could likewise hate the fact that Pet Sounds is regarded so highly when he finds it uninteresting in comparison to what he considers to be albums deserving of acclaim higher than Pet Sounds.

Perhaps he does?

OK, perhaps he does. And suppose he said it on this board with the frequency that people say that Sgt. Pepper is overrated. Do you think the overwhelming reaction to him would be, "Meh, it's just an opinion as valid as any other"?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

If it is or isn't, it still won't invalidate his opinion . Why are you taking this so personal?

[Mike's Beard]

Right. And my cousin could likewise hate the fact that Pet Sounds is regarded so highly when he finds it uninteresting in comparison to what he considers to be albums deserving of acclaim higher than Pet Sounds.

Perhaps he does?

OK, perhaps he does. And suppose he said it on this board with the frequency that people say that Sgt. Pepper is overrated. Do you think the overwhelming reaction to him would be, "Meh, it's just an opinion as valid as any other"?

Hard to say. I know that after a while I would start to wonder what he was doing on a Beach Boys msg board.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm not taking it personal at all. All I keep seeing is people taking it personally that The Beatles are given so much acclaim. I'm attempting to demonstrate the weakness of these ongoing arguments against The Beatles because it rests on a fundamentally paradoxical premise - that people overrate The Beatles because their subjectivity prevents them from seeing the objective truth that there was better music being made.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I don't take it personally either; I just don't like their music nearly as much as most other people do. I just don't understand their popularity to the extent that they are popular.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I don't take it personally either; I just don't like their music nearly as much as most other people do. I just don't understand their popularity to the extent that they are popular.

Well, I'm sure I could offer an explanation in the same way that I could offer an explanation as to why Shakespeare, Picasso, and others are considered to be the best of their respective fields but if you don't like them then no explanation no matter how accurate would ever been satisfying.

[Mike's Beard]

I'm not taking it personal at all. All I keep seeing is people taking it personally that The Beatles are given so much acclaim. I'm attempting to demonstrate the weakness of these ongoing arguments against The Beatles because it rests on a fundamentally paradoxical premise - that people overrate The Beatles because their subjectivity prevents them from seeing the objective truth that there was better music being made.

If push comes to shove I'd have to admit that I think this often the case. But that would be very presuming of me to flat out say this to a Beatles hardcore fan. I can't possibly second guess what someone else is experiencing when that are listening to a Beatles record so I won't. I can only give my personal experience of having listened to Sgt Pepper since my early teens, thought it was pretty good at the time then discovered a ton of records I consider a zillion times better since.

Of the top off my head from 1967 alone;

Love - Forever Changes
The Monkees - Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn & Jones Ltd.
The Mothers of Invention - Absolutely Free
The Byrds - The Notorious Byrd Brothers
The Doors - Strange Days
Jimi Hendrix - Are You Experienced
The Rolling Stones - Their Satanic Majesties Request  
Harry Nilsson - Pandemonium Shadow Show
Gorilla - Bonzo Dog Band
And ironically enough  The Beatles - Magical Mystery Tour

[hypehat]

I don't see why it has to be an Either Or kind of thing. You can love both bands, equally or not, without it becoming some grand statement of overall quality. None of us are responsible for the critical canon, and we shouldn't have to answer for it.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm not taking it personal at all. All I keep seeing is people taking it personally that The Beatles are given so much acclaim. I'm attempting to demonstrate the weakness of these ongoing arguments against The Beatles because it rests on a fundamentally paradoxical premise - that people overrate The Beatles because their subjectivity prevents them from seeing the objective truth that there was better music being made.

If push comes to shove I'd have to admit that I think this often the case. But that would be very presuming of me to flat out say this to a Beatles hardcore fan. I can't possibly second guess what someone else is experiencing when that are listening to a Beatles record so I won't. I can only give my personal experience of having listened to Sgt Pepper since my early teens, thought it was pretty good at the time then discovered a ton of records I consider a zillion times better since.

Of the top off my head from 1967 alone;

Love - Forever Changes
The Monkees - Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn & Jones Ltd.
The Mothers of Invention - Absolutely Free
The Byrds - The Notorious Byrd Brothers
The Doors - Strange Days
Jimi Hendrix - Are You Experienced
The Rolling Stones - Their Satanic Majesties Request  
Harry Nilsson - Pandemonium Shadow Show
Gorilla - Bonzo Dog Band
And ironically enough  The Beatles - Magical Mystery Tour

OK - but like I said it doesn't quite work as an argument. You can't say that better is subjective and then go on to name other albums that are better.

Personally - I love many of the albums you mentioned in particular Forever Changes, Pisces, Byrds, Experienced, Satanic, Pandemonium, and Magical. Yet despite that I still prefer Sgt. Pepper to any in that list that you "consider a zillion times better."

[AndrewHickey]

If push comes to shove I'd have to admit that I think this often the case. But that would be very presuming of me to flat out say this to a Beatles hardcore fan. I can't possibly second guess what someone else is experiencing when that are listening to a Beatles record so I won't. I can only give my personal experience of having listened to Sgt Pepper since my early teens, thought it was pretty good at the time then discovered a ton of records I consider a zillion times better since.

Of the top off my head from 1967 alone;

Love - Forever Changes
The Monkees - Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn & Jones Ltd.
The Mothers of Invention - Absolutely Free
The Byrds - The Notorious Byrd Brothers
The Doors - Strange Days
Jimi Hendrix - Are You Experienced
The Rolling Stones - Their Satanic Majesties Request  
Harry Nilsson - Pandemonium Shadow Show
Gorilla - Bonzo Dog Band
And ironically enough  The Beatles - Magical Mystery Tour

I'm as huge a Beatles fan as they come, and I'd agree with you that at least six of those (Pisces, Absolutely Free, Pandemonium Shadow Show, Gorilla and Magical Mystery Tour) are better than Sgt Pepper. And I'd add in The 5000 Spirits or the Layers of the Onion, And His Mother Called Him Bill, Francis Albert Sinatra & Antonio Carlos Jobim, Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, Something Else By The Kinks... and 1967 wasn't even a particularly good year for music.

I've never seen what was considered so special about Sgt Pepper. There's some really, really good stuff on there (as there is on every Beatles album), but I might go so far as to say that Pepper was the Beatles' *worst* album...

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'd say I prefer Something Else to Sgt. Pepper's too. Of course I'm not prepared to take critics to task for my particular point of view.

[hypehat]

If push comes to shove I'd have to admit that I think this often the case. But that would be very presuming of me to flat out say this to a Beatles hardcore fan. I can't possibly second guess what someone else is experiencing when that are listening to a Beatles record so I won't. I can only give my personal experience of having listened to Sgt Pepper since my early teens, thought it was pretty good at the time then discovered a ton of records I consider a zillion times better since.

Of the top off my head from 1967 alone;

Love - Forever Changes
The Monkees - Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn & Jones Ltd.
The Mothers of Invention - Absolutely Free
The Byrds - The Notorious Byrd Brothers
The Doors - Strange Days
Jimi Hendrix - Are You Experienced
The Rolling Stones - Their Satanic Majesties Request  
Harry Nilsson - Pandemonium Shadow Show
Gorilla - Bonzo Dog Band
And ironically enough  The Beatles - Magical Mystery Tour

I'm as huge a Beatles fan as they come, and I'd agree with you that at least six of those (Pisces, Absolutely Free, Pandemonium Shadow Show, Gorilla and Magical Mystery Tour) are better than Sgt Pepper. And I'd add in The 5000 Spirits or the Layers of the Onion, And His Mother Called Him Bill, Francis Albert Sinatra & Antonio Carlos Jobim, Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, Something Else By The Kinks... and 1967 wasn't even a particularly good year for music.

I've never seen what was considered so special about Sgt Pepper. There's some really, really good stuff on there (as there is on every Beatles album), but I might go so far as to say that Pepper was the Beatles' *worst* album...

Que?

That honour surely belongs to the fucking dreadful Beatles For Sale.

[AndrewHickey]

I've never seen what was considered so special about Sgt Pepper. There's some really, really good stuff on there (as there is on every Beatles album), but I might go so far as to say that Pepper was the Beatles' *worst* album...

Que?

That honour surely belongs to the fucking dreadful Beatles For Sale.

Heh. That's the response everyone has, pretty much, when I say that. I have a lot more time for that album than anyone else I know, mostly because it was the first Beatles album I owned of my own and I played it to death when I was seven. Even despite that, though, I'd argue that any album with I Don't Want To Spoil The Party, Every Little Thing, What You're Doing, No Reply, I'm A Loser and Eight Days A Week could hardly be called "fucking dreadful". The covers let it down, but even there I don't think they're as bad as all that -- even Mr Moonlight, for all the cheesiness of the Hammond part, has one of Lennon's best vocals.

But I accept that this is very much a minority opinion.

[hypehat]

Well, I could have easily said Let It Be, were it not for the same reasons you said, so I understand 

[EgoHanger1966]

No Reply
I'm A Loser
Baby's In Black
I'll Follow The Sun
Eight Days A Week
What You're Doing
I Don't Wanna Spoil The Party
Every Little Thing

How can you call Beatles For Sale a dreadful album? They were still at the top of their game!!! What BFS lacks is a skillful choice of covers (I do love "Mr Moonlight", though, and it's my favorite of the covers on that album).

[Magic Transistor Radio]

... and 1967 wasn't even a particularly good year for music.

http://youtu.be/GT0AEdWJ3FQ

[hypehat]

Haha Ego, it just really doesn't hang together for me - I'd listen to those songs individually and think they're ok, but I'd never listen to Beatles For Sale as a whole. Only Eight Days A Week, Every Little Thing, I'm A Loser and No Reply do it for me as huge Beatles tracks for me, tbh. The rest sort of seem forced, which I totally get as they were the busiest men in the world. I do like the Words Of Love cover, but then that's just one of those songs.

[Shady]

Apart from "What you're doing" and "I'll Follow the sun" none of those songs do anything for me.

I always found that album and most Beatles stuff pre-rubber soul pretty boring

[EgoHanger1966]

I always found that album and most Beatles stuff pre-rubber soul pretty boring

I'd take Hard Day's Night or With The Beatles over any post-'65 album.....but that's just me. I think The Beatles hit their zenith in late 63 into 64...when they took over the world pretty much. You can hear their persona on those records. The one-two-three punch of It Won't Be Long/All I've Gotta Do/All My Loving on WTB, I don't think I've heard that much enthusiasm on any record by anyone!!!!! That's what makes the Beatles so special to me, no one else could have made the sounds of those records except those four people at that exact time.

Please Mr. Postman, Beatles version, is my all time favorite song. Just the way it sounds, I'm in love with it. You don't have to explain merseybeat to someone, just play that record.

I enjoy the whole Beatles catalog, but Pepper and The White Album (just as examples) will always fall short of their earlier work because of that almost undiscribable magic I feel on those early ones.

[hypehat]

A Hard Days Night is so good, that and Help! (I know, it commits many of the cardinal sins I damn Beatles For Sale for, but the overall effect is better on Help, they sound like they give more of a damn on the covers and sh*t material, and it has eternal jams such as Ticket To Ride, The Night Before, You're Gonna Lose That Girl, I've Just Seen A Face.... I've Just Seen A Face, goddamnit!) that are the epitome of that early Beatle sound. 

[SMiLE-addict]

OK, when you're doing these, you have to take into account that the White Album was a double album and, thus, should be compared to not one, but *two* Beach Boys albums.

Similarly, Smile had enough material for ~1-1/2 albums, maybe more, so maybe you could compare it to 2 Beatles albums. Or maybe do Smile & Smiley Smile vs 2 Beatles albums (and mix and match the 2 BB albums since they were "almost" the same album).

I personally wouldn't bother including "minor" albums like Party!, Christmas album and Yellow Submarine. Same with concert/live albums.

Finally, the BB had a year's head-start over the Beatles in turning out albums, so I'd exclude Surfin' Safari.

The biggest problem, of course, is that the BB released more albums in the same amount of time that the Beatles did.

Here's my list. I will use only the Beatles' UK discography. "Excess" BB albums without Beatles analogs will be left without a match and with an *, and that's the case with one Beatles album, too.

(Spring 1963) Surfin' U.S.A. - Please Please Me
(Fall 1963) Surfer Girl - With The Beatles
*Little Deuce Coupe
(Spring 1964) Shut Down Volume 2 - Hard Day's Night
(2nd half of 1964) All Summer Long - Beatles For Sale
*Today!
(Summer 1965) Summer Days - Help!
(Late 1965-early 1966) Pet Sounds - Rubber Soul
(mid-1966 to mid-1967 "High Psychedelic Era") Smile/Smiley Smile - Revolver/Sgt Pepper
* not sure what to do with Magical Mystery Tour
(1968-ish "Immediate Post-Psychedelic Era") Wild Honey/Friends vs 'White Album'
(1969) - Let It Be vs 20/20
(1970) - Abbey Road vs Sunflower

The material on Let It Be was recorded prior to Abbey Road, so I've put it in the 1969 category instead of 1970. But the last 2 pairings you could easily switch around.

[Myk Luhv]

If you've not yet done so, go read the Internet-infamous essay by Piero Scaruffi on The Beatles. Choice quotes include:

Beatles' "aryan" music removed any trace of black music from rock and roll: it replaced syncopated african rhythm with linear western melody, and lusty negro attitudes with cute white-kid smiles.

The Beatles belonged, like the Beach Boys (whom they emulated for most of their career), to the era of the vocal band. In such a band the technique of the instrument was not as important as the chorus. Undoubtedly skilled at composing choruses, they availed themselves of producer George Martin (head of the Parlophone since 1956), to embellish those choruses with arrangements more and more eccentric.

Rather than an album of psychedelic music (compared to which it actually sounds retro), Sgt. Pepper was the Beatles' answer to the sophistication of Pet Sounds, the masterpiece by their rivals, the Beach Boys, released a year and three months before. The Beatles had always been obsessed by the Beach Boys. They had copied their multi-part harmonies, their melodic style and their carefree attitude. Through their entire career, from 1963 to 1968, the Beatles actually followed the Beach Boys within a year or two, including the formation of Apple Records, which came almost exactly one year after the birth of Brother Records. Pet Sounds had caused an uproar because it delivered the simple melodies of surf music through the artistic sophistication of the studio. So, following the example of Pet Sounds, the Beatles recorded, from February to May 1967, Sgt. Pepper, disregarding two important factors: first that Pet Sounds had been arranged, mixed and produced by Brian Wilson and not by an external producer like George Martin, and second that, as always, they were late. They began assembling Sgt. Pepper a year after Pet Sounds had hit the charts, and after dozens of records had already been influenced by it.

Maybe Scaruffi posts here too!

[Chocolate Shake Man]

There really is a startling amount of attention paid towards The Beatles from within The Beach Boys camp. And I don't say this because I think one is so vastly better than the other but because it perpetuates such a poorly informed understanding of how the music was being inspired at the time. I mean, yes, the two bands influenced each other. But the whole Beatles/Beach Boys conversation has entirely overshadowed other potentially interesting conversations. Rather than seeing The Beach Boys within a context of 60s rock and roll, why not consider them through the lens of Californian music. Doing that you can see how, say, the drive towards something like Pet Sounds may have been motivated not by Rubber Soul but by what was a landmark California album - Mr. Tambourine Man, which was a major post-British Invasion attempt to re-locate a particularly American sound. From that point we can look at an album like Pet Sounds as part of a particularly American movement rather than merely an attempt to capture the magic of a British record. And let's not forget that Brian would have been particularly inspired, motivated, and challenged by the groups that were around him - Byrds, Love, Mamas and Papas, etc.

[Shady]

That Scaruffi is on to something

[Mike's Beard]

OK - but like I said it doesn't quite work as an argument. You can't say that better is subjective and then go on to name other albums that are better.

Note that what I wrote was albums 'I' consider better. The fact that Pepper may pretty much outsell most of that list combined is proof that a majority of people think otherwise.

Something Else By The Kinks...

I did consider putting Something Else By The Kinks on the list but felt the Dave Davies songs let it down somewhat. Ray must have been in a good mood that day because he had much better tunes of his own lying around.

Apart from "What you're doing" and "I'll Follow the sun" none of those songs do anything for me.

I always found that album and most Beatles stuff pre-rubber soul pretty boring

I find the first two of their albums incredibly bland. A Hard Days Night had them upping their game considerably, but much of their catalogue is hit 'n miss for me.