Some early facts and gifts from Smile Sessions

[Micha]

Re: The credit for Van Dyke's publishing company "Safe And Sane".

The current ASCAP listing of Smile related song titles logged under Safe And Sane music admin. by "Bughouse" in Los Angeles looks like this:

Barnyard
Child Is Father To The Man
Do You Like Worms
Fire
I Love To Say DaDa
I'm In Great Shape
In Blue Hawaii
On A Holiday
Roll Plymouth Rock
Song For Children

Interestingly, both "Roll Plymouth Rock" and "Do You Like Worms" are on that list. So Al was right after all when he said "That's not Worms!" It was "Roll Plymouth Rock"! 

[desmondo]

Some, such as the link between Heroes and Worms just won't be possible but others are easier. Maybe they'll edit child so that the intro segues into SU. I just don't know. Does seem odd that he'd mention it.

The H&V > Worms is easier than the Child > Surf's Up because these last two are in very distant keys (that's what the 2004 coda stands for, to build a way to arrive on the 5th degree of Surf's Up key).

Maybe something vintage exists for some of those orchestral segues.

In E.G. do the bootlegs really contain all the "orchstral" H&V sections and stuff ever recorded ? I mean the only "full orchestra w/ strings" section we know of H&V is the coda (that ends with woodblocks and the harmonica).

On the "sessionography", the only H&V session that could match with such a large amount of personnel is the Dec, 19, 1966. It says the session lasts 5 hours. Did the wrecking crew needed 5 hours to put 25 seconds of music on tape ? Nah, I'm pretty sure other orchstral stuff has been recorded.  

Good point - anyone else have any more info on this Dec 19 session which happens to be my birthday??

[JMZ]

anyone else have any more info on this Dec 19 session which happens to be my birthday??

I've found this info on "The SMiLE Shop" sessionography page here: http://www.angelfire.com/mn/smileshop/navpage.html

It seems there have been another "crowded" session for Heroes and Villains  on Feb. 17th, 1967.

But again this is all speculations, I'm sure some members here can tell exactly what's been recorded during each session.

[hypehat]

There are a LOT of takes  for 'Western Theme' (that's what you mean, right?) on the boot, and Brian needed to teach a string and a horn section their parts, as well as the myriad other personnel there, so five hours doesn't seem too farfetched. And if that tape has made it into bootleggers hands, why not the rest of the stuff from the session?

[JMZ]

There are a LOT of takes  for 'Western Theme' (that's what you mean, right?)

Exactly

And if that tape has made it into bootleggers hands, why not the rest of the stuff from the session?

If I'm not wrong, back in the 60s,  multitrack tape lenght was approx 15/20 mins. I don't know how many takes from "the western theme" have been recorded. But assuming that only 1/5th of the session has been recorded (the rest is just "learning/rehearsing"), that's one hour, that's 3 or 4 reels. Maybe the bootleggers got hands on only one or two of the tapes from this session (I know, pessimistic members will fall on me on that one)  

[Andrew G. Doe]

There are a LOT of takes  for 'Western Theme' (that's what you mean, right?) on the boot, and Brian needed to teach a string and a horn section their parts, as well as the myriad other personnel there, so five hours doesn't seem too farfetched. And if that tape has made it into bootleggers hands, why not the rest of the stuff from the session?

Five hours for some of them, three and a half for others.

Also, not all were musicians.

Hal Blaine - drums, leader
Diane Rovell - contractor
Arnold Belnick - violin
Harold Benke - ?
Norman Botnick - viola
Charles Britz - engineer
Joseph DiFiore - violin, viola
Jesse Erlich - cello
Harry Hyams - viola
Armand Kapreff - cello
Raymond Kelley - cello
William Kuraseh - violin
Leonard Malarsky - violin
Alexander Neiman - viola
William Pitman - guitar
Emmet Sergeant - cello
Joseph Saxon - cello
Sidney Sharp - violin

[buddhahat]

Some, such as the link between Heroes and Worms just won't be possible but others are easier. Maybe they'll edit child so that the intro segues into SU. I just don't know. Does seem odd that he'd mention it.

The H&V > Worms is easier than the Child > Surf's Up because these last two are in very distant keys (that's what the 2004 coda stands for, to build a way to arrive on the 5th degree of Surf's Up key).

Maybe something vintage exists for some of those orchestral segues.

In E.G. do the bootlegs really contain all the "orchstral" H&V sections and stuff ever recorded ? I mean the only "full orchestra w/ strings" section we know of H&V is the coda (that ends with woodblocks and the harmonica).

On the "sessionography", the only H&V session that could match with such a large amount of personnel is the Dec, 19, 1966. It says the session lasts 5 hours. Did the wrecking crew needed 5 hours to put 25 seconds of music on tape ? Nah, I'm pretty sure other orchstral stuff has been recorded.  

I didn't realise Child and SU were in different keys so you're right - wouldn't work.

H&V and Worms are also in imcompatible keys though, hence the link section that was devised for BWPS that is a variation on the 'Brother John' melody fom SU.

Of course there may be a vintage link section to segue H&V into Worms, but I think the chances are pretty small to say the least!

I just think Mark L meant that all the segues are represented in the sessions inasmuch as they are all based on existing Smile songs.

As far as Western Theme goes, its other name is Prelude to Fade, and based on this name, I suspect it was to precede one of the various fades Brian recorded for H&V. Either Tag to Part 1, Barnyard, False Barnyard (Cantina fade, or the re-record with carl's scatting vocals), or the minor key bicycle rider fade as was used on the eventual 45. My guess is prelude to Fade was to be followed by one of the versions of False Barnyard.

[desmondo]

Some, such as the link between Heroes and Worms just won't be possible but others are easier. Maybe they'll edit child so that the intro segues into SU. I just don't know. Does seem odd that he'd mention it.

The H&V > Worms is easier than the Child > Surf's Up because these last two are in very distant keys (that's what the 2004 coda stands for, to build a way to arrive on the 5th degree of Surf's Up key).

Maybe something vintage exists for some of those orchestral segues.

In E.G. do the bootlegs really contain all the "orchstral" H&V sections and stuff ever recorded ? I mean the only "full orchestra w/ strings" section we know of H&V is the coda (that ends with woodblocks and the harmonica).

On the "sessionography", the only H&V session that could match with such a large amount of personnel is the Dec, 19, 1966. It says the session lasts 5 hours. Did the wrecking crew needed 5 hours to put 25 seconds of music on tape ? Nah, I'm pretty sure other orchstral stuff has been recorded.  

I didn't realise Child and SU were in different keys so you're right - wouldn't work.

H&V and Worms are also in imcompatible keys though, hence the link section that was devised for BWPS that is a variation on the 'Brother John' melody fom SU.

Of course there may be a vintage link section to segue H&V into Worms, but I think the chances are pretty small to say the least!

I just think Mark L meant that all the segues are represented in the sessions inasmuch as they are all based on existing Smile songs.

As far as Western Theme goes, its other name is Prelude to Fade, and based on this name, I suspect it was to precede one of the various fades Brian recorded for H&V. Either Tag to Part 1, Barnyard, False Barnyard (Cantina fade, or the re-record with carl's scatting vocals), or the minor key bicycle rider fade as was used on the eventual 45. My guess is prelude to Fade was to be followed by one of the versions of False Barnyard.

This is one of the joys of Smile - what goes where and judging by various fan mixes the permutations are just about endless

Tobias Bernsard did an excellent musical breakdown on the Smile Shop - its the first article under the Essays tab http://www.angelfire.com/mn/smileshop/navpage.html and is very very very good

[JMZ]

My guess is prelude to Fade was to be followed by one of the versions of False Barnyard.

So far, the "fade" I heard that works best right after the "Western Coda" is the "dumb whistle" ending in a trashy echo. It sounds like something/someone's drowning in the sea (maybe the villains ?) where the Mayflower lands nonchalantly on Plymouth Rock.  

[guitarfool2002]

There are a LOT of takes  for 'Western Theme' (that's what you mean, right?) on the boot, and Brian needed to teach a string and a horn section their parts, as well as the myriad other personnel there, so five hours doesn't seem too farfetched. And if that tape has made it into bootleggers hands, why not the rest of the stuff from the session?

Five hours for some of them, three and a half for others.

Also, not all were musicians.

Hal Blaine - drums, leader
Diane Rovell - contractor
Arnold Belnick - violin
Harold Benke - ?
Norman Botnick - viola
Charles Britz - engineer
Joseph DiFiore - violin, viola
Jesse Erlich - cello
Harry Hyams - viola
Armand Kapreff - cello
Raymond Kelley - cello
William Kuraseh - violin
Leonard Malarsky - violin
Alexander Neiman - viola
William Pitman - guitar
Emmet Sergeant - cello
Joseph Saxon - cello
Sidney Sharp - violin

Probably not but I have to ask: Is this a complete list from an AFM sheet? If I'm thinking of the same session as the musicians listed here - the one which ends on a horn player overblowing the last note after the woodblock/harmonica counterpoint - there are a few musicians missing from the contract including harmonica and horn.

And again if I'm thinking of the same fragment of music, Brian at one point on those sessions calls down to Van Dyke who is apparently on the studio floor for the session. I always thought that fragment was one of the best pieces recorded for Smile, just terrific, but then I also thought elements of it sounded more like some of Van Dyke's own film music than Brian's unique sounds. I think there are parts of Smile where Van Dyke contributed musically more than some including Van Dyke might say, whether it happened on this track is anyone's guess.

[hypehat]

Van Dyke's on piano, iirc. And yeah, that can't be the full list. Although AFM sheets are rife with discrepancies, so that could explain the lack of a horn or harmonica player. Or bass. And I think I hear Pohlman in there with his deeeeeeep voice,. He also calls out to a Gene, playing the slide whistle and things, not on that list.


Also, the most infuriating thing about the session is that right at the start he says there are going to be vocals on it! 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Van Dyke's on piano, iirc. And yeah, that can't be the full list. Although AFM sheets are rife with discrepancies, so that could explain the lack of a horn or harmonica player. Or bass. And I think I hear Pohlman in there with his deeeeeeep voice,. He also calls out to a Gene, playing the slide whistle and things, not on that list.


Also, the most infuriating thing about the session is that right at the start he says there are going to be vocals on it! 

Maybe the date of 12/19/66 assigned the session you're talking about is wrong ?

[guitarfool2002]

Van Dyke's on piano, iirc. And yeah, that can't be the full list. Although AFM sheets are rife with discrepancies, so that could explain the lack of a horn or harmonica player. Or bass. And I think I hear Pohlman in there with his deeeeeeep voice,. He also calls out to a Gene, playing the slide whistle and things, not on that list.


Also, the most infuriating thing about the session is that right at the start he says there are going to be vocals on it! 

Maybe the date of 12/19/66 assigned the session you're talking about is wrong ?

I was thinking the same thing: The musicians listed would seem to be for a string overdub or "sweetening" session for a track, since a handful of the key musicians heard playing lead roles on that tape aren't listed.

Of all the sections and fragments of Smile I've heard, the one we're discussing is one of the most awesome little fragments of music I've ever heard. For the record...

[desmondo]

Van Dyke's on piano, iirc. And yeah, that can't be the full list. Although AFM sheets are rife with discrepancies, so that could explain the lack of a horn or harmonica player. Or bass. And I think I hear Pohlman in there with his deeeeeeep voice,. He also calls out to a Gene, playing the slide whistle and things, not on that list.


Also, the most infuriating thing about the session is that right at the start he says there are going to be vocals on it! 

Maybe the date of 12/19/66 assigned the session you're talking about is wrong ?

I was thinking the same thing: The musicians listed would seem to be for a string overdub or "sweetening" session for a track, since a handful of the key musicians heard playing lead roles on that tape aren't listed.

Of all the sections and fragments of Smile I've heard, the one we're discussing is one of the most awesome little fragments of music I've ever heard. For the record...

Awesome is just the right word

[guitarfool2002]

He also calls out to a Gene, playing the slide whistle and things, not on that list.

That would most likely be Gene Estes, on percussion, and he'd have a "bag of tricks" like bells and whistles on a session just like Hal Blaine demonstrated his slide whistles and other noisemakers which he used on Pet Sounds and Smile. Very cool stuff. Here's a photo of Brian with Gene (smoking a cig in the middle) playing mallets at Gold Star near the end of the Smile sessions, and I lightened the photo but still can't identify the man sitting in the chair to the far right of the shot.

[JMZ]

Maybe the date of 12/19/66 assigned the session you're talking about is wrong ?

It's certainly wrong, I've droped that date due to the amount of musicians it counts and your list tells most of them are strings players. The only H&V section I know with so much strings in it is this "Western Theme". So it was my conclusion it's been recorded during this session. Harmonica, bass and the big ending horn could've been overdubbed later maybe ?

[guitarfool2002]

Maybe the date of 12/19/66 assigned the session you're talking about is wrong ?

It's certainly wrong, I've droped that date due to the amount of musicians it counts and your list tells most of them are strings players. The only H&V section I know with so much strings in it is this "Western Theme". So it was my conclusion it's been recorded during this session. Harmonica, bass and the big ending horn could've been overdubbed later maybe ?

The session tapes have all those musicians in the studio at the same time, so those parts were not overdubs. However, there are other Heroes fragments with strings, including the "Barnshine" fade-out bit where the strings are playing pizzicato rather than bowing, and a few others including the one where Carl is scat-singing over the track. I'm thinking the dates got mixed up or the session listed was for one of the handful of other Heroes bits with strings.

[guitarfool2002]

And notice the two old-school mics being used in that photo: EV666 dynamic and RCA 78 ribbon. I love those studio photos, and I hope the upcoming box set has some we haven't seen! And you also don't see that angle of that studio room in photos too often - the control room is behind Gene, the clock hanging over it. Too bad you can't see who was hanging out in there through the glass.

[Andrew G. Doe]

He also calls out to a Gene, playing the slide whistle and things, not on that list.

That would most likely be Gene Estes, on percussion, and he'd have a "bag of tricks" like bells and whistles on a session just like Hal Blaine demonstrated his slide whistles and other noisemakers which he used on Pet Sounds and Smile. Very cool stuff. Here's a photo of Brian with Gene (smoking a cig in the middle) playing mallets at Gold Star near the end of the Smile sessions, and I lightened the photo but still can't identify the man sitting in the chair to the far right of the shot.

Well, given it's Gold Star and the clock says 4.20pm and Gene Estes is there, the session could be:

11/28/66 (Fire); Lyle Ritz, Diane Rovell, Arnold Belnick, Norman Botnick, Joseph DiTollio, Jesse Erlich, Gene Estes, James Gordon, William Green, James Horn, Plas Johnson, Carol Kaye, Lawrence Levine, Leonard Marsky, Jay Migliori, Alexander Neiman, William Pitman
11/29/66 (Great Shape/Friday Night): William Pitman, Diane Rovell, Gene Estes, James Gordon, Carol Kaye, Lawrence Levine, Lyle Ritz
5/16/67 (Love To Say Da Da): Hal Blaine, Dianne Rovell, Gene P. Estes (bells, Perc. Piano), James M. Hilton, William Pitman, Lyle Ritz, Michel Rubini
5/18/67 (Da Da): M.R. Pohlman, Dianne Rovell, Frank A. DeVita, Gene P. Estes, William E. Green (piccolo and whistle), James M. Hilton, Jay Migliori (Piccolo and Whistle), William Pitman, Bass and Gut String Gtm.), Melvin Pollan, Michel Rubini (maybe - no time given)

Looks like Hal on the left, so if it is,  that cuts out the 5/18/67 and 11/29/66 dates and "Fire" too. Looks like May 16th 1967.

[guitarfool2002]

He also calls out to a Gene, playing the slide whistle and things, not on that list.

That would most likely be Gene Estes, on percussion, and he'd have a "bag of tricks" like bells and whistles on a session just like Hal Blaine demonstrated his slide whistles and other noisemakers which he used on Pet Sounds and Smile. Very cool stuff. Here's a photo of Brian with Gene (smoking a cig in the middle) playing mallets at Gold Star near the end of the Smile sessions, and I lightened the photo but still can't identify the man sitting in the chair to the far right of the shot.

Well, given it's Gold Star and the clock says 4.20pm and Gene Estes is there, the session could be:

11/28/66 (Fire); Lyle Ritz, Diane Rovell, Arnold Belnick, Norman Botnick, Joseph DiTollio, Jesse Erlich, Gene Estes, James Gordon, William Green, James Horn, Plas Johnson, Carol Kaye, Lawrence Levine, Leonard Marsky, Jay Migliori, Alexander Neiman, William Pitman
11/29/66 (Great Shape/Friday Night): William Pitman, Diane Rovell, Gene Estes, James Gordon, Carol Kaye, Lawrence Levine, Lyle Ritz
5/16/67 (Love To Say Da Da): Hal Blaine, Dianne Rovell, Gene P. Estes (bells, Perc. Piano), James M. Hilton, William Pitman, Lyle Ritz, Michel Rubini
5/18/67 (Da Da): M.R. Pohlman, Dianne Rovell, Frank A. DeVita, Gene P. Estes, William E. Green (piccolo and whistle), James M. Hilton, Jay Migliori (Piccolo and Whistle), William Pitman, Bass and Gut String Gtm.), Melvin Pollan, Michel Rubini (maybe - no time given)

Looks like Hal on the left, so if it is,  that cuts out the 5/18/67 and 11/29/66 dates and "Fire" too. Looks like May 16th 1967.

That sounds like the one: May 16th! Listed on that date is "James M. Hilton": he was an engineer at Gold Star who worked on the Buffalo Springfield album at Gold Star, among other credits. Taking a wild shot in the dark and not having another photo of Hilton in front of me, I'll say that *could* be the guy sitting in the chair to the right. Pure speculation.

[Catbirdman]

Good point - anyone else have any more info on this Dec 19 session which happens to be my birthday??

Wow, it's my birthday too. Hardly worth a reply just for that but there you go.

[juggler]

I agree and disagree with your interpretation. When Mark said blueprint, he was talking disc 1 only. So, all of the tracks and segues on BWPS will be on disc 1, but he didn't mention the sequence. This is where I think there could be some differences, especially if they try to reproduce The Elements section. This also seems to mean that Look, Holidays, and I Love To Say Dada will be a part of Smile. We'll see in about 4 months.

Or read in about 3 weeks, perhaps.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Mojo special edition contains a lot of details about will and won't be included.  They're promising "the full story," so we'll see.

Seeing who's written the 'full story' article (not Dom)... I seriously doubt that.

Who's written it?   I haven't heard...

[18thofMay]

May 16th, two days before it all ended!

[smile-holland]

May 16th, two days before it all ended!

it coud be worse.... I was born on May 18th.... the day that it all ended (and not the 21st of May 2011  )

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Of course there may be a vintage link section to segue H&V into Worms, but I think the chances are pretty small to say the least!

I think there is. Bridge To Indians, on the H&V sessions CD. Usually it's the familiar rising vocal line, but there is one version that then goes into a chord, that links perfectly into Worms . And Worms was about indians, or mentions them.

I used it on my mix of H&V, and it works just fine.