Some early facts and gifts from Smile Sessions

[desmondo]

For what it's worth, the order of the two songs (A Side/ B Side) is the same as the track sequence on BWPS  

Nice spot! 

Coincidence maybe, but perhaps another indicator of the looming presence of BWPS over this box ...

...which was plainly stated by ML in his interview - BWPS = template

Yes apologies - I don't actually know what my point was above. This upcoming Smile box has me waffling like no other BB related event so far!

Me toooooo !!!!!

[guitarfool2002]

Re: The credit for Van Dyke's publishing company "Safe And Sane".

The current ASCAP listing of Smile related song titles logged under Safe And Sane music admin. by "Bughouse" in Los Angeles looks like this:

Barnyard
Child Is Father To The Man
Do You Like Worms
Fire
I Love To Say DaDa
I'm In Great Shape
In Blue Hawaii
On A Holiday
Roll Plymouth Rock
Song For Children


No listing for Cabinessence, which surprises me. Some of those titles are also more BWPS-centric than Smile 1966-67 as will appear on the box set. I speculated a few pages ago that *perhaps* some credits were renegotiated for this upcoming release, but I'd think the ASCAP list would reflect that as it doesn't take too long for additions or changes to appear, at least in my experience.

Hmmm.

[hypehat]

Interesting that both 'I Love To Say Dada' AND 'In Blue Hawaii' are on that list.... unless he wrote the 'Hah-Wahs' 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Re: The credit for Van Dyke's publishing company "Safe And Sane".

The current ASCAP listing of Smile related song titles logged under Safe And Sane music admin. by "Bughouse" in Los Angeles looks like this:

Barnyard
Child Is Father To The Man
Do You Like Worms
Fire
I Love To Say DaDa
I'm In Great Shape
In Blue Hawaii
On A Holiday
Roll Plymouth Rock
Song For Children


No listing for Cabinessence, which surprises me. Some of those titles are also more BWPS-centric than Smile 1966-67 as will appear on the box set. I speculated a few pages ago that *perhaps* some credits were renegotiated for this upcoming release, but I'd think the ASCAP list would reflect that as it doesn't take too long for additions or changes to appear, at least in my experience.

Hmmm.

According to the back of the CD jewel case, the following songs carry a VDP/Safe & Sane credit:

Roll Plymouth Rock
Barnyard
Cabin Essence
Song For Children
Chil Is Father Of The Man
I'm In Great Shape
On A Holiday
In Blue Hawaii

"H&V" is assigned to Irving Music as is "Wonderful",  "Wind Chimes" and "Vega Tables": "Surf's Up" carries only the composers names (according to BMI it's assigned to Brother Publishing and Crow Cries Music, which has the same address as Bug Music), and of course "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" isn't a VDP collaboration at all (interestingly, it's assigned to BriMel). The "Fire" you found is - as you's see if you looked a little deeper -  from the movie The Adventures Of Ociee.

[guitarfool2002]

This is confusing...Cabin Essence absent from ASCAP's database yet credited on the album list, "Fire" credited to Safe And Sane on ASCAP but "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" is BriMel, Do You Like Worms credited on ASCAP but not credited on the album. Is it the same "Fire" or a different solo VDP track?

Were the credits dating back to 1966-67 listed in such a haphazard way to create this kind of confusion or are we missing something underneath these credits? Not that it's a major issue or anything but it is interesting why some of these things look the way they do, especially one of the centerpiece songs like Cabin Essence.

[Andrew G. Doe]

This is confusing...Cabin Essence absent from ASCAP's database yet credited on the album list, "Fire" credited to Safe And Sane on ASCAP but "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" is BriMel, Do You Like Worms credited on ASCAP but not credited on the album. Is it the same "Fire" or a different solo VDP track?

Were the credits dating back to 1966-67 listed in such a haphazard way to create this kind of confusion or are we missing something underneath these credits? Not that it's a major issue or anything but it is interesting why some of these things look the way they do, especially one of the centerpiece songs like Cabin Essence.

Hello... did you read what I said about the VDP "Fire" you turned up ?

Also, "Cabinessence" is assigned to Irving, according to BMI. I'm thinking... typo.

Know why the credits are a mess ? Because the situation was a mess back then, and if it wasn't for the work of Diane, it would be more of a mess.

[guitarfool2002]

This is confusing...Cabin Essence absent from ASCAP's database yet credited on the album list, "Fire" credited to Safe And Sane on ASCAP but "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" is BriMel, Do You Like Worms credited on ASCAP but not credited on the album. Is it the same "Fire" or a different solo VDP track?

Were the credits dating back to 1966-67 listed in such a haphazard way to create this kind of confusion or are we missing something underneath these credits? Not that it's a major issue or anything but it is interesting why some of these things look the way they do, especially one of the centerpiece songs like Cabin Essence.

Hello... did you read what I said about the VDP "Fire" you turned up ?

Also, "Cabinessence" is assigned to Irving, according to BMI. I'm thinking... typo.

Know why the credits are a mess ? Because the situation was a mess back then, and if it wasn't for the work of Diane, it would be more of a mess.

I see it now but I did not see it on the original answer you posted, otherwise I wouldn't have asked about it. I figured that was the deal with Fire. If you added information to a post minutes after I replied to it, I wouldn't have seen it short of having an alarm go off.

That typo, if that's what it is, may cost someone thousands of dollars unless it's just a listing typo and the real paperwork is accurate. Looks like the situation is still a mess.

[Andrew G. Doe]

This is confusing...Cabin Essence absent from ASCAP's database yet credited on the album list, "Fire" credited to Safe And Sane on ASCAP but "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" is BriMel, Do You Like Worms credited on ASCAP but not credited on the album. Is it the same "Fire" or a different solo VDP track?

Were the credits dating back to 1966-67 listed in such a haphazard way to create this kind of confusion or are we missing something underneath these credits? Not that it's a major issue or anything but it is interesting why some of these things look the way they do, especially one of the centerpiece songs like Cabin Essence.

Hello... did you read what I said about the VDP "Fire" you turned up ?

Also, "Cabinessence" is assigned to Irving, according to BMI. I'm thinking... typo.

Know why the credits are a mess ? Because the situation was a mess back then, and if it wasn't for the work of Diane, it would be more of a mess.

I see it now but I did not see it on the original answer you posted, otherwise I wouldn't have asked about it. I figured that was the deal with Fire. If you added information to a post minutes after I replied to it, I wouldn't have seen it short of having an alarm go off.

That typo, if that's what it is, may cost someone thousands of dollars unless it's just a listing typo and the real paperwork is accurate. Looks like the situation is still a mess.

To be more precise, a typo on the album credits - the listing is correct in the BMI files. Looks like it's not only the lyrics of BWPS that weren't proofed too well. 

[Iron Horse-Apples]

I wonder if Mojo runs a month behind here in the U.S.? I think when Mojo ran the article on Brian and Smile in 2004, I had to wait to get a copy.

Don't worry, I'm sure all you lot stateside will get to hear the single by, ooh, I don't know, June 15th?

[juggler]

Re: The credit for Van Dyke's publishing company "Safe And Sane".

The current ASCAP listing of Smile related song titles logged under Safe And Sane music admin. by "Bughouse" in Los Angeles looks like this:

Barnyard
Child Is Father To The Man
Do You Like Worms
Fire
I Love To Say DaDa
I'm In Great Shape
In Blue Hawaii
On A Holiday
Roll Plymouth Rock
Song For Children


No listing for Cabinessence, which surprises me. Some of those titles are also more BWPS-centric than Smile 1966-67 as will appear on the box set. I speculated a few pages ago that *perhaps* some credits were renegotiated for this upcoming release, but I'd think the ASCAP list would reflect that as it doesn't take too long for additions or changes to appear, at least in my experience.

Hmmm.

According to the back of the CD jewel case, the following songs carry a VDP/Safe & Sane credit:

Roll Plymouth Rock
Barnyard
Cabin Essence
Song For Children
Chil Is Father Of The Man
I'm In Great Shape
On A Holiday
In Blue Hawaii

"H&V" is assigned to Irving Music as is "Wonderful",  "Wind Chimes" and "Vega Tables": "Surf's Up" carries only the composers names (according to BMI it's assigned to Brother Publishing and Crow Cries Music, which has the same address as Bug Music), and of course "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" isn't a VDP collaboration at all (interestingly, it's assigned to BriMel). The "Fire" you found is - as you's see if you looked a little deeper -  from the movie The Adventures Of Ociee.

For the most part, the credits seem to follow these basic rules...

(1) The songs that were originally released in one form or  another in the '60s (H&V, GV, WC, Wonderful, Vega, Cab) belong to Irving Music (successor to Sea of Tunes).
(2) Surf's Up belongs to Brother Publishing and Crow Cries (apparently VDP's publishing co in '71 when the song was released)
(3) The stuff that was unreleased or unfinished until BWPS is credited to BriMel and Safe & Sane.

One of the big inconsistencies is the Safe & Sane credit for Cab.  No new lyrics were added for the BWPS version of Cab, yet there's the new Safe & Sane credit on BWPS and on this Mojo 45 (though NOT in BMI's database).  One thing to keep in mind, though, is that at the time of BWPS, VDP raised the issue of missing credits on Wonderful and Wind Chimes with Melinda.  VDP had always been credited on Cab, but let's not forget that, as Mike Love has often complained, Murry often credited Brian's writing partners with much less than 50% of the song (sometimes only 10%).  Perhaps VDP was only down for a small percentage of Cab and had it raised, and hence the change in the credits?  Just a theory...

[Chocolate Shake Man]

For what it's worth, the order of the two songs (A Side/ B Side) is the same as the track sequence on BWPS  

Nice spot! 

Coincidence maybe, but perhaps another indicator of the looming presence of BWPS over this box ...

...which was plainly stated by ML in his interview - BWPS = template

Sorry, but Linett didn't say that at all. This is what he said:

If you take Brian's 2004 version as a blueprint, [it will have] all of that music, all of the significant parts and even the little segue ways

What this is suggesting is not that they are going to replicate the structure of BWPS. Rather, he is saying here that all the music that is on BWPS can be found from The Smile Sessions (something that the serious Smile fan already knew) and therefore all the music that was on BWPS will also be on the boxset. Now this can mean two things - he is misusing the word "blueprint" or the sentence as a whole isn't coherent. This doesn't necessarily mean that the tracklisting for Disc 1 of the Smile Sessions won't be modelled on BWPS. Maybe it will. Either way, Linett is not suggesting it will in this quotation.

[drbeachboy]

I agree and disagree with your interpretation. When Mark said blueprint, he was talking disc 1 only. So, all of the tracks and segues on BWPS will be on disc 1, but he didn't mention the sequence. This is where I think there could be some differences, especially if they try to reproduce The Elements section. This also seems to mean that Look, Holidays, and I Love To Say Dada will be a part of Smile. We'll see in about 4 months.

[juggler]

I agree and disagree with your interpretation. When Mark said blueprint, he was talking disc 1 only. So, all of the tracks and segues on BWPS will be on disc 1, but he didn't mention the sequence. This is where I think there could be some differences, especially if they try to reproduce The Elements section. This also seems to mean that Look, Holidays, and I Love To Say Dada will be a part of Smile. We'll see in about 4 months.

Or read in about 3 weeks, perhaps.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Mojo special edition contains a lot of details about will and won't be included.  They're promising "the full story," so we'll see.

[Mahalo]

If anything, I would hope the Yodellleee--ee--oo vox to be flown in on Wonderful somewhere on the box-set, if not on the initial CD...

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I agree and disagree with your interpretation. When Mark said blueprint, he was talking disc 1 only. So, all of the tracks and segues on BWPS will be on disc 1, but he didn't mention the sequence.

More over, what he does mention in the paragraph above the one I posted, is that "We have some rough mixes from 1966, which will probably become part of the quote album." In other words, in answer to Billboard's question, Will BWPS "serve as the guide line for the "Smile" Sessions track listing"?, Linett at the very least says that they will not be exclusively relying on it.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

To be fair though, the three paragraphs that constitute a response to that question are really quite non sensical. I mostly blame Billboard - if only because they use the term "segue ways". What the hell is that?

[juggler]

I mostly blame Billboard - if only because they use the term "segue ways". What the hell is that?

Ha, yeah, Billboard's editorial standards do seem to be a bit lacking. 

Not quite as funny, though, as the UCLA student interviewer who recently misheard Brian's favorite collaborators, "Mike Love, Tony Asher and Van Dyke Parks," as "Mike Love, Tony Hatch and Benny Clark."

[FUN³]

To be fair though, the three paragraphs that constitute a response to that question are really quite non sensical. I mostly blame Billboard - if only because they use the term "segue ways". What the hell is that?

its just a hip new way to say it,  like vajayjays

[vintagemusic]

This is confusing...Cabin Essence absent from ASCAP's database yet credited on the album list, "Fire" credited to Safe And Sane on ASCAP but "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" is BriMel, Do You Like Worms credited on ASCAP but not credited on the album. Is it the same "Fire" or a different solo VDP track?

Were the credits dating back to 1966-67 listed in such a haphazard way to create this kind of confusion or are we missing something underneath these credits? Not that it's a major issue or anything but it is interesting why some of these things look the way they do, especially one of the centerpiece songs like Cabin Essence.

Hello... did you read what I said about the VDP "Fire" you turned up ?

Also, "Cabinessence" is assigned to Irving, according to BMI. I'm thinking... typo.

Know why the credits are a mess ? Because the situation was a mess back then, and if it wasn't for the work of Diane, it would be more of a mess.

I see it now but I did not see it on the original answer you posted, otherwise I wouldn't have asked about it. I figured that was the deal with Fire. If you added information to a post minutes after I replied to it, I wouldn't have seen it short of having an alarm go off.

That typo, if that's what it is, may cost someone thousands of dollars unless it's just a listing typo and the real paperwork is accurate. Looks like the situation is still a mess.

To be more precise, a typo on the album credits - the listing is correct in the BMI files. Looks like it's not only the lyrics of BWPS that weren't proofed too well. 

Not to be too obvious but, if one is checking ASCAP and Cabin Essence is listed with BMI, naturally you wouldn't find it

Cabinessence or Cabin Essence could also be a problem when trying to find it. Which spelling.

There is any number of simple explanations why someone might not see it when looking on the internet.

maybe because it came out a few years later on 20/20 and it has a different date. I had a song recently I was trying
to locate throuigh BMI online search and I couldn't because the publishing had been sold to another firm.

[buddhahat]

I agree and disagree with your interpretation. When Mark said blueprint, he was talking disc 1 only. So, all of the tracks and segues on BWPS will be on disc 1, but he didn't mention the sequence.

More over, what he does mention in the paragraph above the one I posted, is that "We have some rough mixes from 1966, which will probably become part of the quote album." In other words, in answer to Billboard's question, Will BWPS "serve as the guide line for the "Smile" Sessions track listing"?, Linett at the very least says that they will not be exclusively relying on it.

I overlooked that rough mixes quote. That, reassuringly, does seem to suggest we won't get a Purple Chick sequence that follows BWPS exactly.

[JMZ]

Sorry, but Linett didn't say that at all. This is what he said:

If you take Brian's 2004 version as a blueprint, [it will have] all of that music, all of the significant parts and even the little segue ways

Wait a minute, what do they refer to when they say "little segues" ? Do they talk about the very end of "H&V" ? or the "cantina" intro of "I'm In Great Shape" ? Or the segue between "Child" and "Surf's Up" ? Or the outro of "In Blue Hawai" before the reprise of "Our Prayer"

Do they mean that this existed back in 66/67 ? I though these had been written for BWPS ?

[buddhahat]

Sorry, but Linett didn't say that at all. This is what he said:

If you take Brian's 2004 version as a blueprint, [it will have] all of that music, all of the significant parts and even the little segue ways

Wait a minute, what do they refer to when they say "little segues" ? Do they talk about the very end of "H&V" ? or the "cantina" intro of "I'm In Great Shape" ? Or the segue between "Child" and "Surf's Up" ? Or the outro of "In Blue Hawai" before the reprise of "Our Prayer"

Do they mean that this existed back in 66/67 ? I though these had been written for BWPS ?

All the segues are based on original Smile music, so the segue between H&V and Worms is based on SU, the intro to Great Shape is the Caintina melody and so on. Mark's quote is a little misleading as it suggests those segues (exactly as they were recorded for BWPS) have vintage counterparts, which we know isn't true.

In fact I don't know why he mentions the segues. It suggests that there may be plans to link tracks a la BWPS. Some, such as the link between Heroes and Worms just won't be possible but others are easier. Maybe they'll edit child so that the intro segues into SU. I just don't know. Does seem odd that he'd mention it.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I agree and disagree with your interpretation. When Mark said blueprint, he was talking disc 1 only. So, all of the tracks and segues on BWPS will be on disc 1, but he didn't mention the sequence. This is where I think there could be some differences, especially if they try to reproduce The Elements section. This also seems to mean that Look, Holidays, and I Love To Say Dada will be a part of Smile. We'll see in about 4 months.

Or read in about 3 weeks, perhaps.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Mojo special edition contains a lot of details about will and won't be included.  They're promising "the full story," so we'll see.

Seeing who's written the 'full story' article (not Dom)... I seriously doubt that.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Not to be too obvious but, if one is checking ASCAP and Cabin Essence is listed with BMI, naturally you wouldn't find it

Cabinessence or Cabin Essence could also be a problem when trying to find it. Which spelling.

There is any number of simple explanations why someone might not see it when looking on the internet.

maybe because it came out a few years later on 20/20 and it has a different date. I had a song recently I was trying
to locate throuigh BMI online search and I couldn't because the publishing had been sold to another firm.

Or you can do what I did... look for "Cabin Essence" under Brian Wilson on BMI and then see who VDP is assigned to. As for the problem of which spelling, well duh ! - how about trying both ?  People here are trying to manufacture a mystery where none exists. The correct info is readily available on the 'net, and the almost certain answer is that the Safe & Sane publishing credit on the BWPS CD is a typo.

[JMZ]

Some, such as the link between Heroes and Worms just won't be possible but others are easier. Maybe they'll edit child so that the intro segues into SU. I just don't know. Does seem odd that he'd mention it.

The H&V > Worms is easier than the Child > Surf's Up because these last two are in very distant keys (that's what the 2004 coda stands for, to build a way to arrive on the 5th degree of Surf's Up key).

Maybe something vintage exists for some of those orchestral segues.

In E.G. do the bootlegs really contain all the "orchstral" H&V sections and stuff ever recorded ? I mean the only "full orchestra w/ strings" section we know of H&V is the coda (that ends with woodblocks and the harmonica).

On the "sessionography", the only H&V session that could match with such a large amount of personnel is the Dec, 19, 1966. It says the session lasts 5 hours. Did the wrecking crew needed 5 hours to put 25 seconds of music on tape ? Nah, I'm pretty sure other orchstral stuff has been recorded.