Was David Marks an Founding Member of the Beach Boys?

[Phoenix]

I might add to any timeline the genesis of three eventual members learning/rehearsing material that ended up on the group's first albums...which happened prior to your suggested beginning of the "group".

He still wasn't fucking in The Beach Boys on their first record or their first appearances! Therefore, not an original. We get it, you wrote about him and you think he's a great guy. I've never met him, but he sure seems like a freakin' awesome dude. But he was not in the original group. But he was on their first album and the group's first really big hits. John McVie was part of the original Fleetwood Mac. Bob Brunning was the original bassist for the first show and I think a few recordings. However, you don't see any biographers wetting their pants trying to say McVie was an original member. Cuz it don't matter. He's been on nearly every important recording by the group, and who gives a sh*t if he is original.

Chill. Dave is still important, even if he wasn't there at the very beginning. He was there before the beginning, but that don't matter.

Why so nasty? Is it really that important that someone thinks differently than you? This is exectly what takes the fun out of discussing the band in here. It's not the end of the world if Jon or the surviving members of the band, or some of us in here believe David to be a founding member.

 

[Jon Stebbins]

I might add to any timeline the genesis of three eventual members learning/rehearsing material that ended up on the group's first albums...which happened prior to your suggested beginning of the "group".

He still wasn't fucking in The Beach Boys on their first record or their first appearances! Therefore, not an original. We get it, you wrote about him and you think he's a great guy. I've never met him, but he sure seems like a freakin' awesome dude. But he was not in the original group. But he was on their first album and the group's first really big hits. John McVie was part of the original Fleetwood Mac. Bob Brunning was the original bassist for the first show and I think a few recordings. However, you don't see any biographers wetting their pants trying to say McVie was an original member. Cuz it don't matter. He's been on nearly every important recording by the group, and who gives a sh*t if he is original.

Chill. Dave is still important, even if he wasn't there at the very beginning. He was there before the beginning, but that don't matter.

Why so nasty? Is it really that important that someone thinks differently than you? This is exectly what takes the fun out of discussing the band in here. It's not the end of the world if Jon or the surviving members of the band, or some of us in here believe David to be a founding member.

I know...pretty funny. He's cussing at me...throwing childish insults...but is simultaneously suggesting that I "chill".  I assume he feels my three brief posts in this thread have been out of line.

[Jim V.]

I might add to any timeline the genesis of three eventual members learning/rehearsing material that ended up on the group's first albums...which happened prior to your suggested beginning of the "group".

He still wasn't fucking in The Beach Boys on their first record or their first appearances! Therefore, not an original. We get it, you wrote about him and you think he's a great guy. I've never met him, but he sure seems like a freakin' awesome dude. But he was not in the original group. But he was on their first album and the group's first really big hits. John McVie was part of the original Fleetwood Mac. Bob Brunning was the original bassist for the first show and I think a few recordings. However, you don't see any biographers wetting their pants trying to say McVie was an original member. Cuz it don't matter. He's been on nearly every important recording by the group, and who gives a sh*t if he is original.

Chill. Dave is still important, even if he wasn't there at the very beginning. He was there before the beginning, but that don't matter.

Why so nasty? Is it really that important that someone thinks differently than you? This is exectly what takes the fun out of discussing the band in here. It's not the end of the world if Jon or the surviving members of the band, or some of us in here believe David to be a founding member.

I know...pretty funny. He's cussing at me...throwing childish insults...but is simultaneously suggesting that I "chill".  I assume he feels my three brief posts in this thread have been out of line.

No. You just get way too emotionally invested in the guys you write about and let it cloud your judgment of reality.

[bgas]

I might add to any timeline the genesis of three eventual members learning/rehearsing material that ended up on the group's first albums...which happened prior to your suggested beginning of the "group".

He still wasn't fucking in The Beach Boys on their first record or their first appearances! Therefore, not an original. We get it, you wrote about him and you think he's a great guy. I've never met him, but he sure seems like a freakin' awesome dude. But he was not in the original group. But he was on their first album and the group's first really big hits. John McVie was part of the original Fleetwood Mac. Bob Brunning was the original bassist for the first show and I think a few recordings. However, you don't see any biographers wetting their pants trying to say McVie was an original member. Cuz it don't matter. He's been on nearly every important recording by the group, and who gives a sh*t if he is original.

Chill. Dave is still important, even if he wasn't there at the very beginning. He was there before the beginning, but that don't matter.

Why so nasty? Is it really that important that someone thinks differently than you? This is exectly what takes the fun out of discussing the band in here. It's not the end of the world if Jon or the surviving members of the band, or some of us in here believe David to be a founding member.

I know...pretty funny. He's cussing at me...throwing childish insults...but is simultaneously suggesting that I "chill".  I assume he feels my three brief posts in this thread have been out of line.

No. You just get way too emotionally invested in the guys you write about and let it cloud your judgment of reality.

 If the shoe fits....

[runnersdialzero]

Finding size 13 shoes when you have a wide foot and are looking for non-leather is a nightmare, you guys. Ugh.

[Jim V.]

I might add to any timeline the genesis of three eventual members learning/rehearsing material that ended up on the group's first albums...which happened prior to your suggested beginning of the "group".

He still wasn't fucking in The Beach Boys on their first record or their first appearances! Therefore, not an original. We get it, you wrote about him and you think he's a great guy. I've never met him, but he sure seems like a freakin' awesome dude. But he was not in the original group. But he was on their first album and the group's first really big hits. John McVie was part of the original Fleetwood Mac. Bob Brunning was the original bassist for the first show and I think a few recordings. However, you don't see any biographers wetting their pants trying to say McVie was an original member. Cuz it don't matter. He's been on nearly every important recording by the group, and who gives a sh*t if he is original.

Chill. Dave is still important, even if he wasn't there at the very beginning. He was there before the beginning, but that don't matter.

Why so nasty? Is it really that important that someone thinks differently than you? This is exectly what takes the fun out of discussing the band in here. It's not the end of the world if Jon or the surviving members of the band, or some of us in here believe David to be a founding member.

I know...pretty funny. He's cussing at me...throwing childish insults...but is simultaneously suggesting that I "chill".  I assume he feels my three brief posts in this thread have been out of line.

No. You just get way too emotionally invested in the guys you write about and let it cloud your judgment of reality.

 If the shoe fits....

Never wrote a book about David Marks.

Also, never wrote a book about Dennis Wilson either. Nor did I ever claim to have enough insight into the man's work that I would add a part into "Album Tag Song" that wasn't recorded for it.

[bgas]

I might add to any timeline the genesis of three eventual members learning/rehearsing material that ended up on the group's first albums...which happened prior to your suggested beginning of the "group".

He still wasn't fucking in The Beach Boys on their first record or their first appearances! Therefore, not an original. We get it, you wrote about him and you think he's a great guy. I've never met him, but he sure seems like a freakin' awesome dude. But he was not in the original group. But he was on their first album and the group's first really big hits. John McVie was part of the original Fleetwood Mac. Bob Brunning was the original bassist for the first show and I think a few recordings. However, you don't see any biographers wetting their pants trying to say McVie was an original member. Cuz it don't matter. He's been on nearly every important recording by the group, and who gives a sh*t if he is original.

Chill. Dave is still important, even if he wasn't there at the very beginning. He was there before the beginning, but that don't matter.

Why so nasty? Is it really that important that someone thinks differently than you? This is exectly what takes the fun out of discussing the band in here. It's not the end of the world if Jon or the surviving members of the band, or some of us in here believe David to be a founding member.

I know...pretty funny. He's cussing at me...throwing childish insults...but is simultaneously suggesting that I "chill".  I assume he feels my three brief posts in this thread have been out of line.

No. You just get way too emotionally invested in the guys you write about and let it cloud your judgment of reality.

 If the shoe fits....

Never wrote a book about David Marks.

Also, never wrote a book about Dennis Wilson either. Nor did I ever claim to have enough insight into the man's work that I would add a part into "Album Tag Song" that wasn't recorded for it.

and yet you "write" here all the time( and still can't see the forest for the trees)

[Disney Boy (1985)]

I might add to any timeline the genesis of three eventual members learning/rehearsing material that ended up on the group's first albums...which happened prior to your suggested beginning of the "group".

He still wasn't fucking in The Beach Boys on their first record or their first appearances! Therefore, not an original. We get it, you wrote about him and you think he's a great guy. I've never met him, but he sure seems like a freakin' awesome dude. But he was not in the original group. But he was on their first album and the group's first really big hits. John McVie was part of the original Fleetwood Mac. Bob Brunning was the original bassist for the first show and I think a few recordings. However, you don't see any biographers wetting their pants trying to say McVie was an original member. Cuz it don't matter. He's been on nearly every important recording by the group, and who gives a sh*t if he is original.

Chill. Dave is still important, even if he wasn't there at the very beginning. He was there before the beginning, but that don't matter.

Why so nasty? Is it really that important that someone thinks differently than you? This is exectly what takes the fun out of discussing the band in here. It's not the end of the world if Jon or the surviving members of the band, or some of us in here believe David to be a founding member.

I know...pretty funny. He's cussing at me...throwing childish insults...but is simultaneously suggesting that I "chill".  I assume he feels my three brief posts in this thread have been out of line.

No. You just get way too emotionally invested in the guys you write about and let it cloud your judgment of reality.

 If the shoe fits....

Never wrote a book about David Marks.

Also, never wrote a book about Dennis Wilson either. Nor did I ever claim to have enough insight into the man's work that I would add a part into "Album Tag Song" that wasn't recorded for it.

Glad whoever added that part into Album Tag Song did though, coz it fits brilliantly. Good on 'em!

[alf wiedersehen]

Finding size 13 shoes when you have a wide foot and are looking for non-leather is a nightmare, you guys. Ugh.

Oh, man. I can't imagine how difficult that must be for you 

[Jim V.]

I might add to any timeline the genesis of three eventual members learning/rehearsing material that ended up on the group's first albums...which happened prior to your suggested beginning of the "group".

He still wasn't fucking in The Beach Boys on their first record or their first appearances! Therefore, not an original. We get it, you wrote about him and you think he's a great guy. I've never met him, but he sure seems like a freakin' awesome dude. But he was not in the original group. But he was on their first album and the group's first really big hits. John McVie was part of the original Fleetwood Mac. Bob Brunning was the original bassist for the first show and I think a few recordings. However, you don't see any biographers wetting their pants trying to say McVie was an original member. Cuz it don't matter. He's been on nearly every important recording by the group, and who gives a sh*t if he is original.

Chill. Dave is still important, even if he wasn't there at the very beginning. He was there before the beginning, but that don't matter.

Why so nasty? Is it really that important that someone thinks differently than you? This is exectly what takes the fun out of discussing the band in here. It's not the end of the world if Jon or the surviving members of the band, or some of us in here believe David to be a founding member.

I know...pretty funny. He's cussing at me...throwing childish insults...but is simultaneously suggesting that I "chill".  I assume he feels my three brief posts in this thread have been out of line.

No. You just get way too emotionally invested in the guys you write about and let it cloud your judgment of reality.

 If the shoe fits....

Never wrote a book about David Marks.

Also, never wrote a book about Dennis Wilson either. Nor did I ever claim to have enough insight into the man's work that I would add a part into "Album Tag Song" that wasn't recorded for it.

and yet you "write" here all the time( and still can't see the forest for the trees)

Nope, I'm just another asshole on the internet. I don't claim to have any special insight or relationships with any of the group members that would make me think one way or another whether they were an "original" member.

[drbeachboy]

I might add to any timeline the genesis of three eventual members learning/rehearsing material that ended up on the group's first albums...which happened prior to your suggested beginning of the "group".

He still wasn't fucking in The Beach Boys on their first record or their first appearances! Therefore, not an original. We get it, you wrote about him and you think he's a great guy. I've never met him, but he sure seems like a freakin' awesome dude. But he was not in the original group. But he was on their first album and the group's first really big hits. John McVie was part of the original Fleetwood Mac. Bob Brunning was the original bassist for the first show and I think a few recordings. However, you don't see any biographers wetting their pants trying to say McVie was an original member. Cuz it don't matter. He's been on nearly every important recording by the group, and who gives a sh*t if he is original.

Chill. Dave is still important, even if he wasn't there at the very beginning. He was there before the beginning, but that don't matter.

Why so nasty? Is it really that important that someone thinks differently than you? This is exectly what takes the fun out of discussing the band in here. It's not the end of the world if Jon or the surviving members of the band, or some of us in here believe David to be a founding member.

I know...pretty funny. He's cussing at me...throwing childish insults...but is simultaneously suggesting that I "chill".  I assume he feels my three brief posts in this thread have been out of line.

No. You just get way too emotionally invested in the guys you write about and let it cloud your judgment of reality.

 If the shoe fits....

Never wrote a book about David Marks.

Also, never wrote a book about Dennis Wilson either. Nor did I ever claim to have enough insight into the man's work that I would add a part into "Album Tag Song" that wasn't recorded for it.

You really have jealousy issues, don't you? You seem have issues with the historians in here. I don't see the other historians taking issue with anything that Jon stated. You know, you can believe anything that you want, mythical or factual. Your opinion will never compete with the people who actually do the research.

[leggo of my ego]

GUys we can settle this...lets take a vote... I vote yea for Dave to be a founding member. 

[clack]

He still wasn't fucking in The Beach Boys on their first record or their first appearances! Therefore, not an original. We get it, you wrote about him and you think he's a great guy. I've never met him, but he sure seems like a freakin' awesome dude. But he was not in the original group. But he was on their first album and the group's first really big hits. John McVie was part of the original Fleetwood Mac. Bob Brunning was the original bassist for the first show and I think a few recordings. However, you don't see any biographers wetting their pants trying to say McVie was an original member. Cuz it don't matter. He's been on nearly every important recording by the group, and who gives a sh*t if he is original.

Chill. Dave is still important, even if he wasn't there at the very beginning. He was there before the beginning, but that don't matter.

Newly formed bands are frequently in a state of flux for their 1st few months. Take your Fleetwood Mac example, for instance. Their 1st recordings did include John McVie, back when McVie, Fleetwood, and Green were members of Mayall's Bluesbreakers and recorded as 'Fleetwood Mac', as a Peter Green side project.

David Marks is another marginal case. He was a contributer to the Beach Boys from the beginning, and was a full-fledged member within months of the group's formation, appearing on their initial major label releases.

I guess it's down to how expansively you want to define the term "original member".  I'd say yes myself -- David is an original member -- but I would distinguish "original" from "founding". Al, Mike and Brian founded the Beach Boys.

I can see where other folks can reason differently, though.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Good way to put it clack, and good way to state it without getting nasty.Wish there was more of that around.

[bluesno1fann]

GUys we can settle this...lets take a vote... I vote yea for Dave to be a founding member. 

I'd rather the vote be on the Beach Boys Wikipedia talk page, as if we decide on yes, we can write that David Marks is a founding member on Wikipedia.
If we decide on no, We leave the page as it is.

[pixletwin]

Good way to put it clack, and good way to state it without getting nasty.Wish there was more of that around.

No need for any of this to get personal. It's an interesting conversation if we keep it academic. Otherwise what's the point?

[Phoenix]

"Founding member" = "Original member".

A "founding member" or "original member" of a club, group, or organization is one of the first members. To establish or set up, especially with provision for continuing existence. To establish or formulate the foundation or basis of. To bring something into existence and set it in operation. To create, establish, institute, organize.

I'd say Dave was/is an original member based on that definition.

Sounds pretty clear to me. 

[Phoenix]

Good way to put it clack, and good way to state it without getting nasty.Wish there was more of that around.

No need for any of this to get personal. It's an interesting conversation if we keep it academic. Otherwise what's the point?

Exactly.  Life is stressful enough.  The last things I want to do when I come here are start a fight or get yelled at. 

[bluesno1fann]

Good way to put it clack, and good way to state it without getting nasty.Wish there was more of that around.

No need for any of this to get personal. It's an interesting conversation if we keep it academic. Otherwise what's the point?

Exactly. I find that when posts start to get personal, and people start insulting each other, it's time to end the topic.

Besides, what's the point of getting angry at each other? It's just a debate.
Another thing I'm not a fan of is Swearing when Angry. I don't mind Swearing if it's just for the sake of it, or just using it casually. But when it's directed at someone or when someone's angry at someone, then I'm against swearing. A couple of people started swearing at each other in this topic.
I know debates can sometimes get frustrating, but please, let's try and keep it clean from insults and swearing!

[Mike's Beard]

It seems to be 6 pages of going round in circles. Of what to me is rather clear cut. When the principals formed the band it seems quite obvious that they didn't want David Marks in it. I've seen some posts here that border on the ridiculous when it comes to trying to make a claim that Marks was an original. "David Marks lived across the street from the Wilsons"
So living in near proximity to the Wilson clan is grounds for being in the band? Interesting theroy.
"David Marks would play with Carl and Brian prior to any group being formed".
He did. If this is criteria for founding band status then Murry and Audree were also Beach Boy members.

I'm rather wary of the Marks quotes at the start of this thread because it seems to go against what he has said in the past about his Beach Boys origins. Is David suddenly being 'allowed' to start saying he was an original Beach Boy? Right around the same time the BW camp is hoovering up BB members to perform with Brian?
I wouldn't be suprised if David did play with the guys while they were rehearsing Surfin'. It's not as if his trips to the Wilson house stopped the second he wasn't let into the band. But again, being in the room with a band as they are playing is not the same as being in the band.
 

[Rocky Raccoon]

This is from the OFFICIAL concert program from the 2012 tour.  Look who it lists under "founding members."



Case closed.

[Mike's Beard]

Yeah it lists David Marks, the guy who wasn't even initially considered to be included in the C50 Reunion. It's gonna take more than a revisionist, back-slapping puff piece to convince me.

[bluesno1fann]

Yeah it lists David Marks, the guy who wasn't even initially considered to be included in the C50 Reunion. It's gonna take more than a revisionist, back-slapping puff piece to convince me.

When did they decide to add David Marks to the Reunion?

[Micha]

I'd say this is one of the silliest discussions ever on this board, even outside the minor insults. I say, Dave deserves to be regarded as an original and/or founding member, regardless of any detail in the timeline. I am not interested in any I'm right - you're wrong discussions.

Also, I'd like to see a quote by Brian or anyone else in the band that originally they specifically didn't want Dave in the band. I think the reason he didn't feature in the first incarnations of the band was that he was very young AND not family. Al was older, Carl and Dennis were family.

[Smilin Ed H]

Dave was a founding father in the evolution of the band - same with Al, but in a different way. Simple, surely?