Was David Marks an Founding Member of the Beach Boys?

[bluesno1fann]

I guess you guys (and especially Mike's Beard) are right. Judging by everything I read, while David Marks was NOT a Founding member, he did join almost immediately after, and it was not because of Al Jardine leaving.

[monicker]

I think a much more interesting question is (and the answer may be obvious, so forgive me if so): was David always in the vocal blend on the first four albums? I honestly don’t know how to pick his voice out in the stack. Were some of the harmonies just Brian, Mike, Carl, and Dennis? Or was David always in there? Hell, was Dennis always in the stack?

Also, which songs, if any, have all 6 of them singing harmony? 

[Phoenix]

Earlier people compared Dave to Pete Best but the truth is, it was AL who played the Pete role.  He was there as things were gestating but gone by the time of the band's real debut.  Compare: The sessions with the Morgans = the Decca audition tapes.  "Surfin'" = "My Bonnie".  "Surfin' Safari" (the song) = "Love Me Do".  Surfin' Safari (the album) = Please Please Me.  At this point, the band is Brian, Mike, Carl, Dennis, and Dave, while Al is relegated to footnote status.  However, since Al's absence is only temporary, the scenario changes and the band's early days wind up encompassing six different members.

Problem with that is, unless I am mistaken, Al still played on every record but Surfin' USA. Right?

That's my point, really.  Al's leave was VERY short and his speedy return is what kept him from being the Pet Best footnote.

Seventeen months is "VERY short" ?

Compared to Pete Best's time out of the Beatles, it's EXTREMELY short!     As I said, had he not returned (as Pete did not), he would have been a footnote (as Pete was).  Because he did return, just outside the first year, he instead was "the new guy who was actually there at the beginning too" so his brief and early contribution made it seem like he just took a "short" break".  And in 50+ years, what's a year and a half between high school and neighborhood friends?  

[Phoenix]

I think a much more interesting question is (and the answer may be obvious, so forgive me if so): was David always in the vocal blend on the first four albums? I honestly don’t know how to pick his voice out in the stack. Were some of the harmonies just Brian, Mike, Carl, and Dennis? Or was David always in there? Hell, was Dennis always in the stack?

Also, which songs, if any, have all 6 of them singing harmony? 

Word is he was usually NOT in the blend, as he was still going through puberty and as such, his voicre hadn't fully developed yet.

[Ram4]

I think a much more interesting question is (and the answer may be obvious, so forgive me if so): was David always in the vocal blend on the first four albums? I honestly don’t know how to pick his voice out in the stack. Were some of the harmonies just Brian, Mike, Carl, and Dennis? Or was David always in there? Hell, was Dennis always in the stack?

Also, which songs, if any, have all 6 of them singing harmony? 

Word is he was usually NOT in the blend, as he was still going through puberty and as such, his voicre hadn't fully developed yet.

I always wondered that too especially on The Surfer Girl album which has my favorite stereo (wide) mix of their vocals of any album.  Having Dennis on everything with just a Wilson/Love blend (no David or Al) makes it a little unique.  It's also interesting to think that at that point Dennis was probably considered the 3rd lead singer before Carl. 

[smilethebeachboysloveyou]

One important difference between either Al or David on the one hand and Pete Best on the other is that Al and David both left of their own volition (or in David's case, that of his parents) whereas Pete Best left The Beatles because the other members of the band didn't want him.  There's no way that Best would have been allowed to return after 17 months the way that Al was, and even if a 50th Beatles anniversary tour and album were plausible, do you honestly think anyone would invite Pete Best to join them?

[Gertie J.]

pete worst.

[Jon Stebbins]

Let's go through the established timeline carefully.

In the Summer of '61 Al suggests to Brian that they form a group. Mike had also been on at Brian to form a group,  so the 3 of them join together. Brian also drags his younger brother Carl along.

A few months later Al secures them a tryout at Hite Morgan, having made contact with them before with his old band The Islanders. At this point Dennis had also joined the band at his mother's persistence. The 5 kids who go to Hit Morgan Studios to perform Sloop John B. (and maybe one or two other folk standards) are Brian, Mike, Al, Carl and Dennis. No David Marks. At the session Dennis tells the story of how they have written a song about surfing.

On the Labour Day Weekend with their parents out of town, everyone camps to the Wilson house with a rented upright bass to practice. The main focus is the newly written Surfin'. The five kids in the band again consists of Brian, Mike, Al, Carl and Dennis. No bandmember has ever mentioned David Marks being present at these practices in a musical capacity.

A couple of weeks later the band, by now dubbed "The Pendletones" demo Surfin' and two other songs at the Morgan's home studio. David Marks had nothing to do with this session.

At the start of October the five piece band record Surfin', Luau and Lavender at World Pacific Studios. David Marks is not present.

In December the renamed "Beach Boys" make their live debut during a Dick Dale concert. The line-up for the band is again Brian, Mike, Al, Carl and Dennis. No David Marks. The same line-up performs a second gig a week or so later, again without David Marks (is anyone else starting to sense a pattern here?).

Also in December the band make their first ever TV appearance, albeit on a small, local televison channel. David Marks must have been stuck in school YET AGAIN, because again he does not appear.

A handfull of other small time gigs over the next month or so again feature a David Marks free line-up.

In Febuary the guys again record at Pacific Studios. The early version of Surfin' Safari is one of the tracks laid down. And guess what?...that's right, David Marks was not a part of these sessions.

Sometime in the middle of the month Al resigns from the band. However he may have honored any outstanding live commitments he had made prior to leaving. There is speculation that the group may have done a concert or two around this time as a four piece. Roughly 3 weeks after Al splits, David Marks makes his live debut with the band.

Dem's de facts. That we have long time posters and BB fans from waaaay back suddenly posting under the belief that the group had 6 members from day one has me baffled.

Your timeline starts a little late IMO...
1958 Carl and David begin regular rehearsals on guitar with the intention of getting something together musically
1959/60 Brian teaches Carl and David original BW material
1960/61 Carl and David are regularly rehearsing/developing material that ends up on the 62/63 Beach Boys albums

Add this to the beginning of your timeline for accuracy

[Jim V.]

I don't understand the obsession with some in the Marks mafia who seem to think that getting David credited as an "original" or "founding" member matters at all. Who cares? All I know is that he was for sure in The Beach Boys when they recorded "Surfin' U.S.A.", "Farmer's Daughter", "Lonely Sea", "Surfer Girl" and "Little Deuce Coupe" among many others. So that means he is on the recordings of a whole lot of Beach Boys classics. He is now recognized as a full, contributing member during a great era for the band. Who cares if he's "original"? Lindsey Buckingham isn't an "original" Fleetwood Mac member, but his contributions to that band mean a hell of a lot more to me and many others than Jeremy Spencer's.

So screw the "original" sh*t. Don't matter.

[Phoenix]

1958 Carl and David begin regular rehearsals on guitar with the intention of getting something together musically
1959/60 Brian teaches Carl and David original BW material
1960/61 Carl and David are regularly rehearsing/developing material that ends up on the 62/63 Beach Boys albums

Add this to the beginning of your timeline for accuracy

I'm totally with you on this one, Jon.

As for why those of us consider him an original member is for the simple fact that he (along with Al) was there at the beginning and the band's formation didn't happen with just one specific incident but over the course of several months, and including all six guys.  Seeing it beyond anything but that is splitting hairs. 

...In my opinion. 

[Phoenix]

As for the Pete Best comparison, OF COURSE there are differences.  Otherwise (as I've said a few times already), Al would be a footnote like Pete.

...But he's not.

...Because of the differences.

Get it?   

[Mike's Beard]

Let's go through the established timeline carefully.

In the Summer of '61 Al suggests to Brian that they form a group. Mike had also been on at Brian to form a group,  so the 3 of them join together. Brian also drags his younger brother Carl along.

A few months later Al secures them a tryout at Hite Morgan, having made contact with them before with his old band The Islanders. At this point Dennis had also joined the band at his mother's persistence. The 5 kids who go to Hit Morgan Studios to perform Sloop John B. (and maybe one or two other folk standards) are Brian, Mike, Al, Carl and Dennis. No David Marks. At the session Dennis tells the story of how they have written a song about surfing.

On the Labour Day Weekend with their parents out of town, everyone camps to the Wilson house with a rented upright bass to practice. The main focus is the newly written Surfin'. The five kids in the band again consists of Brian, Mike, Al, Carl and Dennis. No bandmember has ever mentioned David Marks being present at these practices in a musical capacity.

A couple of weeks later the band, by now dubbed "The Pendletones" demo Surfin' and two other songs at the Morgan's home studio. David Marks had nothing to do with this session.

At the start of October the five piece band record Surfin', Luau and Lavender at World Pacific Studios. David Marks is not present.

In December the renamed "Beach Boys" make their live debut during a Dick Dale concert. The line-up for the band is again Brian, Mike, Al, Carl and Dennis. No David Marks. The same line-up performs a second gig a week or so later, again without David Marks (is anyone else starting to sense a pattern here?).

Also in December the band make their first ever TV appearance, albeit on a small, local televison channel. David Marks must have been stuck in school YET AGAIN, because again he does not appear.

A handfull of other small time gigs over the next month or so again feature a David Marks free line-up.

In Febuary the guys again record at Pacific Studios. The early version of Surfin' Safari is one of the tracks laid down. And guess what?...that's right, David Marks was not a part of these sessions.

Sometime in the middle of the month Al resigns from the band. However he may have honored any outstanding live commitments he had made prior to leaving. There is speculation that the group may have done a concert or two around this time as a four piece. Roughly 3 weeks after Al splits, David Marks makes his live debut with the band.

Dem's de facts. That we have long time posters and BB fans from waaaay back suddenly posting under the belief that the group had 6 members from day one has me baffled.

Your timeline starts a little late IMO...
1958 Carl and David begin regular rehearsals on guitar with the intention of getting something together musically
1959/60 Brian teaches Carl and David original BW material
1960/61 Carl and David are regularly rehearsing/developing material that ends up on the 62/63 Beach Boys albums

Add this to the beginning of your timeline for accuracy

Jon did you miss when I typed this -

Yes David was close to the Wilsons and had been learning guitar with Carl for some time. He also played in the family sessions that included Murry and Audree. If Brian was trying out some idea in the music room and needed a few extra voices he would rope Carl and Dave into helping him out. David has mentioned that several early BB songs had their genesis in the stuff that he and Carl helped Brian work on. Dave has also said that he attended countless jam sessions at the Wilson house prior to any solid decision to form a band.

Which still does not really validate a claim to original band status. The band formed in a strictly technical sense when Al approached Brian about getting something together and Brian hooked him up with Mike and Carl.

[Cam Mott]

So I guess David was a band member but not available for participation in band activity in the beginning but then was available coincidental with Al deciding he was getting out of the band.

[Nicko1234]

I don't understand the obsession with some in the Marks mafia who seem to think that getting David credited as an "original" or "founding" member matters at all. Who cares? All I know is that he was for sure in The Beach Boys when they recorded "Surfin' U.S.A.", "Farmer's Daughter", "Lonely Sea", "Surfer Girl" and "Little Deuce Coupe" among many others. So that means he is on the recordings of a whole lot of Beach Boys classics. He is now recognized as a full, contributing member during a great era for the band. Who cares if he's "original"? Lindsey Buckingham isn't an "original" Fleetwood Mac member, but his contributions to that band mean a hell of a lot more to me and many others than Jeremy Spencer's.

So screw the "original" sh*t. Don't matter.

This.

[monicker]

The Marks mafia. I like that. I'm going to use that one.

[Jon Stebbins]

Let's go through the established timeline carefully.

In the Summer of '61 Al suggests to Brian that they form a group. Mike had also been on at Brian to form a group,  so the 3 of them join together. Brian also drags his younger brother Carl along.

A few months later Al secures them a tryout at Hite Morgan, having made contact with them before with his old band The Islanders. At this point Dennis had also joined the band at his mother's persistence. The 5 kids who go to Hit Morgan Studios to perform Sloop John B. (and maybe one or two other folk standards) are Brian, Mike, Al, Carl and Dennis. No David Marks. At the session Dennis tells the story of how they have written a song about surfing.

On the Labour Day Weekend with their parents out of town, everyone camps to the Wilson house with a rented upright bass to practice. The main focus is the newly written Surfin'. The five kids in the band again consists of Brian, Mike, Al, Carl and Dennis. No bandmember has ever mentioned David Marks being present at these practices in a musical capacity.

A couple of weeks later the band, by now dubbed "The Pendletones" demo Surfin' and two other songs at the Morgan's home studio. David Marks had nothing to do with this session.

At the start of October the five piece band record Surfin', Luau and Lavender at World Pacific Studios. David Marks is not present.

In December the renamed "Beach Boys" make their live debut during a Dick Dale concert. The line-up for the band is again Brian, Mike, Al, Carl and Dennis. No David Marks. The same line-up performs a second gig a week or so later, again without David Marks (is anyone else starting to sense a pattern here?).

Also in December the band make their first ever TV appearance, albeit on a small, local televison channel. David Marks must have been stuck in school YET AGAIN, because again he does not appear.

A handfull of other small time gigs over the next month or so again feature a David Marks free line-up.

In Febuary the guys again record at Pacific Studios. The early version of Surfin' Safari is one of the tracks laid down. And guess what?...that's right, David Marks was not a part of these sessions.

Sometime in the middle of the month Al resigns from the band. However he may have honored any outstanding live commitments he had made prior to leaving. There is speculation that the group may have done a concert or two around this time as a four piece. Roughly 3 weeks after Al splits, David Marks makes his live debut with the band.

Dem's de facts. That we have long time posters and BB fans from waaaay back suddenly posting under the belief that the group had 6 members from day one has me baffled.

Your timeline starts a little late IMO...
1958 Carl and David begin regular rehearsals on guitar with the intention of getting something together musically
1959/60 Brian teaches Carl and David original BW material
1960/61 Carl and David are regularly rehearsing/developing material that ends up on the 62/63 Beach Boys albums

Add this to the beginning of your timeline for accuracy

Jon did you miss when I typed this -

Yes David was close to the Wilsons and had been learning guitar with Carl for some time. He also played in the family sessions that included Murry and Audree. If Brian was trying out some idea in the music room and needed a few extra voices he would rope Carl and Dave into helping him out. David has mentioned that several early BB songs had their genesis in the stuff that he and Carl helped Brian work on. Dave has also said that he attended countless jam sessions at the Wilson house prior to any solid decision to form a band.

Which still does not really validate a claim to original band status. The band formed in a strictly technical sense when Al approached Brian about getting something together and Brian hooked him up with Mike and Carl.

I might add to any timeline the genesis of three eventual members learning/rehearsing material that ended up on the group's first albums...which happened prior to your suggested beginning of the "group".

[Wirestone]

Think it's pretty inescapable from the timelines presented that Dave was part of the Wilson circle, but not an original Beach Boy. Brian seems to have specifically not wanted him in the group.

On the other hand, he joined soon after and helped develop the sound we know and love with Carl. So he was inescapably part of the band that first rocketed to national fame.

My head hurts.

[smilethebeachboysloveyou]

Think it's pretty inescapable from the timelines presented that Dave was part of the Wilson circle, but not an original Beacv Boy. I think a bit of a bill of goods has been sold to fans on this one, frankly. Brian seems to have really not wanted him in the group.

Not wanted him in the group in 1963 or not wanted him in the group for C50?  Or both?

[Jim V.]

I might add to any timeline the genesis of three eventual members learning/rehearsing material that ended up on the group's first albums...which happened prior to your suggested beginning of the "group".

He still wasn't fucking in The Beach Boys on their first record or their first appearances! Therefore, not an original. We get it, you wrote about him and you think he's a great guy. I've never met him, but he sure seems like a freakin' awesome dude. But he was not in the original group. But he was on their first album and the group's first really big hits. John McVie was part of the original Fleetwood Mac. Bob Brunning was the original bassist for the first show and I think a few recordings. However, you don't see any biographers wetting their pants trying to say McVie was an original member. Cuz it don't matter. He's been on nearly every important recording by the group, and who gives a sh*t if he is original.

Chill. Dave is still important, even if he wasn't there at the very beginning. He was there before the beginning, but that don't matter.

[Wirestone]

In the group originally. Probably because he was so young. But of course Dennis wasn't there originally either. Thanks, Audree!

[Cam Mott]

In the group originally. Probably because he was so young. But if course Dennis wasn't there originally either. Thanks, Audree!

I thought about bringing that up too but.......

[Phoenix]

In the group originally. Probably because he was so young. But if course Dennis wasn't there originally either. Thanks, Audree!

I thought about bringing that up too but.......

I already did and for some reason it's OK to apply that type of hair splitting being to Dave but not Dennis.  Talk about making your head hurt.   

[Mike's Beard]

In the group originally. Probably because he was so young. But if course Dennis wasn't there originally either. Thanks, Audree!

I thought about bringing that up too but.......

Dennis didn't join until a little while later, so he's not a founding member. The founding members are Brian, Al, and Mike (and to a lesser degree Carl as he was roped into the whole thing by Brian). However as Dennis wasn't replacing someone when he joined and the band had neither played live or recorded anything in it's so far short existence you could make a good arguement that he was an original member.

Now my head hurts......

[drbeachboy]

I might add to any timeline the genesis of three eventual members learning/rehearsing material that ended up on the group's first albums...which happened prior to your suggested beginning of the "group".

He still wasn't fucking in The Beach Boys on their first record or their first appearances! Therefore, not an original. We get it, you wrote about him and you think he's a great guy. I've never met him, but he sure seems like a freakin' awesome dude. But he was not in the original group. But he was on their first album and the group's first really big hits. John McVie was part of the original Fleetwood Mac. Bob Brunning was the original bassist for the first show and I think a few recordings. However, you don't see any biographers wetting their pants trying to say McVie was an original member. Cuz it don't matter. He's been on nearly every important recording by the group, and who gives a sh*t if he is original.

Chill. Dave is still important, even if he wasn't there at the very beginning. He was there before the beginning, but that don't matter.

Why so nasty? Is it really that important that someone thinks differently than you? This is exectly what takes the fun out of discussing the band in here. It's not the end of the world if Jon or the surviving members of the band, or some of us in here believe David to be a founding member.

[Mikie]

"Founding member" = "Original member".

A "founding member" or "original member" of a club, group, or organization is one of the first members. To establish or set up, especially with provision for continuing existence. To establish or formulate the foundation or basis of. To bring something into existence and set it in operation. To create, establish, institute, organize.

I'd say Dave was/is an original member based on that definition.

Mikie
Founding member, Marks Mafia
11818 Kornblum Ave.
Hawthorne, California, USA 90250