Was David Marks an Founding Member of the Beach Boys?

[Mikie]

So I see a few here are still differentiating "Founding" and "original" members. So in your own words (disregarding how it's defined in dictionaries on the Internet) please tell us the difference between the two!

Someone will make something up to their liking, to be sure.

Exactly. With no facts or other substantiation. Just to have something to argue about, I guess. Nothing else in the world to do at the moment. If it smacked 'em square in the face they would still argue no about it. Doc, you can't tell someone something that they don't want to hear.

Jeez. Sorry. I was definitely not arguing, just giving an opinion. I think you can make a distinction but it's not important especially if you're going to get angry about it.

I'm not angry at all! Sorry I came off that way. No, there's no reason at all to get mad about this topic. I don't think it's really controversial, and it's no skin off my butt what people's opinion is here. I see the "Yes" crowd is leading in the poll and that's fine. If it weren't, that's fine too! Nothing changes over the outcome.

haha - yes, there is plenty of other stuff to get worked up over in BB world!!

There really is, Tim. I think about what Howie said earlier in the thread. There must be SOMETHING else to talk about instead of regurgitating this issue again. 

[shelter]

Dave joined in Feb. '62

Doesn't the fact that he joined automatically mean that he wasn't a founding member?

Everybody has to join at some point.  It's not like the other five guys were magically in the band at the same time.

Yes, they were. They simultaneously became members once they officially founded the band. Joining means becoming part of something that already excisted.

[Phoenix]

"Founding member" = "Original member".

A "founding member" or "original member" of a club, group, or organization is one of the first members. To establish or set up, especially with provision for continuing existence. To establish or formulate the foundation or basis of. To bring something into existence and set it in operation. To create, establish, institute, organize.

I'd say Dave was/is an original member based on that definition.

Dave CLEARLY helped establish the formula otherwise they would have been a FOLK based harmony band.

The way this reads is that Al was almost a secondary member when they started out. Dave rehearsed the first record but wasn't there for the recording of it. So actually he was in the band at that point. So was Al. Both Al and Dave were playing local gigs. Dave was on the first contract, Al wasn't. Al then bolted, Dave stayed in the band. Then Al came back and recorded on a few album tracks, but wasn't pictured on the album covers. Plus he went on the road to replace Brian. They switched back and forth the first couple of years, then Dave left the band and Al was there to stay until he became a full-fledged Beach Boy in what, 1973?

There's the original/founding line up, and then there's the classic line up. The former is a question of definition, the latter the result of common acclaim. If you're being entirely picky - and that's so unlike me - David, while being undeniably part of the genesis of the band, wasn't on the first release or shows. However, rock & roll isn't so black and white: to me, David is an original.

For those splitting hairs, have any of YOU ever formed a band?  If so were you always lucky enough to hit on the magic formula with your first shot at putting together a line up?  And did that line up last beyond a few practices and/or one show?  Like Andrew said, it isn't always black and white.

[SMiLE Brian]

David barely sang on one song and played rythmn guitar on the very early albums. This guy was hardly a very important member in the BBs on that resume. Plus the band didn't seem too broken up when he left the group in 1963.

[clack]

So I see a few here are still differentiating "Founding" and "original" members. So in your own words (disregarding how it's defined in dictionaries on the Internet) please tell us the difference between the two!

Ok, here's how I distinguish between "founding" and "original". I'll take the Byrds as an example.

Gene Clark, Jim McGuinn, and David Crosby decide to form a rock group. Those 3 are the "founders". They extend invitations to several musicians (including Dino Valenti) in order  to round out the lineup, and Chris Hillman and Michael Clarke accept and pass the auditions. Hillman and Clarke are "original" members, but not founding members, according to my criteria -- criteria that I'm not claiming to be universal, but that is by no means unique to me. I've often seen Marty Balin and Paul Kantner, say, referred to as "co-founders" of Jefferson Airplane.

[Phoenix]

Good point but in this case, do you see Al as a founding member?  Because using the Balin/Kantner analogy, Brian was the sole "founder" of the Beach Boys.

[Mikie]

I've often seen Marty Balin and Paul Kantner, say, referred to as "co-founders" of Jefferson Airplane.

Balin was the flat out "Founder" who met Kantner who added Anderson and Kaukonen to the band (who could be considered "co-founders" and "original members"). So I think yeah, David Marks could be considered a "co-founder" too by definition, right?

[Phoenix]

I've often seen Marty Balin and Paul Kantner, say, referred to as "co-founders" of Jefferson Airplane.

Balin was the flat out "Founder".

That's what I thought too. 



* Off topic:  I was big on the whole Jefferson thing until Paul decided to slap the J Starship moniker on his revived Airplane.  Call a spade a spade Paul and stop dragging that name through the mud.  With the Airplane name he could be playing arenas again but instead he relegates the J Starship name to the county fair circuit.  Hell, if that's the plan, just call the band "Paul Kantner's Airplane". 

And now back to our discussion, already fully decided by both sides but apparently still fun and interestingly enough to discuss.

[bluesno1fann]

I think the Wilsons, Mike, Al, and Dave are the 6 "original" members.

But only the wilsons and mike could be called the "founding" members. (although I really don't think this matters one way or other).

And I'd say the "classic" lineup is the Wilsons, Mike, Al and Bruce.

I agree on the classic lineup. Most people say it's the Wilsons, Mike and Al. But really, it's the Wilsons, Mike, Al and Bruce!

[Mike's Beard]

Dave CLEARLY helped establish the formula otherwise they would have been a FOLK based harmony band.

Silly me. All these years I thought it was Mike and Brian who wrote Surfin'. Apparently it was Mr. Marks!

The way this reads is that Al was almost a secondary member when they started out. Dave rehearsed the first record but wasn't there for the recording of it. So actually he was in the band at that point. So was Al. Both Al and Dave were playing local gigs. Dave was on the first contract, Al wasn't. Al then bolted, Dave stayed in the band. Then Al came back and recorded on a few album tracks, but wasn't pictured on the album covers. Plus he went on the road to replace Brian. They switched back and forth the first couple of years, then Dave left the band and Al was there to stay until he became a full-fledged Beach Boy in what, 1973?

I do love how the Emperor of All Things Relating To David Marks doesn't jump in to correct misinformation like this when it suits his arguement.

For those splitting hairs, have any of YOU ever formed a band?  If so were you always lucky enough to hit on the magic formula with your first shot at putting together a line up?  And did that line up last beyond a few practices and/or one show?  Like Andrew said, it isn't always black and white.

Funny you should mention that, 'cos I was in several crappy high school bands. When the drummer left my first band after a few practices and the brother of the bassist joined in his place we didn't consider him to be our original drummer. Or when I joined another band as it's new bass player after the old one had left

[Phoenix]

Dave CLEARLY helped establish the formula otherwise they would have been a FOLK based harmony band.

Silly me. All these years I thought it was Mike and Brian who wrote Surfin'. Apparently it was Mr. Marks!

Quote from Jon:  "Compared to 'Surfin', this was metal. No sign of stand-up bass or folk sensibility on this recording. And the tiny amateurish guitar sound and lazy feel of the [earlier demo] World Pacific version of 'Surfin' Safari' had now transformed into something crisp and modern."

Quote from Al: "It was Carl and Dave who brought that electric guitar drive into the band and because of that, Brian was able to expand a little bit."

You REALLY think the early sound of the Beach Boys was defined by an acoustic guitar, a stand up bass, and a pencil on a snare drum?!?

For those splitting hairs, have any of YOU ever formed a band?  If so were you always lucky enough to hit on the magic formula with your first shot at putting together a line up?  And did that line up last beyond a few practices and/or one show?  Like Andrew said, it isn't always black and white.

Funny you should mention that, 'cos I was in several crappy high school bands. When the drummer left my first band after a few practices and the brother of the bassist joined in his place we didn't consider him to be our original drummer. Or when I joined another band as it's new bass player after the old one had left

And yet you DO consider Alan to be the Beach Boys' original rhythm guitarist?  He didn't even play guitar at that point, which is just another example of how in flux the band still was then. 

It's interesting to be so at odds with you on this topic, as I've noticed we usually share the same opinions.  But like the man said:

Board would be boring if everybody agreed.

[Mike's Beard]

So I see a few here are still differentiating "Founding" and "original" members. So in your own words (disregarding how it's defined in dictionaries on the Internet) please tell us the difference between the two!

Someone will make something up to their liking, to be sure.

Exactly. With no facts or other substantiation. Just to have something to argue about, I guess. Nothing else in the world to do at the moment. If it smacked 'em square in the face they would still argue no about it. Doc, you can't tell someone something that they don't want to hear.

Actually I have provided a ton of facts. As a matter of fact I provided all the band related activity prior to David Marks joining. Maybe I and others have been telling you something you don't want to hear? If you don't agree with it fine but please don't imply that I and others have just pulled our basis for arguing against out of our collective asses. Esp when the whole arguement for David Marks rests on the basis that he played with Carl and sometimes Brian prior to the band being formed.

[Mike's Beard]

You REALLY think the early sound of the Beach Boys was defined by an acoustic guitar, a stand up bass, and a pencil on a snare drum?!?

On their first record, yes.

Funny you should mention that, 'cos I was in several crappy high school bands. When the drummer left my first band after a few practices and the brother of the bassist joined in his place we didn't consider him to be our original drummer. Or when I joined another band as it's new bass player after the old one had left

And yet you DO consider Alan to be the Beach Boys' original rhythm guitarist?  He didn't even play guitar at that point, which is just another example of how in flux the band still was then.  

Whoops. My post was meant to highlight that we didn't consider the replacement drummer to be an original member. Because he wasn't. Just like David Marks.

And you are right; it would be boring if everyone agreed on everything all the time.

[Jim V.]

I don't know if say, I had a band, and while we practicing and playing our first shows, we had a bassist and then he quit. Then we got a new bassist and he played on the first recordings and we made a career out of it with him. I'd probably credit that guy as the "original" bassist, unless you wanna get incredibly specific about it.

Honestly, one would totally put Al in the position of the made-up situation I just thought of had he not actually been on the recording of "Surfin'" that started the group's recording career. Due to his presence on the first Beach Boys recording, I guess that truly makes him original.

On the other hand, it's kinda hard to say that the guy who was on their first album wasn't original, but due to this one single, it makes Dave a replacement member. If "Surfin'" were released under a different name or if it were released as an album track on the Surfin' Safari album before being released as a single, I might even say it would be different. But things turned out the way they did.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

So....who are the original Beatles? Is Stu Sutcliffe an original member? Who is the original drummer? It's not Pete Best...would Tommy Morrison count? Do we count the Beatles' time as the Silver Beetles? Is Bob Klose an original member of Pink Floyd? Who would you consider an original Yardbird...Top Topham or Eric Clapton?

Here's the thing...who was in the band on the very day where their name changed from the Pendletones to the Beach Boys in Nov 1961? If you consider that the point where the Beach Boys became official (whatever the hell that means), then Al is an original member rather than David. Now, if you take it as 'who was in the band when they signed to Capitol?', then Dave is an original as opposed to Al.

Personally, I think both Al and Dave are original members, and this argument is based on semantics...that was the point of the sarcastic first paragraph.

[Phoenix]

You REALLY think the early sound of the Beach Boys was defined by an acoustic guitar, a stand up bass, and a pencil on a snare drum?!?

On their first record, yes.

Yeah but to the general public, that song is an anomly on the first album and was ever more of one in 1962.  As I said, Dave (and Carl, Brian, Mike, and Al) all helped "establish or formulate the foundation" of the groups' sound.

Funny you should mention that, 'cos I was in several crappy high school bands. When the drummer left my first band after a few practices and the brother of the bassist joined in his place we didn't consider him to be our original drummer. Or when I joined another band as it's new bass player after the old one had left

And yet you DO consider Alan to be the Beach Boys' original rhythm guitarist?  He didn't even play guitar at that point, which is just another example of how in flux the band still was then. 

Whoops. My post was meant to highlight that we didn't consider the replacement drummer to be an original member. Because he wasn't. Just like David Marks.

OK, sorry.  I got it now.  I've actually been in both situations tho.

I was in a rock "school band" like in School of Rock.  At a concert we got a reception like Beatlemania (just because we played "cooler" stuff than the jazz ensemble and chorus) and decided right then to form a "real" band, outside the classroom.  The class was real uneven between guitarists and everything else so all the groups had to share the one singer but she was a girl and wouldn't fit for the "real" band.  So we strung her along until we found a guy just to have someone there.  And when we we got the guy we let her go and never considered her (or the other drummer who played a couple of songs at the initial concert) to be original members. To us, they were just people sitting in until things came together, which I think is how you see Dave's pre-Surfin' Safari time with the band.

But the thing is (to me) it was Al (and Audree, etc.) who filled that role with the Beach Boys.  They were just people sitting in until the band became what it was.  The difference is that Al came back within the first two years.  Mr Wilson stated a few pages back that Al was just "the new guy" to fans in 1964.  Fortunately we now know he and Dave were both floating in and out of the group at the same time "in the beginning", which is why I count them both.

I just think you can't put an exact date on when a band forms.  Is it when a guy convinces his friends to form a band after going to a concert?  Is it the first time they rehearse together?  Their first show?  When after numerous line up changes, they finally decide on a new, permanent name?  When they sign the record contract?  Release their first album?  What if they never do either?

For me, it's too many variables but before you know it, there's a band.  Then you look back, see who contributed what, and weed out the ones that don't count, like the other Quarrymen, my old bands' female singer, and had he not returned relatively quickly, Al.

And you are right; it would be boring if everyone agreed on everything all the time.

Definitely!  And if nothing else, we all share the same passion for these guys around here. 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I just think you can't put an exact date on when a band forms.  Is it when a guy convinces his friends to form a band after going to a concert?  Is it the first time they rehearse together?  Their first show?  When after numerous line up changes, they finally decide on a new, permanent name?  When they sign the record contract?  Release their first album?  What if they never do either?

Exactly! See my post above.

[Phoenix]

Personally, I think both Al and Dave are original members, and this argument is based on semantics...that was the point of the sarcastic first paragraph.

Yep.  Splitting hairs.  They both helped put the band on the map...at the same time!


Edit:  Obviously posted at the same time.    

[bluesno1fann]

So....who are the original Beatles? Is Stu Sutcliffe an original member? Who is the original drummer? It's not Pete Best...would Tommy Morrison count? Do we count the Beatles' time as the Silver Beetles? Is Bob Klose an original member of Pink Floyd? Who would you consider an original Yardbird...Top Topham or Eric Clapton?

I consider founding members as people who were members when they chose their final name. That means Stu Sutcliffe is a founding member, but Pete Best is not, as he joined shortly after as their first official drummer. Bob Klose is not an original member of Pink Floyd, he was a member of the Tea Set. He left the Tea Set in mid-1965, and they officially became Pink Floyd nearly a year later. Top is a founding member of the Yardbirds because he was a member when they chose the name The Yardbirds. Clapton joined and replaced Top 5 months later, so Clapton is not a founding member.
As for David Marks, he comes close to being a founding member, but he's not, as he wasn't a member when Candix records changed their name from Pendletones to the Beach Boys.

[MBE]

I suppose this is a question that dates can answer on one level. Not for me though. David to me is not separable from the era. He was around and contributed to the feel of what the Beach Boys were. Not too hard to pin down.

[Mike's Beard]

As for David Marks, he comes close to being a founding member, but he's not, as he wasn't a member when Candix records changed their name from Pendletones to the Beach Boys.

Which is exactly the crux of my argument. It's a technicality for sure, but a valid one which you can't really ignore. You can't just re-write history no matter how much the Marks Mafia wish to do so. BTW I'm very glad that Marks gets his rightly deserved accclaim these days after spending too many decades written off as 'the guy who briefly replaced Al Jardine while he attended Dental School"

Also consider this; if David Marks had never re-established contact with the band in the late 90s and been involved sporadically with various members since then, does anybody here honestly think his name and face would be flaunted on C50 material as an 'original member'? Of course he wouldn't.

[Pretty Funky]

Can a 'Does It Matter?' option be added to the poll please?

[Phoenix]

Also consider this; if David Marks had never re-established contact with the band in the late 90s and been involved sporadically with various members since then, does anybody here honestly think his name and face would be flaunted on C50 material as an 'original member'? Of course he wouldn't.

You got that right but all that means is he'd STILL be getting screwed over.  It doesn't change what happened 50 years ago (no matter which side your on), just that they never would have corrected their mistake.

[MBE]

If semantics are so important in this case let's argue that Candix and X called them "Beach Boys" not "The" Beach Boys. If that flies than David is in the original group "THE Beach Boys".

To me honestly he may not have been there in 1961, but the band really was not a "band" until around the time David joined so it counts.

[bluesno1fann]

As for David Marks, he comes close to being a founding member, but he's not, as he wasn't a member when Candix records changed their name from Pendletones to the Beach Boys.

Also consider this; if David Marks had never re-established contact with the band in the late 90s and been involved sporadically with various members since then, does anybody here honestly think his name and face would be flaunted on C50 material as an 'original member'? Of course he wouldn't.

Doubtful. But in any case I'm glad he re-established contact, things turned out really well from that!