VDP: "victimised by Brian Wilson's buffoonery"

[guitarfool2002]

I thought I read an interview or two with Van Dyke Parks where he said that he didn't write a single note of music on SMiLE, and that the music's all Brian's. Is that true or is that another example of Van Dyke Parks saying something that isn't true or has to be "interpreted"?

Let me just propose this and let your ears interpret the music: Did the music Brian was recording when he was working with Van Dyke in late 66-early 67 resemble Pet Sounds, or any of the albums that followed in 1967? Or is it more unique? Listen specifically to the orchestrations and the combinations of instruments within the arrangements, and how certain parts interact with each other which is a change from both Pet Sounds, and closer to but still not what Brian did on Good Vibrations. Not to mention some specific sounds and textures which would seem to have come from Van Dyke's recording of Donovan's "Colours".

However much Van Dyke wants to say he did or didn't do on Smile, and as usual some of what he says does need interpretation or at least reading between the lines to get to the point, our ears can certainly detect at least a mutual influence between the two musicians. If not more.

I can't provide specifics right now, but there is more than one case of Van Dyke downplaying his role in the past.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I thought I read an interview or two with Van Dyke Parks where he said that he didn't write a single note of music on SMiLE, and that the music's all Brian's. Is that true or is that another example of Van Dyke Parks saying something that isn't true or has to be "interpreted"?

Let me just propose this and let your ears interpret the music: Did the music Brian was recording when he was working with Van Dyke in late 66-early 67 resemble Pet Sounds, or any of the albums that followed in 1967? Or is it more unique? Listen specifically to the orchestrations and the combinations of instruments within the arrangements, and how certain parts interact with each other which is a change from both Pet Sounds, and closer to but still not what Brian did on Good Vibrations. Not to mention some specific sounds and textures which would seem to have come from Van Dyke's recording of Donovan's "Colours".

However much Van Dyke wants to say he did or didn't do on Smile, and as usual some of what he says does need interpretation or at least reading between the lines to get to the point, our ears can certainly detect at least a mutual influence between the two musicians. If not more.

I can't provide specifics right now, but there is more than one case of Van Dyke downplaying his role in the past.

You know what guitarfool2002, your perfectly fine post, and I mean that with no sarcasm, was a long way of answering my question that Van Dyke Parks says things in interviews that simply aren't true. Which, come to think of it, makes him a perfect fit with the other Beach Boys and their interviewing skills. Seriously, I have a problem with the guy, I said what I have to say, and I should probably bow out of further discussion about him, which I will.

[guitarfool2002]

I thought I read an interview or two with Van Dyke Parks where he said that he didn't write a single note of music on SMiLE, and that the music's all Brian's. Is that true or is that another example of Van Dyke Parks saying something that isn't true or has to be "interpreted"?

Let me just propose this and let your ears interpret the music: Did the music Brian was recording when he was working with Van Dyke in late 66-early 67 resemble Pet Sounds, or any of the albums that followed in 1967? Or is it more unique? Listen specifically to the orchestrations and the combinations of instruments within the arrangements, and how certain parts interact with each other which is a change from both Pet Sounds, and closer to but still not what Brian did on Good Vibrations. Not to mention some specific sounds and textures which would seem to have come from Van Dyke's recording of Donovan's "Colours".

However much Van Dyke wants to say he did or didn't do on Smile, and as usual some of what he says does need interpretation or at least reading between the lines to get to the point, our ears can certainly detect at least a mutual influence between the two musicians. If not more.

I can't provide specifics right now, but there is more than one case of Van Dyke downplaying his role in the past.

You know what guitarfool2002, your perfectly fine post, and I mean that with no sarcasm, was a long way of answering my question that Van Dyke Parks says things in interviews that simply aren't true. Which, come to think of it, makes him a perfect fit with the other Beach Boys and their interviewing skills. Seriously, I have a problem with the guy, I said what I have to say, and I should probably bow out of further discussion about him, which I will.

   I do want to clarify one phrase I used in the post, because I know a simple turn of a phrase can be picked out and interpreted to mean something other than intended: I said Not to mention some specific sounds and textures which would seem to have come from Van Dyke's recording of Donovan's "Colours"

That's a bad way of saying what I wanted to say, obviously the VDP recording came later, but it's a musical sensibility we can hear in "Colors" which we also hear at various times with Smile, and it's a very unique musical sense that Brian didn't explore on Pet Sounds, hinted at for Good Vibrations, and all but discarded after Smile collapsed. The conclusions which we each draw from that are up to how we each interpret what we hear and think about that music.

[AndrewHickey]

I don't know the exact interview to which SherrifJohnStone is referring, but depending on exactly what was said, there's no reason to think Parks was lying. He may well not have written a note of the songs, but have contributed to the arrangements -- which are, after all, the things that sound more like him than Brian. Remember that Parks was a professional arranger at that time, and no professional arranger would dream of taking credit for writing the music -- they arrange it.

(Which is not to say that Parks was the sole, or even principal, arranger on Smile, but that he contributed arrangement ideas).

[Cam Mott]

Van Dyke has said he didn't write any music, he put a syllable to a note or something. I don't remember hearing anything in interview or tape where VDP is arranging. Is there an instance? I remember VDP did play instruments and Brian did ask him about levels and something about tempo. I know VDP has said he was influenced by Brian but I've never heard of any claim of Brian being influenced by VDP. On the other hand, it probably would be hard not to influence each other during a collaboration.

[Mike's Beard]

I have always thought that the music on Smile had Van Dyke's fingerprints all over it from the moment I heard Song Cycle. However as the guy has always maintained he only wrote the lyrics and the music was all Brian's, I just assumed that my imagination was working overtime. Why if what guitarfool says is true do both parties continue to lie about the extent of VD's involvement? Is it because the extent of his contributions might step on the myth of "Brian Wilson - genius songwriter/arranger/producer"?

[KittyKat]

The fact that "Smile" de-volved into "Smiley Smile" might be taken as evidence that Van Dyke has some influence on the arrangements and studio work. Not only was Brian not as musically well-educated as Van Dyke Parks, he was starting to become diminished even in terms of his own skills at that point, at least in terms of getting a product finished. SS was an easier project, starting from scratch to finish.

[Nicko1234]

The fact that "Smile" de-volved into "Smiley Smile" might be taken as evidence that Van Dyke has some influence on the arrangements and studio work. Not only was Brian not as musically well-educated as Van Dyke Parks, he was starting to become diminished even in terms of his own skills at that point, at least in terms of getting a product finished. SS was an easier project, starting from scratch to finish.

I think that had a LOT more to do with Brian's new direction (or lack of direction).

[Cam Mott]

What had VDP done before he began work with Brian and was he the producer and arranger on those recordings? SMiLE is different for Brian to my ears too but is it really out of the arc from the earlier albums through PS through the multiple versions of GV and on to SMiLE? Interesting.

[runnersdialzero]

The fact that "Smile" de-volved into "Smiley Smile" might be taken as evidence that Van Dyke has some influence on the arrangements and studio work. Not only was Brian not as musically well-educated as Van Dyke Parks, he was starting to become diminished even in terms of his own skills at that point, at least in terms of getting a product finished. SS was an easier project, starting from scratch to finish.

It was a voluntary change in sound and style. Breaking these things down to their bare elements in order to complete them, i.e. the complete opposite approach that Smile had.

[MBE]

I thought I read an interview or two with Van Dyke Parks where he said that he didn't write a single note of music on SMiLE, and that the music's all Brian's. Is that true or is that another example of Van Dyke Parks saying something that isn't true or has to be "interpreted"?

Let me just propose this and let your ears interpret the music: Did the music Brian was recording when he was working with Van Dyke in late 66-early 67 resemble Pet Sounds, or any of the albums that followed in 1967? Or is it more unique? Listen specifically to the orchestrations and the combinations of instruments within the arrangements, and how certain parts interact with each other which is a change from both Pet Sounds, and closer to but still not what Brian did on Good Vibrations. Not to mention some specific sounds and textures which would seem to have come from Van Dyke's recording of Donovan's "Colours".

However much Van Dyke wants to say he did or didn't do on Smile, and as usual some of what he says does need interpretation or at least reading between the lines to get to the point, our ears can certainly detect at least a mutual influence between the two musicians. If not more.

I can't provide specifics right now, but there is more than one case of Van Dyke downplaying his role in the past.

You know what guitarfool2002, your perfectly fine post, and I mean that with no sarcasm, was a long way of answering my question that Van Dyke Parks says things in interviews that simply aren't true. Which, come to think of it, makes him a perfect fit with the other Beach Boys and their interviewing skills. Seriously, I have a problem with the guy, I said what I have to say, and I should probably bow out of further discussion about him, which I will.

SJS I feel you. If someone doesn't want to know something that shakes their image of someone they will yell louder than you. That's what happened on this thread, because for some reason Brian is being made to be as big of an idiot as he was in that movie Van Dyke hates. OK Van Dyke is world famous on his own, the kindest, most egoless, most honest performer ever! He  wrote Brian's Smile music, and Smiley was the only thing Brian could do without him because Brian was an addict who misbehaved in the studio. I've been told to "shut up" and that Van Dyke knows more about Brian's problems than I do. The latter is obviously true as they were on and off friends and collaborators., but that's why I so dislike the things he says about the man. He of all people should be a bit more understanding, or at least quit being so negative in public.

[Wirestone]

I don't see a lot of yelling here. There just seems to be lot of pushback -- as in my mind there should be -- against the idea that Van Dyke is somehow an asshole, rather than a complicated, talented guy who has been rather used by the BW/BB camp over the years.

And not a single person has suggested that Van Dyke wrote the Smile music. The theory put forward is that he was a musical sounding board and contributed arrangement ideas -- something that Tony Asher claims to have done for Pet Sounds. For that matter, it's something that nearly all of Brian's collaborators (minus Mike, perhaps) have done -- Usher, Asher, Paley, Thomas and Bennett. Most of these guys aren't professional arrangers either, as Parks was and is.

None of this, of course, makes Brian an idiot. As I've posted here repeatedly, one of Brian's overlooked -- and strongest -- talents is collaboration. He latches onto talented, unusual people and great players. He pushes them to make great things, and they push him in return. That's how so much of his music works. Even something as auteur-sh as Pet Sounds was arguably co-arranged by the Wrecking Crew and co-produced by Chuck Britz.

[AndrewHickey]

I don't see a lot of yelling here. There just seems to be lot of pushback -- as in my mind there should be -- against the idea that Van Dyke is somehow an asshole, rather than a complicated, talented guy who has been rather used by the BW/BB camp over the years.

And not a single person has suggested that Van Dyke wrote the Smile music. The theory put forward is that he was a musical sounding board and contributed arrangement ideas -- something that Tony Asher claims to have done for Pet Sounds. For that matter, it's something that nearly all of Brian's collaborators (minus Mike, perhaps) have done -- Usher, Asher, Paley, Thomas and Bennett. Most of these guys aren't professional arrangers either, as Parks was and is.

Exactly. And that goes perfectly well with Van Dyke's statements that he didn't have any input into the musical side of the songwriting, and put one syllable per note. Suggesting, for example, that a melody line be played on a marimba rather than a clarinet, or that a cello double a violin part an octave down, would not require him to have written a single note of music for the songs. And we *know* he made a suggestion of that type on Good Vibrations -- the cello part. Nobody in the world would think for a second that that means he wrote the music for Good Vibrations.

[MBE]

First you are very correct about Brian's talent as far as working with other people. Very nicely said.

I was being a bit sarcastic as far as the comments from Kittykat and Mike's Beard on the Smile music. Not because I don't respect them, (which I do) but because I don't want the talent of Brian being underestimated. Van Dyke did make suggestions, so did The Beach Boys, and so did the "Wrecking Crew", but I think the music Brian wrote in 1966 was basically his own very unique vision.

I still don't see why the push back on me. I praised Van Dyke's work with Brian (nobody else could have done better with Smile), but commented that he can say things that rub me the wrong way. That was the subject of the thread so I gave my two cents.  I said he has talent of his own, but that meeting Brian Wilson spread word of that talent to a lot of people. Even that rather obvious observation didn't get accepted.

It's not that I am trying to take away any of the good things Parks has done as an artist or human being, but it seems to me that for some he is beyond reproach. After all isn't it human to be an asshole at times?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I agree, Mike.

[Gertie J.]

yeah that sounds about right.

[Shady]

I'm a total asshole at times...and human.

So that makes sense. 

[MBE]

Very thankful I am understood. I hope you all know my take on things is in no way meant to negate anyone else's. Now let's all get along and then we'll have world peace.

[AndrewHickey]

I said he has talent of his own, but that meeting Brian Wilson spread word of that talent to a lot of people. Even that rather obvious observation didn't get accepted.

Yes it did, it was merely the conclusions you drew from that -- that because working with the Beach Boys made Parks better known (even though he has never wanted to be well-known), he therefore owes his career to Brian, and so ever making a very slightly negative statement about him in public makes him 'an asshole', that didn't get accepted, because it's not the truth.

[BergenWhitesMoustache]

I said he has talent of his own, but that meeting Brian Wilson spread word of that talent to a lot of people. Even that rather obvious observation didn't get accepted.

Yes it did, it was merely the conclusions you drew from that -- that because working with the Beach Boys made Parks better known (even though he has never wanted to be well-known), he therefore owes his career to Brian, and so ever making a very slightly negative statement about him in public makes him 'an asshole', that didn't get accepted, because it's not the truth.

Cosine. It reminds me of stuff you'd see from Justin Bieber fans, actually.

"VDP would be NOTHING without Brian Wilson, he should WATCH HIS MOUTH"

I'd concede that perhaps, in the industry his name became a little better known for his Beach Boys association, for a bit in '67 and lots more since 2004, but in terms of wildly affecting his career? The guy has been a jobbing composer for film and television stuff for years now. And in that industry you don't have "1964: Arranged the Bare Necessities' on your CV and end up wanting for work.

It could equally be argued that The Beach Boys owe VDP...after all, he got them signed to Warners, fished out Sail on Sailor.

How would their career have gone if they'd ended up signed to a label that just accepted the first, shitty version of Sunflower, accepted Holland without 'sail on sailor' on there.

Also: Brian Wilson is quite clearly a buffoon.

[MBE]

Andrew may I try one more time to relate to you? I feel you are misreading me or at least the tone I am taking. Let me talk more generally here.

I have had the good fortune over the last twenty odd years to be in touch people in the music business that I admire. Some are very close friends, some are just business acquaintances. In both cases I get told things in confidence that I don't repeat. Sometimes I've had to use my own discretion as far as what to share, sometimes I am told not to share. Mostly they have to do with ego, life on the road, or personal and monetary honesty within a band. Some of these folks are hard up for money or recognition and can get plenty for what they have told me. I was was making a point (which I have always made) that I find anyone airing private grievances to be in the wrong.

I think you can be honest, but get your point across without hurting ones feelings. They are all people like you and me and words do hurt, especially those from someone you once considered a friend or partner. The late Paul Williams was an inspiration to me when I was starting out. He wrote something once about when he met Bob Dylan how Bob was genuinely hurt by something he wrote. Dylan was especially disappointed because he felt Williams did a great job in the rest of the article. He was always honest from then on, but didn't take shots. It stuck with me strongly.

We have a public form here where debate is encouraged. We are all pretty open non PC critics when it comes to the music and even the lives of these people. What is made public is fair game, and in the case of Van Dyke he went public with me. I still would never speak about it in a book, magazine, or personal webpage. It has nothing to do with his art, and I like that as much as before. Here we were asked our opinion about what he said about Brian and I was honest.
 
I never once said he was an asshole, only that he has done things I personally object to as far as Brian and Mike go. I don't think he owes them his career (though I stick by what I said as far as most people generally knowing who he is through Smile), but I find him unprofessional in his manner about them. Saying we all can be assholes is letting him off the hook. I only said that much because I do give credence to people who had good experiences. Trust me if he talked about you in the smarmy false manner he did with me, you wouldn't love the guy. He doesn't do the celeb thing? OK cool than he should consider my time to be as important as his. I wanted to talk it out, he refused. You know people have arguments, disagreements, and lawsuits, they don't trumpet to the press. Many people actually talk to one another and work things out.

I have nothing left to add, but it's awful to have people tell me what I feel or think. It really is a drag and I hope we can stop this now.

[BergenWhitesMoustache]

If this thread were a person, it'd be a 7 stone weakling who gets sand kicked in his face by bullies at the beach type guy.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Actually, I think this thread is the bully kicking sand in people's faces here, or rather some of the posts in here make it seem that way. This thread is really starting to piss me off.  I hate how Parks is deified here to the point where if anybody criticizes him they are  torn to shreds here. Same thing happened to me here a couple of years ago; being called 'stupid' and of 'low intelligence' because I don't care for most of his work pissed me off to the point I almost left this board for good. And for the record, I'm going to say this...with my (very limited) experiences with those in the BB's world, only three individuals weren't friendly, and VDP was one of them. God forbid I bring that up here again, though.

[Peter Reum]

I think a point made above is well taken. Whether celebrities are personable or not, they are people first, have bad days, or even are very sensitive to what people write about them. I know most people around the group read these boards. What we say here does ripple through to the people we write or speculate about.

[hypehat]

I'm also thinking aloud, if Van was the lyricist and the lyrics had been written already, what was the need for him to be around at the studio sessions anyway?

This has been addressed in a few other threads. The condensed version, since my writing a more expanded and time-consuming post then having it ignored is annoying as hell:

Van Dyke was responsible for and involved in creating more aspects of Smile than just the lyrics.

Also: Van Dyke was a session musician, and a very talented one at that. Why not have him along?

Peter Reum is, as usual, on the money.