Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000

[guitarfool2002]

Sheriff, I agree with many of your points in your reply, and they were very well made. The only one I have a different opinion on might be Brian's overall involvement, and that's just a difference of opinion from afar. After looking at all things Smile, there is always the sense that many aspects appear as a conundrum rather than a definite answer when we try to put the pieces of the story together. I'm afraid certain things will always be that way when telling the history.

I think your reply and mine both lead back to opening up those other cans of worms that lead to other subjects of discussion, which as this thread proves is usually the case with Smile!

Perhaps some points and some questions just have too many holes to fill, or are points which have simply been forgotten with time. I think of that Beatles Anthology montage they included where Paul George and Ringo are asked the same question and each remembers specific details different from the others. It's funny how they edited it, but it stands as an example of the only three guys who were actually there and who could answer such questions not being able to agree on exactly what happened, yet they all remember it. Just like the other Beatle-related questions about who-played-what like the guitar harmonies on "And Your Bird Can Sing"...no one has said for sure who it was, yet two of them played it in 1966.

With Smile, specifically the 2004 staging for the live shows, I think of preparing a dinner party...in my own bizarre way of using analogies to explain my thinking.

Brian had already created the recipes, he had already cooked the food, he had everything ready to go from his kitchen. The only thing left to do was to plate the food, garnish it, and serve it...and as you said, the live staging stayed pretty true to what we already had heard on the majority of those tracks. So Brian as head chef had everything ready to go, but needed a sous chef or a party planner to *execute* the meal, or in this case put all his prepared dishes into something organized and presentable that could be served to the guests.

In that way, I'd almost suggest Brian's work was all but complete back in 1967 with the work he left in the vaults. I'm trying to think how much more exactly he could have personally done in 2003 or 2004 to make his involvement seem any greater than it already was.

If we accept that much if not most of the live show was already in existence on tape in the vaults, minus the obvious segue material and newer lyrics from Van Dyke, wouldn't it be like suggesting that the sous chef or party planner who made everything presentable and served the dinner guests in an organized way had actually done more than the head chef whose work was already done in the kitchen, and whose original recipes had already formed the foundation of the meal itself?

[Cam Mott]

For what it is worth, these are the known parts recorded for the presumed side 2 of the two sided H&V single. They are all noted for the H&V Part II master #57045 which is noted as "side 2" on the first session box of January 5. I included the session numbers from the AFMs after the master number because I noticed again that all of the known sessions are shown as consecutive session number with letter designation beginning with 14247 and then 14247-A through 14247-D which is also significant and had been explained to me at one time but I don't remember what the significance is exactly.

I put the TSS CD and track numbers on there where they are known [according to c-man] but March 2 just has notes about the musicians.

January 5    
Heroes & Villains - Part 2; “Side 2”;   57045/14247
Bicycle Rider overdubs:  TTS CD 3: 5

February 27      
Heroes & Villains - Part II   57045/14247-A
Chorus backing on single version: TSS CD 2: 27

February 28    
Heroes & Villains - Part II Insert   57045/14247-B;
“Fade out to Heroes and Villians” w/ Carl vocal: TSS CD 2: 28
 
March 1    
Heroes & Villains - Part II  57045/14247-C
Verse remake   TSS CD 2: 29
“Intro to Heroes and Villains”   TSS CD 2: 30

March 2    
Heroes & Villains, Part II (Insert)   57045/14247-D
Musicians: Hal Blaine, Gene Estes, Carol Kaye, Lyle Ritz

So basically this seems to be the gist of the known side 2 of a two sided H&V single. Is there anything noteable about the keys etc. in comparison to the tracks recorded for H&V master #57020.  The master #s are noted by c-man in the TSS booklet.  Take timing for Part II?

So I guess Part II was  at least the intro [Elements] and the fade [YAMS] with the chorus [DYLW], verse [H&V side 1], and something yet to be identified [?] presumably with percussion and basses in between.

[bgas]

Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

Smile scholar I'm not.  whether Brian had a grand plan, I don't know either.
What I do know:  Coach told me many many many times that Brian remembered/remembers everything. He said that if he wants, he could tell you what instrument was played/ by whom/ on what day/studio etc for any/every session he ever did.    I have to believe that applies as much to Smile as anything; after all, Smile was one of Bob's best subjects! ( Miss you,dude! )
 The trick of the trick is getting Brian to want to tell.  Good luck on that. 

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

"Dit Dit Dit Heroes and Villians"

Could that have been a link to IIGS?

[SenorPotatoHead]

I don't see the repetition of musical phrases/parts as being unthinkable.  The idea that he cannibalized other songs for H&V, leaving the other songs "dead in the water", doesn't necessarily hold up.   It was to be a modern music (pop/rock/teenage) symphony (to God, no less), yes?  I'm no expert on symphonies, but do they not self reference within themselves certain key musical passages, at times perhaps anyway?  Maybe they don't, I'm asking anyone out here who may know (yes, I could Google it or something, but it's late here and I'm tired).   The musical passages that are repeated in Smile - the Bicycle Rider theme for instance, is done differently each time (i.e. it is different musically in DYLW than it is in H&V), so that may be something that was fully intended to happen.  Maybe not, I don't know.  Perhaps someone else does know.....

[Cam Mott]

If I'm right about the evidence, the H&V Part II BR section wouldn't have been on the album. It would have been on the side 2 of the single along with other altered reference to tracks on the album. Same with the second YAMS fade with Carl. Same with the Fire like H&V Part II intro. So it wouldn't really be a "conflict" among songs on the album anyway.

[guitarfool2002]

Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

Smile scholar I'm not.  whether Brian had a grand plan, I don't know either.
What I do know:  Coach told me many many many times that Brian remembered/remembers everything. He said that if he wants, he could tell you what instrument was played/ by whom/ on what day/studio etc for any/every session he ever did.    I have to believe that applies as much to Smile as anything; after all, Smile was one of Bob's best subjects! ( Miss you,dude! )
 The trick of the trick is getting Brian to want to tell.  Good luck on that.  

I didn't want to jump in on this too much, but it reminded me of when he sent me a message online to give him a call, which I did. When he picked up the phone, I could hear Smile music being played in the background! After that ended he put on Hawaii '67, I think that was what he wanted to talk about. But I sheepishly began asking questions, the usual who-when-where-what does it sound like kind of stuff. The conversation came around to meeting Brian, after he described talking to Brian's buddies from school. If I remember, he said understanding that part of Brian's life was key to making sense of Smile, focus on who Brian was, what he was like, how he acted among those friends when they were in school, all that stuff, because some of those elements of his personality came out in Smile.

And that stuck with me, and it also puts a different angle on how I view certain bits of audio versus seeing them as a bunch of guys goofing off in the studio...but I digress.

Anyway, he described a meeting with Brian. And the main thing i took away was when he described sitting down in the room with him, and instead of a list of questions and all that, they struck up a conversation about baseball, the Dodgers (obviously!) if I recall, and just began casually shooting the sh*t back and forth like regular people sharing a common interest and enjoying themselves. And his point was, I think, that Brian isn't the image many perceive or assume or imagine when he's just relaxing and kicking back with good people and friends, and yes he can recall and remember specific events that would probably blow our minds. But we don't get that from interviews and TV appearances.

And I think, again not to jump in but to add to what Bgas is saying, those are the times when he'd be more likely to let his guard down and just have a friendly chat, rather than being interviewed or recorded or knowing his words would be dissected and analyzed by a myriad of fans and "scholars". And if he gets a few specifics wrong or whatever, that wouldn't be the takeaway.

Bgas' post made me think of a really fun and informative phone conversation that (wow...) at this point happened 10+ years ago, and I gathered that was the Reverend's style, to share and discuss like that. And just when you thought you had something Smile-related all figured out, the Reverend might add one thing into the mix which would blow your perfect theory out of the water and start a new search mission for more info. Very cool.

[monicker]

Smile scholar I'm not.  whether Brian had a grand plan, I don't know either.
What I do know:  Coach told me many many many times that Brian remembered/remembers everything. He said that if he wants, he could tell you what instrument was played/ by whom/ on what day/studio etc for any/every session he ever did.    I have to believe that applies as much to Smile as anything; after all, Smile was one of Bob's best subjects! ( Miss you,dude! )
 The trick of the trick is getting Brian to want to tell.  Good luck on that. 

And his point was, I think, that Brian isn't the image many perceive or assume or imagine when he's just relaxing and kicking back with good people and friends, and yes he can recall and remember specific events that would probably blow our minds. But we don't get that from interviews and TV appearances.

So, what, Brian is playing dumb in interviews when an interviewer mentions something very basic to him about BB history and he responds with "Is that right? Holy cow!"? Or when he's off on the year of a song/album, or says assuredly that so-and-so played on such-and-such song, when the AFM sheet and session tapes reveal that it was someone else...that's just a put on? I'm not doubting at all that Brian is very different in private than he is in interviews, and that talking to him casually about unrelated things is probably the best way to get him to open up about other things, but i am questioning the claim that he has impeccable memory. I mean, if true, that truly would blow my mind, and i'd really be scratching my head trying to make sense of decade's worth of interviews.

[seltaeb1012002]

Bgas' post made me think of a really fun and informative phone conversation that (wow...) at this point happened 10+ years ago, and I gathered that was the Reverend's style, to share and discuss like that. And just when you thought you had something Smile-related all figured out, the Reverend might add one thing into the mix which would blow your perfect theory out of the water and start a new search mission for more info. Very cool.

Sort of OT. The last time I had an in depth convo with the late great Bob on the phone was probably about 10 years ago as well. Granted I was pretty young at the time.. and I apologize profusely if I'm going nuts here. But didn't Bob once throw out that a respected source thought they came up on an acetate of at least "one side" of a SMiLE album? Am I the only one that remembers this? Either way I'd imagine it's been debunked since we haven't heard about it since.

[runnersdialzero]

I've often gotten a mental picture of Darian at his laptop and Brian sitting on a couch, and Darian asking, "Was 'He Gives Speeches' a part of SMiLE..."? And, Brian simply responding, "No, I junked that...." And that was the end of that.

Brian Wilson on the subject of "He Gives Speeches", 1966: "THIS IS GONNA BE SO GREAT I'M NOT KIDDING" (presumably followed with "srsly u guyz" after the fade on the TSS edit)
Brian Wilson on the subject of "He Gives Speeches", 2003: "Naw. Junk that flaming pile of sh*t."

[Dunderhead]

I think Brian returned to the studio most days, beginning from January 1967 onwards, with the resolution that it would be the final session necessary to complete the track.

[Cam Mott]

Exactly but I would say that is true of all SMiLE. Brian had everything thought through before he went to the studio. After a session or few he had the whole song, anything after that is an adjustment which he had also thought through before he went to the studio. He recorded only what he needed to make the adjustment he had planned. Adjustment does not equal confusion or struggle or obsession. It didn't for GV and it didn't for SMiLE and H&V.

[hypehat]

Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

Smile scholar I'm not.  whether Brian had a grand plan, I don't know either.
What I do know:  Coach told me many many many times that Brian remembered/remembers everything. He said that if he wants, he could tell you what instrument was played/ by whom/ on what day/studio etc for any/every session he ever did.    I have to believe that applies as much to Smile as anything; after all, Smile was one of Bob's best subjects! ( Miss you,dude! )
 The trick of the trick is getting Brian to want to tell.  Good luck on that. 

With all respect to Bob Hanes, I think that's at best EXTREMELY wishful thinking. Brian Wilson isn't a MENSA level genius with nigh on total recall. He's a smart dude, but NO-ONE remembers exactly what they were doing on a Tuesday afternoon forty years ago. He's not a safe waiting to be cracked. He may have a good memory (and we've seen evidence of that when he's in a good mood), but he's not the fucking rain man or something.

[The Heartical Don]

Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

Smile scholar I'm not.  whether Brian had a grand plan, I don't know either.
What I do know:  Coach told me many many many times that Brian remembered/remembers everything. He said that if he wants, he could tell you what instrument was played/ by whom/ on what day/studio etc for any/every session he ever did.    I have to believe that applies as much to Smile as anything; after all, Smile was one of Bob's best subjects! ( Miss you,dude! )
 The trick of the trick is getting Brian to want to tell.  Good luck on that. 

With all respect to Bob Hanes, I think that's at best EXTREMELY wishful thinking. Brian Wilson isn't a MENSA level genius with nigh on total recall. He's a smart dude, but NO-ONE remembers exactly what they were doing on a Tuesday afternoon forty years ago. He's not a safe waiting to be cracked. He may have a good memory (and we've seen evidence of that when he's in a good mood), but he's not the fucking rain man or something.

Intriguing debate, this. I would not exclude the possibility of Bob H. having been onto something here. I am pretty certain that Brian's mind and brain work very differently, compared to those of an average person. I will return on the matter tomorrow (gotta log out in haste, glad that I just caught this on time).

[Shady]

Yeah, I don't buy that theory.

I've seen Brian have moments of clarity but I think the drugs have done a number on his memory

[Mikie]

Coach told me many many many times that Brian remembered/remembers everything. He said that if he wants, he could tell you what instrument was played/ by whom/ on what day/studio etc for any/every session he ever did.

Reverend Bob Hanes, Church of The Harmonic Overdub told you that?  I have a hard time believing that Bob said that, and if he did, he was exaggerating. I never heard him say (or write) that. If that were the case, don't you think by now that Brian would have sat down with Darian or Jeff or another interviewer that he trusted and one of them would have taken notes on every small detail and documented all of it? Why wouldn't Brian have done it by now, especially since he's had "closure" with BWPS and the "Beach Boys Smile Sessions" release? If that were the case, why wouldn't he have sat down with Boyd or Linett or the writers of the Sessions booklet or Priore and put all speculation to rest? I don't buy it. Especially after 40+ years of trying to forget the damn thing.

That's kinda like saying, if there was a conspiracy in the JFK assassination, why hasn't someone in the past 50 years come forth to verify it with evidence? Well, kinda like that.......

[bgas]

Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

Smile scholar I'm not.  whether Brian had a grand plan, I don't know either.
What I do know:  Coach told me many many many times that Brian remembered/remembers everything. He said that if he wants, he could tell you what instrument was played/ by whom/ on what day/studio etc for any/every session he ever did.    I have to believe that applies as much to Smile as anything; after all, Smile was one of Bob's best subjects! ( Miss you,dude! )
 The trick of the trick is getting Brian to want to tell.  Good luck on that. 

With all respect to Bob Hanes, I think that's at best EXTREMELY wishful thinking. Brian Wilson isn't a MENSA level genius with nigh on total recall. He's a smart dude, but NO-ONE remembers exactly what they were doing on a Tuesday afternoon forty years ago. He's not a safe waiting to be cracked. He may have a good memory (and we've seen evidence of that when he's in a good mood), but he's not the fucking rain man or something.

Whether Brian is or isn't, I think Marilu Henner and those folks with the same gift?  might argue your  NO-ONE point:
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/05/01/seen-at-11-rare-mental-condition-gives-actress-henner-super-human-memory/

[SenorPotatoHead]

That's kinda like saying, if there was a conspiracy in the JFK assassination, why hasn't someone in the past 50 years come forth to verify it with evidence? Well, kinda like that.......

JFK And The Unspeakable by James W. Douglass makes it pretty plain and apparent that all these years of conspiracy speculation have not been unfounded (as pertains to JFK's assassination).   

Now back to the Beach Boys.... 

[Mikie]

Oswald has rolled over in his grave many times laughing at all the conspiracy theories. Heard a new one lately? You can make big bucks off of it! No conspiracy theory has ever been confirmed in the past 50 years, including by someone on their death bed. Read Posner & Bugliosi - just two of many investigators/authors who subscribe to the lone gunman theory.

And now a word from our sponser....

[Peter Reum]

Bob told me that story about the Side 1 acetate. I took with a grain of salt, simply because we both like to fish, and record collector stories about the one that got away are pretty similar to fishin' stories. That said, never say never, because just when you do, a UFO flies over your head and winks at you!

[ash]

Oswald has rolled over in his grave many times laughing at all the conspiracy theories. Heard a new one lately? You can make big bucks off of it! No conspiracy theory has ever been confirmed in the past 50 years, including by someone on their death bed. Read Posner & Bugliosi - just two of many investigators/authors who subscribe to the lone gunman theory.

And now a word from our sponser....

Posner and Bugliosi probably made big bucks too.
As for  Smile and the Heroes and Villains conundrum there is no magic bullet solution.

[SenorPotatoHead]

Oswald has rolled over in his grave many times laughing at all the conspiracy theories. Heard a new one lately? You can make big bucks off of it! No conspiracy theory has ever been confirmed in the past 50 years, including by someone on their death bed. Read Posner & Bugliosi - just two of many investigators/authors who subscribe to the lone gunman theory.

And now a word from our sponser....

I'm just recommending the book (since you brought the topic up), you can read it or not, don't matter to me either way.  

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Oswald has rolled over in his grave many times laughing at all the conspiracy theories. Heard a new one lately? You can make big bucks off of it! No conspiracy theory has ever been confirmed in the past 50 years, including by someone on their death bed. Read Posner & Bugliosi - just two of many investigators/authors who subscribe to the lone gunman theory.

And now a word from our sponser....

I'm just recommending the book (since you brought the topic up), you can read it or not, don't matter to me either way.  

Mikie is extremely well acquainted with both sides of this issue. I followed very extensive discussions on the subject years ago on the Cabinessence board and he was the expert on the subject. Like any rational-thinking person though, he didn't find any value in the conspiracy theory angle. I agree too - it's one of the most unfounded positions I have ever encountered but has led to a major industry.

[ash]

It's an excellent book. RFK jnr personally congratulated Douglass on it apparently.
Not sure what Allen Dulles and David Atlee Phillips can add to the debate on Heroes and Villains part 1 and 2 though.

[seltaeb1012002]

Bob told me that story about the Side 1 acetate. I took with a grain of salt, simply because we both like to fish, and record collector stories about the one that got away are pretty similar to fishin' stories. That said, never say never, because just when you do, a UFO flies over your head and winks at you!

I thought he said that. Glad to know I'm not crazy. Man, imagine?