SMiLE Sessions box set!

[Bill Tobelman]

The way a photo shoot typically works is that they take a lot of pictures. Then they make a contact sheet & then those assembling the finished display pick & choose what they want. I know of no other shots of the Boys on a fire escape or Mike drinking milk ever. Guess it's just coincidence. And it's probably a coincidence that the majority of pictures in the booklet have a certain red hue about them. Did you know the sun rose very red on the morning that Brian had his ultimate religious experience? That info can be found in CHEETAH!. Anyway, it's probably a coincidence. Boston must have some red atmosphere or something.

Let's talk coincidence.

After 7 years of SMILE fandom & trying to figure it out, by accident, the idea of the whole thing being a Zen koan (which I knew & know nothing about) appeared & seemed to have possibilities. I, being a know nothing, have made lots of mistakes along the way but, like most science, it was a process of constant refinement. So here are some coincidences for you.

Brian's bio had a passage about Zen riddles which seemed encouraging. The passage read, "....hallucinations were comparable to Zen riddles, little mysteries full of meaning." I know the bio was flawed but maybe this passage had some accuracy in it. Or maybe it was just coincidence.

The original album title was Dumb Angel. That works Zen wise because the Buddah was silent the first time he passed on the enlightened state of mind. So maybe Brian (& VDP) was/were going to do the same. He was just going to present the album without explanation. He'd be the silent angel between heaven & earth or something like that. Ah, probably coincidence.

But then the album changed to SMILE which also works Zen wise because that is what the first person did after they got the message from the silent Buddah. But if that's the reason for the title then Brian's been playing dumb all along. Likely, it's coincidence. Supposedly, this smile was passed on by the 28 patriarchs of Zen.

And if you count inside the shop on the cover of SMILE you'll find 28 smiles. Obviously just coincidence.

And Brian's favorite comedy record HOW TO SPEAK HIP had a part where the beatnik talks about the Zen Buddhists & that they have these Zen koans & the goal is to "hang you up." Which reminds me of the "you can get hung up in words" quote Andrew cited. But this is just a coincidence for sure.

The book HEROES & VILLAINS describes Brian's friend Loren as a "what's the sound of one hand clapping" kind of guy. That "one hand clapping" thing is a famous Zen koan. Coincidence.

Rev. Bob Hanes mentioned THE JOYOUS COSMOLOGY which was written by Alan Watts. Watts wrote about children saying "da da" which somehow pointed to the ultimate religious experience. That was in THE WAY OF ZEN. Big deal.

Watts called Zen "the eternal now" and the water chant on SMILE has the "now now now now" part that seems to go on forever. But since that chant doesn't go all the way through the album it doesn't matter. No way that has anything to do with anything.

And Brian's quote that vegetables are an important ingrediant in spiritual enlightenment makes it seem like Brian is promoting it which is what Zen does. That's just a coincidence.

But Brian's article in BEAT was all about vegetables and enlightenment. Not important.

And when Van Dyke said Brian sought out "enlightened" people it's just coincidence that VDP used that term.

And if Brian was trying to do a Zen riddle thing he might have second thoughts about the appropriateness of such an endeavor. The famous FIRE episode seems to be a perfect match for this kind of thing. Stuff happens that you just can't explain sometimes. Case closed.

And all of Bill's stupid lyrical nonsense about finding Brian's spiritual experiences in SMILE are really childish.

The Zen thing is about passing along the enlightened state of mind to those able to pick-up on it. And if SMILE really did have this other level of meaning stuff in it then that model totally fits the Zen koan idea. But Bill is sometimes using Brian's "bio" when he's making all these connections so.....it's coincidence, and shame on Bill for being so naive.

People went to the mat to challenge the "fresh zen air" lyric contention. Brian said, "no Zen influence & no Spector influence" so that seals it because Brian would never play dumb.

INSIDE POP had some zen comments on the film reels or notes they made during the SMILE era visit. Obviously not important.

The zen comments in the Jules Siegel piece don't matter. Brian was into all kinds of stuff back then.

Anyway, I find that SMILE contains a lot of little mysteries full of meaning. Brian's bio has Loren as explaining to Brian that those are comparable to Zen riddles. So I compare SMiLE to a Zen riddle.

The bio also has Loren encouraging Brian to make music that would convey this kind of spirituality to listeners.

But that's the bio. No amount of coincidence will ever make any part of that book true.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The way a photo shoot typically works is that they take a lot of pictures. Then they make a contact sheet & then those assembling the finished display pick & choose what they want. I know of no other shots of the Boys on a fire escape or Mike drinking milk ever. Guess it's just coincidence. And it's probably a coincidence that the majority of pictures in the booklet have a certain red hue about them. Did you know the sun rose very red on the morning that Brian had his ultimate religious experience? That info can be found in CHEETAH!. Anyway, it's probably a coincidence. Boston must have some red atmosphere or something.

1 - the photo shoot was on the 29th or 30th of April, 1966. You're asking us to believe that on that date, a fortnight after he'd mastered Pet Sounds and before  Smile was even a notion, Brian had the whole Zen basis for Smile plotted out in his head and was already readying the visuals for it.

2 - If you count the montage on pages 8/9 as individual shots, there are 21 photos in the booklet. Of these, six have large areas of red, seven if you count the fire escape. Not a majority. Of those seven, the red in the fire escape is very likely red lead paint: nothing special about that, standard rust-proofing. The other shots with large areas of red were taken inside the theatre, backstage. It's the colour of the walls, augmented in one case by Alan's guitar. You could just as easily say, there's a lot of blue & white check in the booklet - because there is. Were I pressed to make a comment about the overall hue, I'd say it tended more towards dull russet brown than red. Your inference is that Brian chose the venue - and Alan's guitar - for their colour.

3 - I'm thinking that by this - "Did you know the sun rose very red on the morning that Brian had his ultimate religious experience? That info can be found in CHEETAH!" - you're not referencing Goodbye Surfing Hello God ! but another Siegel piece. That one passed me by - do you have a link or a copy ?

Supposedly, this smile was passed on by the 28 patriarchs of Zen.

And if you count inside the shop on the cover of SMILE you'll find 28 smiles. Obviously just coincidence.

Why count only the smiles inside the shop ? Why exclude the seven on the banner/awning ?

The zen comments in the Jules Siegel piece don't matter.

Comment. Singular. More of an aside. Here's the context: "I was really freaked out on astronomy when I was a kid. Baseball, too. I guess I went through a lot of phases. A lot of changes, too. But you can really get into things through the stars. And swimming. A lot of swimming. It's physical; really Zen, right? The whole spiritual thing is very physical. Swimming really does it sometimes."

The book HEROES & VILLAINS describes Brian's friend Loren as a "what's the sound of one hand clapping" kind of guy. That "one hand clapping" thing is a famous Zen koan.

Again, context: the "one hand clapping" quote was used to present Schwartz in a less than flattering light: "He was very skilful at asking people what 'the sound of one hand clapping' was. You'd think this guy was really out there. He could impress people with his talent, which was genuine, but wasted. Loren was something of a social manipulator."  Hardly a ringing endorsement, and from a former school friend.

Bill, I really want to see the Cosmology book [edit - belay that, it just dropped into my inbox: many thanks], and the Cheetah piece you cited about Brian's ultimate religious experience. I won't comment on something I've not seen, and I want to see them because, me being me, I want to comment.

[drbeachboy]

Has anyone just asked Van Dyke if his lyrics for Smile were about Zen and ego dying, etc., etc., etc.?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Has anyone just asked Van Dyke if his lyrics for Smile were about Zen and ego dying, etc., etc., etc.?

Too easy. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too easy. 

[Cam Mott]

1 - the photo shoot was on the 29th or 30th of April, 1966. You're asking us to believe that on that date, a fortnight after he'd mastered Pet Sounds and before  Smile was even a notion, Brian had the whole Zen basis for Smile plotted out in his head and was already readying the visuals for it.

Some of Guy Webster's photos for the SMiLE booklet were taken on April 29/30 1966? I had no idea, thought they were taken in November 1966.

[Andrew G. Doe]

1 - the photo shoot was on the 29th or 30th of April, 1966. You're asking us to believe that on that date, a fortnight after he'd mastered Pet Sounds and before  Smile was even a notion, Brian had the whole Zen basis for Smile plotted out in his head and was already readying the visuals for it.

Some of Guy Webster's photos for the SMiLE booklet were taken on April 29/30 1966? I had no idea, thought they were taken in November 1966.

To clarify - the shots of the band were taken in Boston in April. Brian's shots could have been 11/66, but given production time, probably earlier.

[Cam Mott]

1 - the photo shoot was on the 29th or 30th of April, 1966. You're asking us to believe that on that date, a fortnight after he'd mastered Pet Sounds and before  Smile was even a notion, Brian had the whole Zen basis for Smile plotted out in his head and was already readying the visuals for it.

Some of Guy Webster's photos for the SMiLE booklet were taken on April 29/30 1966? I had no idea, thought they were taken in November 1966.

To clarify - the shots of the band were taken in Boston in April. Brian's shots could have been 11/66, but given production time, probably earlier.

So they were trying out those checkered shirts clear back in the Spring of '66.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I would also like to chime in here, just so Mr. Tobelman doesn't feel like people are turning against him or anything. Like a couple of previous people have posted, I admire the fact that it's obvious that you love this music, and this is something that you really believe in (for years).  You've done your research, and it isn't like you're just coming up with this stuff to rile people up, or start arguments. I don't really buy what Bill's selling, but that doesn't mean that I'm right or he's wrong. Hell, maybe it really is all some secret puzzle. I enjoy Bill's interpretations, though. Very much so.

[Dunderhead]

I think zen SMiLE is probably the most authentic "explanation" of SMiLE.
I don't think every single "coincidence" is proof positive, but I do think that this mindset, this approach, this mode, is the one closest to where Brian was coming from.
Was it possible to be turned off by Loren? It appears yes. But it doesn't matter if he didn't live up to other people's standards, all that matters is how he influenced Brian, and Brian certainly seemed to look up to him, so to speak.
Brian knew about Koans beyond any doubt.
Various things Brian has said also echo very strongly ideas from specific psychedelic books, many of which were first published in 1966.

Brian had a vision.
Don't misinterpret what that means. Vision does not translate into a concrete, definite plan that's consciously understood. SMiLE had a lot of moving parts, and Brian sensed how they were supposed to fit together. It was a feeling that tied things together, an ineffable feeling that Brian probably only had for fractions of a second. I don't have any doubt that when Brian was on a trip he knew what SMiLE was supposed to be. It was the feeling of spirituality.

[hypehat]

I keep wanting to say stuff in this thread but I just get mad *slaps wrist* 

Brian had a vision.
Don't misinterpret what that means. Vision does not translate into a concrete, definite plan that's consciously understood. SMiLE had a lot of moving parts, and Brian sensed how they were supposed to fit together. It was a feeling that tied things together, an ineffable feeling that Brian probably only had for fractions of a second. I don't have any doubt that when Brian was on a trip he knew what SMiLE was supposed to be. It was the feeling of spirituality.

I don't mind this, though - You're absolutely spot-on, I think, when you say he only had it for fleeting moments. These gradually got away from him, sadly.

The spirituality question is really curious on Smile. Brian Wilson's 'Spirituality' seems to incorporate God, LSD and his trips, a 'musical' manifestation and stuff like swimming, and healthy eating. It's probably not for the best to just say the word when his own personal definition is so unique.

Bill, I am really not joking when I tell you to stop quoting that blasted biography as an authentic record of Brian's life, times, and his feelings.

I've got to get off this thread before I get mad again... 

[Bill Tobelman]

Hypehat, as my post states the Zen koan idea did not originated from Brian's biography. It originated in a warehouse in Branford, Connecticut where I was stacking boxes.

This idea was not mentioned anywhere or in anything related to the Beach Boys and/or Brian Wilson and SMILE. It didn't exist in SMILE world. And as I stated above the reasons Brian & Van Dyke have never brought it up is for reasons of artistic integrity (the Dumb Angel project, dumb meaning silent, required closed lips on the part of the creators). This is why even the closest of the close never knew what SMILE was really about. Asking Brian or Van Dyke won't do any good. They're not going to tell you. They maintain the integrity of the art in this way.

The only reference to a Zen koan (or riddle) is found on one page in Brian's "bio." That page is not part of the bio's SMILE section.

The Zen idea, or more properly, the art comparable to a Zen riddle idea, as you can see in my post above, has yielded numerous "coincidences."

That leaves me with a choice. As far as the original Zen idea I can either cite myself or a passage in Brian's bio.

Hypehat, which has more credibility, a fanatical fan or a flawed book by the creator of the art we're talking about?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Hypehat, which has more credibility, a fanatical fan or a flawed book by the creator of the art we're talking about?

Well duh !, that's a no-brainer - the fan, every time. 

[hypehat]

Hypehat, which has more credibility, a fanatical fan or a flawed book by the creator of the art we're talking about?

Well duh !, that's a no-brainer - the fan, every time. 

 

Bill, you've been quoting Brian's bio all the way through this thread, so don't give me that.

[Bill Tobelman]

Hypehat said,

Bill, you've been quoting Brian's bio all the way through this thread, so don't give me that.

I am being honest with you about the original conception of the Zen koan thing. It was thought up in a warehouse.

The bio is used by me primarily to access information regarding Brian's lsd trips. Uutside sources are used to try & verify the trip info in the bio (like Tom Nolan's article) as much as possible.

The "Surf's Up" section (Jon Stebbins verified the book's Dennis contention!) is one I cite. Beyond that there's not one bit of info from the SMILE section of the bio that you'll find me citing. My last bookmark in the bio is on page 145.

Brian verified the Elvis section of his bio when he retold it in the early days of his website.

There is some usable material in the bio.

A biology professor at the University of Vermont begins his freshman bio lecture by holding up the enormous book students will be using. The professor says "one half of this book is incorrect" then he continues "but we don't know which half." That's a science book. The professor is engaging the students in the refinement process.

Please don't accuse me of instant recklessness for bio references. I've just cited two instances where the bio was reliable. I did not save the text of Brian's website post & I did not tape record Mr. Stebbins at the time. Therefore I would have to refer to the bio to recall these verified events. That would not make them instantly unreliable.

[Bill Tobelman]

Andrew G. Doe raised some questions

1 - the photo shoot was on the 29th or 30th of April, 1966. You're asking us to believe that on that date, a fortnight after he'd mastered Pet Sounds and before  Smile was even a notion, Brian had the whole Zen basis for Smile plotted out in his head and was already readying the visuals for it.

2 - If you count the montage on pages 8/9 as individual shots, there are 21 photos in the booklet. Of these, six have large areas of red, seven if you count the fire escape. Not a majority. Of those seven, the red in the fire escape is very likely red lead paint: nothing special about that, standard rust-proofing. The other shots with large areas of red were taken inside the theatre, backstage. It's the colour of the walls, augmented in one case by Alan's guitar. You could just as easily say, there's a lot of blue & white check in the booklet - because there is. Were I pressed to make a comment about the overall hue, I'd say it tended more towards dull russet brown than red. Your inference is that Brian chose the venue - and Alan's guitar - for their colour.

Brian's trip was a real red, white, and blue experience (how American). The sun rose red, the clear light is the white (note that the red & the white mixed making the pink of BWPS' "in the pink"), and the water is blue. You can find the same sort of thing in the "GV" promo film.

3 - I'm thinking that by this - "Did you know the sun rose very red on the morning that Brian had his ultimate religious experience? That info can be found in CHEETAH!" - you're not referencing Goodbye Surfing Hello God ! but another Siegel piece. That one passed me by - do you have a link or a copy ?

The Surfing Saints piece.

Quote
Supposedly, this smile was passed on by the 28 patriarchs of Zen.

And if you count inside the shop on the cover of SMILE you'll find 28 smiles. Obviously just coincidence.

Why count only the smiles inside the shop ? Why exclude the seven on the banner/awning ?

Frank Holmes used perspective to draw the listener into the store. Enter the shop & it begins.

Quote
The zen comments in the Jules Siegel piece don't matter.

Comment. Singular. More of an aside. Here's the context: "I was really freaked out on astronomy when I was a kid. Baseball, too. I guess I went through a lot of phases. A lot of changes, too. But you can really get into things through the stars. And swimming. A lot of swimming. It's physical; really Zen, right? The whole spiritual thing is very physical. Swimming really does it sometimes."

I confess that I made a mistake even greater that my misuse of "comments." I incorrectly stated that Brian said vegetables were an important ingredient in spiritual enlightenment. This is wrong. Brian actually said that vegetables were important for health & that health was an important
ingredient in spiritual enlightenment.

So when Brian makes his aside to Siegel you may now see how the swimming/physical/Zen/spiritual enlightenment thing fits together.
Quote

The book HEROES & VILLAINS describes Brian's friend Loren as a "what's the sound of one hand clapping" kind of guy. That "one hand clapping" thing is a famous Zen koan.

Again, context: the "one hand clapping" quote was used to present Schwartz in a less than flattering light: "He was very skilful at asking people what 'the sound of one hand clapping' was. You'd think this guy was really out there. He could impress people with his talent, which was genuine, but wasted. Loren was something of a social manipulator."  Hardly a ringing endorsement, and from a former school friend.

Character assassination aside, this did not disprove one of the bio's contentions (that Loren was talked to Brian about Zen riddles).

[Bill Tobelman]

Sorry, missed one.

Andrew said:

1 - the photo shoot was on the 29th or 30th of April, 1966. You're asking us to believe that on that date, a fortnight after he'd mastered Pet Sounds and before  Smile was even a notion, Brian had the whole Zen basis for Smile plotted out in his head and was already readying the visuals for it.

Yes absolutely. By my timeline Brian had the project psyched out by April 27th. He was even in the studio trying out Heroes & Villains soon thereafter.

[Andrew G. Doe]

"Brian's trip was a real red, white, and blue experience (how American). The sun rose red, the clear light is the white (note that the red & the white mixed making the pink of BWPS' "in the pink")"

So the fact that "in the pink" is a common phrase meaning "I'm feeling pretty good" and rhymes with the previous two lines, "drop to drink/placid pool and sink" is entirely incidental.

Bill, some things do have a deeper, hidden and/or underlying significance (texts, pictures, movies), but this is grasping at straws flying past in the wind. You're extracting significance where none exists.

[Bill Tobelman]

Andrew G. Doe said:

Bill, some things do have a deeper, hidden and/or underlying significance (texts, pictures, movies), but this is grasping at straws flying past in the wind. You're extracting significance where none exists.

Andrew, this line is from the vegetables/enlightenment article Brian wrote for THE BEAT from 17-12-1966.

...Brian Gemini, filled with new found vegetable vigor, jumped to his feet and was red as a beet and then said with great emotion: "David Carrot--we'll soon be in the pink!"

Here's a new one that will drive you crazy. David Leaf's SMILE film has Loren talking about Brian's 1st trip. Brian is in the bedroom, head buried in pillow, crying about his parents. Later Brian emerges saying "enough of that crap" (I paraphrase).

Compare that with the printed BWPS lyric, "Sonny down snuff, I'm alright."

[hypehat]

To save AGD the bother,.....

So the fact that "in the pink" is a common phrase meaning "I'm feeling pretty good" is entirely incidental.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Here's a new one that will drive you crazy. David Leaf's SMILE film has Loren talking about Brian's 1st trip. Brian is in the bedroom, head buried in pillow, crying about his parents. Later Brian emerges saying "enough of that crap" (I paraphrase).

Compare that with the printed BWPS lyric, "Sonny down snuff, I'm alright."

I remember that scene very well: what Daro claimed Brian said (already we're talking secondhand source here) was actually "well that's enough of that !"

1 - I've compared it. Both sentences contain five words of English. That's the sole point of congruence. Tell me what I'm supposed to see. Enlighten me.

2 - Brian didn't write the "H&V" lyric.

3 - Assuming it was Brian's first trip (and seeing as you're taking what Schwartz/Daro says as both accurate and gospel, I will too), then it took place some time before April 6th 1965. So now Brian had Smile brewing in his head in early 1965 ? 

[bgas]

Hypehat, as my post states the Zen koan idea did not originated from Brian's biography. It originated in a warehouse in Branford, Connecticut where I was stacking boxes.

This idea was not mentioned anywhere or in anything related to the Beach Boys and/or Brian Wilson and SMILE. It didn't exist in SMILE world. And as I stated above the reasons Brian & Van Dyke have never brought it up is for reasons of artistic integrity (the Dumb Angel project, dumb meaning silent, required closed lips on the part of the creators). This is why even the closest of the close never knew what SMILE was really about. Asking Brian or Van Dyke won't do any good. They're not going to tell you. They maintain the integrity of the art in this way.

The only reference to a Zen koan (or riddle) is found on one page in Brian's "bio." That page is not part of the bio's SMILE section.

The Zen idea, or more properly, the art comparable to a Zen riddle idea, as you can see in my post above, has yielded numerous "coincidences."

That leaves me with a choice. As far as the original Zen idea I can either cite myself or a passage in Brian's bio.

Hypehat, which has more credibility, a fanatical fan or a flawed book by the creator of the art we're talking about?

While it's fun and sometimes interesting following the back and forth, between you and AGD, it certainly is convenient for you to state that BW/VDP will never back you up on your thought process.
You ascribe it to "artistic integrity". I'd ascribe it to delusions on the part of yourself; probably while you were tripping-out in a CT warehouse  

[Dunderhead]

I don't think it has anything to do with integrity.
Brian and Van Dyke are embarrassed of smile. At least to some degree. When I was talking about vegetables being about drugs, people were saying it couldn't have been about anything because Van Dyke said he wasn't proud of it. Comments like this from Brian and Van Dyke have to do with them feeling silly for their antics.

I don't really know what exactly is being argued against. Bill is trying to make an overall point how zen spirituality and psychedelic drugs influenced smile and AGD and others are focused on attacking any inconsistencies in the individual points.

The scope of Bill's argument isn't really being addressed. It's like criticizing the pyramids for a few chipped building blocks.
I think what Bill is all about here is pretty fundamental to SMiLE, and I just don't understand why people don't want SMiLE to be about drugs. Don't quite know why that is. SMiLE is a psychedelic album, it's psychedelic, it's about drugs and zen and new age spirituality. What's so hard to believe about that. The material isn't even near as direct as some of the batshit crazy psych albums that were released in 1967.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, NOW I get it. It's all a huge wind-up. Monster leg pull.

Nice one - you had me going. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

I don't really know what exactly is being argued against. Bill is trying to make an overall point how zen spirituality and psychedelic drugs influenced smile and AGD and others are focused on attacking any inconsistencies in the individual points.

The scope of Bill's argument isn't really being addressed. It's like criticizing the pyramids for a few chipped building blocks.

Try reading my posts again - yes, I'm citing specific examples, but only to illustrate how there's another possible explanation, and that's Bill's big problem - he can't see, or even admit, there might be a more prosaic explanation. He's invested so much time and effort in his Zen approach that to admit even the possibility that his premise might be groundless is impossible. He's coming at this with a closed mind, an idee fixee: that there is only one possible explanation, and that he's discovered it.  I'm willing to admit that there might be some truth in this and am willing to explore that possibility, up to a point - and that point is round about when someone claims that "the glass was raised" really means "the fireman opened the window".

But, as previously stated, now I realise it's all an elaborate - and successful - leg-pull, no need to exercise the grey matter any further. 

[Cam Mott]

My two cents, Bill has a well and thoroughly researched hypothesis, just as most of us do. And like most of our hypothesi, it ebbs and swells in acceptance. I don't happen to be convinced but respect Bill's work. Also, even though I'm sceptical, I will not be shocked if some day [maybe soon] it is revealed by Brian and VanDyke that back in the day it was very much intentioned as a zen koan.

Say hi to Margaret.