SMiLE Sessions box set!

[The Heartical Don]

I just added a little poll, just for kicks...   

I voted option (2), although I really don't know what happened 20 pages (or 20 years time) ago...

[drbeachboy]

I voted 1. There is definitely a connection between Brian, Smile, and drugs, though I don't think to the degree that some here have taken it to.

[The Shift]

Jimmy Webb's "Surf's Up" comments are a misinterpretation of an ego death song.

Cute.

I hate getting suckered back into this lyrics debate, but you guys do infuriate me.

If you want to force all these tired, bullmerda, outdated hippie ideas about ego death, LSD, the nature of human perception, tripping, 'coded references' to drugs, and all this other freshman nonsense onto Smile, then you are missing the friggin' point. I fail to see the attraction of reducing this multi-faceted, complex work, which encompasses so much historical, spiritual and cultural ground, into 'Turn off your mind, relax and float downstream'. I see it as an insult, frankly.

As I said before, it is much more likely Smile is Brians ode to Reddi-whip rather than LSD, if you want to play friggin' Substance Bingo with it.

Love it!

Voted for 2.  Gawd bless democracy!

[Andrew G. Doe]

I just added a little poll, just for kicks...   

Cool - kicks just keep getting so hard to find. 

[The Heartical Don]

I just added a little poll, just for kicks...   

Cool - kicks just keep getting so hard to find. 

Agree. 2011's going to be a shite year, without anything of any interest on the release schedules.

[buddhahat]

Well, I voted 1. I think it's inevitable that all the old familiar arguments will be regurgitated here. It's an interesting topic - an essential ingredient in the Smile mix, and I'm sure it will draw to its own natural conclusion given time, or another tidbit from Capitol.

That said, I've often thought it would make sense when these drugs discussions get going (as they seem to be so polarizing) to create a separate thread. In this instance: "What part did drugs play in Smile"? I don't see that it has to be in the sandbox though. Then those that wish to partake, so to speak, can do so and those don't, don't. Just a thought.

[buddhahat]

So what are we going to talk about, now the drugs debate has been momentarily distratcted?

Here's one for ya: What would the historical/cultural impact of Smile been, had it been released in 67, and would it've topped Pepper?

[Rocker]

Jimmy Webb's "Surf's Up" comments are a misinterpretation of an ego death song.

I find the whole term: 'ego death' horrific, to be fair. What does it mean? The annihilation of one's personality?

...and I always interpreted Jimmy Webb's interpretation as correct (which is to say: I read it here, now, for the very first time, honest. But I myself saw SU precisely this way. From 1975 onwards. Still do. There is a photo of Van Dyke Parks where he's sitting at a restaurant table, all by himself, clad in a tuxedo. There are some half empty glasses of champagne. No one else is there. It's in black and white. He looks grim, or rather: skeptical. To me, that is the essence of SU: the party's over, and let no one claim that he/she did not know beforehand that all parties have an ending.

Tried to find that picture. Is it this?

[The Heartical Don]

Jimmy Webb's "Surf's Up" comments are a misinterpretation of an ego death song.

I find the whole term: 'ego death' horrific, to be fair. What does it mean? The annihilation of one's personality?

...and I always interpreted Jimmy Webb's interpretation as correct (which is to say: I read it here, now, for the very first time, honest. But I myself saw SU precisely this way. From 1975 onwards. Still do. There is a photo of Van Dyke Parks where he's sitting at a restaurant table, all by himself, clad in a tuxedo. There are some half empty glasses of champagne. No one else is there. It's in black and white. He looks grim, or rather: skeptical. To me, that is the essence of SU: the party's over, and let no one claim that he/she did not know beforehand that all parties have an ending.

Tried to find that picture. Is it this?

Very good! Much appreciated.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Fits the description, but given that it was taken a good few decades later, allying it to the "Surf's Up" lyric is, at best, spurious.

[The Heartical Don]

Fits the description, but given that it was taken a good few decades later, allying it to the "Surf's Up" lyric is, at best, spurious.

I know, Andrew - I only tried to put into words that I find SU and this photo a great match. For me, SU was this photo, long before it actually was printed somewhere; and SU never was 'the death of the ego' for this listener. But in terms of sheer fact, you are right.

[Dunderhead]

Jimmy Webb's "Surf's Up" comments are a misinterpretation of an ego death song.

Cute.

I hate getting suckered back into this lyrics debate, but you guys do infuriate me.

If you want to force all these tired, bullmerda, outdated hippie ideas about ego death, LSD, the nature of human perception, tripping, 'coded references' to drugs, and all this other freshman nonsense onto Smile, then you are missing the friggin' point. I fail to see the attraction of reducing this multi-faceted, complex work, which encompasses so much historical, spiritual and cultural ground, into 'Turn off your mind, relax and float downstream'. I see it as an insult, frankly.

As I said before, it is much more likely Smile is Brians ode to Reddi-whip rather than LSD, if you want to play friggin' Substance Bingo with it.


Sorry to be so blunt and profane, but, well, yeah.

Didn't Brian drive Al around, refusing to let Al out of the car and telling him all about the LSD experience and why he needed to have one too? I imagine if you went back to 1966 and started telling Brian it was all bullshit he'd argue with you 'til kingdom come. Like it or not one of the central components of SMiLE was drugs.
This whole debate is essentially part of what Heroes and Villains was about. Square people vs. turned on people. Didn't Murry ransack Brian's apartment for weed at one point? Brian was having this conversation with his family and friends over and over again, they were scared of drugs, and Brian devoted a considerable amount of time to thinking about drugs, their possibilities, their role in the world, and how to communicate the subjective experience to others and convince people they could be a good thing.
You can call it sophomoric bs, but I don't think Brian thought that way. It's your prejudice, not his. It's hard to say exactly what amount of SMiLE was about drugs, I can't give you a percentage and I'll freely admit it certainly wasn't 100%, but like it or not, it was a major part of everything Brian was working on. Based on everything I've heard and read I'd say Brian was making SMiLE for people like you, to turn you onto this new thing. What you're doing is saying "psychedelic stuff is stupid, SMiLE isn't stupid; it's smart. Ergo SMiLE wasn't about psychedelic stuff" but for Brian psychedelic stuff was where it was at. It was cool, new, exciting, hip, full of potential. It was something the brightest minds of his generation were looking seriously at. To look back through 40 years of Government anti-drug campaigns is missing the point, Brian desperately wanted to be on this cutting edge, and that's the important thing.

Hell, I think both I Just Wasn't Made For These Times and Hang Onto Your Ego are about exactly that, and SMiLE was only a continuation of those themes.

[Cam Mott]

Brian has essentially said that one thing that killed SMiLE with him was it seemed like a good idea when high but didn't float his boat when sober. Approximately. And then Smiley happened.

[Mahalo]

I fail to see the attraction of reducing this multi-faceted, complex work, which encompasses so much historical, spiritual and cultural ground, into 'Turn off your mind, relax and float downstream'. I see it as an insult, frankly.
As I said before, it is much more likely Smile is Brians ode to Reddi-whip rather than LSD, if you want to play friggin' Substance Bingo with it.

It's hard to say exactly what amount of SMiLE was about drugs, I can't give you a percentage and I'll freely admit it certainly wasn't 100%, but like it or not, it was a major part of everything Brian was working on.

You're both right...Hypehat you are dead on that this is not "Turn off your mind, relax and yadayadayada..."...it is much more than that...

I think Fishmonk is right too though. I like your understanding of Heroe's and Villian's. (A song I miss very much since it has been about a month since I gave up SMiLE)

[Mahalo]

And then Smiley happened.

...I love that qoute...

[Bill Tobelman]

Here's why "Surf's Up" is an ego-death song (sorry about the ego death terminology but that's what they called it at the time).

1) Brian was interested in that topic. We all know this because of "Let Go Of Your Ego." We also know he was snubbed in his attempt to use the planned lyrics. Getting an ego-loss song through might take less obvious lyrics.

2) This whole ego negation thing was considered part of the spiritual LSD path in the mid sixties. Brian stated that his new musical direction for SMILE was spiritual & inspired by two LSD trips.

3) Brian's bio maintains that when they wrote "Surf's Up" they had decided to "hit it head on." Apparently this song was to get at the crux of the matter.

4) After an ego death experience one is reborn and after a spiritually enlightening experience one is said to be awakened. So at the end of "Surf's Up" in BWPS the reborn person is reborn yielding "a child" and at the start of the next movement the person is awakened ("morning stumble out of bed).

5) Taking the "Surf's Up" lyrics apart by word: one by one, two by two, and extracting all possible meanings from the multiple meanings yields an incredible about of death related images. If you're not looking for them you miss them. Such lyrics would enable the ego death theme to be missed by those not searching for it. Quite brilliant (tho some may term this level of brilliance "freshman").

6) Applying this same word by word scrutiny to all of the other SMILE songs do not yield anywhere near these same results. "Surf's Up" without question contains the most death related lyrics and meanings.

[Bill Tobelman]

Here you go folks, right out of Leary's The Psychedelic Experience. For fans of David Leaf's SMILE documentary you'll even find Brian's "Surf's Up" related reference to 'love' of possible significance!

That which is called ego-death is coming to you.
Remember:
This is now the hour of death and rebirth;
Take advantage of this temporary death to obtain the perfect state-
Enlightenment.
Concentrate on the unity of all living beings.
Hold onto the Clear Light.
Use it to attain understanding and love.
~Leary, Metzner, and Alpert, The Psychedelic Experience

For you movie buffs, this passage was read from in the movie I LOVE YOU ALICE B. TOKLAS by a hippie in a bathtub!

[pixletwin]

Is it me or is there something slightly evangelical about people who want to insist that this or that is a drug song.

[Bill Tobelman]

Leary's passages are taken from The Tibetan Book Of The Dead. Therefore they may not be drug related.

Also, all enlightenment references need not be drug related.

LSD was considered to be a shortcut, but this state of mind was considered accessible by other means such as meditation.

[Bill Tobelman]

On the other hand Brian did credit the drug LSD as being the foundation for his new spiritual musical direction.

In this case sticking to facts may appear as if someone is coming across as evangelical....but facts are facts, right AGD?

[pixletwin]

I should have put a " " at the end of my post. No offense intended.

[Bill Tobelman]

If there's an offense taken it's only in relation to logical cogent points being set aside in order to critique the presenter's fervor.

[Runaways]

If there's an offense taken it's only in relation to logical cogent points being set aside in order to critique the presenter's fervor.

 

[buddhahat]

I like your understanding of Heroe's and Villian's. (A song I miss very much since it has been about a month since I gave up SMiLE)

Right on Noname. I took that challenge and it's been a good few weeks for me too, although I cut myself some slack and only outlawed stuff cut between Pet Sounds and Smiley so I can still listen to Smiley Heroes or the 72 Surf's Up etc. Oh but BWPS is still out of bounds. The plus side is that I'm giving more attention to their other albums for once.

[Mr. Cohen]

Smile is about the quixotic quest for the perfect peanut butter & jelly sandwich. If you replace "she" in all of the songs with "the sandwich", it becomes...

"But the sandwich's still dancing in the night unafraid..."

"The sandwich belongs there, left with its liberty..."

"Once upon the SANDWICH isles..."

"Over and over,  the crow cries uncover the cornfield..." = The crow finds the sandwich.

"The children know the way..." to make the perfect sandwich.

It just amazes me how little you people think.