The Smiley Smile Message Board

I have a weird question, When I met Darian in NYC, I wanted him to sign my "Heroes and Villians" 45.

He Obviously didn't work on the ORIGINAL version, so he said he wouldn't feel right signing it, so he got Brian to sign it and then came back.

When he came back, I thanked him and asked him, even nicer, if he could sign it because in my opinion he was more important to SMiLE then even the Beach Boys were!

So he signed it, and I was really happy :D

But my question is, How important is Darian to SMiLE? I know Mr. Priore and Darian were friends, and collected SMiLE bootlegs,
and after seeing "Beautiful Dreamer" I believe that Darian Achieved what Brian couldn't, he PUT THE PIECES TOGETHER.

So, what do you think about Darian and SMiLE?

Yes, Darian was very important to BWPS and, because of that, his work may very well have a degree of influence on THE SMiLE SESSIONS box set. However, he did not have anything to do with that "Heroes & Villains" 45 single and I can understand him not wanting to sign it initially (how nice of him to ask Brian to sign it for you!).

To me, the most significant contribution Darian made to BWPS was the support he gave Brian, making him feel as comfortable and at ease as possible with bringing the project to fruition.  Irrespective of the fake harpsichord, I think that is something Darian should be highly praised for and something to be celebrated.

Right-as discussed here ad nauseam- Smile is an album that Brian and the BBs worked on off and on from the Summer of 66 to the spring of 67 and then abandoned.  BWPS is a project in which Smile songs were re-recorded or finished in 2004. So Darian had a hand in BWPS-but nothing to do with Smile and therefore nothing to do with the upcoming Smile Sessions CD

Darian strikes me as someone that could've been in Brian's scene back in 1966/1967. Just look at the airport photo, can't you imagine Darian there with his hair?

So I go easy on the guy for that reason. If it were Jeff Foskett Helps Brian Wilson Present Smile then I'd be furious.

Darian seems like one of the only guys in that band who would love to go really far out and leave the Jeff Foskett setlists in the past.

Mark L did suggest that the sequence for the 'close as we can get'  Smile Sessions disc will be informed at least in part by BWPS.

Darian is awesome. A fabulous guy in every way.

He also -- while critical to BWPS as a musical secretary -- deferred to Brian in every way possible. A band member, when asked about Darian's contributions to the sequencing, basically commented that it would have been a lot different and more unusual if Darian had done it.

Point is, the man has no ego for himself at all. He truly wants to serve Brian and music and the projects. And he also refuses -- most of the time -- to do the pure greatest hits tours with BW.

He really impressed me in the smile Doc, his work on BWPS was fantastic...

He also sounds really good on Darlin'

Darian to me is one of the most important people Brian has ever worked with, mainly because he was able to help Brian with Smile.

One night in 2006 the Mrs. and I, by very dumb luck, got backstage at Brian's concert...(this doesn't have to do directly with Darian, but...WE MET BRIAN THAT NIGHT AND HE SHOOK OUR HANDS!!!!)...and I saw Darian so I walked over to him and said something like, "I know you're a busy guy, I don't want to take up your time, so let me just say this: first of all, thank you for 'Shine On Me,'" -- and he interrupted wide-eyed to tell me that someone came up to him the night before to play him her "Shine On Me" ringtone -- and then I continued, "And thank you for helping Brian finish Smile." That last thing I said -- he very humbly kind of backed away from, as if he didn't want any credit for it, as if he wanted Brian to get all the kudos for it...I guess he just saw himself as a guy who just laid out for Brian the music that was there...from what I hear, VDP is the same way -- he also wants all the kudos to go to Brian...

Yes, it was very nice :D

To me, I wanted him to sign it because "Heroes and Villains" as it was intended, was partially played by him, and that's my favorite version.

Darian deserves a medal.  He is the only guy in the world that could have done what he did.  Perfect combination of aesthetic, integrity, musical knowledge, political skills and, as has been mentioned before, egolessness.  A hero in my opinion.

Wow, I know that would have made Darian cringe inside. No one knows better than him that statements like that are historically untrue. He was more important to BWPS...which is not Smile...his BWPS choices will inform the upcoming box, but not because Darian would necessarily want it that way, but because of political power and leverage that have nothing to do with him. He knows the difference between politics and aesthetics, and the difference between Brian's brothers and partners, and his latter day support system. I think a statement like this one actually disrespects Darian's great contributions because it so mangles reality.

I know this has been debated extensively, but I think it is acceptable opinion to consider BWPS to be the Smile.

I probably don't think of it that way...but if BWPS means Smile to someone then it is a valid point of you IMO

And to be honest, before I came to this board the notion that BWPS wasn't Smile didn't even cross my mind and it seems the OP is also not making a specific distinction between the two.

I agree BWPS is NOT SMiLE, However, it is part of the SMiLE Legacy, which is what I meant. :D

You have to make the distinction if you care to think about it at all. BWPS is for the most part a paint by numbers version of the unreleased Beach Boys Smile recordings. Yes it has completed passages and a nicely realized assembly of the ideas...but it is not an original work. The majority of it is a cover of, or a facsimile of the original elements from 66/67. That truth might be hard to swallow, but the more you delve into what Smile was/is, the more that becomes clear. That said I think BWPS proves that Smile could have been a compact masterpiece and not an indecipherable mess. For that proof alone i think it is important and a wonderful release.

I agree with you Jon but I just think there is also a partially credible argument that says otherwise.  :)

I think "facsimile" is a bit of a loaded term here -- suggesting that BWPS is in some way deficient on its own, which I think is assuredly not the case.

It is a cover version, but a cover version only in the sense that an orchestra and pianist might perform Rhapsody in Blue today, some 80 years after its writing and initial performance.

Yes, that interpretation does ask us to think of Smile Prime as more as a composition than recording, which is a distinction seldom made in the rock age. But I think we can consider and appreciate it as both things ..

Since SMiLE ('67) was never completed or released, while BWPS was, why is it so hard for people to comprehend BWPS as the final product with the SMiLE sessions serving as the blueprint (rather than BWPS being merely a "cover" of the SMiLE material)?

This.  BWPS is the only Smile.

BWPS isn't Smile because it a) exists, and b) is BWPS. It's not that hard to make peace with, if you let yourself. It cannot be what began some 35 (or whatever) years earlier. Obviously. It can only be what it is, which is what it was sold as. That's it. To try to make it the completed Smile is something nobody involved was quite willing to do, so why bother? Just let it be BWPS, a product which it is quite successful at being. And let the unreleased / semi-released / soon-to-be-released-again-or-so-we're-told Smile session material be what it is, which is a bunch of stuff that would probably have been a great album if it were a) an album released in its time, or at least b) an album released, period. All these things said, Darian is amazing, but I'd go with Adam's and Jon's statements on the topic.

Only until November 1st or thereabouts. I suppose TSS disc 1 then brings Smile full circle.

As do I, although the composition/recording distinction that Wirestone pointed out is interesting to think about.  I just don't think that, in this case, you can separate the two.  Brian's recording techniques and ideas in '66-'67 were just as important and revolutionary as the music itself - it's the marriage of the two that makes the project special.  So although as a composition Smile was indeed finished in 2004, the recording side doesn't come close to living up to what was achieved on the original sessions (Jon's word choice of "facsimile" is dead-on), and for that reason I just don't think you can consider BWPS to be the Smile.

We sure do know how to  :deadhorse around here don't we?

 ;D

There is no Smile album, only recordings of the music derivative from Smile sessions.

A depressing perspective: Smile is really not that great, it was just an album... that didn't make it. Some dudes figured some money could be made on it.

We treat it like it's the Quran or something.

Interesting.  How do you think Brian and the other surviving Beach Boys would react if you told them that?  Or the people who are working on the Smile Sessions release?

Actually, I guess you must believe that the Smile Sessions box is going to be comprised exclusively of sessions from BWPS, since the original sessions are, according to you, non-Smile.

But do you think every inch of the 66/67 Smile was planned and perfected.? No. Much of what we hear in those orig. recordings are happy mistakes. Things that meshed and worked only by experimentation and/or accident. Brian knew to leave these magic moments alone when they appeared out of nowhere, in fact he mined them. He fished for them. Is it a coincidence that countless numbers of these Smile session fingerprints show up in BWPS??? No. Because BWPS is a calculated facsimile of what exists on tape from the Beach Boys sessions. They mimicked what was there as best they could. I guess because it would not have worked legally or politically to use the orig. tapes...they managed to make a usable modern day copy of a good majority of the components. They assembled them in a good way, sometimes using the orig. as their blueprint and sometimes shuffling the deck to make something work. The greatness in what they did is not that they created THE Smile, or finished THE Smile...but that they proved Smile was something that when put in a presentable form was AWESOME. BWPS is proof that Smile had the potential to be two sides of surprisingly accessible avantgardness. New word.

I like your posts, Jon. You can always be trusted to leave a nice fat paragraph of brain matter on the page.

Darian did a terrific job, better than anyone else. I also believe that Brian's band is the most talented band in the business period. That said, there are points to both arguments. Yes, they were replicating/duplicating the sound the best they could, but I've heard Mark Linnett say Brian wwas involved quite a bit in getting the right sound during the sessions, you can see a bit of that in the studio footage which, while edited to hell and perhaps mimed a bit, shows him so excited he could barely contain it. So there's no use arguing that Brian was brain-dead during the BWPS sessions and the band were note-for-note replacing the original sessions, there's subtle differences if you look for them and Brian was supervising everything.

The REAL benefit of BWPS is in two factors, one of which gets stated a lot first 1) it presents BWPS in a complete form and finally puts to rest the myth that Smile was disconnected chaos, and a bunch of fragments that made no sense. Put all together, you can hear Brian's compositional and arranging skills in full-force, and you can see that his vision in '67 was complete and expert. 2) and most important for me, you hear Brian fully invested in the vocals, doing his first album in over 30 years where he sings BEAUTIFULLY from start to finish and, when thinking about it, shows Brian fully abandoning the "we junked it, it made no sense, it's not appropriate" attitude. He's really caring about this material. And in the personal realm, it lead to him conquering his demon's, writing over a dozen brand new songs and constructing an album from start to finish as many of us thought he never would, and lead to him investing in a set of Gershwin material and singing his best since the 60s on that. For those two factors alone, I'll always love the record.

TdHabib sums up my thoughts nicely....that, and as far as I'm concerned, BWPS >>IS<< Smile. Why? Because that's what was finished by Brian (note: you need a mess of help to stand alone), produced by Brian, and officially named Smile by Brian.

E.C.: How close is SMiLE 2004 to what you wanted SMiLE 1967 to be?

Brian Wilson: Much different, much different. Much more progressive, much happier, much more uplifting.

http://www.earcandymag.com/brianwilson-2004.htm

Brian: 66-67 Smile and BWPS are "much different."

Various posters on this board: No, no.  Brian's wrong.  BWPS IS Smile.

Bubba Ho-Tep, it's nice to see your name around here again. I'll always remember you as the only person here who likes Disco Volante, or even knows it and mentions it, for that matter. I think you once said something like it was the Pet Sounds of the 90s and i totally agree, though i think 0.0002 people would see that.

BWPS is Pieces of SMiLE Re-Created for Release.

SMiLE, is an unreleased concept album from 66/67.

That's how I feel.

add it to wikipedia.

I'm guessing you agree. :P

BWPS is pieces of SMiLE re-created for live performance, then that performance was replicated in the studio then released.

SMiLE, is an unreleased concept album from 66/67.

SMiLE is incredible, and just the fact that pretty much 2 men came up with it is incredible!

Brian Wilson Presents Smile - not Brian Wilson Presents an Interpretation Of The Smile Project from 1967. If Brian says it's Smile that's good enough for me.

BWPS is a Smile, but not the Smile, and TSS will be just the same (and not just because there have been strong indications that CD 1 will resemble BWPS). Smile was, and is, the sculptors block: the raw material, which different people will interpret and utilise differently.

There is no definitive Smile because there never can be. That possibility died in 1967.

Look at it from this point of view: What if Beethoven had written an incredible symphony when he just twenty-three (We'll call it "symphony smile") but shelved it. Then, when he was forty some years old some friends of his convinced him it was brilliant music and deserved to be finished. He writes a few more notes, puts the songs in order....would it not be the true "symphony smile"? It was finished by the same composer, he just used different musicians than he would have when he was twenty-three.

Just saying this: put in a historical context, people in the far future will most likely regard Brian Wilson's SMiLE as THE SMiLE...for, though the musicians are different, the composer is still the same.

...But in Smile's case, the songs were not only written, but also recorded. The studios, instruments, players and singers are a part of what the original Smile is. Besides, BWPS can be described as rerecordings of what was previously recorded, and thus known. Who are we to say that Brian wouldn't have included pieces unknown to us (and to him!), had he been able to finish Smile in 1967?

It could also be argued that 1966 Brian is not entirely the same person as 2004 Brian, for obvious reasons.

I see your point, but I'm not sure I agree. Brian Wilson was the creator of SMiLE, if he would declare something (like the first disc of the upcoming box/double CD, which I assume will be the album modelled after BWPS) to be the definitive SMiLE, than who would we all be to disagree? It's his project, it's up to him to declare it's official status.

And where do you draw the line between a belated definitive SMiLE, and an interpretation of SMiLE? How long after it was originally abandoned did the possibility of a definitive SMiLE die? The day after? A week, a month, a year, a decade later?

One could argue that Beethoven had a particular set of musicians in mind when he created some of his work...But we use different musicians and conductors for each time his music is played live....so is any of his work truly 'definitve'?

And human minds aree constantly changing - Brian Wilson at age 23 and 1 month was not the same a Brian Wilson age 23 and 2 months. So with that logic one could say that had SMiLE been release in '66 it would not have been the definitive SMiLE. It would have been a project molded and evolved over a very short period of time.

All projects evolve - all projects are subjected to outside forces, inside forces...some projects are released soon after conception - others are shelved and picked up again at a later date. Honestly, who are we to say what work is the 'true' work? Isn't that the artists job to say? And if we doubt the artist, does not that just insult his work?

But that's the difference. Smile had a particular set of musicians on tape, and people know the music that's on these tapes. People thus associate this music with the name of Smile. Smile is what happened in 1966/1967. In a way, the fact that it wasn't officially released then doesn't matter, because what matters is the fact that people know the songs.

What's your point? So Surfin' Safari is not the definitive Surfin' Safari because it would have been different had it been recorded later? I don't really get it.

In my opinion, had Smile been released in 1967, it would have been the definitive Smile, because the recordings would have taken place at the same time Brian's ideas came to his mind, so it would have been as close as possible to his original vision. Brian would probably have moved on. Does Brian think "oh, I wish I could have changed that bit on Surfin' Safari"? Maybe. But Surfin' Safari was released in 1962 and it's the definitive version for everybody.

Surfin' Safari is THE definitive Surfin Safari. Brian Wilson's SMiLE is THE definitive SMiLE. Why? Because Brian said that was the finished work....the artist and composer said that his Teenage Symphony to God was finally finished/completed in 2004.

You are claiming it is not definitive because the final album was not released close enough to the date of the project's genesis and also because the original musicians were not used....but I really don't see how this matters. It's like saying that, hypotheticaly, Da Vinci's Mona Lisa is not definitive because he started it, shelved it, and came back to it with different paints on his palette at a later date.

It doesn't matter what colors Brian used on his palette as long as he is happy with those colors.

Shelter worded this point FAR better than I did:

I draw the line round about summer 1967: if Brian had wanted to put Smile out, we'd not have Smiley Smile. He washed his hands of it, the occasional riff excepted. The next time he was even vaguely OK with the idea was late 1992.

Darian was the fanboy nerd who became an insider. How many of us dream of that!?

His knowledge of the bootlegs was essential for the sessions of organising the pieces with Brian and Van Dyke.

I don't find it too difficult to accept SMiLE as a series of sessions that did not coalesce into an finished album in '66/'67, that had a selection of those sessions reworked to perform as a live piece followed by a re-recording of those original sessions to construct an album entitled BWPS and as the name of the box set that collects those original sessions.

Truly, the most unique thing about SMiLE is it is all these things...and very few abandoned projects could be mined for this much entertainment, fan discussion and critical praise. The SMiLE that didn't happen was a finished and released album in 1967; the SMiLE that has happened and is happening is something pretty extraordinary in the world of pop music (and it's the only SMiLE we know).

years ago, the Correct Perspective, in Beach Boys Australia fanzine, wrote that Brian mixed the tapes in late may1967. What do you think of that Andrew?
the Correct Perspective prooved many times to open our eyes on true facts (Brian years before the BBs, Remember the Zoo....).

I think someone's perspective was a tad skewed.  ;D

You have a problem with analogies. The correct one would be: Da Vinci carefully chose the canvas, the paints and the brushes, and started painting. He almost reached completion but never really finished it. People saw parts of this unfinished painting, but not in its entirety, as Da Vinci didn't finish it and wasn't even really sure of how to complete it - he would have needed more time. After abandoning his work-in-progress, Da Vinci became addicted to drugs and evolved into quite a different person.

Then, 30 years later, a friend who loved the parts he had seen tells him it'd be nice to remake those parts and stick them together, in order to be able to show a "finished product". They pick a canvas, some paints, some brushes, that are all different from the original ones, partly because the old brushes aren't made anymore, partly because the new brushes wouldn't work on an old canvas, partly because these new paints are just slightly inferior but much more convenient. Then, they reproduce some parts that people have seen, and only those, and they stick them together. The parts that were missing are nowhere to be seen, because they haven't been able to reproduce them, as they had either been lost or never painted in the first place.

In the end, it's a good painting, but it's not what it would have been had Da Vinci finished it earlier, because he and his friend only took pieces that were available.

Which is what I was saying earlier. Let me quote myself -

BWPS is a mix-and-match of what was available in the vaults. Maybe some sections have been recorded and were supposed to be used on the final version, but have disappeared. Maybe some other sections were still in Brian's mind when the project was shelved.



IN PICTURES, just to be clear:

1) This is the full original painting, with the parts that people had been able to see. The blanks are parts that were either lost or that simply had not been completed. Basically, it's Smile, 1966/1967.
(http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/2324/mona1r.jpg)



2) This is the full recreation. As you can see, some parts that people knew have been ditched, but only parts that were known have been used again. The colors are slightly different, the shapes are very close but no cigar, a large part of what the original painting would have been is gone, but it's still identifiable as "Mona Lisa", it's still good, and more importantly, it's presented as a "finished painting". This is BWPS. Not Smile.
(http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/2705/mona2t.jpg)

Darian is wayyyy beyond fanboy/nerd. He's too good to be reduced to that.

I'm totally fine with BWPS--it flows. Yes, it takes chunks that, when viewed on their own in unedited form, a lot of people didn't get, and puts them in a framework that absolutely works. Maybe not absolutely perfect, maybe not with The Elements in 1-2-3-4 order as some demanding fanboys insist it must be, but God, close enough to perfect for me. This project could have gone way wrong--imagine if it had been completed in, say, the late 70s, when just about every old rock star got everything wrong, wrong, wrong. I don't recall any fanboy coming up with that perfect link of 'Wonderful' into 'Look/Song for Children'. There have been some interesting fan edits, yes (I'm talkin' 'bout you, DJ Mic Luv, and a couple others) but nothing as good as BWPS.

SMiLE is not a work set in stone. Was Tommy? Was Dark Side of the Moon? Was Sgt. Pepper, even? Village Green, with 2 different track lineups? No. These evolved and changed and had iterations that shifted our perceptions of them. Some better, some worse, but generally, all stimulating. SMiLE is another one--the best of them, at least in my own heart.

SMiLE exists, and will continue to exist, and will likely continue to evolve even after the box set, because of the love people have for it. And that love happened because, quite simply, SMiLE is great enough to merit it. (I don't see any obsessive BB bulletin boards based around 'Adult Child'.)

SMiLE is an album that the Brian hath made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.

I think the notion that BWPS is Smile because Brian says it is... might be a precarious place to make your stand. Do you think its a sure thing once the Smile sessions box is out and being promoted that Brian is going to be saying that BWPS is Smile and the box is not? I would not make that bet. Maybe if his wife tells him to, but eventually there will be an interview away from the control and he'll say what's on his mind at that moment and it could be ANYTHING. How about I burned the Smile tapes. Or Smile will never come out because its not good music. Relying on the "because Brian said" criteria is very shaky ground to base any argument on.

Yes: to the best of my knowledge, The Floyd & The Beatles never revised those two albums after release. As for Tommy, granted there was the live version, and the movie, but the album is canonical.

Not an original work? Ask the composer Brian Wilson if he thinks so.

It's not as well produced as the 1966/67 recording attempt, but it is an original work.


With you there.


The only finished one. Unless they did find a tape with all the songs completed...


Although this wasn't directed at me, I'd like to say that to me the old sessions aren't "non-SMiLE", they're sessions for SMiLE that didn't get finished. In 2004 it was started from scratch, with sonically mostly inferior result, but the composition on BWPS is SMiLE.


No. They're both SMiLE. The box consists of great sounding unfinished recordings, BWPS is a finished recording that doesn't sound as good, but it's complete, it is a whole.

I think you are going to find a Brian approved disc in the box that is not unfinished...so what then?

Remind me again, exactly how much of BWPS was written in 2003 ?  ::)

Yes, but with BWPS, SMiLE did not get "revised", it got "done".



As not having listened to it and not having read how Brian sees it - I don't now! I'll tell you when I have.  :)

Seems like we have different definitions of the term "original work". BWPS is Brian's original work, no matter when or how he wrote it.

"Good Vibrations" - cover of previously released song
"Heroes & Villains" - cover of previously released song
"Cabin Essence" - cover of previously released song
"Wonderful" - cover of previously released song
"Wind Chimes" - cover of previously released song
"Surf's Up" - cover of previously released song
"Rock Plymouth Roll" - cover of previously released song with period lyric
"Vegetables" - cover of previously released song
"Prayer" - cover of previously released song
"Fire" - cover of (partly)previously released song
"Workshop" - cover of previously released song
"Barnyard" - cover of previously released song
"I'm In Great Shape" - cover of previously released song

That's 13 out of the 21 BWPS titles for which the only original thing is the recording.

Well...I did in a version I put together in late '99 because it seemed like a good way to get out of "Wonderful" which doesn't have a very satisfying ending. I also transitioned "Our Prayer" into "Heroes & Villains" by using "Gee" and the same "How I love my girl" segment as appears on BWPS. A musician friend of mine insists to this day that he passed along a copy of my SMiLE edit to Darian sometime in 2001. Did my sequencing have any influence on BWPS? Who knows. As far as I'm concerned, I'm pleased that a couple of my aesthetic choices aligned with what Brian and Darian decided to settle upon...and, as onkster states, they went way beyond what any mere fan had done or could do.

As I said a few posts ago, it's all SMiLE...and it's nice to have so much of it (and hopefully more real soon).

Yes, but also no. Smile is also a group of songs that exist whenever they're performed. It is a composed group of songs and arrangements. Even at the time, Brian recorded different interpretations of the songs, looking for just the right take. (I mean, how many "Wonderful"s are there? Yet they are all "Wonderful," despite being different recordings.)

So he finally recorded an interpretation that he liked. It was just decades after the fact.

Can they really be described as merely 'covers of previously released songs'?  :-\

Does this mean Help Me Rhonda is a mere 'cover' of the previously released Help Me Ronda and thus not the definitive version ???

No matter how many of these songs were previously recorded and/or released. They're all written by Brian Wilson (many of them with lyrics by VDP). They are assembled (brought in a running order) and in some cases completed by Brian Wilson (some of them again completed with lyrics by VDP). They are recorded by Brian Wilson. So: BWPS is an original work by Brian Wilson.

It's like saying that "Faust" was not an original work by Goethe, just because it consisted of assembled and rewritten fragments he wrote 38 years ago, and had in fact been released in their fragmentary form.

Another example you might relate better to: Is the single record version of "Help Me, Rhonda" not an original work by Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys because it had already been released with slightly different lyrics and spelling? Was "Surfer Girl" not an original work because they had recorded it earlier? Were those "just" "cover versions"?

Is Pet Sounds an original work even if it doesn't have "Hang On To Your Ego" and a version of "Caroline, No" not in the original speed on it?

And FWIW, two of those "previously released songs" were only released in demo form, and it wasn't even a demo to be used as a recording guide..."Workshop" wasn't released before, either -- just the tool overdubs.

You beat me to it.  :) I should type faster.

Definitive doesn't always have to mean first. Look at I Can Hear Music as an example. Personally, in some ways I see BWPS in the same eye as I see Do It Again being re-recorded back in July. BWPS is a "cover" for a new presentation of the work.

No - because "R(h)onda" II was recorded less than 50 days after the first version by someone who was, essentially, exactly the same person and who's decision it was to revise it. Not over 35 years later by someone who was, to all intents and purposes, a completely different person and had to be persuaded that this was a good idea.

OK... Ten and  a half songs out of 21.  :)

Wasn't The Correct Perspective the one who made up the Remember the Zoo hoax?

Amongst others.  :-D

Honestly, i'd say was LIFEHOUSE set in stone, because in my opinion Lifehouse is SMiLE's "Child"

I don't follow your reasoning/rationale/argument. (Those are the three words my dictionary offers for the German expression "Argumentation", I don't know which one is the right translation.)

Also, let's all admit that the elephant in the room here is Brian's mental illness. One of the reason the 66-67 stuff is revered is simply because Brian was absolutely in control of it -- perhaps the last time in his career we know for sure that to be the case. A lot of folks simply feel that Brian is not the same man today as he was then and therefore doesn't have the same creative authority to decide how his work is presented. Some feel (as stated in some recent Disney album threads) that he should not perform these days, period.

My personal feelings aside, this significantly complicates all arguments on this subject. If Brian was still as together as Neil Young, let's say, or Van Morrison or McCartney, the debate would be entirely different.

OK, in simple English:

In early 1965, Brian Wilson (aged 22, one nervous breakdown behind him, light pot smoker and newly married) recorded a song called "Help Me Ronda". Then, 48 days later, (still aged 22, one nervous breakdown behind him, light pot smoker and newly married), he re-recorded it, because he felt he could improve on it.

In late 1966/early 1967, Brian Wilson (aged 24, one nervous breakdown behind him, dedicated pothead and speed freak, veteran of at least three acid trips and married two years) recorded a series of songs and song fragments intended for an album called Smile. For a whole mess of reasons, he decided to abandon the project. Then, roughly 13,150 days later (aged 60, several breakdowns behind him as well as decades of sustained and considerable substance abuse, binge drinking, exploitation, chemical control, divorced and remarried with two newly adopted children) he was told that to revise Smile was the next logical step in his solo career.

The difference between the BDW that recorded two versions of "R(h)onda" within 50 days in 1965 and the BDW that was cajoled into revisiting Smile some 36 years after he'd turned his back on it is why the former isn't a cover, and the latter is. It's called creative continuity and context.

I just think describing as a 'cover' is underselling it slightly given that it was still recorded by/with the participation of the original creator (albeit 37 years later).  Can you really 'cover' your own material?

I think of it as a re-recording personally.  But these are just labels really and quite unimportant.

I'd say the same about the (2006?) re-recording of God Only Knows simply because it was fronted by its original creator.

Honestly, When Talking about the differences in SMiLE and BWPS, I'd say it has nothing to do with the band.

I think back in 66/67, Brian should have paid the boys as Sesson-Musicians instead of as bandmates, I mean,
Pet Sounds and SMiLE are both essentially Brian Wilson Albums, Correct?
Pink Floyd did this with their keyboard player... why didn't Brian?

I think Brian thinks it's SMiLE

I think he thinks he finished it

What does he know though eh?

We can all join that big long line of people who have enjoyed telling Brian he's wrong.

After all, the man's a brain fried idiot....

Sorry, but this IS true. (not the idiot part, lol)

You think, but do you really know?  BWPS is Brian's live presentation of Smile recreated in the sudio. TSS is the original Beach Boys recordings. They are both Smile music, no doubt about that. ;)

Was Darian responsible for the pirate chant  :p

OH GOD I HOPE NOT.

Got VDP written all over it !

I forget the actual quotes, but he made quite a big deal about the fact he's finished it, and it was in the liner notes with a picture of him snogging his dog.

My own personal view is that had he finished it in '67 it would have been a whole different beast, but if he and VDP say this is the finished SMiLE, then I accept it as that.

I think a lot of the people who do not accept it as SMiLE are the people who had their noses put out of joint because Brian dared to finish it and take away their secret little special thing.

OMG Get Over Yourselves. Lol, innit. Deal With It and all those other brainless sayings.

He finished it.

Band has nothing to do with it? BWPS hardly sounds anything like the original Wrecking Crew sessions. Just compare 2004's Child with the fragments of old. It's a totally different sound. Someone pointed out recently that the Wrecking Crew were all trained jazz musicians for the most part so they brought an entirely different feel to what they played than Brian's band for BWPS. The original sessions benefit from spontaneity - they were playing very new music. BWPS is so far from a spontaneous capture of the original spirit. It's almost dead, neutered, emasculated.

My biggest gripe with it is just the sound of the thing. It's harsh from the very second it begins with Our Prayer beginning with a Pro Tools glitch. The album sounds too BIG in the stereo field to me, too overwhelming to listen to often. Compare the original Good Vibrations with the remake. That's BWPS as a whole!

Not correct. Take Beautiful Dreamer out of your DVD player and do some additional research.

Oh, sorry about the "Misunderstanding"
I mean writing wise, not sound-wise.

On that note, I would describe the "Crew's" sound as more "Quirky" and The BW Band as more Clean and 21st Century.

BTW: I have been studying SMiLE for 3 Years, ask me anything non-opinionated and consider it answered :)

Yeah, but if you are talking writing-wise, then shoot, might as well consider anything the Beach Boys did from Surfin' Safari through Wild Honey as Brian Wilson albums. I get it, Brian's a genius, the rest are no talent schmucks. ;)

Brainless indeed.

A lot of the back-and-forth is over terminology.  Obviously Brian (with considerable help) "finished" A version of Smile.  But again, Brian himself said that his 2004 version of Smile was "much different, much different" than what he wanted Smile to be in 1966-67.  I notice that none of you people who want to disregard the original sessions even acknowledge that quote.

I think that "the people who do not accept [BWPS] as SMiLE" (your words) recognize that the 2004 version is much different, is not the original vision, and therefore is not the "finished" version of the 1966-67 Smle.  They're two separate things.  One with the Beach Boys, one solo.  One with a young, motivated, completely-in-control Brian, one with a Brian who lets others take control.  One that is often dark, confusing, even sinister.  One that is, in Brian's words, "much happier, much more uplifting."

People's tastes vary, so some like one, and some the other (many like both).  But to say that the latter "IS" Smile, and that, by implication, the earlier sessions are NOT, is ludicrous.

I blame the fake harpischord and tack piano....

 ;D

And the tame distorted bass on Child [and lacking in Cabinessence].

I didn't say, it, Brian said it was SMiLE

This is the point I am making

Please take the time to read my posts properly and do not insinuate I am brainless.

Where in my post did I say that the original sessions are not SMiLE?

Can you read?

Brainless indeed.

Lets stop.

Please, I do not want to get into a row with anyone. I fully respect peoples opinions, and enjoy healthy debate, but don't make it personal Jeff!

As I said, the '67 SMiLE would have been a far different animal, I hugely prefer the original sessions, but if Brian says this is SMiLE, then I accept it as so. And good for him to have finished it and exorcised this huge personal demon. I just find it very demeaning to him to have this achievement poo pooed by a bunch of armchair obsessives.  (And I am guilty of this at times)

How many of you would stand face to face with Brian and tell him this is not SMiLE?

Going back to Darian my friends, It's all about his hair that always makes me Smile  ;D :lol

Check out the bolded text above--all your words.  If you didn't want to make it "personal," you could have avoided that stuff.

Anyway, I don't know what quote of Brian's you are even referring to, but it looks like you are misconstruing him and/or giving far, far too much weight to something that he may have been asked to say for marketing purposes.

Me... and I'm guessing he'd probably shrug and say "yeah, it's not". Because that's Brian.

What bolded out text?

I just expressed an opinion and got called brainless for it.

But, as I said, I don't really want a row, and now the mighty AGD has come out against me I'd better watch my back. I'd hate to become the next Phil Cohen!

I'm not really bothered anyway. I love SMiLE whatever incarnation it's in. I've loved it for 23 years. I was overjoyed to discover the first few tracks, and was overjoyed to get my first boot in 1990. I  was tremendously overjoyed to be at the first two SMiLE concerts in '04, and then having it on CD seemed like the icing on the cake, despite it's shortcomings. I'm very happy for Brian that he finished it, and I stand by what I say that if he says it's SMiLE then it's SMiLE. Better add an IMO there.

But then the box was announced, and I was overly-overjoyed. No complaints here!

Sorry if this offends you Jeff, Peace  :)

Ah, I see the bolded out text now. You mean this

I think a lot of the people who do not accept it as SMiLE are the people who had their noses put out of joint because Brian dared to finish it and take away their secret little special thing.

I can see why that might hit a nerve, but I think there's a ring of truth there. SMiLE was very special as an unreleased album. It's lovely to have a thing, a wonderful thing that only you know about. Then to have it finished, and released, and suddenly theres all these people saying how wonderful SMiLE is. These bloody Brianistas jumoing on the bandwagon. Your bandwagon.

I've heard these sentiments expressed a lot of times in relation to BWPS.

If my comments made you angry the maybe you need to look at why.

And if you need to call me brainless again, then I'll accept that, if it means you are working through this minefield of confused feelings you have.

I'm teasing, Peace Jeff, night night ;)

To get reflexively ontological about it:

SMiLE is SMiLE.

1966/67 SMiLE is 1966/67 SMiLE.

BWPS is BWPS.

If you think it's butter, but it's snot, it's Chiffon.

I yam what I yam; it is what it is.


But I have seen too many outta-joint noses from people who think SMiLE is what *they* wanted it be. Therein lies the trouble.

More specifically, "SMiLE" is a typographical effect created in the '60s. The name of the album is "Smile."

"The 2004 SMiLE isn't the real SMiLE."
"Whaddya mean?"
"Well, it's like liking a Phil Spector record..."

Alright guys, I understand, BWPS is NOT SMiLE how it was intended, HOWEVER, BWPS COMPLETES SMiLE's LEGACY
by saying, here's the material presented live. Theirfore, Darian is part of SMiLE.

Also, you guys do know Darian had an article in "LLVS" right? Pretty Cool huh? :P

:lol :lol :lol

Yeah, well Pom Pom Playgirl is filler!!!  How do you like them apples?

Just kidding.  You actually have a good point on that one.

I'd stand face to face with Brian and encourage him back on the cocaine & birthday cake diet and tell the old feller to write more lusty raunchy songs about teenage cuties.

I vaguely remember getting very cross with someone for suggesting that. Was it you Jeff? If so I apologise sincerely ;D

What can I say, I am a twisted mass of contradictions.

What, you mean like......Paedophile City

The SMiLE  from 1966-67 has a spiritual and mystical vibe to it that I don't get from BWPS. Also i think that SMiLE also works better as an album in my opinion with the darker tone the SMiLE sessions have compared to BWPS. The vocal blend of the BB's and the use of the wrecking crew is so much better than what Brian's band could do either singing or musically.  The original album, if finished, would have totally been the greatest album of the 1960s. Still it was never finished, but I still think it is the apex of their careers and Brian's genius.

It was ... you had just come back from the pub.

And you've been biding your time, waiting for me to slip up, and then........pounce!

Yep, gets itchy back there in the bushes.  Glad I finally made it out.

Yes. I've been itchy in the bushes a few times. Calamine lotion's good

Not true. Those who say this are blinded by nostalgia and not actually listening to the record. Different, yes. Preferred by some, yes. "So much better" -- poppycock.


Probably not.

Well the Beach Boys on the whole seemed more like ephebophiles, I think you or someone else posted this recently as well. It gets a bit murky in places - how young are the girls in a lot of their songs? I mean, what age do people think of while listening? Most of us are "grown men" listening to these things, and we wonder why a lot of women find our Beach Boys obsession weird? Oh great, my boyfriend's favorite song is All Dressed Up For School. Didn't Dennis marry Mike Love's underage daughter? I forget the details.

Anyone think Marilyn got insecure with Brian? Here he is singing songs about gorgeous California Girls --- be honest, does anyone picture a Marilyn Wilson hearing about the California Girls? I imagine beach bikini beauties with tiger like toned bodies in the sun being cool. Not Marilyn at the deli ordering pickles!

Considering how Pet Sounds is usually #2 to Sgt. Pepper's #1...

Well, Surfer Girl must be toddlers since it's babby's first Boy Beaches song.

Hey, it's kind of a little bit like 2004 in here all over again. Fake harpsichords and tack pianos, lack of fuzz bass, Wrecking Crew vs. Brian's band, Beach Boys harmonic blend vs. Brian's band, Smile vs. Presents Smile.


I think Marilyn is a million times more attractive than those California Girls. She and Diane are tops in my book and they make me swoon. What i always wondered was what she thought when Brian was singing "If Mars had life on it, I might find my wife on it." Uhh, Brian? Can we talk?

I must admit I saw a video clip of Marilyn in one of the documentaries early on in their marriage and WOW did I find her to have a very exotic alluring look. She changed as she aged it seems but I can definitely see her appeal as a youth and a woman. She also gave birth to two girls who are attractive in their own ways. Wendy is more my type, but Carnie is sexy - dare I admit it? She's got a wild spirit you can tell - she's a Wilson for sure.

Does anyone seriously consider Sgt. Pepper's the best album of all time anymore? Heck, it's not even the best album by the Beatles.

Who has heard all the future music to determine it the all time best album? Where does time begin and end for such a distinction to be made? Pet Sounds is lightyears beyond Pepper. I never tire of this discussion. Paul McCartney was a Brian Wilson fanboy worse than many here in his attempts to better the master. George Martin, too, only wishes he had one grain of sand worth of Brian's creativity. He worships Good Vibrations. Good Vibrations is everything George Martin is not. It is cool & has a funkadelic feel to it. George Martin is a classical dinosaur, he can handle a folky Strawberry Fields Forever demo from John but he could never touch the gospel psychedelia of Good Vibrations.

Oh don't get me started, it's so overrated

Tell me why. Let me hear the gospel, brother.

Don't get me wrong, I like BWPS as great completed presentation of the SMiLE material, I just think the album material that was recorded in 1966 had an intensity that BWPS didn't recreate for me.

That makes sense.

It's funny -- I've been arguing a lot of points here, although mainly in defense of BWPS. But I do think that there's no question it's a separate thing from the original sessions. Closely connected yes, but clearly a different beast (and, toward the end, one that comments on itself in the new VDP lyrics).

So I have no problem making the distinction, and also no problem saying that those original recordings are magical. And that original BB blend cannot be topped. Absolutely not.

But -- all of that being said -- I think BWPS has its own authority and integrity, and it doesn't come just from the fact that Brian authorized and performed it. It comes from the fact that Van Dyke was there. And Darian. And that the BW band put so much of themselves in re-creating the music in a way that honored yet didn't threaten their boss.

Because if there's one tangible difference between the versions, it's that BWPS is almost aggressively upbeat. It is driven, and it is looking ahead, and it does not look back, and it is not scared or sad or melancholic. It is joy and triumph, but it is a joy and triumph of determination and effort. The original sessions are haunted by ghosts, and full of unfulfilled potential. The joy is found in seemingly boundless inspiration that would soon become too bounded indeed.

Well I only consider about 6 or 7 of the songs on it great..

Contains obvious filler, I find it childish at times, production is not my thing either .

It's just massively overrated and one of my least favourite Beatles albums.

Also too much McCartney

I actually COMPLETELY agree!
Listen to AlternateBrianWilson Presents SMiLE, Specifically CIFOTM, it is so dark and mysterious!

Especially the part with Murry's voice spliced in.

Absolutely, that's some scary sh*t!

I am a huge fan of the melancholy sound of SMiLE, which is why H&V on BWPS was a big let down for me...

...So you prefer your own mental perspective on what Smile could/should have been like, to the actual finished album as released by the guy who created it.

Yes, folks, "Smile" as released in 2004 is very different from what "Smile" would have been like in 1967.  "Smile" as would-have-been-released in 1967 is very different from "Smile" as would-have-been-released in 1966.  It was always a moving target.  The idea that it's still capable of moving even after 1967 (or 1971, or 1973) is a bit of a headspace-shift, but not really an impossible stretch to make.  So it's all been re-recorded?  "Smile"'s been built on rough-draft pieces being partially or completely re-re-recorded with different players ever since the second day of recording on "Good Vibrations".

None of the changes make "Smile" -- the released Brian Wilson album -- any less legitimate or authentic or true than "Smile" the unfinished Beach Boys album.

As usual with these sorts of exclusive canon/dogma debates, the problem comes when people try to present it as either-or.  "BWPS is not Smile"?  No.  BWPS is Smile.  And The Smile Sessions version is Smile.

Neither set of recordings is Smile-the-myth-the-great-unfinished-legend-of-an-album -- which I suspect some fans are more invested in than the actual music.  But when it comes to the actual work?  We aren't the ones who get to define it, the creators are.  (The creator to whom being "much different" still doesn't stop it being "Smile".)

Cheers,
Jon Blum

It's the idea that we therefore have that authority to decide instead of him which doesn't stand up.

No matter how you slice it, we had even less to do with producing Smile than he did!


It's still his call rather than ours.  If he changes his mind?  That's his prerogative.  Heck, he could be like Ridley Scott and keep putting out new variations on "Blade Runner" every few years -- he can do that.  Doesn't mean we can't like a previous version better than what he sees as the definitive one.  But at the end of the day, it still isn't really ours to define...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

What if BWPS had Time To Get Alone & Diamond Head - still Smile?

Like Andrew said, BWPS is a version of SMiLE, but it's not the SMiLE. Nobody can argue with that.

BWPS is neither Smile nor not-Smile. It is not different, not similar. Dig?

I'm sorry, I forgot that Brian is now a helpless and uncreative vegetable that had absolutely no input in BWPS whatsoever. Thank goodness there were people who were able to cover his old works.


This is the argument I follow.


No doubt about that!


So do I, unless someone proves to me they said that for marketing reasons only.


You know, although I regard BWPS as the finished SMiLE, I don't "disregard the original sessions" at all.


I don't imply at all that the earlier sessions aren't SMiLE. As someone else stated here, they BOTH are SMiLE. The 1966/67 recordings exist in a never finished limbo, SADLY. The 2004 album is a finished original work.


Blow me down, it is! :)


Mine too, BWPS doesn't sound near as good as the 1966/67 recordings.


Must be a reason it hasn't!  ;D

I agree with you.

Indeed. I really don't understand the resistance to BWPS as being SMiLE. It is Brian presenting SMiLE (as the title states). In 2004 Brian recorded what he wanted recorded, and released it as an album. Thus he finished it...thus it is definitive. Because he went back and re-recorded it does not make it illegitimate. It just makes it what it is. There was no SMiLE 66/67...however there is a released SMiLE that Brian calls finished...how this is so hard to grasp is beyond me.

 ;D

oops  ::)

agree with this, BWPS is a positive and joyous take on SMiLE, probly as its still carries thru the live performance momentum from his band, it's less contemplative, subtle and gentle.
Also the dynamics/accents in the mix's between the 2 really differ alot (more so in some sections than others like Fire etc) , which can make a huge difference in what emotions it conveys to the listener.
An example (altho totally dif music) is Marvin Gaye's 'What's going on', on the deluxe edition they've also included the rejected and unreleased Motown mix of the album, the difference is unbelievable in what it projects and conveys, it changes the whole dynamics of its content lyrically and musically.

i think this is the crux of what the dif with BWPS and SMiLE 66/67, the performance, mix and execution are very very different to each other - there's alot of albums remixed/remastered that show improvements/impairments/changes in the finnished piece - if dif people make a cake to the same instructions, with the same ingredients - you dont really get the exact same cake, thats what makes us human, its the human element involved in this that surely bring out the dif vibes

great thread this by the way, really interesting thoughts - Darian defo helped facilitate BWPS massively, that cant be indoubt, that BWPS informs TSS alittle, implies Darian's influence has helped us finaly arrive at the impending TSS.

Something ALOT of fans, and obsessives must be thankfull for finally getting their hands on - after all this is the most famous unreleased Boot in popular music.
That it's now coming out as a Session Boxset seems the best presentation for this 'album' - Like alot are saying, the source never was finnished, but it put down some roots that are finaly coming back up thru the soil

we've had...
Smiley Smile
GVBS - 30 odd mins of Smile stuff
BWPS Live
BWPS - Recorded

and finally the actually sessions that started the whole thing off
that has got to be seen as brilliant book end to this fantastic period of BB's

They should have named BWPS "Brian Wilson Presents the Smile Sessions" or "Brian Wilson Reimagines Smile". It would have been closer to reality and this thread wouldn't even exist.

Or would it?  ::)

seems abit pernickety tbh - BWPS kinda does what it says on the tin, and links in with his live BWPS tour he'd been doing

Listen up guys, I just put Smiley Smile on blasting through my 25 watt marshall amp with the EQ and gain set to my liking.

Let's get something straight about Heroes & Villains: The Beach Boys vocals will never be topped by anyone, ever. There is enthusiasm and a youthful glow to their voices that Brian's band DOES NOT HAVE AT ALL. Brian's voice was unmistakable back in the day - for its strange alluring quality. On BWPS it takes some explaining to get into it. I tried to get friends into it around 2004 and some did take the bait but under the understanding that "This is the old man re-version, not the real deal as it should've/could've been" - Smile is a sustained myth by now, and listening to BWPS is often largely an imaginary experience only aided by the album itself. It's a What If mystery all the way through. Nothing ever completes the myth, it just keeps morphing around certain basic archetypes, certain skeletal structures of thought in which the concepts roam.

Carl Wilson has a great quote in an article from the 60s that "things just happen" and that they never felt like they were doing anything - it was all being done. That's my paraphrasial take on his meaning reflected back into my particular understanding. The problem with Brian's band is that they are too self-aware of their place. The Beach Boys were a living entity not done before in that exact way - it was new, spontaneous, real. Brian's band are tuning into a dead thought, basically, and imitating it for recreation. It's The Bible, instead of Christ walking around with stones in his sandals. Smile in 1966 and 1867 to this abstracted "I" of chaos mind is 'avant garde' or whatever you want to call it. It's definitely not fluff pop like Harper's Bizarre. That music has always sounded faceless to me, well done but without depth. Brian went abstract - think of the parts that eventually became Cabinessence! BWPS is a live performance on most tracks right? It's not record verse / record chorus / splice together, right? That defeats the whole point of Smile as far as I'm concerned. Smile seemed like it would have been an album utilizing the genius techniques in Good Vibrations that gave the world a taste. After all, if the people enjoyed the jarring edits in Good Vibrations [not bad cut ins, just obviously not one band live entire song] then surely they would enjoy Heroes and Villains, Cabinessence... right? Brian seems to have been a very idealistic fellow in his early twenties and perhaps even still is just in a crushed, defeated, now shattered and saint like way, but one can easily imagine him flying on some substances and thinking he's onto the most progressive sound in modern pop - at least when considered within the context of his contemporaries. I realize there was a LOT of music around and strange music has always been around but that it was Brian Wilson channeling these LSD consciousness songs like Do You Like Worms is just very, very intriguing. On Smile 1966 or whenever Worms was done I forget, it has an eerie, mystical, LSD trip like psychedelia to it - the Bicycle Ryder section is all the proof Bill Tobelman needs that Smile is LSD inspired Zen rock. It sounds just like you drifted off into an acid dream. It's entirely absent on BWPS. If that satisfies the rest of you then I guess that's ok by me but I'd rather take the fragments of the real deal, the mystical harpsichord over Darian's lame samples and phony touch keys with no life to them because they're just digital. The reverb is all wrong on BWPS too, it doesn't work in stereo as it does in mono! Hello - Phil Spector! Mono! I thought this was a Brian Wilson record? What's this stereo sh*t? I think all the devoted fans should voluntarily be hit in the ear with a 2 by 4 so that we can join Brian totally in the Vision of the Mono - Vision of the One - the None - the No-Thing - Smile is Zen rock, transmitting the doctrine beyond words - wahalalulei wahalalula keeni waka pula, wahalulei wahalalula keeni waka pula wahalalulei wahalalula keeni waka pula, wahalulei wahalalula keeni waka pula wahalalulei wahalalula keeni waka pula, wahalulei wahalalula keeni waka pula wahalalulei wahalalula keeni waka pula, wahalulei wahalalula keeni waka pula. That part is pretty good on BWPS - I dig how Brian does it live actually with his knowing Smile to the zen freaks in the audience. Maybe Brian was into the mystical Hawaiin religion where you tune into your subconscious and unconscious to manifest magic in the word. Is Smile magic? Is Smile Zen? Here's Bill with the weather -

LOL. This would imply that there was an original completed SMiLE to begin with....you can't reimagine an album that never existed in the first place.

As you said earlier, Brian re-recorded songs he wrote in 1966/67 in 2004. He added lyrics with help from his original SMiLE collaborator Van Dyke Parts. He assembled the songs into a cohesive manner - allowing the use of his element suite, his bicycle trip, and his spiritual songs - and then he released the songs....how this does not make it a legitimate version of SMiLE is beyond me. He IS the artist. He is the composer...thus, as has been said numerous times above: he is the only one that gets to define what it is. If he wants to call it SMiLE then it is SMiLE.

Your version of SMiLE doesn't exist, never has existed, and will never exist. However Brian's finished version does exist...he said so.

Ok, let's say "Brian Wilson Reimagines the Smile Sessions". Ha! What now?


It exists, and it isn't Smile. Except for the wifeandmanagers.

this is where the thread becomes a tad like the Boxset Thread which ive tired of going on now...

before it was interesting, now its about 'wife and managers' and ''I'm right cus i said so, nope I'M right cus I said so....''
lets keep this on topic, that way its much more fun and pleasantly informative at times

The original Smile does exist - in Imagination. This is the living myth. Each fan has the original Smile. This is the secret & the final truth. Smile is within us all. The smile that you send out returns to you. Indian wisdom. Smile is not something "out there". It's "in here". Dig it, guys. You dig Worms, right? Easy.

I had no idea that so many here regard BWPS to be the Smile.  That seems to be the opposite of the majority of views expressed on the boards back in '04.  I happen to like BWPS.  When I saw Brian and his band play the piece in October of that year, I was absolutley blown away.  One of the best concert experiences that I've had in all of my 55 years.  When I bought the CD, I played it a lot...probably too much.  There are some great things on that 2004 presentation of the Smile music.  That second movement still blows me away.  The musicianship is great, the recording is fine, the vocals are all good, although Brian is...well...older (which works to an advantage on some songs, and not so much on others).  I never cared if the harpsichord or tack-piano were sampled.  They sounded good to me then, and they still do.  I don't play BWPS very much anymore, though, and there are reasons why, but it's difficult to put into words.  

The '66-'67 recordings have something magic in them.  I (and others) have called it the 'spook' factor.  That, to me, doesn't necessarily mean that the original recordings are scarier or darker (although in some cases they are).  I guess the 'spook' could be a number of factors.  Yeah, recording techniques, vintage equipment, etc. have something to do with it, that's obvious.  There was something else happening, though.  The environment has to be considered.  The world, and perhaps especially L.A., was going through some big changes in 1966.  Morals were changing, music was changing at a frantic pace, it was an age of exploration.  Experimentation with various narcotic substances, experimentaion with various philosophies was the norm among the young and young at heart.  Brian Wilson was no exception, and you can hear it in the music that was recorded for Smile back then.  This was 1966.  Nothing like this was being recorded in L.A. in 1966.  Magic.  Alchemy.  In a nutshell, I think that is the 'spook'.  I can hear that 'spook' whenever I play the original sessions.  That is what is missing in BWPS.  

So, are the '66-'67 sessions "Smile"?  Nope.  The Brian Wilson of 1966-1967 never finished it.  So, BWPS is finished, so that must be "Smile", right?  Nope.  The spook still lives in 1966 with 20-something year old Brian Wilson.  They're both not around anymore.  "Smile" can never be, because it never was.  

edit: I think ghost just said it better than I could, about 5 posts above.  Perhaps he'd add to my last sentence 'Smile will always be, because it always was'.

    

Yeah, people complain about the sound of BWPS...on CD. But I also recall hearing people say BWPS sounds amazing on vinyl. (And please...spare me the whole vinyl-is-God thing. It's apples and oranges to me...)

BUT...I do recall asking a couple years back if anybody had done a needle-drop of BWPS...or perhaps talked the good Dr. Ebbetts into doing so. Did this ever happen?

I would love to add a needledrop to my SMiLE library...if only I could find one...

I never had a problem with the sound of BWPS.  I think it sounds great.  It's missing something else.

Damn man me too... I heard Joanna Leary's Cow on vinyl [it's on YouTube] and it really does sound good. I've been looking for a vinyl rip of BWPS for YEARS.

I don't consider BWPS to be the Smile.  I consider it to be the only complete Smile if that makes any sense.  And to describe it as a 'cover' would be to undermine it IMO...just as to describe BWPS as the  Smile would undermine the material of the original sessions.


ME toooooooooooo.

I know exactly what you mean. It is missing the Beach Boy blend.

....


aaaaaaand the synthesizer kills it too.  ;D

I Have some 66'-67' stuff of vinyl, if you're interested PM me, consider it done :D

SMiLE is an idea. It is an album that was to be humorous, it was to carry the sound of the elements, it was to make us laugh, cry, pray, and send us on a spiritual journey from Plymouth Rock to Hawaii. BWPS did all this for me. The idea worked for me. Thus, the idea of SMiLE was carried out to my (and Brian's) liking. The idea of SMiLE was completed - according to the composer of the work.

Call it what you want to call it...call it Brian Wilson talks to Melinda/management, then talks to Darian, then re-records, and then finally presents The Smile Sessions - whatever helps you sleep at night ::) - Brian calls it a finished work of SMiLE...and that work has turned a lot of people to liking the Beach Boys and Brian Wilson compositions. Mission accomplished.

Because the wrecking crew or the Beach Boys weren't on it does not make the idea/finished work any less satisfactory. Just because Brian forgot some tidbits and didn't add them to BWPS* doesn't make BWPS an illegitimate version of SMiLE.

*he probably did the same thing with Pet Sounds - ideas are fleeting, it doesn't make the final product any less legitimate just because those ideas weren't used.

Actually 3 of my versions of SMiLE exist... and two more in my mind I didn't get to splice together yet.  ;D


Noone does, nobody can top the BBs, you can't blame Brian's band.  ???


Absolutely. SMiLE was to be an "American Gothic" trip, and BWPS is. Too bad he called it "Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE" to go with the previous "Brian Wilson Presents Pet Sounds" CD/DVD.

Brian says a LOT of things. What's his favorite movie again?

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. To me it's way less satisfactory.

Ah, but you see, the difference is that Pet Sounds was released when it was supposed to be, so we know what Brian wanted it to be like at that time. We don't know what Brian wanted Smile to be like in mid-1967. Hell, he probably didn't know it himself, and probably still doesn't know it today.

On your first point. True. Brian has no idea what the hell he likes/wants/etc. He is a vegetable. ::)

On your second point - that's my point - you're basing the legitimacy of SMiLE on your personal basis (you want the wrecking crew, you want the Beach Boys, you want a fleeting idea)...you're not basing the legitimacy of the work on Brian's opinion. YOU can say that SMiLE isn't SMiLE (whatever that means) - fine, that's YOUR opinion, my point is that the composer has dubbed BWPS as SMiLE...thus I think he has some say in the matter...though apparently his say doesn't matter to some people around here. His supposed favorite movie is Norbit - all credibility from thereon vanished. ::)

On your third point. Brian never knew what SMiLE wanted to be like back in the day...thus there is no SMiLE and thus, from your standpoint, you can't tell us what SMiLE isn't (since it never existed). Like I said, SMiLE is an idea, a concept created by Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks...recorded to album form in 2004, released to the public in completed form.

Also, my point on Pet Sounds was, hypothetically, that Brian may have had an idea for background vocals on 'Don't Talk' but forgot what he wanted. Doesn't make the song any less beautiful. (You were claiming that part of the reason why you think BWPS is not definitive is because Brian may have forgotten an idea he had in '67 and didn't transfer it to the 2004 recordings. It doesn't matter. It doesn't make the music/sequencing any less beautiful...it's all relative).

Tssk. Where did I say he was a vegetable? (and if he is, he's my favorite one). He's an artist promoting his work, and the record company & wifeandmanagers have a say in what he's going to tell interviewers. "Nah, it's isn't Smile, it would have been much different, this album is just rerecorded songs, presented as a finished album, but it's not what I would have done in 1967" probably wasn't the right thing to say. Although he commented that the 2004 album is different sonically from what he was going towards 37 years before.

I'm saying BWPS isn't Smile. Not that Smile isn't Smile (although for you, BWPS is Smile, so...) Besides, I didn't base its legitimacy on what I want. I based it on what it would have been. I said that Smile would have used real instruments, the Beach Boys and the Wrecking Crew had it been released in 1967.

Yellow is my opinion, green is yours. To me Smile is an unfinished and unreleased album recorded in 1966/1967, to you Smile is an idea, that includes the original recordings and BWPS. I personally refer to this idea as the "Smile saga", to differentiate it from the unreleased album. Maybe it's just semantics at that point. But I think we'll just agree to disagree.

Pet Sounds was released when it was supposed to be, so we can reasonably assume that Brian had had enough time to play with all his ideas for it and decide whether to reject or include them on the album. With Smile, it's different. It looks like he scrapped it before he had time to record all his potential ideas, which is why on BWPS we can only hear the ideas that had already been recorded. Perhaps Smile, if released in 1967, would have used only these ideas (the later ones being ditched) and would have sounded *exactly* like BWPS (although it most likely wouldn't have - it wouldn't have fit on a 33rpm record because of technical limitations) But perhaps it would have used other parts that Brian would have thought of later. We will never know.

I've prepared a batch of kool aid for us all. Put on BWPS and we'll all be In Blue Hawaii in no time.

You're right. It's semantics. We'll agree to disagree.

...and again, we're right back to the detail that the world doesn't actually revolve around what people say on this board.  Sorry, mods.  :-)


But you're still basing its "legitimacy" on criteria you select -- that focus on "would have been".  And we don't actually have that authority over the work.  Smile exists outside of us.

(And the criteria people are selecting often don't reflect the creator's intentions even at the time.  Some posters have been loving the scary, downbeat aspects of Smile...  the ones which caused Brian to want to scrap "Fire" because it was too freaky.  So it's not part of the "would have been".  He didn't want Smile to be like that, even at the time -- that's not a 2004 revision of his intentions, it's an expression of his intentions right then...)

Cheers,
Jon Blum

How do you explain Fall Breaks And Back To Winter? Or Smiley Smile Wind Chimes? Or Do You Like Worms? Etc.

EDIT: I guess you would argue that Worms would have probably been scrapped too. But the other two were released a few months after Smile was scrapped.

Brian didn't want freaky at the time? May I remind all of the "... scare a lot of people" quote from Brian during the time? Seems that he did want something unusual, strange, far outside the box. Something a little dangerous - on the edge.

Here's a little curve ball for the argument:  has everyone forgotten that much of the SMiLE sessions were never meant to be heard by all of us?  That it took some sneaky, illegal, and perhaps unethical (to the artists) acts to make it possible for us to hear them?  Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I've had the opportunity to hear those tracks.  I love 'em.  But think about it.  Technically, officiallythere never was a '67 SMiLE.  

I know, I know that's all about to change.......


hopefully.......

So, if Smile had been released in 1967, it wouldn't have used 1967 instruments, the Beach Boys and the Wrecking Crew? Interesting.  ::)

Smile isn't Smile.

 :lol

Eh, the best BWPS mastering in the world can't change the fact it uses Kurzweil digital samples rather than a real harpsichord. This is why I prefer the sound of a poor tape dub of a beat up 1966 acetate over BWPS. Just my .02.

My perspective has changed slightly since the release of BWPS.  At the time, I pretty much considered it THE SMiLE.

Now it's a little more complex than that.

Yes, the original intent back in 2003 was to present the SMiLE material in a way that flows nicely for live performance. That was the genesis of the project. However, as the project involved, Brian started to get more into it and remember certain things, how certain pieces fit together. The introduction of Van Dyke into the project... his being a part of it cannot be understated. He brought legitimacy to the whole deal. Once he came on board, I think the mindset changed. They were completing sections that didn't have lyrics, they were putting things in a cohesive order. They were doing in 2003/2004 what they couldn't and didn't do in 1966/1967. This is not to say they were completing SMiLE, rather taking existing pieces and turning it into something new, yet similar. I get the feeling (and I may be totally off-base) that once VDP came on the scene, Darian let the two masters work their magic, perhaps offering opinions, but pretty much stayed on the sidelines.

I, for one, am incredibly grateful that the upcoming release is, in fact, titled THE SMiLE SESSIONS and not just SMiLE. SMiLE never will be, sadly. However, BWPS and TSS combined give us a great insight and approximation of what could have been, direct from the folks who, under different circumstances, would have created and released the greatest album of all time.  And that, my friends, is something very special indeed.

Brian a vegetable? That's just insulting.

But if he is...he's my favorite vege-table.

[

I Have some 66'-67' stuff of vinyl, if you're interested PM me, consider it done :D
[/quote]

Nah, I just need a needledrop of BWPS.

I USED to have the 3 LP vinyl set of the old stuff, which I then sold to a disingenuous (former?) member of this board, who took it, made up lame excuses for not paying, then just vanished...from my PM box, at least. But thank you anyway! (And of course, bad on me for trusting someone enough not to get the check first...guess I'm dumb...)

WIN.

"If you can just give me one Brian I'll make it last all day!"

Haha

If you brought a big brown bag of him home, I'd...wait, that's getting sick.

I hold the copyright to that joke buddy - just scroll up ;D

Dang firsties!

Anyone think Cabinessence would've gone into "I Ran"? Who ran the "I RAN" horse?

20/20 LP = Illegal
Surf's Up LP = Unethical
GV CD Box = Sneaky

P.S. - I realize you said MUCH of them, but I guess an argument could be made that Brian didn't want any of it heard other than what was on Smiley Smile, but he was overruled, cajoled etc... But if you are referring to bootleggers being the culprit of unleashing the Smile music against everyone's wishes...i think there is solid evidence that Dennis Wilson was the orig. Smile bootlegger, and his transfer is what made up the first Smile bootlegs, which leaked to friends and then in multi generation loss form to the public on cassette circa 1978/1979 or so.

Yes, I've often wondered about that, too.   "Who ran the 'I RAN' horse" is pure VDP punnery, and I'm pretty sure that's how the BBs sing it on the '60s version.  On BWPS, though, the line sounds a bit inconsistent with it occasionally sounding like "I RUN horse." 

Details Brian or Van Dyke apparently forgot to clue them into...

That part of Cabinessence reminds me of the beginning of Richard Wagner's Die Walkure. The cellos, the moving rushing pace.