Darian and SMiLE

[Andrew G. Doe]

No - because "R(h)onda" II was recorded less than 50 days after the first version by someone who was, essentially, exactly the same person and who's decision it was to revise it. Not over 35 years later by someone who was, to all intents and purposes, a completely different person and had to be persuaded that this was a good idea.

I don't follow your reasoning/rationale/argument. (Those are the three words my dictionary offers for the German expression "Argumentation", I don't know which one is the right translation.)

OK, in simple English:

In early 1965, Brian Wilson (aged 22, one nervous breakdown behind him, light pot smoker and newly married) recorded a song called "Help Me Ronda". Then, 48 days later, (still aged 22, one nervous breakdown behind him, light pot smoker and newly married), he re-recorded it, because he felt he could improve on it.

In late 1966/early 1967, Brian Wilson (aged 24, one nervous breakdown behind him, dedicated pothead and speed freak, veteran of at least three acid trips and married two years) recorded a series of songs and song fragments intended for an album called Smile. For a whole mess of reasons, he decided to abandon the project. Then, roughly 13,150 days later (aged 60, several breakdowns behind him as well as decades of sustained and considerable substance abuse, binge drinking, exploitation, chemical control, divorced and remarried with two newly adopted children) he was told that to revise Smile was the next logical step in his solo career.

The difference between the BDW that recorded two versions of "R(h)onda" within 50 days in 1965 and the BDW that was cajoled into revisiting Smile some 36 years after he'd turned his back on it is why the former isn't a cover, and the latter is. It's called creative continuity and context.

[Sam_BFC]

I just think describing as a 'cover' is underselling it slightly given that it was still recorded by/with the participation of the original creator (albeit 37 years later).  Can you really 'cover' your own material?

I think of it as a re-recording personally.  But these are just labels really and quite unimportant.

I'd say the same about the (2006?) re-recording of God Only Knows simply because it was fronted by its original creator.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Honestly, When Talking about the differences in SMiLE and BWPS, I'd say it has nothing to do with the band.

I think back in 66/67, Brian should have paid the boys as Sesson-Musicians instead of as bandmates, I mean,
Pet Sounds and SMiLE are both essentially Brian Wilson Albums, Correct?
Pink Floyd did this with their keyboard player... why didn't Brian?

[Iron Horse-Apples]

I think Brian thinks it's SMiLE

I think he thinks he finished it

What does he know though eh?

We can all join that big long line of people who have enjoyed telling Brian he's wrong.

After all, the man's a brain fried idiot....

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

After all, the man's a brain fried idiot....

Sorry, but this IS true. (not the idiot part, lol)

[drbeachboy]

I think Brian thinks it's SMiLE

I think he thinks he finished it

What does he know though eh?

We can all join that big long line of people who have enjoyed telling Brian he's wrong.

After all, the man's a brain fried idiot....

You think, but do you really know?  BWPS is Brian's live presentation of Smile recreated in the sudio. TSS is the original Beach Boys recordings. They are both Smile music, no doubt about that.

[Shady]

Was Darian responsible for the pirate chant 

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Was Darian responsible for the pirate chant 

OH GOD I HOPE NOT.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Was Darian responsible for the pirate chant 

Got VDP written all over it !

[Iron Horse-Apples]

I think Brian thinks it's SMiLE

I think he thinks he finished it

What does he know though eh?

We can all join that big long line of people who have enjoyed telling Brian he's wrong.

After all, the man's a brain fried idiot....

You think, but do you really know?  BWPS is Brian's live presentation of Smile recreated in the sudio. TSS is the original Beach Boys recordings. They are both Smile music, no doubt about that.

I forget the actual quotes, but he made quite a big deal about the fact he's finished it, and it was in the liner notes with a picture of him snogging his dog.

My own personal view is that had he finished it in '67 it would have been a whole different beast, but if he and VDP say this is the finished SMiLE, then I accept it as that.

I think a lot of the people who do not accept it as SMiLE are the people who had their noses put out of joint because Brian dared to finish it and take away their secret little special thing.

OMG Get Over Yourselves. Lol, innit. Deal With It and all those other brainless sayings.

He finished it.

[ghost]

Honestly, When Talking about the differences in SMiLE and BWPS, I'd say it has nothing to do with the band.

Band has nothing to do with it? BWPS hardly sounds anything like the original Wrecking Crew sessions. Just compare 2004's Child with the fragments of old. It's a totally different sound. Someone pointed out recently that the Wrecking Crew were all trained jazz musicians for the most part so they brought an entirely different feel to what they played than Brian's band for BWPS. The original sessions benefit from spontaneity - they were playing very new music. BWPS is so far from a spontaneous capture of the original spirit. It's almost dead, neutered, emasculated.

My biggest gripe with it is just the sound of the thing. It's harsh from the very second it begins with Our Prayer beginning with a Pro Tools glitch. The album sounds too BIG in the stereo field to me, too overwhelming to listen to often. Compare the original Good Vibrations with the remake. That's BWPS as a whole!

[Jon Stebbins]

I think back in 66/67, Brian should have paid the boys as Sesson-Musicians instead of as bandmates, I mean,
Pet Sounds and SMiLE are both essentially Brian Wilson Albums, Correct?

Not correct. Take Beautiful Dreamer out of your DVD player and do some additional research.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Oh, sorry about the "Misunderstanding"
I mean writing wise, not sound-wise.

On that note, I would describe the "Crew's" sound as more "Quirky" and The BW Band as more Clean and 21st Century.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

I think back in 66/67, Brian should have paid the boys as Sesson-Musicians instead of as bandmates, I mean,
Pet Sounds and SMiLE are both essentially Brian Wilson Albums, Correct?

Not correct. Take Beautiful Dreamer out of your DVD player and do some additional research.

BTW: I have been studying SMiLE for 3 Years, ask me anything non-opinionated and consider it answered

[drbeachboy]

Oh, sorry about the "Misunderstanding"
I mean writing wise, not sound-wise.

On that note, I would describe the "Crew's" sound as more "Quirky" and The BW Band as more Clean and 21st Century.

Yeah, but if you are talking writing-wise, then shoot, might as well consider anything the Beach Boys did from Surfin' Safari through Wild Honey as Brian Wilson albums. I get it, Brian's a genius, the rest are no talent schmucks.

[Jeff]

I think Brian thinks it's SMiLE

I think he thinks he finished it

What does he know though eh?

We can all join that big long line of people who have enjoyed telling Brian he's wrong.

After all, the man's a brain fried idiot....

You think, but do you really know?  BWPS is Brian's live presentation of Smile recreated in the sudio. TSS is the original Beach Boys recordings. They are both Smile music, no doubt about that.

I forget the actual quotes, but he made quite a big deal about the fact he's finished it, and it was in the liner notes with a picture of him snogging his dog.

My own personal view is that had he finished it in '67 it would have been a whole different beast, but if he and VDP say this is the finished SMiLE, then I accept it as that.

I think a lot of the people who do not accept it as SMiLE are the people who had their noses put out of joint because Brian dared to finish it and take away their secret little special thing.

OMG Get Over Yourselves. Lol, innit. Deal With It and all those other brainless sayings.

He finished it.

Brainless indeed.

A lot of the back-and-forth is over terminology.  Obviously Brian (with considerable help) "finished" A version of Smile.  But again, Brian himself said that his 2004 version of Smile was "much different, much different" than what he wanted Smile to be in 1966-67.  I notice that none of you people who want to disregard the original sessions even acknowledge that quote.

I think that "the people who do not accept [BWPS] as SMiLE" (your words) recognize that the 2004 version is much different, is not the original vision, and therefore is not the "finished" version of the 1966-67 Smle.  They're two separate things.  One with the Beach Boys, one solo.  One with a young, motivated, completely-in-control Brian, one with a Brian who lets others take control.  One that is often dark, confusing, even sinister.  One that is, in Brian's words, "much happier, much more uplifting."

People's tastes vary, so some like one, and some the other (many like both).  But to say that the latter "IS" Smile, and that, by implication, the earlier sessions are NOT, is ludicrous.

[SG7]

I blame the fake harpischord and tack piano....

 

[ghost]

I blame the fake harpischord and tack piano....

 

And the tame distorted bass on Child [and lacking in Cabinessence].

[Iron Horse-Apples]

I think Brian thinks it's SMiLE

I think he thinks he finished it

What does he know though eh?

We can all join that big long line of people who have enjoyed telling Brian he's wrong.

After all, the man's a brain fried idiot....

You think, but do you really know?  BWPS is Brian's live presentation of Smile recreated in the sudio. TSS is the original Beach Boys recordings. They are both Smile music, no doubt about that.

I forget the actual quotes, but he made quite a big deal about the fact he's finished it, and it was in the liner notes with a picture of him snogging his dog.

My own personal view is that had he finished it in '67 it would have been a whole different beast, but if he and VDP say this is the finished SMiLE, then I accept it as that.

I think a lot of the people who do not accept it as SMiLE are the people who had their noses put out of joint because Brian dared to finish it and take away their secret little special thing.

OMG Get Over Yourselves. Lol, innit. Deal With It and all those other brainless sayings.

He finished it.

Brainless indeed.

A lot of the back-and-forth is over terminology.  Obviously Brian (with considerable help) "finished" A version of Smile.  But again, Brian himself said that his 2004 version of Smile was "much different, much different" than what he wanted Smile to be in 1966-67.  I notice that none of you people who want to disregard the original sessions even acknowledge that quote.

I think that "the people who do not accept [BWPS] as SMiLE" (your words) recognize that the 2004 version is much different, is not the original vision, and therefore is not the "finished" version of the 1966-67 Smle.  They're two separate things.  One with the Beach Boys, one solo.  One with a young, motivated, completely-in-control Brian, one with a Brian who lets others take control.  One that is often dark, confusing, even sinister.  One that is, in Brian's words, "much happier, much more uplifting."

People's tastes vary, so some like one, and some the other (many like both).  But to say that the latter "IS" Smile, and that, by implication, the earlier sessions are NOT, is ludicrous.

I didn't say, it, Brian said it was SMiLE

This is the point I am making

Please take the time to read my posts properly and do not insinuate I am brainless.

Where in my post did I say that the original sessions are not SMiLE?

Can you read?

Brainless indeed.

Lets stop.

Please, I do not want to get into a row with anyone. I fully respect peoples opinions, and enjoy healthy debate, but don't make it personal Jeff!

As I said, the '67 SMiLE would have been a far different animal, I hugely prefer the original sessions, but if Brian says this is SMiLE, then I accept it as so. And good for him to have finished it and exorcised this huge personal demon. I just find it very demeaning to him to have this achievement poo pooed by a bunch of armchair obsessives.  (And I am guilty of this at times)

How many of you would stand face to face with Brian and tell him this is not SMiLE?

[letsmakeit31]

Going back to Darian my friends, It's all about his hair that always makes me Smile 

[Jeff]

I think Brian thinks it's SMiLE

I think he thinks he finished it

What does he know though eh?

We can all join that big long line of people who have enjoyed telling Brian he's wrong.

After all, the man's a brain fried idiot....

You think, but do you really know?  BWPS is Brian's live presentation of Smile recreated in the sudio. TSS is the original Beach Boys recordings. They are both Smile music, no doubt about that.

I forget the actual quotes, but he made quite a big deal about the fact he's finished it, and it was in the liner notes with a picture of him snogging his dog.

My own personal view is that had he finished it in '67 it would have been a whole different beast, but if he and VDP say this is the finished SMiLE, then I accept it as that.

I think a lot of the people who do not accept it as SMiLE are the people who had their noses put out of joint because Brian dared to finish it and take away their secret little special thing.
OMG Get Over Yourselves. Lol, innit. Deal With It and all those other brainless sayings.

He finished it.

Brainless indeed.

A lot of the back-and-forth is over terminology.  Obviously Brian (with considerable help) "finished" A version of Smile.  But again, Brian himself said that his 2004 version of Smile was "much different, much different" than what he wanted Smile to be in 1966-67.  I notice that none of you people who want to disregard the original sessions even acknowledge that quote.

I think that "the people who do not accept [BWPS] as SMiLE" (your words) recognize that the 2004 version is much different, is not the original vision, and therefore is not the "finished" version of the 1966-67 Smle.  They're two separate things.  One with the Beach Boys, one solo.  One with a young, motivated, completely-in-control Brian, one with a Brian who lets others take control.  One that is often dark, confusing, even sinister.  One that is, in Brian's words, "much happier, much more uplifting."

People's tastes vary, so some like one, and some the other (many like both).  But to say that the latter "IS" Smile, and that, by implication, the earlier sessions are NOT, is ludicrous.

I didn't say, it, Brian said it was SMiLE

This is the point I am making

Please take the time to read my posts properly and do not insinuate I am brainless.

Where in my post did I say that the original sessions are not SMiLE?

Can you read?

Brainless indeed.

Lets stop.

Please, I do not want to get into a row with anyone. I fully respect peoples opinions, and enjoy healthy debate, but don't make it personal Jeff!

As I said, the '67 SMiLE would have been a far different animal, I hugely prefer the original sessions, but if Brian says this is SMiLE, then I accept it as so. And good for him to have finished it and exorcised this huge personal demon. I just find it very demeaning to him to have this achievement poo pooed by a bunch of armchair obsessives.  (And I am guilty of this at times)

How many of you would stand face to face with Brian and tell him this is not SMiLE?

Check out the bolded text above--all your words.  If you didn't want to make it "personal," you could have avoided that stuff.

Anyway, I don't know what quote of Brian's you are even referring to, but it looks like you are misconstruing him and/or giving far, far too much weight to something that he may have been asked to say for marketing purposes.

[Andrew G. Doe]

How many of you would stand face to face with Brian and tell him this is not SMiLE?

Me... and I'm guessing he'd probably shrug and say "yeah, it's not". Because that's Brian.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

I think Brian thinks it's SMiLE

I think he thinks he finished it

What does he know though eh?

We can all join that big long line of people who have enjoyed telling Brian he's wrong.

After all, the man's a brain fried idiot....

You think, but do you really know?  BWPS is Brian's live presentation of Smile recreated in the sudio. TSS is the original Beach Boys recordings. They are both Smile music, no doubt about that.

I forget the actual quotes, but he made quite a big deal about the fact he's finished it, and it was in the liner notes with a picture of him snogging his dog.

My own personal view is that had he finished it in '67 it would have been a whole different beast, but if he and VDP say this is the finished SMiLE, then I accept it as that.

I think a lot of the people who do not accept it as SMiLE are the people who had their noses put out of joint because Brian dared to finish it and take away their secret little special thing.
OMG Get Over Yourselves. Lol, innit. Deal With It and all those other brainless sayings.

He finished it.

Brainless indeed.

A lot of the back-and-forth is over terminology.  Obviously Brian (with considerable help) "finished" A version of Smile.  But again, Brian himself said that his 2004 version of Smile was "much different, much different" than what he wanted Smile to be in 1966-67.  I notice that none of you people who want to disregard the original sessions even acknowledge that quote.

I think that "the people who do not accept [BWPS] as SMiLE" (your words) recognize that the 2004 version is much different, is not the original vision, and therefore is not the "finished" version of the 1966-67 Smle.  They're two separate things.  One with the Beach Boys, one solo.  One with a young, motivated, completely-in-control Brian, one with a Brian who lets others take control.  One that is often dark, confusing, even sinister.  One that is, in Brian's words, "much happier, much more uplifting."

People's tastes vary, so some like one, and some the other (many like both).  But to say that the latter "IS" Smile, and that, by implication, the earlier sessions are NOT, is ludicrous.

I didn't say, it, Brian said it was SMiLE

This is the point I am making

Please take the time to read my posts properly and do not insinuate I am brainless.

Where in my post did I say that the original sessions are not SMiLE?

Can you read?

Brainless indeed.

Lets stop.

Please, I do not want to get into a row with anyone. I fully respect peoples opinions, and enjoy healthy debate, but don't make it personal Jeff!

As I said, the '67 SMiLE would have been a far different animal, I hugely prefer the original sessions, but if Brian says this is SMiLE, then I accept it as so. And good for him to have finished it and exorcised this huge personal demon. I just find it very demeaning to him to have this achievement poo pooed by a bunch of armchair obsessives.  (And I am guilty of this at times)

How many of you would stand face to face with Brian and tell him this is not SMiLE?

Check out the bolded text above--all your words.  If you didn't want to make it "personal," you could have avoided that stuff.

Anyway, I don't know what quote of Brian's you are even referring to, but it looks like you are misconstruing him and/or giving far, far too much weight to something that he may have been asked to say for marketing purposes.

What bolded out text?

I just expressed an opinion and got called brainless for it.

But, as I said, I don't really want a row, and now the mighty AGD has come out against me I'd better watch my back. I'd hate to become the next Phil Cohen!

I'm not really bothered anyway. I love SMiLE whatever incarnation it's in. I've loved it for 23 years. I was overjoyed to discover the first few tracks, and was overjoyed to get my first boot in 1990. I  was tremendously overjoyed to be at the first two SMiLE concerts in '04, and then having it on CD seemed like the icing on the cake, despite it's shortcomings. I'm very happy for Brian that he finished it, and I stand by what I say that if he says it's SMiLE then it's SMiLE. Better add an IMO there.

But then the box was announced, and I was overly-overjoyed. No complaints here!

Sorry if this offends you Jeff, Peace  

Ah, I see the bolded out text now. You mean this

I think a lot of the people who do not accept it as SMiLE are the people who had their noses put out of joint because Brian dared to finish it and take away their secret little special thing.

I can see why that might hit a nerve, but I think there's a ring of truth there. SMiLE was very special as an unreleased album. It's lovely to have a thing, a wonderful thing that only you know about. Then to have it finished, and released, and suddenly theres all these people saying how wonderful SMiLE is. These bloody Brianistas jumoing on the bandwagon. Your bandwagon.

I've heard these sentiments expressed a lot of times in relation to BWPS.

If my comments made you angry the maybe you need to look at why.

And if you need to call me brainless again, then I'll accept that, if it means you are working through this minefield of confused feelings you have.

I'm teasing, Peace Jeff, night night

[onkster]

To get reflexively ontological about it:

SMiLE is SMiLE.

1966/67 SMiLE is 1966/67 SMiLE.

BWPS is BWPS.

If you think it's butter, but it's snot, it's Chiffon.

I yam what I yam; it is what it is.


But I have seen too many outta-joint noses from people who think SMiLE is what *they* wanted it be. Therein lies the trouble.

[Wirestone]

More specifically, "SMiLE" is a typographical effect created in the '60s. The name of the album is "Smile."