Darian and SMiLE

[ghost]

A depressing perspective: Smile is really not that great, it was just an album... that didn't make it. Some dudes figured some money could be made on it.

We treat it like it's the Quran or something.

[Jeff]

Since SMiLE ('67) was never completed or released, while BWPS was, why is it so hard for people to comprehend BWPS as the final product with the SMiLE sessions serving as the blueprint (rather than BWPS being merely a "cover" of the SMiLE material)?

This.  BWPS is the only Smile.

Interesting.  How do you think Brian and the other surviving Beach Boys would react if you told them that?  Or the people who are working on the Smile Sessions release?

Actually, I guess you must believe that the Smile Sessions box is going to be comprised exclusively of sessions from BWPS, since the original sessions are, according to you, non-Smile.

[Jon Stebbins]

I think "facsimile" is a bit of a loaded term here -- suggesting that BWPS is in some way deficient on its own, which I think is assuredly not the case.

It is a cover version, but a cover version only in the sense that an orchestra and pianist might perform Rhapsody in Blue today, some 80 years after its writing and initial performance.

Yes, that interpretation does ask us to think of Smile Prime as more as a composition than recording, which is a distinction seldom made in the rock age. But I think we can consider and appreciate it as both things ..

But do you think every inch of the 66/67 Smile was planned and perfected.? No. Much of what we hear in those orig. recordings are happy mistakes. Things that meshed and worked only by experimentation and/or accident. Brian knew to leave these magic moments alone when they appeared out of nowhere, in fact he mined them. He fished for them. Is it a coincidence that countless numbers of these Smile session fingerprints show up in BWPS??? No. Because BWPS is a calculated facsimile of what exists on tape from the Beach Boys sessions. They mimicked what was there as best they could. I guess because it would not have worked legally or politically to use the orig. tapes...they managed to make a usable modern day copy of a good majority of the components. They assembled them in a good way, sometimes using the orig. as their blueprint and sometimes shuffling the deck to make something work. The greatness in what they did is not that they created THE Smile, or finished THE Smile...but that they proved Smile was something that when put in a presentable form was AWESOME. BWPS is proof that Smile had the potential to be two sides of surprisingly accessible avantgardness. New word.

[ghost]

I think "facsimile" is a bit of a loaded term here -- suggesting that BWPS is in some way deficient on its own, which I think is assuredly not the case.

It is a cover version, but a cover version only in the sense that an orchestra and pianist might perform Rhapsody in Blue today, some 80 years after its writing and initial performance.

Yes, that interpretation does ask us to think of Smile Prime as more as a composition than recording, which is a distinction seldom made in the rock age. But I think we can consider and appreciate it as both things ..

But do you think every inch of the 66/67 Smile was planned and perfected.? No. Much of what we hear in those orig. recordings are happy mistakes. Things that meshed and worked only by experimentation and/or accident. Brian knew to leave these magic moments alone when they appeared out of nowhere, in fact he mined them. He fished for them. Is it a coincidence that countless numbers of these Smile session fingerprints show up in BWPS??? No. Because BWPS is a calculated facsimile of what exists on tape from the Beach Boys sessions. They mimicked what was there as best they could. I guess because it would not have worked legally or politically to use the orig. tapes...they managed to make a usable modern day copy of a good majority of the components. They assembled them in a good way, sometimes using the orig. as their blueprint and sometimes shuffling the deck to make something work. The greatness in what they did is not that they created THE Smile, or finished THE Smile...but that they proved Smile was something that when put in a presentable form was AWESOME. BWPS is proof that Smile had the potential to be two sides of surprisingly accessible avantgardness. New word.

I like your posts, Jon. You can always be trusted to leave a nice fat paragraph of brain matter on the page.

[TdHabib]

Darian did a terrific job, better than anyone else. I also believe that Brian's band is the most talented band in the business period. That said, there are points to both arguments. Yes, they were replicating/duplicating the sound the best they could, but I've heard Mark Linnett say Brian wwas involved quite a bit in getting the right sound during the sessions, you can see a bit of that in the studio footage which, while edited to hell and perhaps mimed a bit, shows him so excited he could barely contain it. So there's no use arguing that Brian was brain-dead during the BWPS sessions and the band were note-for-note replacing the original sessions, there's subtle differences if you look for them and Brian was supervising everything.

The REAL benefit of BWPS is in two factors, one of which gets stated a lot first 1) it presents BWPS in a complete form and finally puts to rest the myth that Smile was disconnected chaos, and a bunch of fragments that made no sense. Put all together, you can hear Brian's compositional and arranging skills in full-force, and you can see that his vision in '67 was complete and expert. 2) and most important for me, you hear Brian fully invested in the vocals, doing his first album in over 30 years where he sings BEAUTIFULLY from start to finish and, when thinking about it, shows Brian fully abandoning the "we junked it, it made no sense, it's not appropriate" attitude. He's really caring about this material. And in the personal realm, it lead to him conquering his demon's, writing over a dozen brand new songs and constructing an album from start to finish as many of us thought he never would, and lead to him investing in a set of Gershwin material and singing his best since the 60s on that. For those two factors alone, I'll always love the record.

[37!ws]

TdHabib sums up my thoughts nicely....that, and as far as I'm concerned, BWPS >>IS<< Smile. Why? Because that's what was finished by Brian (note: you need a mess of help to stand alone), produced by Brian, and officially named Smile by Brian.

[Jeff]

TdHabib sums up my thoughts nicely....that, and as far as I'm concerned, BWPS >>IS<< Smile. Why? Because that's what was finished by Brian (note: you need a mess of help to stand alone), produced by Brian, and officially named Smile by Brian.

E.C.: How close is SMiLE 2004 to what you wanted SMiLE 1967 to be?

Brian Wilson: Much different, much different. Much more progressive, much happier, much more uplifting.

http://www.earcandymag.com/brianwilson-2004.htm

Brian: 66-67 Smile and BWPS are "much different."

Various posters on this board: No, no.  Brian's wrong.  BWPS IS Smile.

[monicker]

Bubba Ho-Tep, it's nice to see your name around here again. I'll always remember you as the only person here who likes Disco Volante, or even knows it and mentions it, for that matter. I think you once said something like it was the Pet Sounds of the 90s and i totally agree, though i think 0.0002 people would see that.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

BWPS is Pieces of SMiLE Re-Created for Release.

SMiLE, is an unreleased concept album from 66/67.

That's how I feel.

[ghost]

BWPS is Pieces of SMiLE Re-Created for Release.

SMiLE, is an unreleased concept album from 66/67.

That's how I feel.

add it to wikipedia.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

BWPS is Pieces of SMiLE Re-Created for Release.

SMiLE, is an unreleased concept album from 66/67.

That's how I feel.

add it to wikipedia.

I'm guessing you agree.

[18thofMay]

BWPS is Pieces of SMiLE Re-Created for Release.

SMiLE, is an unreleased concept album from 66/67.

That's how I feel.

BWPS is pieces of SMiLE re-created for live performance, then that performance was replicated in the studio then released.

SMiLE, is an unreleased concept album from 66/67.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

A depressing perspective: Smile is really not that great, it was just an album... that didn't make it. Some dudes figured some money could be made on it.

We treat it like it's the Quran or something.

SMiLE is incredible, and just the fact that pretty much 2 men came up with it is incredible!

[Zander]

Brian Wilson Presents Smile - not Brian Wilson Presents an Interpretation Of The Smile Project from 1967. If Brian says it's Smile that's good enough for me.

[Andrew G. Doe]

BWPS is a Smile, but not the Smile, and TSS will be just the same (and not just because there have been strong indications that CD 1 will resemble BWPS). Smile was, and is, the sculptors block: the raw material, which different people will interpret and utilise differently.

There is no definitive Smile because there never can be. That possibility died in 1967.

[rab2591]

Look at it from this point of view: What if Beethoven had written an incredible symphony when he just twenty-three (We'll call it "symphony smile") but shelved it. Then, when he was forty some years old some friends of his convinced him it was brilliant music and deserved to be finished. He writes a few more notes, puts the songs in order....would it not be the true "symphony smile"? It was finished by the same composer, he just used different musicians than he would have when he was twenty-three.

Just saying this: put in a historical context, people in the far future will most likely regard Brian Wilson's SMiLE as THE SMiLE...for, though the musicians are different, the composer is still the same.

[SloopJohnB]

Look at it from this point of view: What if Beethoven had written an incredible symphony when he just twenty-three (We'll call it "symphony smile") but shelved it. Then, when he was forty some years old some friends of his convinced him it was brilliant music and deserved to be finished. He writes a few more notes, puts the songs in order....would it not be the true "symphony smile"? It was finished by the same composer, he just used different musicians than he would have when he was twenty-three.

Just saying this: put in a historical context, people in the far future will most likely regard Brian Wilson's SMiLE as THE SMiLE...for, though the musicians are different, the composer is still the same.

...But in Smile's case, the songs were not only written, but also recorded. The studios, instruments, players and singers are a part of what the original Smile is. Besides, BWPS can be described as rerecordings of what was previously recorded, and thus known. Who are we to say that Brian wouldn't have included pieces unknown to us (and to him!), had he been able to finish Smile in 1967?

It could also be argued that 1966 Brian is not entirely the same person as 2004 Brian, for obvious reasons.

[shelter]

BWPS is a Smile, but not the Smile, and TSS will be just the same (and not just because there have been strong indications that CD 1 will resemble BWPS). Smile was, and is, the sculptors block: the raw material, which different people will interpret and utilise differently.

There is no definitive Smile because there never can be. That possibility died in 1967.

I see your point, but I'm not sure I agree. Brian Wilson was the creator of SMiLE, if he would declare something (like the first disc of the upcoming box/double CD, which I assume will be the album modelled after BWPS) to be the definitive SMiLE, than who would we all be to disagree? It's his project, it's up to him to declare it's official status.

And where do you draw the line between a belated definitive SMiLE, and an interpretation of SMiLE? How long after it was originally abandoned did the possibility of a definitive SMiLE die? The day after? A week, a month, a year, a decade later?

[rab2591]

Look at it from this point of view: What if Beethoven had written an incredible symphony when he just twenty-three (We'll call it "symphony smile") but shelved it. Then, when he was forty some years old some friends of his convinced him it was brilliant music and deserved to be finished. He writes a few more notes, puts the songs in order....would it not be the true "symphony smile"? It was finished by the same composer, he just used different musicians than he would have when he was twenty-three.

Just saying this: put in a historical context, people in the far future will most likely regard Brian Wilson's SMiLE as THE SMiLE...for, though the musicians are different, the composer is still the same.

...But in Smile's case, the songs were not only written, but also recorded. The studios, instruments, players and singers are a part of what the original Smile is.

It could also be argued that 1966 Brian is not entirely the same person as 2004 Brian, for obvious reasons.

One could argue that Beethoven had a particular set of musicians in mind when he created some of his work...But we use different musicians and conductors for each time his music is played live....so is any of his work truly 'definitve'?

And human minds aree constantly changing - Brian Wilson at age 23 and 1 month was not the same a Brian Wilson age 23 and 2 months. So with that logic one could say that had SMiLE been release in '66 it would not have been the definitive SMiLE. It would have been a project molded and evolved over a very short period of time.

All projects evolve - all projects are subjected to outside forces, inside forces...some projects are released soon after conception - others are shelved and picked up again at a later date. Honestly, who are we to say what work is the 'true' work? Isn't that the artists job to say? And if we doubt the artist, does not that just insult his work?

[SloopJohnB]

But one could argue that Beethoven had a particular set of musicians in mind when he created some of his work...

But that's the difference. Smile had a particular set of musicians on tape, and people know the music that's on these tapes. People thus associate this music with the name of Smile. Smile is what happened in 1966/1967. In a way, the fact that it wasn't officially released then doesn't matter, because what matters is the fact that people know the songs.

And human minds aree constantly changing - Brian Wilson at age 23 and 1 month was not the same a Brian Wilson age 23 and 2 months. So with that logic one could say that had SMiLE been release in '66 it would not have been the definitive SMiLE. It would have been a project molded and evolved over a very short period of time.

What's your point? So Surfin' Safari is not the definitive Surfin' Safari because it would have been different had it been recorded later? I don't really get it.

In my opinion, had Smile been released in 1967, it would have been the definitive Smile, because the recordings would have taken place at the same time Brian's ideas came to his mind, so it would have been as close as possible to his original vision. Brian would probably have moved on. Does Brian think "oh, I wish I could have changed that bit on Surfin' Safari"? Maybe. But Surfin' Safari was released in 1962 and it's the definitive version for everybody.

[rab2591]

Surfin' Safari is THE definitive Surfin Safari. Brian Wilson's SMiLE is THE definitive SMiLE. Why? Because Brian said that was the finished work....the artist and composer said that his Teenage Symphony to God was finally finished/completed in 2004.

You are claiming it is not definitive because the final album was not released close enough to the date of the project's genesis and also because the original musicians were not used....but I really don't see how this matters. It's like saying that, hypotheticaly, Da Vinci's Mona Lisa is not definitive because he started it, shelved it, and came back to it with different paints on his palette at a later date.

It doesn't matter what colors Brian used on his palette as long as he is happy with those colors.

Shelter worded this point FAR better than I did:

I see your point, but I'm not sure I agree. Brian Wilson was the creator of SMiLE, if he would declare something (like the first disc of the upcoming box/double CD, which I assume will be the album modelled after BWPS) to be the definitive SMiLE, than who would we all be to disagree? It's his project, it's up to him to declare it's official status.

And where do you draw the line between a belated definitive SMiLE, and an interpretation of SMiLE? How long after it was originally abandoned did the possibility of a definitive SMiLE die? The day after? A week, a month, a year, a decade later?

[Andrew G. Doe]

And where do you draw the line between a belated definitive SMiLE, and an interpretation of SMiLE? How long after it was originally abandoned did the possibility of a definitive SMiLE die? The day after? A week, a month, a year, a decade later?

I draw the line round about summer 1967: if Brian had wanted to put Smile out, we'd not have Smiley Smile. He washed his hands of it, the occasional riff excepted. The next time he was even vaguely OK with the idea was late 1992.

[Loaf]

Darian was the fanboy nerd who became an insider. How many of us dream of that!?

His knowledge of the bootlegs was essential for the sessions of organising the pieces with Brian and Van Dyke.

[Roger Ryan]

I don't find it too difficult to accept SMiLE as a series of sessions that did not coalesce into an finished album in '66/'67, that had a selection of those sessions reworked to perform as a live piece followed by a re-recording of those original sessions to construct an album entitled BWPS and as the name of the box set that collects those original sessions.

Truly, the most unique thing about SMiLE is it is all these things...and very few abandoned projects could be mined for this much entertainment, fan discussion and critical praise. The SMiLE that didn't happen was a finished and released album in 1967; the SMiLE that has happened and is happening is something pretty extraordinary in the world of pop music (and it's the only SMiLE we know).

[celticsurfer]

years ago, the Correct Perspective, in Beach Boys Australia fanzine, wrote that Brian mixed the tapes in late may1967. What do you think of that Andrew?
the Correct Perspective prooved many times to open our eyes on true facts (Brian years before the BBs, Remember the Zoo....).