Darian and SMiLE

[Andrew G. Doe]

years ago, the Correct Perspective, in Beach Boys Australia fanzine, wrote that Brian mixed the tapes in late may1967. What do you think of that Andrew?
the Correct Perspective prooved many times to open our eyes on true facts (Brian years before the BBs, Remember the Zoo....).

I think someone's perspective was a tad skewed. 

[SloopJohnB]

Surfin' Safari is THE definitive Surfin Safari. Brian Wilson's SMiLE is THE definitive SMiLE. Why? Because Brian said that was the finished work....the artist and composer said that his Teenage Symphony to God was finally finished/completed in 2004.

You are claiming it is not definitive because the final album was not released close enough to the date of the project's genesis and also because the original musicians were not used....but I really don't see how this matters. It's like saying that, hypotheticaly, Da Vinci's Mona Lisa is not definitive because he started it, shelved it, and came back to it with different paints on his palette at a later date.

It doesn't matter what colors Brian used on his palette as long as he is happy with those colors.

You have a problem with analogies. The correct one would be: Da Vinci carefully chose the canvas, the paints and the brushes, and started painting. He almost reached completion but never really finished it. People saw parts of this unfinished painting, but not in its entirety, as Da Vinci didn't finish it and wasn't even really sure of how to complete it - he would have needed more time. After abandoning his work-in-progress, Da Vinci became addicted to drugs and evolved into quite a different person.

Then, 30 years later, a friend who loved the parts he had seen tells him it'd be nice to remake those parts and stick them together, in order to be able to show a "finished product". They pick a canvas, some paints, some brushes, that are all different from the original ones, partly because the old brushes aren't made anymore, partly because the new brushes wouldn't work on an old canvas, partly because these new paints are just slightly inferior but much more convenient. Then, they reproduce some parts that people have seen, and only those, and they stick them together. The parts that were missing are nowhere to be seen, because they haven't been able to reproduce them, as they had either been lost or never painted in the first place.

In the end, it's a good painting, but it's not what it would have been had Da Vinci finished it earlier, because he and his friend only took pieces that were available.

Which is what I was saying earlier. Let me quote myself -

BWPS can be described as rerecordings of what was previously recorded, and thus known. Who are we to say that Brian wouldn't have included pieces unknown to us (and to him!), had he been able to finish Smile in 1967?

BWPS is a mix-and-match of what was available in the vaults. Maybe some sections have been recorded and were supposed to be used on the final version, but have disappeared. Maybe some other sections were still in Brian's mind when the project was shelved.



IN PICTURES, just to be clear:

1) This is the full original painting, with the parts that people had been able to see. The blanks are parts that were either lost or that simply had not been completed. Basically, it's Smile, 1966/1967.




2) This is the full recreation. As you can see, some parts that people knew have been ditched, but only parts that were known have been used again. The colors are slightly different, the shapes are very close but no cigar, a large part of what the original painting would have been is gone, but it's still identifiable as "Mona Lisa", it's still good, and more importantly, it's presented as a "finished painting". This is BWPS. Not Smile.

[onkster]

Darian is wayyyy beyond fanboy/nerd. He's too good to be reduced to that.

I'm totally fine with BWPS--it flows. Yes, it takes chunks that, when viewed on their own in unedited form, a lot of people didn't get, and puts them in a framework that absolutely works. Maybe not absolutely perfect, maybe not with The Elements in 1-2-3-4 order as some demanding fanboys insist it must be, but God, close enough to perfect for me. This project could have gone way wrong--imagine if it had been completed in, say, the late 70s, when just about every old rock star got everything wrong, wrong, wrong. I don't recall any fanboy coming up with that perfect link of 'Wonderful' into 'Look/Song for Children'. There have been some interesting fan edits, yes (I'm talkin' 'bout you, DJ Mic Luv, and a couple others) but nothing as good as BWPS.

SMiLE is not a work set in stone. Was Tommy? Was Dark Side of the Moon? Was Sgt. Pepper, even? Village Green, with 2 different track lineups? No. These evolved and changed and had iterations that shifted our perceptions of them. Some better, some worse, but generally, all stimulating. SMiLE is another one--the best of them, at least in my own heart.

SMiLE exists, and will continue to exist, and will likely continue to evolve even after the box set, because of the love people have for it. And that love happened because, quite simply, SMiLE is great enough to merit it. (I don't see any obsessive BB bulletin boards based around 'Adult Child'.)

SMiLE is an album that the Brian hath made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.

[Jon Stebbins]

I think the notion that BWPS is Smile because Brian says it is... might be a precarious place to make your stand. Do you think its a sure thing once the Smile sessions box is out and being promoted that Brian is going to be saying that BWPS is Smile and the box is not? I would not make that bet. Maybe if his wife tells him to, but eventually there will be an interview away from the control and he'll say what's on his mind at that moment and it could be ANYTHING. How about I burned the Smile tapes. Or Smile will never come out because its not good music. Relying on the "because Brian said" criteria is very shaky ground to base any argument on.

[Andrew G. Doe]

SMiLE is not a work set in stone. Was Tommy? Was Dark Side of the Moon? Was Sgt. Pepper, even?

Yes: to the best of my knowledge, The Floyd & The Beatles never revised those two albums after release. As for Tommy, granted there was the live version, and the movie, but the album is canonical.

[Micha]

Yes it has completed passages and a nicely realized assembly of the ideas...but it is not an original work.

Not an original work? Ask the composer Brian Wilson if he thinks so.

It's not as well produced as the 1966/67 recording attempt, but it is an original work.

Since SMiLE ('67) was never completed or released, while BWPS was, why is it so hard for people to comprehend BWPS as the final product with the SMiLE sessions serving as the blueprint (rather than BWPS being merely a "cover" of the SMiLE material)?

With you there.

BWPS is the only Smile.

The only finished one. Unless they did find a tape with all the songs completed...

Actually, I guess you must believe that the Smile Sessions box is going to be comprised exclusively of sessions from BWPS, since the original sessions are, according to you, non-Smile.

Although this wasn't directed at me, I'd like to say that to me the old sessions aren't "non-SMiLE", they're sessions for SMiLE that didn't get finished. In 2004 it was started from scratch, with sonically mostly inferior result, but the composition on BWPS is SMiLE.

Do you think its a sure thing once the Smile sessions box is out and being promoted that Brian is going to be saying that BWPS is Smile and the box is not?

No. They're both SMiLE. The box consists of great sounding unfinished recordings, BWPS is a finished recording that doesn't sound as good, but it's complete, it is a whole.

[Jon Stebbins]

I think you are going to find a Brian approved disc in the box that is not unfinished...so what then?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Yes it has completed passages and a nicely realized assembly of the ideas...but it is not an original work.

Not an original work? Ask the composer Brian Wilson if he thinks so.

It's not as well produced as the 1966/67 recording attempt, but it is an original work.

Remind me again, exactly how much of BWPS was written in 2003 ? 

[Micha]

Yes: to the best of my knowledge, The Floyd & The Beatles never revised those two albums after release.

Yes, but with BWPS, SMiLE did not get "revised", it got "done".

I think you are going to find a Brian approved disc in the box that is not unfinished...so what then?

As not having listened to it and not having read how Brian sees it - I don't now! I'll tell you when I have. 

[Micha]

Yes it has completed passages and a nicely realized assembly of the ideas...but it is not an original work.

Not an original work? Ask the composer Brian Wilson if he thinks so.

It's not as well produced as the 1966/67 recording attempt, but it is an original work.

Remind me again, exactly how much of BWPS was written in 2003 ? 

Seems like we have different definitions of the term "original work". BWPS is Brian's original work, no matter when or how he wrote it.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Yes it has completed passages and a nicely realized assembly of the ideas...but it is not an original work.

Not an original work? Ask the composer Brian Wilson if he thinks so.

It's not as well produced as the 1966/67 recording attempt, but it is an original work.

Remind me again, exactly how much of BWPS was written in 2003 ? 

Seems like we have different definitions of the term "original work". BWPS is Brian's original work, no matter when or how he wrote it.

"Good Vibrations" - cover of previously released song
"Heroes & Villains" - cover of previously released song
"Cabin Essence" - cover of previously released song
"Wonderful" - cover of previously released song
"Wind Chimes" - cover of previously released song
"Surf's Up" - cover of previously released song
"Rock Plymouth Roll" - cover of previously released song with period lyric
"Vegetables" - cover of previously released song
"Prayer" - cover of previously released song
"Fire" - cover of (partly)previously released song
"Workshop" - cover of previously released song
"Barnyard" - cover of previously released song
"I'm In Great Shape" - cover of previously released song

That's 13 out of the 21 BWPS titles for which the only original thing is the recording.

[Roger Ryan]

... I don't recall any fanboy coming up with that perfect link of 'Wonderful' into 'Look/Song for Children'....

Well...I did in a version I put together in late '99 because it seemed like a good way to get out of "Wonderful" which doesn't have a very satisfying ending. I also transitioned "Our Prayer" into "Heroes & Villains" by using "Gee" and the same "How I love my girl" segment as appears on BWPS. A musician friend of mine insists to this day that he passed along a copy of my SMiLE edit to Darian sometime in 2001. Did my sequencing have any influence on BWPS? Who knows. As far as I'm concerned, I'm pleased that a couple of my aesthetic choices aligned with what Brian and Darian decided to settle upon...and, as onkster states, they went way beyond what any mere fan had done or could do.

As I said a few posts ago, it's all SMiLE...and it's nice to have so much of it (and hopefully more real soon).

[Wirestone]

But that's the difference. Smile had a particular set of musicians on tape, and people know the music that's on these tapes. People thus associate this music with the name of Smile. Smile is what happened in 1966/1967.

Yes, but also no. Smile is also a group of songs that exist whenever they're performed. It is a composed group of songs and arrangements. Even at the time, Brian recorded different interpretations of the songs, looking for just the right take. (I mean, how many "Wonderful"s are there? Yet they are all "Wonderful," despite being different recordings.)

So he finally recorded an interpretation that he liked. It was just decades after the fact.

[Sam_BFC]

"Good Vibrations" - cover of previously released song
"Heroes & Villains" - cover of previously released song
"Cabin Essence" - cover of previously released song
"Wonderful" - cover of previously released song
"Wind Chimes" - cover of previously released song
"Surf's Up" - cover of previously released song
"Rock Plymouth Roll" - cover of previously released song with period lyric
"Vegetables" - cover of previously released song
"Prayer" - cover of previously released song
"Fire" - cover of (partly)previously released song
"Workshop" - cover of previously released song
"Barnyard" - cover of previously released song
"I'm In Great Shape" - cover of previously released song

Can they really be described as merely 'covers of previously released songs'? 

Does this mean Help Me Rhonda is a mere 'cover' of the previously released Help Me Ronda and thus not the definitive version

[Micha]

"Good Vibrations" - cover of previously released song
"Heroes & Villains" - cover of previously released song
"Cabin Essence" - cover of previously released song
"Wonderful" - cover of previously released song
"Wind Chimes" - cover of previously released song
"Surf's Up" - cover of previously released song
"Rock Plymouth Roll" - cover of previously released song with period lyric
"Vegetables" - cover of previously released song
"Prayer" - cover of previously released song
"Fire" - cover of (partly)previously released song
"Workshop" - cover of previously released song
"Barnyard" - cover of previously released song
"I'm In Great Shape" - cover of previously released song

No matter how many of these songs were previously recorded and/or released. They're all written by Brian Wilson (many of them with lyrics by VDP). They are assembled (brought in a running order) and in some cases completed by Brian Wilson (some of them again completed with lyrics by VDP). They are recorded by Brian Wilson. So: BWPS is an original work by Brian Wilson.

It's like saying that "Faust" was not an original work by Goethe, just because it consisted of assembled and rewritten fragments he wrote 38 years ago, and had in fact been released in their fragmentary form.

Another example you might relate better to: Is the single record version of "Help Me, Rhonda" not an original work by Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys because it had already been released with slightly different lyrics and spelling? Was "Surfer Girl" not an original work because they had recorded it earlier? Were those "just" "cover versions"?

Is Pet Sounds an original work even if it doesn't have "Hang On To Your Ego" and a version of "Caroline, No" not in the original speed on it?

[37!ws]

And FWIW, two of those "previously released songs" were only released in demo form, and it wasn't even a demo to be used as a recording guide..."Workshop" wasn't released before, either -- just the tool overdubs.

[Micha]

Does this mean Help Me Rhonda is a mere 'cover' of the previously released Help Me Ronda and thus not the definitive version

You beat me to it.   I should type faster.

[drbeachboy]

Definitive doesn't always have to mean first. Look at I Can Hear Music as an example. Personally, in some ways I see BWPS in the same eye as I see Do It Again being re-recorded back in July. BWPS is a "cover" for a new presentation of the work.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Does this mean Help Me Rhonda is a mere 'cover' of the previously released Help Me Ronda and thus not the definitive version

No - because "R(h)onda" II was recorded less than 50 days after the first version by someone who was, essentially, exactly the same person and who's decision it was to revise it. Not over 35 years later by someone who was, to all intents and purposes, a completely different person and had to be persuaded that this was a good idea.

[Andrew G. Doe]

And FWIW, two of those "previously released songs" were only released in demo form, and it wasn't even a demo to be used as a recording guide..."Workshop" wasn't released before, either -- just the tool overdubs.

OK... Ten and  a half songs out of 21. 

[Alex]

years ago, the Correct Perspective, in Beach Boys Australia fanzine, wrote that Brian mixed the tapes in late may1967. What do you think of that Andrew?
the Correct Perspective prooved many times to open our eyes on true facts (Brian years before the BBs, Remember the Zoo....).

I think someone's perspective was a tad skewed. 

Wasn't The Correct Perspective the one who made up the Remember the Zoo hoax?

[Andrew G. Doe]

years ago, the Correct Perspective, in Beach Boys Australia fanzine, wrote that Brian mixed the tapes in late may1967. What do you think of that Andrew?
the Correct Perspective prooved many times to open our eyes on true facts (Brian years before the BBs, Remember the Zoo....).

I think someone's perspective was a tad skewed. 

Wasn't The Correct Perspective the one who made up the Remember the Zoo hoax?

Amongst others. 

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

SMiLE is not a work set in stone. Was Tommy? Was Dark Side of the Moon? Was Sgt. Pepper, even? Village Green, with 2 different track lineups? No. These evolved and changed and had iterations that shifted our perceptions of them. Some better, some worse, but generally, all stimulating. SMiLE is another one--the best of them, at least in my own heart.

Honestly, i'd say was LIFEHOUSE set in stone, because in my opinion Lifehouse is SMiLE's "Child"

[Micha]

No - because "R(h)onda" II was recorded less than 50 days after the first version by someone who was, essentially, exactly the same person and who's decision it was to revise it. Not over 35 years later by someone who was, to all intents and purposes, a completely different person and had to be persuaded that this was a good idea.

I don't follow your reasoning/rationale/argument. (Those are the three words my dictionary offers for the German expression "Argumentation", I don't know which one is the right translation.)

[Wirestone]

Also, let's all admit that the elephant in the room here is Brian's mental illness. One of the reason the 66-67 stuff is revered is simply because Brian was absolutely in control of it -- perhaps the last time in his career we know for sure that to be the case. A lot of folks simply feel that Brian is not the same man today as he was then and therefore doesn't have the same creative authority to decide how his work is presented. Some feel (as stated in some recent Disney album threads) that he should not perform these days, period.

My personal feelings aside, this significantly complicates all arguments on this subject. If Brian was still as together as Neil Young, let's say, or Van Morrison or McCartney, the debate would be entirely different.