Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread!

[Roger Ryan]

Does anyone know exactly what happened to the "Wind Section"? I've heard it was a piano piece, and that it was lost for some reason or another.

Interesting one, that: the only source for that was Brian, as quoted in the Byron Preiss book. Some folk feel it's a reasonable description of a track that mutated into "Country Air" but honestly, no-one knows for sure.

Something in my gut tells me that Brian was just spouting out a much needed song description, to keep the "powers that be" temorarily satisfied, to buy him more time. I don't think that such a song actually existed. Or course, I'm just thinking out loud, and have no basis for anything that I have just said.  

But Brian's quote about what the "Wind Section" was came years after SMiLE collapsed (1976?). For whatever Brian intended THE ELEMENTS to be, before or after the fact, it was identified as "Fire" (or "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow") only during the actual SMiLE sessions. The Preiss quote could simply be a made-up answer...or a reference to what became "Country Air" as AGD has suggested...or a comment regarding the original ending of "Wind Chimes". The vagueness as to what THE ELEMENTS actually was extends to Frank Holmes' illustration for "Vega-Tables (The Elements)" as well...and to BWPS for that matter, although I like how the third movement has the four elements present without emphasizing the fact.

[gsmile]

Did Johnny Carson ever hear his tribute song?  If so, what was his reaction?  One certainly can't fault it's loving praise for Johnny; but pitted against dark, slippery and menacing synth stabs...surely he must have been scratching his head.  Perhaps Brian thought a tribute song would get the Boys on Carson to promote the record.  Not too strange an idea, considering his practical joker side.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Did Johnny Carson ever hear his tribute song?  If so, what was his reaction?  One certainly can't fault it's loving praise for Johnny; but pitted against dark, slippery and menacing synth stabs...surely he must have been scratching his head.  Perhaps Brian thought a tribute song would get the Boys on Carson to promote the record.  Not too strange an idea, considering his practical joker side.

I recall reading he did, soon after it was released.

[gsmile]

I recall reading he did, soon after it was released.

Cool!  I wonder if he worked it into a joke on the show?

[hypehat]

There's a track on UM18 (the Smiley Smile one) which is Brian playing a very slow, pretty piece on a harpsichord with delay on it - I always suspected that might have been the 'piano piece' for Wind.

[Zack]

Did Johnny Carson ever hear his tribute song?  If so, what was his reaction?  One certainly can't fault it's loving praise for Johnny; but pitted against dark, slippery and menacing synth stabs...surely he must have been scratching his head.  Perhaps Brian thought a tribute song would get the Boys on Carson to promote the record.  Not too strange an idea, considering his practical joker side.

I think he said "It's not exactly art, is it?"

[Ganz Allein]

I recall reading he did, soon after it was released.

Cool!  I wonder if he worked it into a joke on the show?

He said, "You know, yesterday I just listened to that new Beach Boys album, 'Love You," and heard that song, 'Johnny Carson,' that they wrote about me. That was some wild, weird stuff!" And then Ed McMahon guffawed and exclaimed, "You are correct, sir!" 

[gsmile]

Thanks to AGD, Zack and Ganz for their replies to my question.  I'm sure Johnny and Ed had a good laugh over the song.  To those who were around for this period of the group (I was born in 82, ha), was the common perception of the Beach Boys as a vocal-based surf group that had mutated into weird Wilsonian art pop?  Or had "Endless Summer" already cemented them as a "oldies but moldies" group?

[Stegibo]

Has Mike done at least one show without a hat in the last 30 years?

[Jay]

*deleted*

[Myk Luhv]

I'm a jerk and want to open this age-old can of worms again: To what extent can Brian Wilson read/write music? I don't know the terms since I know no music theory, but can he write proper, total notation (on a staff with note symbols and whatever) or just chord changes and the rest is "felt out" as it's being recorded? Obviously there are enough pictures of him looking very intently at what are ostensibly music sheets and I don't think they'd go through all that effort -- especially not over the decades -- to retain such an image if he can't actually read/write music significantly? Then again, if he could read/write music wouldn't he be able to score a film, which he said recently he couldn't do? (Unless, of course, that is because he's simply not interested in doing it!)

[Steve Mayo]

i had an interview of the group from late 1970. in it brian talked about what he wanted to do next..and that was to score films. 'course i don't know how serious he was in that interview.... 

[Runaways]

well all the wrecking crew said Brian had music written out for them.   I'm pretty sure he wrote and can read music well.  and i seriously think Brian would have gone on to score films if he hadn't gone under. 

i think what he said recently is more "i wouldn't know how to score a film", not write music.  and he prob couldn't be bothered to study films and see proper scoring. 

i wish he did.

[The Heartical Don]

well all the wrecking crew said Brian had music written out for them.   I'm pretty sure he wrote and can read music well.  and i seriously think Brian would have gone on to score films if he hadn't gone under. 

i think what he said recently is more "i wouldn't know how to score a film", not write music.  and he prob couldn't be bothered to study films and see proper scoring. 

i wish he did.

I seem to recall now that he actually could read and write music well, but had an odd way of drawing the notes themselves on paper. Whether he actuall plays 'a prima vista' (immediately and synchronous to reading it), I don't know.

[Wirestone]

I think he can score to an extent, but not especially quickly or naturally. That kind of skill -- actual pen-and-paper arranging -- takes some training. Brian didn't pursue that kind of education. I think if he wanted a particular part he could write it out, but it was more common for him to sketch out the chord changes on staff paper for the musicians. He would then sing/play particular parts as the band learned on the fly.

And that's what he still does. In footage from the Christmas album, you can see the band has staff paper on which Brian has written out basic chord changes. For actual string parts, he's much more likely to have someone else write it out. Dick Reynolds in the 60s or Paul Mertens in the 00s.

[Andrew G. Doe]

David Sandler recalls paying a visit to Brian's house in the early 70s and having a conversation with him while he was writing out horn charts for an upcoming session.

And, of course, he took music in high school, so yes, he can read and write notation.

[Mike's Beard]

"Good Time" was it not?

[Wirestone]

Important distinction here: There is a difference between being able to read and notate music -- which there is no question Brian is able to do  -- and actually arranging, i.e. writing out precisely notated parts for each different instrument in an orchestral ensemble. Gershwin himself wasn't able to do it quickly enough for Rhapsody in Blue, which is why his two-piano part score was arranged for orchestra by Ferde Grofe. That's something learned in conservatory, or through extensive private study. Brian probably has the creative ability to do that, and some of the Pet Sounds sessions come close, but he hasn't taken it all the way.

[Myk Luhv]

Yeah, that sort of distinction is what I was trying to get at but failing to formulate properly because I know next to nothing about music theory. This is why I thought it was odd he said he couldn't score a film, because I figured he does clearly know how to write and read musical notation. Thanks! The difference, then, is that he is unable to arrange for orchestral ensembles but is competent enough to arrange for pop music -- because the latter is not as complex as the former by definition? (By 'complex' I mean something like the way the musical instruments interact with each other and form a compositional, cogent whole, rather than sectional bits of melody and harmony and so forth.) I'm reaching here because I don't think I have the language to speak about this intelligently but want to learn more, haha. Sorry!

[Wirestone]

That's about right. A modern symphony orchestra has something like 20 different instrument groups. That means an orchestrator has to keep track of a lot of different things -- and sometimes sections of those instruments will play different parts.

In contrast, a Beach Boys record would have drums, bass, keyboard, guitar, percussion and perhaps a horn section. Brian would write on the piano, so by definition his piano demo would have the seeds of the drum part (the piano is a percussive instrument, after all), the bass (his left-hand parts pretty much translate exactly) and the keyboard part. So he could alter those and make them more complex, but they were very close to how he wrote the song.

He might then have to come up with some guitar parts, and if he needed to notate something for a small section of horns, he had the raw knowledge and ability to do that. And yes, he would add multiple keyboards or basses, but they're all not playing totally independent parts. Brian was interested in the combined sound they made.

Now, the key to this all is that Brian would overlay these tracks with four-part vocal harmony, which he would also arrange. So in terms of the sheer number of parts, he certainly could approach 20 in some of his more complex tracks. But his vocal parts have -- as far as I know -- never been notated.

In a way, it's too bad Brian never got this kind of education in his 20s. It may have made expressing his musical ideas quicker and easier, and he wouldn't have had to turn to people like Mertens et. al for the larger arrangements. But it's pretty incredible he was able to do what he did. (And actually fairly unusual for pop music -- there's a reason people called him a genius.)

Postscript -- the other difference is scope. A film score or symphonic piece is a sustained, lengthy piece of music that involves development, variations, multiple themes, etc. Brian has mainly worked in short forms, with the exception of Smile (which is still largely stitched from tiny pieces). He may feel like the sustained musical development is something he can't do.

[the captain]

My guess is that Brian can read and write music at the level to which he was trained: that is, not with any degree of expertise. Sufficient to plow through written music (I can't see him as a sight reader, though that's purely speculatory) or to eventually get it down on paper in an understandable fashion. But scoring? Doubtful. You're constantly transcribing into different keys, as different instruments are just that (alto saxophone sounds a G on what is a Bb on piano, for example). It would have been most likely and still in tune with what I've read and heard that Brian would scribble down single-line ideas--that is, one instrument's part at a time--for players, likely for piano, and then for the accomplished studio musicians to transcribe on sight. This was by no means uncommon: the very idea of a "lead sheet" (common in jazz and certain other non-classical music) is just that.

[TdHabib]

One of the more amazing things is that Brian sang the string parts to the session players on "Don't Talk" and the arrangement is what you hear. It's so gorgeous.

[Myk Luhv]

Thanks a lot, Wirestone. Obviously I need to learn me some music theory, heh. I'm glad my vague meanders were so imprecise that they ended up being generally correct too!

[the captain]

Actually, while I agree thanks are (always!) in order to Wirestone, music theory wouldn't help with what he said. That's more along the lines of general music or music appreciation. But those are also great courses to take. (Theory is a whole different--and FUN--animal.)

[Chris Brown]

One of the more amazing things is that Brian sang the string parts to the session players on "Don't Talk" and the arrangement is what you hear. It's so gorgeous.

Indeed that is quite amazing what Brian was able to do as an arranger without any formal training.  The string parts in "Don't Talk" are exquisite, so well-done that even Tony Asher was impressed (and he had been working with Brian each day writing Pet Sounds). 

Had Brian stayed healthy and had the inclination, I have no doubt that he could have scored films.  Maybe not in the typical sense, but with his own creative flow - something that David Anderle alluded to in his post-Smile interview with Paul Williams.  Brian had the talent and the creativity to do whatever he wanted musically, provided he actually wanted to do it and didn't quickly lose interest. 

Even today, I think he could still do more serious arranging without any assistance if he wanted to...thing is, he's 68 years old, and has put in more than a lifetime's worth of musical work.  I can't imagine he wants to spend his remaining years writing out intricate string and horn parts.  He's lucky enough to have people around him who will take his suggestions and do the heavy lifting on his behalf.