Mike the dominant creative force when it came to conceptual content?

[rab2591]

Misinformation? Asher was heavily involved in that era.  No one is suggesting otherwise.  But, that material had to be digested by the live audiences and Asher wasn't the one at whom tomatoes would be tossed if an audience thought a song or performance was crap.  And who knew what would "work" with various crowds.  That would be Mike who was on the front lines in that era.  It is almost like a political speech writer who gives a politician or candidate a speech that the candidate knows isn't going to work with a certain constituency.  It could be a good speech, but won't garner a single vote.  

I never said anyone was claiming that Asher wasn't heavily involved in that era. Just saying that Brian (and possibly Asher) deserves credit for the concept of Good Vibrations, not Mike. And, yet again, I'm not disputing that Mike was a better man for the job regarding lyrics. His lyrics were indeed FAR better (lightyears better), and that the song went to #1 is a testament to his brilliance at songwriting. But again, the concept didn't deviate much from what Asher had already written prior. So Mike getting credit for the concept is ridiculous.

[rab2591]

Funny, because the concept was already created before the backing track was complete and finalized...hence why we have Tony Asher lyrics (about good vibrations/feelings between boys and girls) sung over an early version of the track...and though Mike created FAR more beautiful lyrics, the concept was already there. This should be common knowledge to mostly everyone on this board.

Cam, is there anything you won't defend about Mike?

Yeah, Wrinkles.

Let's assume that the Brian only vocal of GV proves Mike had any knowledge of Asher's lyrics and Mike is wrong when he thinks he was given the completed instrumental track and he came up with a boy-girl concept (or boy-dog angle, whichever) and that the concept of Surfin' was Dennis'. That leaves a whole lot of songs with potentially Mike's lyrical concepts, a potentially "dominate" amount of songs from their relationship even.

Potentially. But given that Brian proved he was a powerhouse of great ideas outside of his relationship with Mike, it would seem odd to me that Mike would be the dominant provider of conceptual ideas when they worked together. Given that most of Today! was driven by Brian's introspective ideas, it would seem to me that it in terms of concept, credit spanning the duration of their creative relationship in those early years was more equal than dominant from either party.

[Cam Mott]

Funny, because the concept was already created before the backing track was complete and finalized...hence why we have Tony Asher lyrics (about good vibrations/feelings between boys and girls) sung over an early version of the track...and though Mike created FAR more beautiful lyrics, the concept was already there. This should be common knowledge to mostly everyone on this board.

Cam, is there anything you won't defend about Mike?

Yeah, Wrinkles.

Let's assume that the Brian only vocal of GV proves Mike had any knowledge of Asher's lyrics and Mike is wrong when he thinks he was given the completed instrumental track and he came up with a boy-girl concept (or boy-dog angle, whichever) and that the concept of Surfin' was Dennis'. That leaves a whole lot of songs with potentially Mike's lyrical concepts, a potentially "dominate" amount of songs from their relationship even.

Potentially. But given that Brian proved he was a powerhouse of great ideas outside of his relationship with Mike, it would seem odd to me that Mike would be the dominant provider of conceptual ideas when they worked together. Given that most of Today! was driven by Brian's introspective ideas, it would seem to me that it in terms of concept, credit spanning the duration of their creative relationship in those early years was more equal than dominant from either party.

Or does it show that other collaborators were also dominant lyrically and conceptually in their songwriting relationships with Brian? I'm not arguing that Brian didn't also have great concepts, but imo no one has shown that Mike is wrong or even over-stating about his claim for his songwriting relationship with Brian.

Mike is co-author of like 9 out of 12 songs on Today!, how is it we know they are mainly Brian's concepts?

[SMiLE Brian]

Rab is right 100%, its Mike taking his actual (important) role and making it look bigger than it is. He is just a sad and insecure man at this point trying to look important to random small town newspapers.

[filledeplage]

Misinformation? Asher was heavily involved in that era.  No one is suggesting otherwise.  But, that material had to be digested by the live audiences and Asher wasn't the one at whom tomatoes would be tossed if an audience thought a song or performance was crap.  And who knew what would "work" with various crowds.  That would be Mike who was on the front lines in that era.  It is almost like a political speech writer who gives a politician or candidate a speech that the candidate knows isn't going to work with a certain constituency.  It could be a good speech, but won't garner a single vote.  

I never said anyone was claiming that Asher wasn't heavily involved in that era. Just saying that Brian (and possibly Asher) deserves credit for the concept of Good Vibrations, not Mike. And, yet again, I'm not disputing that Mike was a better man for the job regarding lyrics. His lyrics were indeed FAR better (lightyears better), and that the song went to #1 is a testament to his brilliance at songwriting. But again, the concept didn't deviate much from what Asher had already written prior. So Mike getting credit for the concept is ridiculous.

Rab2591 - first, please respond outside my response.  If it is re-quoted, it appears as though I wrote that. You can make your point outside "my space."  

Second, what is the purpose of re-writing history?  Whether the theme of "good vibrations" was bantered about in whatever context, by whichever people, is largely irrelevant now.  The single came out in 1966.  And, it wasn't Asher's version.  It is a fait accompli, nearly 50 years ago.  Tony's lyrics for God Only Knows are fully credited on the flip of the 45
rpm of Wouldn't It Be Nice.  It is how the ball bounces.  

And, while we might think they are all brilliant, I would guess that some is concept, whether melody or lyrical, coupled with hard work.  And lots of trial and error. This morning, I watched some '09 Christmas Brian vocal sessions, and it appears that they (Brian's band) worked and reworked phrasing, sections and parts.  

And, in some other Brian interview, he talked about being so "next to something" that they all had to get away and "chuck it (Smile) for awhile."  It is subtitled in French.  And it seems to be clipped from An American Band.

[filledeplage]

Rab is right 100%, its Mike taking his actual (important) role and making it look bigger than it is. He is just a sad and insecure man at this point trying to look important to random small town newspapers.

And you know that how?

[rab2591]

Funny, because the concept was already created before the backing track was complete and finalized...hence why we have Tony Asher lyrics (about good vibrations/feelings between boys and girls) sung over an early version of the track...and though Mike created FAR more beautiful lyrics, the concept was already there. This should be common knowledge to mostly everyone on this board.

Cam, is there anything you won't defend about Mike?

Yeah, Wrinkles.

Let's assume that the Brian only vocal of GV proves Mike had any knowledge of Asher's lyrics and Mike is wrong when he thinks he was given the completed instrumental track and he came up with a boy-girl concept (or boy-dog angle, whichever) and that the concept of Surfin' was Dennis'. That leaves a whole lot of songs with potentially Mike's lyrical concepts, a potentially "dominate" amount of songs from their relationship even.

Potentially. But given that Brian proved he was a powerhouse of great ideas outside of his relationship with Mike, it would seem odd to me that Mike would be the dominant provider of conceptual ideas when they worked together. Given that most of Today! was driven by Brian's introspective ideas, it would seem to me that it in terms of concept, credit spanning the duration of their creative relationship in those early years was more equal than dominant from either party.

Or does it show that other collaborators were also dominant lyrically and conceptually in their songwriting relationships with Brian? I'm not arguing that Brian didn't also have great concepts, but imo no one has shown that Mike is wrong or even over-stating about his claim for his songwriting relationship with Brian.

Mike is co-author of like 9 out of 12 songs on Today!, how is it we know they are mainly Brian's concepts?

Given what we know about Brian's own songwriting and conception of ideas (I Get Around, Good Vibrations, Pet Sounds material), it isn't too hard to think that Brian brought a lot to the table regarding creative direction.

[rab2591]

Misinformation? Asher was heavily involved in that era.  No one is suggesting otherwise.  But, that material had to be digested by the live audiences and Asher wasn't the one at whom tomatoes would be tossed if an audience thought a song or performance was crap.  And who knew what would "work" with various crowds.  That would be Mike who was on the front lines in that era.  It is almost like a political speech writer who gives a politician or candidate a speech that the candidate knows isn't going to work with a certain constituency.  It could be a good speech, but won't garner a single vote.  

I never said anyone was claiming that Asher wasn't heavily involved in that era. Just saying that Brian (and possibly Asher) deserves credit for the concept of Good Vibrations, not Mike. And, yet again, I'm not disputing that Mike was a better man for the job regarding lyrics. His lyrics were indeed FAR better (lightyears better), and that the song went to #1 is a testament to his brilliance at songwriting. But again, the concept didn't deviate much from what Asher had already written prior. So Mike getting credit for the concept is ridiculous.

Rab2591 - first, please respond outside my response.  If it is re-quoted, it appears as though I wrote that. You can make your point outside "my space."  

Second, what is the purpose of re-writing history?  Whether the theme of "good vibrations" was bantered about in whatever context, by whichever people, is largely irrelevant now.  The single came out in 1966.  And, it wasn't Asher's version.  It is a fait accompli, nearly 50 years ago.  Tony's lyrics for God Only Knows are fully credited on the flip of the 45
rpm of Wouldn't It Be Nice.  It is how the ball bounces.  

And, while we might think they are all brilliant, I would guess that some is concept, whether melody or lyrical, coupled with hard work.  And lots of trial and error. This morning, I watched some '09 Christmas Brian vocal sessions, and it appears that they (Brian's band) worked and reworked phrasing, sections and parts.  

And, in some other Brian interview, he talked about being so "next to something" that they all had to get away and "chuck it (Smile) for awhile."  It is subtitled in French.  And it seems to be clipped from An American Band.

According to what I'm seeing I did respond outside of your response box. But perhaps I'm missing something.

Secondly, I'm not claiming anyone is rewriting history, just getting their facts wrong. It may be irrelevant to you, but it's mildly annoying to see Mike get credit for something he didn't do. Not sure why bringing it up is an unreasonable reaction on my part.

[filledeplage]

Misinformation? Asher was heavily involved in that era.  No one is suggesting otherwise.  But, that material had to be digested by the live audiences and Asher wasn't the one at whom tomatoes would be tossed if an audience thought a song or performance was crap.  And who knew what would "work" with various crowds.  That would be Mike who was on the front lines in that era.  It is almost like a political speech writer who gives a politician or candidate a speech that the candidate knows isn't going to work with a certain constituency.  It could be a good speech, but won't garner a single vote.  

I never said anyone was claiming that Asher wasn't heavily involved in that era. Just saying that Brian (and possibly Asher) deserves credit for the concept of Good Vibrations, not Mike. And, yet again, I'm not disputing that Mike was a better man for the job regarding lyrics. His lyrics were indeed FAR better (lightyears better), and that the song went to #1 is a testament to his brilliance at songwriting. But again, the concept didn't deviate much from what Asher had already written prior. So Mike getting credit for the concept is ridiculous.

Rab2591 - first, please respond outside my response.  If it is re-quoted, it appears as though I wrote that. You can make your point outside "my space."  

Second, what is the purpose of re-writing history?  Whether the theme of "good vibrations" was bantered about in whatever context, by whichever people, is largely irrelevant now.  The single came out in 1966.  And, it wasn't Asher's version.  It is a fait accompli, nearly 50 years ago.  Tony's lyrics for God Only Knows are fully credited on the flip of the 45
rpm of Wouldn't It Be Nice.  It is how the ball bounces.  

And, while we might think they are all brilliant, I would guess that some is concept, whether melody or lyrical, coupled with hard work.  And lots of trial and error. This morning, I watched some '09 Christmas Brian vocal sessions, and it appears that they (Brian's band) worked and reworked phrasing, sections and parts.  

And, in some other Brian interview, he talked about being so "next to something" that they all had to get away and "chuck it (Smile) for awhile."  It is subtitled in French.  And it seems to be clipped from An American Band.

According to what I'm seeing I did respond outside of your response box. But perhaps I'm missing something.

Secondly, I'm not claiming anyone is rewriting history, just getting their facts wrong. It may be irrelevant to you, but it's mildly annoying to see Mike get credit for something he didn't do. Not sure why bringing it up is an unreasonable reaction on my part.

My bad. I mean the yellow screaming highlighting.

[filledeplage]

Misinformation? Asher was heavily involved in that era.  No one is suggesting otherwise.  But, that material had to be digested by the live audiences and Asher wasn't the one at whom tomatoes would be tossed if an audience thought a song or performance was crap.  And who knew what would "work" with various crowds.  That would be Mike who was on the front lines in that era.  It is almost like a political speech writer who gives a politician or candidate a speech that the candidate knows isn't going to work with a certain constituency.  It could be a good speech, but won't garner a single vote.  

I never said anyone was claiming that Asher wasn't heavily involved in that era. Just saying that Brian (and possibly Asher) deserves credit for the concept of Good Vibrations, not Mike. And, yet again, I'm not disputing that Mike was a better man for the job regarding lyrics. His lyrics were indeed FAR better (lightyears better), and that the song went to #1 is a testament to his brilliance at songwriting. But again, the concept didn't deviate much from what Asher had already written prior. So Mike getting credit for the concept is ridiculous.

Rab2591 - first, please respond outside my response.  If it is re-quoted, it appears as though I wrote that. You can make your point outside "my space."  

Second, what is the purpose of re-writing history?  Whether the theme of "good vibrations" was bantered about in whatever context, by whichever people, is largely irrelevant now.  The single came out in 1966.  And, it wasn't Asher's version.  It is a fait accompli, nearly 50 years ago.  Tony's lyrics for God Only Knows are fully credited on the flip of the 45
rpm of Wouldn't It Be Nice.  It is how the ball bounces.  

And, while we might think they are all brilliant, I would guess that some is concept, whether melody or lyrical, coupled with hard work.  And lots of trial and error. This morning, I watched some '09 Christmas Brian vocal sessions, and it appears that they (Brian's band) worked and reworked phrasing, sections and parts.  

And, in some other Brian interview, he talked about being so "next to something" that they all had to get away and "chuck it (Smile) for awhile."  It is subtitled in French.  And it seems to be clipped from An American Band.

According to what I'm seeing I did respond outside of your response box. But perhaps I'm missing something.

Secondly, I'm not claiming anyone is rewriting history, just getting their facts wrong. It may be irrelevant to you, but it's mildly annoying to see Mike get credit for something he didn't do. Not sure why bringing it up is an unreasonable reaction on my part.

Mike's lyrics are what are what were the on final product.  Ever think the music (distribution) company wanted market-worthy revisions?

What you find or perceive to be is "reasonable" might not be that way for another.

[rab2591]

Misinformation? Asher was heavily involved in that era.  No one is suggesting otherwise.  But, that material had to be digested by the live audiences and Asher wasn't the one at whom tomatoes would be tossed if an audience thought a song or performance was crap.  And who knew what would "work" with various crowds.  That would be Mike who was on the front lines in that era.  It is almost like a political speech writer who gives a politician or candidate a speech that the candidate knows isn't going to work with a certain constituency.  It could be a good speech, but won't garner a single vote.  

I never said anyone was claiming that Asher wasn't heavily involved in that era. Just saying that Brian (and possibly Asher) deserves credit for the concept of Good Vibrations, not Mike. And, yet again, I'm not disputing that Mike was a better man for the job regarding lyrics. His lyrics were indeed FAR better (lightyears better), and that the song went to #1 is a testament to his brilliance at songwriting. But again, the concept didn't deviate much from what Asher had already written prior. So Mike getting credit for the concept is ridiculous.

Rab2591 - first, please respond outside my response.  If it is re-quoted, it appears as though I wrote that. You can make your point outside "my space."  

Second, what is the purpose of re-writing history?  Whether the theme of "good vibrations" was bantered about in whatever context, by whichever people, is largely irrelevant now.  The single came out in 1966.  And, it wasn't Asher's version.  It is a fait accompli, nearly 50 years ago.  Tony's lyrics for God Only Knows are fully credited on the flip of the 45
rpm of Wouldn't It Be Nice.  It is how the ball bounces.  

And, while we might think they are all brilliant, I would guess that some is concept, whether melody or lyrical, coupled with hard work.  And lots of trial and error. This morning, I watched some '09 Christmas Brian vocal sessions, and it appears that they (Brian's band) worked and reworked phrasing, sections and parts.  

And, in some other Brian interview, he talked about being so "next to something" that they all had to get away and "chuck it (Smile) for awhile."  It is subtitled in French.  And it seems to be clipped from An American Band.

According to what I'm seeing I did respond outside of your response box. But perhaps I'm missing something.

Secondly, I'm not claiming anyone is rewriting history, just getting their facts wrong. It may be irrelevant to you, but it's mildly annoying to see Mike get credit for something he didn't do. Not sure why bringing it up is an unreasonable reaction on my part.

My bad. I mean the yellow screaming highlighting.

Actually, I would be curious to know myself it that is against the rules - considering changing/re-wording text is a violation, it would make sense that bolding or changing color of a quote would almost fall under that. Apologies if it is against the rules. Was merely trying to clarify what portion of your post I was responding to.

[rab2591]

Misinformation? Asher was heavily involved in that era.  No one is suggesting otherwise.  But, that material had to be digested by the live audiences and Asher wasn't the one at whom tomatoes would be tossed if an audience thought a song or performance was crap.  And who knew what would "work" with various crowds.  That would be Mike who was on the front lines in that era.  It is almost like a political speech writer who gives a politician or candidate a speech that the candidate knows isn't going to work with a certain constituency.  It could be a good speech, but won't garner a single vote.  

I never said anyone was claiming that Asher wasn't heavily involved in that era. Just saying that Brian (and possibly Asher) deserves credit for the concept of Good Vibrations, not Mike. And, yet again, I'm not disputing that Mike was a better man for the job regarding lyrics. His lyrics were indeed FAR better (lightyears better), and that the song went to #1 is a testament to his brilliance at songwriting. But again, the concept didn't deviate much from what Asher had already written prior. So Mike getting credit for the concept is ridiculous.

Rab2591 - first, please respond outside my response.  If it is re-quoted, it appears as though I wrote that. You can make your point outside "my space."  

Second, what is the purpose of re-writing history?  Whether the theme of "good vibrations" was bantered about in whatever context, by whichever people, is largely irrelevant now.  The single came out in 1966.  And, it wasn't Asher's version.  It is a fait accompli, nearly 50 years ago.  Tony's lyrics for God Only Knows are fully credited on the flip of the 45
rpm of Wouldn't It Be Nice.  It is how the ball bounces.  

And, while we might think they are all brilliant, I would guess that some is concept, whether melody or lyrical, coupled with hard work.  And lots of trial and error. This morning, I watched some '09 Christmas Brian vocal sessions, and it appears that they (Brian's band) worked and reworked phrasing, sections and parts.  

And, in some other Brian interview, he talked about being so "next to something" that they all had to get away and "chuck it (Smile) for awhile."  It is subtitled in French.  And it seems to be clipped from An American Band.

According to what I'm seeing I did respond outside of your response box. But perhaps I'm missing something.

Secondly, I'm not claiming anyone is rewriting history, just getting their facts wrong. It may be irrelevant to you, but it's mildly annoying to see Mike get credit for something he didn't do. Not sure why bringing it up is an unreasonable reaction on my part.

Mike's lyrics are what are what were the on final product.  Ever think the music (distribution) company wanted market-worthy revisions?

What you find or perceive to be is "reasonable" might not be that way for another.

Again, I'm not disputing this point, filledeplage. If you go back and read my posts, I'm clearly stating that Mike didn't himself conceive the idea for the song...that is all.

[SMiLE Brian]

Rab is right 100%, its Mike taking his actual (important) role and making it look bigger than it is. He is just a sad and insecure man at this point trying to look important to random small town newspapers.

And you know that how?

This: endless syncopation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfs7jm3uJdM&index=21&list=PL03A597537BC4CD3B

[filledeplage]

Misinformation? Asher was heavily involved in that era.  No one is suggesting otherwise.  But, that material had to be digested by the live audiences and Asher wasn't the one at whom tomatoes would be tossed if an audience thought a song or performance was crap.  And who knew what would "work" with various crowds.  That would be Mike who was on the front lines in that era.  It is almost like a political speech writer who gives a politician or candidate a speech that the candidate knows isn't going to work with a certain constituency.  It could be a good speech, but won't garner a single vote.  

I never said anyone was claiming that Asher wasn't heavily involved in that era. Just saying that Brian (and possibly Asher) deserves credit for the concept of Good Vibrations, not Mike. And, yet again, I'm not disputing that Mike was a better man for the job regarding lyrics. His lyrics were indeed FAR better (lightyears better), and that the song went to #1 is a testament to his brilliance at songwriting. But again, the concept didn't deviate much from what Asher had already written prior. So Mike getting credit for the concept is ridiculous.

Rab2591 - first, please respond outside my response.  If it is re-quoted, it appears as though I wrote that. You can make your point outside "my space."  

Second, what is the purpose of re-writing history?  Whether the theme of "good vibrations" was bantered about in whatever context, by whichever people, is largely irrelevant now.  The single came out in 1966.  And, it wasn't Asher's version.  It is a fait accompli, nearly 50 years ago.  Tony's lyrics for God Only Knows are fully credited on the flip of the 45
rpm of Wouldn't It Be Nice.  It is how the ball bounces.  

And, while we might think they are all brilliant, I would guess that some is concept, whether melody or lyrical, coupled with hard work.  And lots of trial and error. This morning, I watched some '09 Christmas Brian vocal sessions, and it appears that they (Brian's band) worked and reworked phrasing, sections and parts.  

And, in some other Brian interview, he talked about being so "next to something" that they all had to get away and "chuck it (Smile) for awhile."  It is subtitled in French.  And it seems to be clipped from An American Band.

According to what I'm seeing I did respond outside of your response box. But perhaps I'm missing something.

Secondly, I'm not claiming anyone is rewriting history, just getting their facts wrong. It may be irrelevant to you, but it's mildly annoying to see Mike get credit for something he didn't do. Not sure why bringing it up is an unreasonable reaction on my part.

My bad. I mean the yellow screaming highlighting.

Actually, I would be curious to know myself it that is against the rules - considering changing/re-wording text is a violation, it would make sense that bolding or changing color of a quote would almost fall under that. Apologies if it is against the rules. Was merely trying to clarify what portion of your post I was responding to.

Maybe a mod can clarify it. Every writer (poster) owns his/her own "fixed" expression.  That is copyright.  

[Cam Mott]

Given what we know about Brian's own songwriting and conception of ideas (I Get Around, Good Vibrations, Pet Sounds material), it isn't too hard to think that Brian brought a lot to the table regarding creative direction.

I disagree with you on IGA and GV, but I definitely agree "that Brian brought a lot to the table regarding creative direction" and imo that doesn't make Mike's claim untrue or an overstatement.

I think I've seen it claimed that people made contributions to some compositions and arrangements in Brian collaborations but imo it wouldn't make it untrue that Brian was the dominant "gifted arranger and composer of music" in his collaborations.

[filledeplage]

Rab is right 100%, its Mike taking his actual (important) role and making it look bigger than it is. He is just a sad and insecure man at this point trying to look important to random small town newspapers.

And you know that how?

This: endless syncopation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfs7jm3uJdM&index=21&list=PL03A597537BC4CD3B

Interesting...and in the EH DVD, I seem to remember that Brian had commented he would have liked to work on Kokomo with those other very successful writers.  Seems it was the Landy era...I do wish he had been on it...and not just after the fact on the Spanish version. I'm wondering if the video is really for "educational or reaseach" purposes...

[Cam Mott]

This: endless syncopation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfs7jm3uJdM&index=21&list=PL03A597537BC4CD3B

Some little boy's dog (probably named "Wrinkles") must have been run over by Mike when they were a little.

I hope nobody makes one of these turds for the rest of the band members.

[bossaroo]

it's mildly annoying to see Mike get credit for something he didn't do.

there's a difference between getting credit and giving yourself credit, which is all Mike is doing here and what he's done for years. anyone who wants the truth, as opposed to Mike's version of the truth, can discover it without too much difficulty.

I suppose we should be used to these comments from Mike by now, but I still have to shake my head and marvel at his conceit.

[rab2591]

Given what we know about Brian's own songwriting and conception of ideas (I Get Around, Good Vibrations, Pet Sounds material), it isn't too hard to think that Brian brought a lot to the table regarding creative direction.

I disagree with you on IGA and GV, but I definitely agree "that Brian brought a lot to the table regarding creative direction" and imo that doesn't make Mike's claim untrue or an overstatement.

I think I've seen it claimed that people made contributions to some compositions and arrangements in Brian collaborations but imo it wouldn't make it untrue that Brian was the dominant "gifted arranger and composer of music" in his collaborations.

Good Vibrations was a Brian/Asher idea (it is obvious judging by Asher's original lyrics). I Get Around is more iffy and I'll concede that. If Mike, according to you, truly believes he came up with the conceptual idea of Good Vibrations after he got the final backing track (even though we know for a fact Good Vibrations was already a girl-boy-ESP concept before Mike was handed the track.), it kinda makes me question the validity of his other claims.

[filledeplage]

Given what we know about Brian's own songwriting and conception of ideas (I Get Around, Good Vibrations, Pet Sounds material), it isn't too hard to think that Brian brought a lot to the table regarding creative direction.

I disagree with you on IGA and GV, but I definitely agree "that Brian brought a lot to the table regarding creative direction" and imo that doesn't make Mike's claim untrue or an overstatement.

I think I've seen it claimed that people made contributions to some compositions and arrangements in Brian collaborations but imo it wouldn't make it untrue that Brian was the dominant "gifted arranger and composer of music" in his collaborations.

Good Vibrations was a Brian/Asher idea (it is obvious judging by Asher's original lyrics). I Get Around is more iffy and I'll concede that. If Mike, according to you, truly believes he came up with the conceptual idea of Good Vibrations after he got the final backing track (even though we know for a fact Good Vibrations was already a girl-boy-ESP concept before Mike was handed the track.), it kinda makes me question the validity of his other claims.

And, Sloop was Al's idea but Brian did the arrangement.  It is "Trad. Arr. Brian Wilson. "

One is an uncredited "concept" and the other is reflective of substantial modification and production, and fully credited.  The finished product.  Al's idea, and Brian's work product.  It is what it is.

[Mike's Beard]

My understanding of the timeline was
Brian worked on endless sessions of a song he called Good Vibrations. It's title was inspired by a quote his mother made about 'dogs picking up vibrations from people'. Brian's concept was that people could pick up vibes others were giving off. The early sessions had no lyrics other then Brian shouting "Good, good, good vibrations YEAH!"
Mike tweaked the concept by making it directly about a boy picking up good vibrations from a girl he liked when he pitched the "I'm picking up good vibrations. She's givin' me the excitations" hook to Brian.
Brian asked Tony Asher to write lyrics to it. Asher wrote a rough draft version of the lyrics.
For some reason Asher never got around/wasn't asked to improve on the lyrics.
Brian asked Van Dyke to have a crack at a re-write; Van passed.
Mike came up with the far superior finished lyrics.

Mike can take credit for refining/expanding upon Brian's initial concept as far as I can see.

[Cam Mott]

Given what we know about Brian's own songwriting and conception of ideas (I Get Around, Good Vibrations, Pet Sounds material), it isn't too hard to think that Brian brought a lot to the table regarding creative direction.

I disagree with you on IGA and GV, but I definitely agree "that Brian brought a lot to the table regarding creative direction" and imo that doesn't make Mike's claim untrue or an overstatement.

I think I've seen it claimed that people made contributions to some compositions and arrangements in Brian collaborations but imo it wouldn't make it untrue that Brian was the dominant "gifted arranger and composer of music" in his collaborations.

Good Vibrations was a Brian/Asher idea (it is obvious judging by Asher's original lyrics). I Get Around is more iffy and I'll concede that. If Mike, according to you, truly believes he came up with the conceptual idea of Good Vibrations after he got the final backing track (even though we know for a fact Good Vibrations was already a girl-boy-ESP concept before Mike was handed the track.), it kinda makes me question the validity of his other claims.

You and I know about Asher's earlier lyrics but did Mike in 1966? I don't know. The way I remember he tells it is, he heard the final track and thought it needed a relatable boy/girl lyric. Were there any vocal sessions for Asher's verses or have the other Boys mentioned hearing Asher's lyrics? I believe Brian gives Mike credit for the "vibrations/excitations" lyric.

[Please delete my account]

I've never understood why Mike's lyrical contributions to Beach Boys songs is supposed to be so important. (Musical hooks is another thing altogether). Yes he was a pretty good lyricist but no better than Usher, Christian and Asher. People bought and still buy these records for their MUSIC. Brian Wilson is the Beach Boys.

[SMiLE Brian]

Exactly, Mike needs to puff himself up for no reason. I don't see Tony Asher or VDP doing the same stuff on a consistent basis.

[Mike's Beard]

I've never understood why Mike's lyrical contributions to Beach Boys songs is supposed to be so important. (Musical hooks is another thing altogether). Yes he was a pretty good lyricist but no better than Usher, Christian and Asher. People bought and still buy these records for their MUSIC. Brian Wilson is the Beach Boys.

Mike is leagues ahead of Usher as a lyricist. I'm a big fan of Christian but don't think I've ever seen him write for anything other then the hod rod genre.