Has Mike Expressed Remorse On Whatever Role He May Have Played in Smile's Demise

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Does anyone believe that the reactions from the band members as Brian played them the Smile music he was working on were as positive as the band members seemed to suggest in the series of YouTube webisodes promoting the Smile Sessions box set?

At the core of at least some of this turmoil was Brian's fear that people wouldn't like what he was offering - it was what he apparently expressed to Marilyn as they listened to his final mixdown of Pet Sounds when he returned from the studio with the finished album. His fear was that people wouldn't like music that he considered as personal as anything he had done. No wonder - he grew up in a dysfunctional family where the main figure of authority in his life, his father, was on his back constantly providing negative support being masked as an attempt to instill a drive and a work ethic into a son whose talents for creating music eclipsed those of his father.

So many artists are looking for that support, that validation or confirmation, from a potential audience of millions of strangers being asked to open up to what you're offering. If an artist already dealing with issues of acceptance and validation looks to his immediate circle of friends and bandmates for that acceptance and doesn't feel like they're on board, the smallest negative reaction can be amplified into something that causes the artist to question more than just the issue at hand, and the confidence in the work itself is jeopardized. With a history as we can read this artist and this band had in the years prior to 1967, it's no wonder.

So again, can anyone believe that the band's (the family's...) reaction to this music in 66-67 was as positive and as supportive as they spoke of it in the YouTube promotions 45 years later?

Of course not, but how do we know how well Brian explained the songs and project to the band? For decades they talked about "fragments and pieces". With 20/20 hindsight, hundreds of boots and two box sets down the road it's easy to say that we, the hip fans, get Smile and that the band was a bunch of squares who resisted changes. But I'm not sure Brian was making it easy for his bandmates back in the day.

These people didn't seem to have as much of a problem getting excited about and supporting what Brian was doing as he would play them acetates and tapes of his progress in the studio, including several musicians with a handful of hit records of their own between them, a future arranger-artist-producer of note, a handful of journalists present and absent from that photo, managers, that mystery producer who heard "Fire" as it was being recorded in the studio and was amazed by what he heard...and Dennis Wilson for one wasn't shy about praising the music both at the time and in later years. His approval was a constant, along with this group of friends and associates.

Did Brian explain it in a better or more clear way to these people than he did the other band members?

None of those people were in The Beach Boys and none of them were to sing ( or more accurately: spend endless hours in the studio slaving over) on the tracks or then go and (prospectively) perform them. Also, these folk idolized and fawned over Brian in a way his brothers and cousin and high school friend never would and never could even if they wanted to or tried.

Should I feel sorry hearing how they slaved over these tracks that brought them fame and fortune in their teens and early 20's, not to mention worldwide public success and respect from their peers in the music biz? Was Brian right with Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations, or not?

Poor guys.  

Sometimes folks just don't realize where they are until they step outside the bubble and can see things from the outside. Maybe the people around Brian, all those idolizers and fawners and whatever other false and negative imagery of them you'd want to borrow from the "Beach Boys: An American Family" cartoon-like version of 1966 and 1967, saw things from outside all the family issues and backstories and judged the music for what it was and how it affected *them*.

Opinions are fine, they're a dime a dozen, but let's not turn the likes of Dean Torrance and Mark Volman and Van Dyke Parks into fawners, idol-worshippers, and interlopers out to ride Brian's coattails to make a point about the Beach Boys.

Man, c'mon! I didn't mean slaving as in puttering around in anger while waiting for the workman's comp papers to go through! I meant slaving as in working their asses off. You think it's easy to sing and sing well and to get good stuff down on tape for BRIAN WILSON???

Thanks for making my nuanced (agreeing with it or not) opinion black n white. I really am sick to death of this board......... At least The Beach Boys part.

Oh, and thanks for reminding me that only Mike Love has ridden Brian's coattails!

Ridiculous fan boy claptrap.

[guitarfool2002]

I doubt it. Brian probably showed them an acetate or two. Is Michael Vosse all that knowledgeable about Smile in that 1969 interviw? Remember that he had the benefit of listening to Smiley Smile and 20/20 in the meantime.

An acetate or two? Seriously, haven't you heard of the regular listening parties and invites to the house to listen to Smile tracks as the work was being done? Read Volman, Vosse, Anderle, Seigel...it was far more than one or two acetates (?), heck even the Seigel article describes one specific night where Brian auditioned a stack of acetates for the guests, and according to Volman he'd be at Brian's house sitting around the table listening to the works in progress on a regular basis.

And yes, in the "Fusion" article, Vosse is specific and mentions specific details about Smile tracks that had not been heard nor reused on other albums since the original project was scrapped in 1967. Very specific, especially on certain parts of Wind Chimes and Heroes which he'd ask Brian to play over and over, and those tracks were buried in the vaults in 1969 where no one outside the innermost circle had ever heard them. Until the Smile bootlegging explosion in the 80's no one had heard them...and as we listen now, Vosse's descriptions from 1969 were spot-on correct. Which would make sense since he was with Brian more than Al and Bruce combined during the Smile era.

[filledeplage]

And, these allegations against Mike are nonsense.  Had he wanted to sabotage the project, his vocals would have been awful.  

Who has suggested that he "wanted to sabotage the project"?

A lot of people, most of whom do not post here.

Yes, and the actual word demise, means "to send away" (Latin - dimittere, or demettre -French) one might infer context of sabotage and that is the constant harangue.  

Maybe guitarfool2002 introduces the Murry factor.  Plausible.  

But, water under the bridge.  Brian's "Love and Mercy" is all about forgiveness and love.  If Brian can get beyond this, can't fans?  It isn't a fan grudge match.  Or, is it?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I doubt it. Brian probably showed them an acetate or two. Is Michael Vosse all that knowledgeable about Smile in that 1969 interviw? Remember that he had the benefit of listening to Smiley Smile and 20/20 in the meantime.

An acetate or two? Seriously, haven't you heard of the regular listening parties and invites to the house to listen to Smile tracks as the work was being done? Read Volman, Vosse, Anderle, Seigel...it was far more than one or two acetates (?), heck even the Seigel article describes one specific night where Brian auditioned a stack of acetates for the guests, and according to Volman he'd be at Brian's house sitting around the table listening to the works in progress on a regular basis.

And yes, in the "Fusion" article, Vosse is specific and mentions specific details about Smile tracks that had not been heard nor reused on other albums since the original project was scrapped in 1967. Very specific, especially on certain parts of Wind Chimes and Heroes which he'd ask Brian to play over and over, and those tracks were buried in the vaults in 1969 where no one outside the innermost circle had ever heard them. Until the Smile bootlegging explosion in the 80's no one had heard them...and as we listen now, Vosse's descriptions from 1969 were spot-on correct. Which would make sense since he was with Brian more than Al and Bruce combined during the Smile era.

Darn! All Brian had to do was fire the Beach Boys and have Vosse, Seigel, etc etc sing SMILE and it would have been a billion seller and all would be well in Brian-worshiper fantasy land!

I'm sure VDP could have worked the tambourine as well as Mike! And who would have been the new Dennis? Anderle, of course!

[guitarfool2002]

Does anyone believe that the reactions from the band members as Brian played them the Smile music he was working on were as positive as the band members seemed to suggest in the series of YouTube webisodes promoting the Smile Sessions box set?

At the core of at least some of this turmoil was Brian's fear that people wouldn't like what he was offering - it was what he apparently expressed to Marilyn as they listened to his final mixdown of Pet Sounds when he returned from the studio with the finished album. His fear was that people wouldn't like music that he considered as personal as anything he had done. No wonder - he grew up in a dysfunctional family where the main figure of authority in his life, his father, was on his back constantly providing negative support being masked as an attempt to instill a drive and a work ethic into a son whose talents for creating music eclipsed those of his father.

So many artists are looking for that support, that validation or confirmation, from a potential audience of millions of strangers being asked to open up to what you're offering. If an artist already dealing with issues of acceptance and validation looks to his immediate circle of friends and bandmates for that acceptance and doesn't feel like they're on board, the smallest negative reaction can be amplified into something that causes the artist to question more than just the issue at hand, and the confidence in the work itself is jeopardized. With a history as we can read this artist and this band had in the years prior to 1967, it's no wonder.

So again, can anyone believe that the band's (the family's...) reaction to this music in 66-67 was as positive and as supportive as they spoke of it in the YouTube promotions 45 years later?

Of course not, but how do we know how well Brian explained the songs and project to the band? For decades they talked about "fragments and pieces". With 20/20 hindsight, hundreds of boots and two box sets down the road it's easy to say that we, the hip fans, get Smile and that the band was a bunch of squares who resisted changes. But I'm not sure Brian was making it easy for his bandmates back in the day.

These people didn't seem to have as much of a problem getting excited about and supporting what Brian was doing as he would play them acetates and tapes of his progress in the studio, including several musicians with a handful of hit records of their own between them, a future arranger-artist-producer of note, a handful of journalists present and absent from that photo, managers, that mystery producer who heard "Fire" as it was being recorded in the studio and was amazed by what he heard...and Dennis Wilson for one wasn't shy about praising the music both at the time and in later years. His approval was a constant, along with this group of friends and associates.

Did Brian explain it in a better or more clear way to these people than he did the other band members?

None of those people were in The Beach Boys and none of them were to sing ( or more accurately: spend endless hours in the studio slaving over) on the tracks or then go and (prospectively) perform them. Also, these folk idolized and fawned over Brian in a way his brothers and cousin and high school friend never would and never could even if they wanted to or tried.

Should I feel sorry hearing how they slaved over these tracks that brought them fame and fortune in their teens and early 20's, not to mention worldwide public success and respect from their peers in the music biz? Was Brian right with Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations, or not?

Poor guys.  

Sometimes folks just don't realize where they are until they step outside the bubble and can see things from the outside. Maybe the people around Brian, all those idolizers and fawners and whatever other false and negative imagery of them you'd want to borrow from the "Beach Boys: An American Family" cartoon-like version of 1966 and 1967, saw things from outside all the family issues and backstories and judged the music for what it was and how it affected *them*.

Opinions are fine, they're a dime a dozen, but let's not turn the likes of Dean Torrance and Mark Volman and Van Dyke Parks into fawners, idol-worshippers, and interlopers out to ride Brian's coattails to make a point about the Beach Boys.

Man, c'mon! I didn't mean slaving as in puttering around in anger while waiting for the workman's comp papers to go through! I meant slaving as in working their asses off. You think it's easy to sing and sing well and to get good stuff down on tape for BRIAN WILSON???

Thanks for making my nuanced (agreeing with it or not) opinion black n white. I really am sick to death of this board......... At least The Beach Boys part.

Oh, and thanks for reminding me that only Mike Love has ridden Brian's coattails!

Ridiculous fan boy claptrap.

If you're looking for a reaction and a conflict, look elsewhere. Just don't marginalize what's been said as "ridiculous fan boy claptrap" unless you're prepared to prove it. And if your evidence is anything like the bit where I somehow suggested Mike has ridden Brian's coattails, since I didn't write that here, I won't bother waiting for it.

[Dancing Bear]

I doubt it. Brian probably showed them an acetate or two. Is Michael Vosse all that knowledgeable about Smile in that 1969 interviw? Remember that he had the benefit of listening to Smiley Smile and 20/20 in the meantime.

An acetate or two? Seriously, haven't you heard of the regular listening parties and invites to the house to listen to Smile tracks as the work was being done? Read Volman, Vosse, Anderle, Seigel...it was far more than one or two acetates (?), heck even the Seigel article describes one specific night where Brian auditioned a stack of acetates for the guests, and according to Volman he'd be at Brian's house sitting around the table listening to the works in progress on a regular basis.

And yes, in the "Fusion" article, Vosse is specific and mentions specific details about Smile tracks that had not been heard nor reused on other albums since the original project was scrapped in 1967. Very specific, especially on certain parts of Wind Chimes and Heroes which he'd ask Brian to play over and over, and those tracks were buried in the vaults in 1969 where no one outside the innermost circle had ever heard them. Until the Smile bootlegging explosion in the 80's no one had heard them...and as we listen now, Vosse's descriptions from 1969 were spot-on correct. Which would make sense since he was with Brian more than Al and Bruce combined during the Smile era.

If only those guys in Brian's listening parties had kept those acetates... We'd be able to fill in all those holes that exist to this day in Smile. Damn!  

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Does anyone believe that the reactions from the band members as Brian played them the Smile music he was working on were as positive as the band members seemed to suggest in the series of YouTube webisodes promoting the Smile Sessions box set?

At the core of at least some of this turmoil was Brian's fear that people wouldn't like what he was offering - it was what he apparently expressed to Marilyn as they listened to his final mixdown of Pet Sounds when he returned from the studio with the finished album. His fear was that people wouldn't like music that he considered as personal as anything he had done. No wonder - he grew up in a dysfunctional family where the main figure of authority in his life, his father, was on his back constantly providing negative support being masked as an attempt to instill a drive and a work ethic into a son whose talents for creating music eclipsed those of his father.

So many artists are looking for that support, that validation or confirmation, from a potential audience of millions of strangers being asked to open up to what you're offering. If an artist already dealing with issues of acceptance and validation looks to his immediate circle of friends and bandmates for that acceptance and doesn't feel like they're on board, the smallest negative reaction can be amplified into something that causes the artist to question more than just the issue at hand, and the confidence in the work itself is jeopardized. With a history as we can read this artist and this band had in the years prior to 1967, it's no wonder.

So again, can anyone believe that the band's (the family's...) reaction to this music in 66-67 was as positive and as supportive as they spoke of it in the YouTube promotions 45 years later?

Of course not, but how do we know how well Brian explained the songs and project to the band? For decades they talked about "fragments and pieces". With 20/20 hindsight, hundreds of boots and two box sets down the road it's easy to say that we, the hip fans, get Smile and that the band was a bunch of squares who resisted changes. But I'm not sure Brian was making it easy for his bandmates back in the day.

These people didn't seem to have as much of a problem getting excited about and supporting what Brian was doing as he would play them acetates and tapes of his progress in the studio, including several musicians with a handful of hit records of their own between them, a future arranger-artist-producer of note, a handful of journalists present and absent from that photo, managers, that mystery producer who heard "Fire" as it was being recorded in the studio and was amazed by what he heard...and Dennis Wilson for one wasn't shy about praising the music both at the time and in later years. His approval was a constant, along with this group of friends and associates.

Did Brian explain it in a better or more clear way to these people than he did the other band members?

None of those people were in The Beach Boys and none of them were to sing ( or more accurately: spend endless hours in the studio slaving over) on the tracks or then go and (prospectively) perform them. Also, these folk idolized and fawned over Brian in a way his brothers and cousin and high school friend never would and never could even if they wanted to or tried.

Should I feel sorry hearing how they slaved over these tracks that brought them fame and fortune in their teens and early 20's, not to mention worldwide public success and respect from their peers in the music biz? Was Brian right with Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations, or not?

Poor guys.  

Sometimes folks just don't realize where they are until they step outside the bubble and can see things from the outside. Maybe the people around Brian, all those idolizers and fawners and whatever other false and negative imagery of them you'd want to borrow from the "Beach Boys: An American Family" cartoon-like version of 1966 and 1967, saw things from outside all the family issues and backstories and judged the music for what it was and how it affected *them*.

Opinions are fine, they're a dime a dozen, but let's not turn the likes of Dean Torrance and Mark Volman and Van Dyke Parks into fawners, idol-worshippers, and interlopers out to ride Brian's coattails to make a point about the Beach Boys.

Man, c'mon! I didn't mean slaving as in puttering around in anger while waiting for the workman's comp papers to go through! I meant slaving as in working their asses off. You think it's easy to sing and sing well and to get good stuff down on tape for BRIAN WILSON???

Thanks for making my nuanced (agreeing with it or not) opinion black n white. I really am sick to death of this board......... At least The Beach Boys part.

Oh, and thanks for reminding me that only Mike Love has ridden Brian's coattails!

Ridiculous fan boy claptrap.

If you're looking for a reaction and a conflict, look elsewhere. Just don't marginalize what's been said as "ridiculous fan boy claptrap" unless you're prepared to prove it. And if your evidence is anything like the bit where I somehow suggested Mike has ridden Brian's coattails, since I didn't write that here, I won't bother waiting for it.

Better question is why throw around words like "prove" into such "discussions"? Only proof we have of anything is The Beach Boys gorgeous vocals on Smile fragments (and now an official release) .... All else is hearsay and a whole lot of after the fact bitterness.... The only one who seems to have moved on is Brian, God bless him.

Reaction and conflict on the SmileySmile board?? Never.... 

[Dancing Bear]

Which would make sense since he was with Brian more than Al and Bruce combined during the Smile era.

If Brian would rather have the company of the likes of Vosse - more than Bruce and Al combined, as you say - I don't see why he'd care about their opinions (or Mike's, Carl's and Dennis') about Smile. Wow. We don't have a dead horse to beat anymore. We made it!

[guitarfool2002]

I doubt it. Brian probably showed them an acetate or two. Is Michael Vosse all that knowledgeable about Smile in that 1969 interviw? Remember that he had the benefit of listening to Smiley Smile and 20/20 in the meantime.

An acetate or two? Seriously, haven't you heard of the regular listening parties and invites to the house to listen to Smile tracks as the work was being done? Read Volman, Vosse, Anderle, Seigel...it was far more than one or two acetates (?), heck even the Seigel article describes one specific night where Brian auditioned a stack of acetates for the guests, and according to Volman he'd be at Brian's house sitting around the table listening to the works in progress on a regular basis.

And yes, in the "Fusion" article, Vosse is specific and mentions specific details about Smile tracks that had not been heard nor reused on other albums since the original project was scrapped in 1967. Very specific, especially on certain parts of Wind Chimes and Heroes which he'd ask Brian to play over and over, and those tracks were buried in the vaults in 1969 where no one outside the innermost circle had ever heard them. Until the Smile bootlegging explosion in the 80's no one had heard them...and as we listen now, Vosse's descriptions from 1969 were spot-on correct. Which would make sense since he was with Brian more than Al and Bruce combined during the Smile era.

If only those guys in Brian's listening parties had kept those acetates... We'd be able to fill in all those holes that exist to this day in Smile. Damn!  

   That's a great point, actually the legend of Smile acetates made them more essential than what the actual acetates seem to be in terms of filling in the gaps or finding missing parts! That's kind of a letdown versus the legend of these being the missing links. Jules Seigel described the acetates Brian played that night so they appeared to be the mixes we got on the '93 box set and assorted boots. Vosse describes sections and fragments we're familiar with *except* for one version of Wind Chimes that knocked everyone out at the time, and that the description seems just a shade different from the versions we all have heard. Then there was the "Durrie Parks Acetates" auction within the past year, where the legendary stash of discs turns out to contain material that we already have, with no major revelations at least on the surface. The acetates in general may not have been unique as speculated through the years, with a few exceptions like Barnyard and of course Teeter Totter Love.

I think it was Cam who said Brian gave Jules a stack of these acetates but they were lost? Or destroyed?? Cam?  

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Which would make sense since he was with Brian more than Al and Bruce combined during the Smile era.

If Brian would rather have the company of the likes of Vosse - more than Bruce and Al combined, as you say - I don't see why he'd care about their opinions (or Mike's, Carl's and Dennis') about Smile. Wow. We don't have a dead horse to beat anymore. We made it!

THANK YOU!!!!!

[guitarfool2002]

Which would make sense since he was with Brian more than Al and Bruce combined during the Smile era.

If Brian would rather have the company of the likes of Vosse - more than Bruce and Al combined, as you say - I don't see why he'd care about their opinions (or Mike's, Carl's and Dennis') about Smile. Wow. We don't have a dead horse to beat anymore. We made it!

Wait...how do you draw that conclusion? Vosse simply happened to be around as Brian's assistant more than Al or Bruce during the Smile era, that's a fact. In part, the Beach Boys were on tour and simply not there, that's a fact. How does that reach the conclusion that Brian would rather have the company of Vosse over anyone else when the other two guys for weeks at a time weren't even in the same country?

Brian also went bowling regularly on weekends with the Rovell family during the Smile era, can we tie that into the collapse of Smile and Mike Love's influence on the process? Maybe Mike was secretly loading the bowling pins with weights so Brian could never roll a strike, and that helped break his confidence in the studio...yeah, that's the ticket! Logical conclusion.  

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Which would make sense since he was with Brian more than Al and Bruce combined during the Smile era.

If Brian would rather have the company of the likes of Vosse - more than Bruce and Al combined, as you say - I don't see why he'd care about their opinions (or Mike's, Carl's and Dennis') about Smile. Wow. We don't have a dead horse to beat anymore. We made it!

Wait...how do you draw that conclusion? Vosse simply happened to be around as Brian's assistant more than Al or Bruce during the Smile era, that's a fact. In part, the Beach Boys were on tour and simply not there, that's a fact. How does that reach the conclusion that Brian would rather have the company of Vosse over anyone else when the other two guys for weeks at a time weren't even in the same country?

Brian also went bowling regularly on weekends with the Rovell family during the Smile era, can we tie that into the collapse of Smile and Mike Love's influence on the process? Maybe Mike was secretly loading the bowling pins with weights so Brian could never roll a strike, and that helped break his confidence in the studio...yeah, that's the ticket! Logical conclusion.  

you might be onto something. In the least Mike got future fashion ideas from such outings:

[guitarfool2002]

Which would make sense since he was with Brian more than Al and Bruce combined during the Smile era.

If Brian would rather have the company of the likes of Vosse - more than Bruce and Al combined, as you say - I don't see why he'd care about their opinions (or Mike's, Carl's and Dennis') about Smile. Wow. We don't have a dead horse to beat anymore. We made it!

THANK YOU!!!!!

Ok then, tell me exactly who was legally a "partner" in the Beach Boys in early 1967, and whether outside members could be brought in and labeled band members and existing members fired on a whim.

A hint: Al Jardine even by 1967 was still not a full member of the corporate structure behind the Beach Boys...It was all guys named Wilson or Love.

Whether Brian wanted to work with Vosse or Brother Julius or Sidney The Wonder Dog rather than Bruce or Mike or anyone else, there was a business and legal structure in place that defined "The Beach Boys" under contract, and you couldn't randomly pick and choose who would become official members no matter how great of a B.F.F. that person was at the time.

He'd care about their opinions because they were bandmates and in the case of Mike and his brothers: Bandmates, business partners, and family. Period.

[guitarfool2002]

Which would make sense since he was with Brian more than Al and Bruce combined during the Smile era.

If Brian would rather have the company of the likes of Vosse - more than Bruce and Al combined, as you say - I don't see why he'd care about their opinions (or Mike's, Carl's and Dennis') about Smile. Wow. We don't have a dead horse to beat anymore. We made it!

Wait...how do you draw that conclusion? Vosse simply happened to be around as Brian's assistant more than Al or Bruce during the Smile era, that's a fact. In part, the Beach Boys were on tour and simply not there, that's a fact. How does that reach the conclusion that Brian would rather have the company of Vosse over anyone else when the other two guys for weeks at a time weren't even in the same country?

Brian also went bowling regularly on weekends with the Rovell family during the Smile era, can we tie that into the collapse of Smile and Mike Love's influence on the process? Maybe Mike was secretly loading the bowling pins with weights so Brian could never roll a strike, and that helped break his confidence in the studio...yeah, that's the ticket! Logical conclusion.  

you might be onto something. In the least Mike got future fashion ideas from such outings:

Brian was known to wear bowling shoes as part of his everyday clothes, add to that Mike's fashion sense, I think the real key to understanding Smile is bowling. No doubt. 

[KittyKat]

The older I get, the less reverence I hold Brian's hangers-on from the "Smile" period. Maybe it's just me.

BUT . . . for people who thought Brian's Laurel Way buddies were much more hip than the Beach Boys and "got it" and were supposedly with Brian all the way and supporting him and "Smile" completely -- you do realize every one of those people in the airport photo left Brian in the next few months and couldn't deal with his behavior anymore, either?

[guitarfool2002]

The older I get, the less reverence I hold Brian's hangers-on from the "Smile" period. Maybe it's just me.

BUT . . . for people who thought Brian's Laurel Way buddies were much more hip than the Beach Boys and "got it" and were supposedly with Brian all the way and supporting him and "Smile" completely -- you do realize every one of those people in the airport photo left Brian in the next few months and couldn't deal with his behavior anymore, either?

It's not about showing reverence at all, it's a case of who was in the inner circle at this time and who was involved in the day-to-day affairs from business (Anderle and Vosse), to music and collaborations (Parks), to pure friendship (Hutton, Volman, Torrance, etc).

These "hangers-on" were actually doing official, paid work for the Beach Boys. How can you term someone like Anderle a "hanger on" when he was their official manager who along with Nick Grillo was setting up Brother Records, dealing with the lawsuit, going to all the meetings with Capitol, and handling the plans for the new record company and corporation? And Vosse came into the fold with Anderle, and was acting as Brian's de facto assistant and was soon to be involved with the proposed film division of Brother.

Did you realize one of the job duties Vosse was given involved the film division of what was to be Brother Records? Or that he was also involved in some of the daily administrative work setting up Brother? When things started to get more complicated around the Spring of '67 along with the lawsuit and Carl's draft/legal issues, they told Vosse he wouldn't be needed to do anything with the film work until September 1967. So he had within a few months been given a job involving Brother's proposed films, then told not to do anything until the fall. In his own words, he was left with little or nothing to do as an employee. So he left. And as everything else was imploding, including Van Dyke leaving, then returning, then leaving again, Anderle followed suit as what he was charged with doing in a business sense started to conflict with the group's activities and issues.

To try to simplify it into saying these people simply packed up and left because they couldn't deal with Brian - and suggest that as the catch-all answer behind the history - ignores the details of how everything played out, and all the other factors that contributed to it.

Which, coincidentally, both Vosse and Anderle have added that the family tensions and interpersonal family issues of the Beach Boys during this time were contributing factors. Not the sole factor, but a factor to be considered along with a variety of others.

So let's not rewrite or revise things into saying Brian was acting bizarre and it made everyone leave his company, and that was the driving force. Because it is far more involved than that. I thought that was common knowledge by now, in 2013.

[KittyKat]

The fact that Brian had so many of his friends summoned in the middle of the night to drive all the way to the airport just to pose for a photo with him says a lot about his mental state back then.  Although they did it, I'm sure it gave just about all of them pause. Also, what about Brian paranoid freak-out over David Anderle's painting of him? Anderle said their personal relationship never recovered from that. Brian was flat out acting weird to the people he knew and loved best, his personal friends as well as the Beach Boys.  A lot of people were alienated from Brian on a friendship level, and not simply a business level.

[Cam Mott]

I'm pretty sure Anderle says in the Williams interview that he and the non-band members [some in the LAX photo presumably] around Brian were sometimes doubters and resisters. Then sometimes they weren't. And then he also says VDP was criticizing Brian's music and dominance and then sometimes he wasn't. The Posse might not have had as much contact with the Boys as you think.

On the other hand, Anderle says the Boys were working hard and beautifully on SMiLE. That the most antagonistic situations between Brian and the Boys weren't even really antagonistic. A lot of love there. I agree that the only real evidence is on the tapes and do not support the critical opinions of the group.

Brian would have to care about the Boy's/Capitol's opinions toward the album first and I don't see any evidence for that, in fact I see evidence of the opposite.

Jules Siegel told me his acetates were stolen or lost, can't remember. I think I remember Vosse said his were also lost or stolen.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Guitarfool, you are remarkable here in this thread. I am astonished at the kind of remarks your thoughtful posts are getting. Once again, the "Brian junked it. Period" crowd are trying to move mountains in order to put words in your mouth in order to have something to argue against.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Guitarfool, you are remarkable here in this thread. I am astonished at the kind of remarks your thoughtful posts are getting. Once again, the "Brian junked it. Period" crowd are trying to move mountains in order to put words in your mouth in order to have something to argue against.

OK, but who is it that keeps these conversations spiraling into a never ending whirlpool?

How many folk from the "Brian-Junked-It-Crowd" do you see putting up posts every 5 minutes asking when that bastard Brian will ever apologize for dropping SMILE? Or however many different permutations of the same question? You don't.... Most people have moved on from the issue....

And I wonder why, if we're going to get into the business of (further) canonizing Brian's hip, SMILE era supporters/encouragers: no one's asking why they didn't effectively embolden Brian toward finishing his work. He has all this great support yet all it takes is Mike asking what a couple lyrics mean? If we're going to harp forever and ever on the effect a bit of negativity had on Brian, why not harp on the lack of effect a whole lot of positivity managed as well?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

And I wonder why, if we're going to get into the business of (further) canonizing Brian's hip, SMILE era supporters/encouragers: no one's asking why they didn't effectively embolden Brian toward finishing his work. He has all this great support yet all it takes is Mike asking what a couple lyrics mean?

Again, you are manufacturing an argument that no one else is arguing.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And I wonder why, if we're going to get into the business of (further) canonizing Brian's hip, SMILE era supporters/encouragers: no one's asking why they didn't effectively embolden Brian toward finishing his work. He has all this great support yet all it takes is Mike asking what a couple lyrics mean?

Again, you are manufacturing an argument that no one else is arguing.

No..... Rather, anyone in the opposite camp is free to discuss/dissect/flog to death the issue until their fingers are raw from all the typing, but a "Brian-Junked-It" guy chimes in and he's "manufacturing an argument"? ......

But you're right in that, even to discuss this issue at such length is basically one big example of manufacturing an argument, regardless of what "side" you're.

[Dancing Bear]

So let's not rewrite or revise things into saying Brian was acting bizarre and it made everyone leave his company, and that was the driving force. Because it is far more involved than that. I thought that was common knowledge by now, in 2013.

As long as we admit that he did act bizarre at times... And we know that everyone did leave his company, except for his family, the band and maybe Hutton.

Does it mean that Brian must take ALL RESPONSABILITY FOR KILLING SMILE? No. Neither must Mike, Murry, Parks, Korthoff, Grillo....  
  

[the professor]

God in heaven!!!! Who cares!? As it turns out, we also got Smiley Smile. If you want to live in a world where Smile came out in 67 and Smiley Smile, BW's Smile, and the Smile sessions never did come out, then get yourself a damned time machine and change history.

Enough.

The Professor

[KittyKat]

Where's David Leaf? I'd love to hear his take on all of it after all these years and seeing how it all played out in the end. Oh, I forgot, he's alienated from Brian, too. That seems to be a pattern, going all the way up to David and Andy Paley.