Has Mike Expressed Remorse On Whatever Role He May Have Played in Smile's Demise

[Cam Mott]

Yes, he had an equal right to express his opinion on band matters. He asked about the meaning of a lyric that he sang. Which of those requires an apology? Is there something else you can point to that requires an apology.

What specifically did Mike say that hurt Brian's feelings?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

What is it you think Mike did to apologize for?

He’d ideally apologize for saying things at the time that unintentionally, inadvertently, deeply hurt somebody’s feelings. I’d hope for a DeLorean to go back in time about 47 years and have those words spoken then, but late is also better than never. Neither you nor I can know exactly, specifically what was said between Mike/Brian/VDP, nor the exact manner in which the words were said. But I don’t think it’s reaching to assume that the words, in all likelihood, were perceived by Brian/VDP as being a tactless, negative, and that they caused deeply hurt feelings, to say the least.

Did Mike have the “right” to say them, to speak his mind in the way he saw fit? Well, of course he did. It’s the USA, and you can pretty much say whatever you want (barring yelling “Mrs. O’Leary’s Cow”…err… “Fire” in a crowded movie theater)… but it is a truly big person who can find it in themselves to apologize - or express regret - for hurting another person’s feelings – even if hurt feelings weren't intended in the first place.

There would also hopefully be at least a tiny amount of acknowledgement/awareness of the fact that, no matter how small the words/sentiment were, that they potentially could have been taken the wrong way by Brian/VDP, and that although they were just words, they nonetheless may have been a contributing factor (however small) in stirring up a cloud of negativity/self-doubt in a very sensitive person.

^This should be enough to end the thread. TL;DR: No, he doesn't have to. But it'd be a nice, honorable thing to do. And I do believe he'd win back a lot of sympathy from the public if he did. I sense a deathbed confession...

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Yes, he had an equal right to express his opinion on band matters. He asked about the meaning of a lyric that he sang. Which of those requires an apology? Is there something else you can point to that requires an apology.

What specifically did Mike say that hurt Brian's feelings?

Obviously no one can say. But it isn't unreasonable to assume that in more or less a whole calendar year of sessions, they probably talked about it a lot. And both VDP and Brian have strongly stated Mike was negative about it. Could they be pinning their failure to finish the LP on the publicly declared bad guy, the easiest scapegoat? It's possible. But Tony, Gary and other collaborators also confirmed a hostile vibe from Mike. So, theres that.

[CenturyDeprived]

Yes, he had an equal right to express his opinion on band matters. He asked about the meaning of a lyric that he sang. Which of those requires an apology? Is there something else you can point to that requires an apology.

What specifically did Mike say that hurt Brian's feelings?

Again - you and I were not there, and we can't specifically say what those things are. The point is, when a person has deeply hurt another person, even if that hurt was not intentional... once it becomes obvious how deeply those words cut, an apology is basically the right thing to do - even if it's not apologizing for the intended sentiment that the words expressed - the apology/expression of regret would be to let the hurt person know that the hurt was not intended, and that the words didn't come from a hurtful/vengeful/mean-spirited place in the person's heart (Mike).

But I would really like to know your opinion on this question, which I posed to you earlier in this thread:

Beach Boys aside, do you think it is impossible for a person to potentially have a negative (and at times detrimentally negative) emotional effect on another person with their words, tone of voice, and overall attitude? Your reaction seems to imply that you find this to be an impossible or unacceptable occurrence, even though it does happen between people on Earth every day due to conflicting personalities.

It's clear as day to me that this is basically what happened here between these guys.

[Cam Mott]

I can't answer because I don't know anyway that Mike hurt Brian's feelings. Refresh my memory please. I don't think he should apologize for someone's assumptions. Should he apologize because someone didn't think they liked him?

Al and Bruce have said they were humiliated being required to lay on the floor and sing and make animal noises. Should they apologize for being humiliated?

[CenturyDeprived]

I can't answer because I don't know anyway that Mike hurt Brian's feelings. Refresh my memory please. I don't think he should apologize for someone's assumptions. Should he apologize because someone didn't think they liked him?

Al and Bruce have said they were humiliated being required to lay on the floor and sing and make animal noises. Should they apologize for being humiliated?

I'm trying to understand: are you of the opinion that Brian and VDP did not feel deeply hurt by Mike's words and the ways those words were expressed?  I'd say it's pretty much on record at this point.

And I'm NOT speaking of your opinions on whether or not those hurt feelings were "justified", or whether or not Mike had the "right" to say the things he said, in the manner/tone of his choosing. Those opinions are irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Al and Bruce clearly have much thicker skin compared to Brian. In the hypothetical scenario that either of them had deeply hurt feelings due to BW's actions or words, then I'd say that BW apologizing, saying that he didn't' mean to hurt their feelings, would absolutely be the right thing to do.  

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I can't answer because I don't know anyway that Mike hurt Brian's feelings. Refresh my memory please. I don't think he should apologize for someone's assumptions. Should he apologize because someone didn't think they liked him?

Al and Bruce have said they were humiliated being required to lay on the floor and sing and make animal noises. Should they apologize for being humiliated?

Bruce and Al need to be humiliated that way more often.....

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I can't answer because I don't know anyway that Mike hurt Brian's feelings. Refresh my memory please. I don't think he should apologize for someone's assumptions. Should he apologize because someone didn't think they liked him?

Al and Bruce have said they were humiliated being required to lay on the floor and sing and make animal noises. Should they apologize for being humiliated?

No. In that instance, Brian ought to appologize for hurting their feelings. Please don't put words in our mouthes. Or ignore half of the argument against your claims--Brian and VDP agree that he didn't seem supportive at all. This attitude of hostility by Mike to outside collaborators of Brian's demonstrates a pattern of behavior which is reasonable to assume was repeated in 67 and deeply hurt Brian. Again, not the big bad sadistic killer of SMiLE, but a bit obnoxious and careless.

[drbeachboy]

I can't answer because I don't know anyway that Mike hurt Brian's feelings. Refresh my memory please. I don't think he should apologize for someone's assumptions. Should he apologize because someone didn't think they liked him?

Al and Bruce have said they were humiliated being required to lay on the floor and sing and make animal noises. Should they apologize for being humiliated?

Bruce and Al need to be humiliated that way more often.....

Brian should apologize right now for humiliating Al & Bruce. And for humiliating them by waiting 48 years to apologize.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I can't answer because I don't know anyway that Mike hurt Brian's feelings. Refresh my memory please. I don't think he should apologize for someone's assumptions. Should he apologize because someone didn't think they liked him?

Al and Bruce have said they were humiliated being required to lay on the floor and sing and make animal noises. Should they apologize for being humiliated?

No. In that instance, Brian ought to appologize for hurting their feelings. Please don't put words in our mouthes. Or ignore half of the argument against your claims--Brian and VDP agree that he didn't seem supportive at all. This attitude of hostility by Mike to outside collaborators of Brian's demonstrates a pattern of behavior which is reasonable to assume was repeated in 67 and deeply hurt Brian. Again, not the big bad sadistic killer of SMiLE, but a bit obnoxious and careless.

Wait, wait, wait a second! You're taking Mike asking what some lyrics mean't and "not seeming supportive at all" and turning it into "an attitude of hostility by Mike to outside collaborators of Brian's" and then turning that into a "pattern of behavior" which you then assume was repeated in 67 and deeply hurt Brian and was "obnoxious and careless?" ..... Isn't that something of a stretch?

This is what keeps getting me about these discussions: taking one's opinion and adjusting what he know to fit this opinion, and then turning around and using the opinion as somehow supporting the facts...

As far as I can gather, the only person outwardly hostile to outside collaborators was Murray.

[drbeachboy]

I can't answer because I don't know anyway that Mike hurt Brian's feelings. Refresh my memory please. I don't think he should apologize for someone's assumptions. Should he apologize because someone didn't think they liked him?

Al and Bruce have said they were humiliated being required to lay on the floor and sing and make animal noises. Should they apologize for being humiliated?

No. In that instance, Brian ought to appologize for hurting their feelings. Please don't put words in our mouthes. Or ignore half of the argument against your claims--Brian and VDP agree that he didn't seem supportive at all. This attitude of hostility by Mike to outside collaborators of Brian's demonstrates a pattern of behavior which is reasonable to assume was repeated in 67 and deeply hurt Brian. Again, not the big bad sadistic killer of SMiLE, but a bit obnoxious and careless.

Mike doing this 48 years later proves what? Will Smile automatically reappear as a 1967 release? Will history be changed? Personally, I think that the Beach Boys historians have proved that no matter what any band members thought about Smile, that if Brian had really wanted Smile finished and released, then it would have been indeed, finished and released. What happened with Smile was on Brian, and Brian only.

[Ron]

I think Mike already apologized on September 8th, 1967.   

Oh wait, he might have apologized April 12th, 1973...

it was one or the other, can't remember, becuase it's been 50 FUCKING YEARS AGO

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I can't answer because I don't know anyway that Mike hurt Brian's feelings. Refresh my memory please. I don't think he should apologize for someone's assumptions. Should he apologize because someone didn't think they liked him?

Al and Bruce have said they were humiliated being required to lay on the floor and sing and make animal noises. Should they apologize for being humiliated?

No. In that instance, Brian ought to appologize for hurting their feelings. Please don't put words in our mouthes. Or ignore half of the argument against your claims--Brian and VDP agree that he didn't seem supportive at all. This attitude of hostility by Mike to outside collaborators of Brian's demonstrates a pattern of behavior which is reasonable to assume was repeated in 67 and deeply hurt Brian. Again, not the big bad sadistic killer of SMiLE, but a bit obnoxious and careless.

Mike doing this 48 years later proves what? Will Smile automatically reappear as a 1967 release? Will history be changed? Personally, I think that the Beach Boys historians have proved that no matter what any band members thought about Smile, that if Brian had really wanted Smile finished and released, then it would have been indeed, finished and released. What happened with Smile was on Brian, and Brian only.

How about reading all of my contributions in this thread before opening your mouth? I've given a fair, nuanced take on Mike, I'm not laying the blame for SMiLE at his feet, he is a factor in it, however. An apology is not owed us or Brian for SMiLE as I've said. But it would be a humble, thoughtful gesture on Mike's part. Will it change history? No. But it may sooth old wounds, diminish the barrier and resentment that clearly exists between the two, and help each get some emotional weight off their chest. In Mike's case, it could save his reputation before it's too late.

[Ron]

How about reading the combined works of Shakespeare before opening your mouth?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

How about reading the combined works of Shakespeare before opening your mouth?

I think before you debate a man or assume you know his stance and go running your mouth, you ought to read his entire contribution to the relevant topic. F*** me, right?'

[Ron]

Not when your entire comments are the length of the U.S. Tax Code. 

[Cam Mott]

I can't answer because I don't know anyway that Mike hurt Brian's feelings. Refresh my memory please. I don't think he should apologize for someone's assumptions. Should he apologize because someone didn't think they liked him?

Al and Bruce have said they were humiliated being required to lay on the floor and sing and make animal noises. Should they apologize for being humiliated?

I'm trying to understand: are you of the opinion that Brian and VDP did not feel deeply hurt by Mike's words and the ways those words were expressed?  I'd say it's pretty much on record at this point.

And I'm NOT speaking of your opinions on whether or not those hurt feelings were "justified", or whether or not Mike had the "right" to say the things he said, in the manner/tone of his choosing. Those opinions are irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Al and Bruce clearly have much thicker skin compared to Brian. In the hypothetical scenario that either of them had deeply hurt feelings due to BW's actions or words, then I'd say that BW apologizing, saying that he didn't' mean to hurt their feelings, would absolutely be the right thing to do.  

I have no idea, why do you think Mike hurt their feelings. Maybe VDP's feelings were hurt but I don't think requires an apology for asking a lyricist to explain a lyric.

I think we are just not going to agree. I don't think Brian got his feeling hurt by the Boys, he told them what to do and they did it. On the other hand I think he and VDP had issues with each other and they may have hurt each others feelings, not even sure of that. If you think that Brian's hurt feelings by anyone were a factor in the failure of SMiLE I think that is wrong. I think it is pretty clear that Brian had his problems with the material itself and in particular the lyrics and he did just what he wanted to do which was scrap and modify and new. I don't think you owe  someone an apology for them getting their way.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Not when your entire comments are the length of the U.S. Tax Code. 

If you care about the topic enough to visit a forum and create an account for discussion, it seems really weird and unfair to criticize someone for offer a meaningful response and add to the exchange of ideas. Don't you think? Or would you rather we limit ourselves to bite-sized tweets, dissmissive put downs and simplified black and white/heroes and villains historical revisionism? Why do you even come here if not to discuss the subjects intelligently?

[Ron]

The problem we as fans have is that we have no perspective.  We ONLY know Brian by his music, that's all he's ever given us intimate or personal.  So we assume anything to do with his music is a huge deal to him.

In reality, while it's the only way WE know him, it's just 1 facet of his life.  

At the time he and his wife had all kinds of sh*t going on.  He had an overbearing dad that was entangled in every part of his life.  He was having trouble with his brothers professionally... The record company was beating down on him.... he had business obligations he was failing to meet, he was addicted to drugs, and he had serious mental issues that would soon prove to completely cripple his life... for years and years and years.

Whether or not Mike said something cross to him was probably just a minor part of the sh*t that was going on in his head, most people would be devastated if they were fighting with their wife, we don't know sh*t about that... for instance... so speculating on whether or not 1 business associate "Apologized" or not (Which he may have, who knows?) is just the most ridiculous of all the ridiculous ideas we've discussed on this forum.

[Ron]

Not when your entire comments are the length of the U.S. Tax Code. 

If you care about the topic enough to visit a forum and create an account for discussion, it seems really weird and unfair to criticize someone for offer a meaningful response and add to the exchange of ideas. Don't you think? Or would you rather we limit ourselves to bite-sized tweets, dissmissive put downs and simplified black and white/heroes and villains historical revisionism? Why do you even come here if not to discuss the subjects intelligently?

I'm just saying, you have been bitching about something for about 5 pages back and forth back and forth and you can't really expect anybody to be fluent in your ramblings. 

I don't expect you to be fluent in mine.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

The problem we as fans have is that we have no perspective.  We ONLY know Brian by his music, that's all he's ever given us intimate or personal.  So we assume anything to do with his music is a huge deal to him.

In reality, while it's the only way WE know him, it's just 1 facet of his life.  

At the time he and his wife had all kinds of sh*t going on.  He had an overbearing dad that was entangled in every part of his life.  He was having trouble with his brothers professionally... The record company was beating down on him.... he had business obligations he was failing to meet, he was addicted to drugs, and he had serious mental issues that would soon prove to completely cripple his life... for years and years and years.

Whether or not Mike said something cross to him was probably just a minor part of the sh*t that was going on in his head, most people would be devastated if they were fighting with their wife, we don't know sh*t about that... for instance... so speculating on whether or not 1 business associate "Apologized" or not (Which he may have, who knows?) is just the most ridiculous of all the ridiculous ideas we've discussed on this forum.

Nope, sorry. TL;DR.
140 characters or less, please. I have ADD and cannot focus on one train of thought for more than 3 consecutive seconds.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Not when your entire comments are the length of the U.S. Tax Code. 

If you care about the topic enough to visit a forum and create an account for discussion, it seems really weird and unfair to criticize someone for offer a meaningful response and add to the exchange of ideas. Don't you think? Or would you rather we limit ourselves to bite-sized tweets, dissmissive put downs and simplified black and white/heroes and villains historical revisionism? Why do you even come here if not to discuss the subjects intelligently?

I'm just saying, you have been bitching about something for about 5 pages back and forth back and forth and you can't really expect anybody to be fluent in your ramblings. 

I don't expect you to be fluent in mine.

Show me these 5 pages of unintelligible rambling, please. As far as I can see, I joined the discussion about 2 pages ago and shared my input clearly and descriptively.

[alf wiedersehen]

Guys, give it a rest.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Guys, give it a rest.

I just want to discuss this intelligently. If a fully thought out contribution is being derided I can't help but wonder what the point of this thread is.

[drbeachboy]

I can't answer because I don't know anyway that Mike hurt Brian's feelings. Refresh my memory please. I don't think he should apologize for someone's assumptions. Should he apologize because someone didn't think they liked him?

Al and Bruce have said they were humiliated being required to lay on the floor and sing and make animal noises. Should they apologize for being humiliated?

No. In that instance, Brian ought to appologize for hurting their feelings. Please don't put words in our mouthes. Or ignore half of the argument against your claims--Brian and VDP agree that he didn't seem supportive at all. This attitude of hostility by Mike to outside collaborators of Brian's demonstrates a pattern of behavior which is reasonable to assume was repeated in 67 and deeply hurt Brian. Again, not the big bad sadistic killer of SMiLE, but a bit obnoxious and careless.

Mike doing this 48 years later proves what? Will Smile automatically reappear as a 1967 release? Will history be changed? Personally, I think that the Beach Boys historians have proved that no matter what any band members thought about Smile, that if Brian had really wanted Smile finished and released, then it would have been indeed, finished and released. What happened with Smile was on Brian, and Brian only.

How about reading all of my contributions in this thread before opening your mouth? I've given a fair, nuanced take on Mike, I'm not laying the blame for SMiLE at his feet, he is a factor in it, however. An apology is not owed us or Brian for SMiLE as I've said. But it would be a humble, thoughtful gesture on Mike's part. Will it change history? No. But it may sooth old wounds, diminish the barrier and resentment that clearly exists between the two, and help each get some emotional weight off their chest. In Mike's case, it could save his reputation before it's too late.

No it will not, especially after 48 years. Why would Mike or any other band member apologize for something they had no control over? Also, none of us really know what has and what has not been said between them over the years. Btw, I've read all of the posts in this thread, but to tell the truth it was getting all kinds of stupid rehashing this crap for the umpteenth hundred time. Talking about it for the next fifty years will not change a single thing regarding the final outcome of Smile.