Has Mike Expressed Remorse On Whatever Role He May Have Played in Smile's Demise

[Shady]

Does anyone else feel Mike secretly has a lot of regrets, like the collapse of smile and all the other things he get sh*t for. I personally do.

He comes across like a broken man in a lot of interviews, you can tell it in his voice.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

What does this have to do with anything?

You seem to care about Brian's" hangers-on" a whole lot more than the issue really warrants..... History has only really dealt them any ink due to their own insertion of themselves into The Beach Boys history. They were not Beach Boys and were aligned with Brian and not the rest of the Beach Boys, therefore they will (insult of all insults) be refereed to as hangers-on by some.  Some people will defend them, others won't....This has happened with the story of nearly every band, and usually to a much greater extent than The Beach Boys. Look it up.... Besides, they've all been treated pretty damn fairly begin so connected to the great Brian Wilson for all these decades. If the Beach Boys have had to weather being dissed, so can these cats.

 Some of you seem to be taking this way too personally....

The Beach Boys history does not begin and end with SMILE, BTW...... Just pointing out....

Your motives for coming here and posting in this thread are more clear now. And that's sad.

Therefore, feel free to wallow in whatever delusions, fantasy, and perceptions you choose, because a discussion of the facts as it relates to the bigger picture of this time period is NOT what you're interested in discussing, learning, or even considering.

You instead like to push buttons, to marginalize, to throw opinions based on false assumptions around a discussion in order to provoke...

In short, have fun with that.

If anyone here does not wish to discuss this time period in a historical way, and would rather throw random bullshit around just to provoke, then at least make your intentions known so those who are here for an actual discussion and sharing of the history can avoid getting drawn into this crap.

It's a far cry from where the original intent to start a board like this, or any board related to this bigger topic, came from. And that's sad. But maybe it's indicative of a new breed of fans who prefer to work hard at being a pain in the ass rather than discussing the facts, hashing out opinions, and having an old fashioned bull session around the history of this stuff as has happened for centuries among historians and history buffs and the like.

At least the players in the game can better be identified, those who are genuinely interested versus those who want to incite, provoke, or deliberately post bullshit in order to provoke.

So let the facts stand on their own, but try not to spread your bullshit so thick that others start to believe it's something other than bullshit. Deal?

And if you have nothing else better to do than to post such a shitty reply to what was intended as an attempt to fill in some of the history with information that doesn't get reported nor shared nor posted online all that often, but which is part of the bigger picture of the Smile era in general, in combination with your saying that you're sick of this board, then consider taking it elsewhere. Plenty of places out there to discuss music online, and sometimes you'll encounter those folks who are more in line with the type of posts in this thread.

"What does this have to do with anything?" was the exact line.

You could have told me to f*** off and it would have had the same effect. So take that to the bank. It's not welcome here.

Yet, my enraging reply was in no way as harsh as this, guitarfool!!!

I will apologize for asking "what does this have to do with anything" ... It was a knee jerk reaction to what I read.... Imagine if we were sitting around a table with some beers and OSD's copy of Looking Back With Love on the turntable, and Jon's books open and being pursued and you said what you said and I asked in a huff "what does this have to do with anything"? .... It probably would have come off a lot differently... You are one of the posters on this board who I respect the most. I think you know this from our adventures on other threads.

And here we go with how many more pages of the discussion going around and around without my help? Some people dig a lengthy history lesson (very informative and well written, yes) on Brian's people at the time, and others simply ask what it really has to do with why Smile didn't happen (in 67) ... I've asked many good questions and have brought up some very good points (some repeated to more respectful replies by others, thank you) .... If you just want to insult me: that has no place here, I would parrot: but unfortunately, it does seem to have a place here.... I am in no way trying to disrupt or any of that immature crap.. We agree that facts are facts, yet, if the fact that The Beach Boys singing their asses off on recorded SMILE tracks can be argued as a weak case, then so can ..... the facts.

I think we all need to calm down and just try and respect the various little camps and enclaves us fans can settle into when we're talking about a band that spans 50 years and with such varied output... I think the truth, and the only truth is that, yes, there were too  many various contributors to SMILE's (67) demise to ever be quantified and set in stone. If you want to blame Mike, there's evidence to that effect, if you want to blame Brian, there's evidence there too. That's life....

I got out of line, I'll admit that and offer a direct apology to you as well. Just as you stated, those knee-jerk reactions can be the ones that come out worse or even different than the original intent, and again it was over the line in this case. So I'm sorry for that.

I just want to restate my bottom line here, and it's not to rehash anything but rather to explain where I'm coming from.

Reading through these posts it can be frustrating to witness not just opinions being presented as solid facts, but those opinions of certain authors and certain books/projects being presented as facts, as well as in a few cases the opinions being based on facts which are simply not true at all. And they can be proven false by presenting the facts. If people are willing to consider them, which it felt like wasn't happening enough here in favor of the debate itself.

That is why I posted as much info as I did. I simply do not care to see people who were involved in the Smile saga have their names dragged through the muck on this board, have it suggested that they were more trouble than they were worth, whatever the case. It's not that I'm related to them or associated with them, but the *facts* (that word again) shows that some things happened a certain way, despite what some may have been led to believe based on faulty information.

The other point is that research has been done, the facts are out there for the taking, some of these people are out there and have been spoken to by people on this board, directly and indirectly.

Here is where I might sound a bit harsh, but it's something that may save some of these dust-ups, and is directed generally rather than to a specific person:

Opinions are welcome, naturally. However, take some ownership over what you're about to say in the discussion before saying it. If you're basing a challenge in the discussion on something you've read in the Smile box set, consider digging deeper. If you're basing it on the "Beautiful Dreamer" DVD, consider digging deeper. If you're clutching a copy of LLVS and that's all you have on Smile, consider digging deeper.

Because above all, there are no simple, general, compact answers to any of these issues. Period. If you try to suggest that there are, you'll get called out. Because those who have looked into this and spoken with some of these people know that there is more than a simple plug-in answer to most of these issues.

Discussion is fine, but to come on without a good chunk of information, suggest things that have been proven false since the late 60's and try to argue those points as right or wrong...it's bordering on a waste of everyone's time. And it shows a bit of laziness too because if the interest is truly there, the materials and resources can be found with a little effort.

And that effort can pay off in magnificent ways, one of which is interacting with some people who you might connect with even in the slightest way and who may inspire you to then try to "pay it forward" when a similar opportunity comes your way.

So I did post maybe a bit too long-winded in this thread, but some of those items, again, are not ones which are often repeated or even reported in general surrounding Smile, for whatever reasons. Surely they're not in the box set, nor were they on those YouTube webisodes where everyone was overjoyed with Smile in general. Nor in LLVS, or several other books. But they're facts which, if folks are genuinely interested in this Smile history beyond Twitter-style short answers and convenient solutions to complex questions, are worth at least reading about so you have that much more info for the discussion.

And if some people don't care about such things, that's their business..just don't try to argue or debate stuff that you're not even familiar with beyond those short and easy answers.

And please don't take the Smile box set booklet version of events, or the YouTube interviews, or LLVS, or Beautiful Dreamer, or any one source to be the final word on any of this. It's not that easy, and that's what keeps it interesting. Consider many sources and many accounts, and if you're not sure where to find those, just ask before starting a dust-up over these things.

That's not too much to ask, is it?  

No apology necessary, GL. The only person out of line was me...

And you bring up a great point: as long as SMILE and it's story remains interesting, in and of itself, it will continue to be discussed.

And Shady, you make a great point too. And it's something to remember: Mike is a human being. Regrets are par for the course if you're  his age, and if he doesn't want to share them with a bunch of strangers: that should be respected.

[Shady]

And Shady, you make a great point too. And it's something to remember: Mike is a human being. Regrets are par for the course if you're  his age, and if he doesn't want to share them with a bunch of strangers: that should be respected.

We might get a better look into his view on things with the book he's writing.

I think smile bothers Mike more than he let's on

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And Shady, you make a great point too. And it's something to remember: Mike is a human being. Regrets are par for the course if you're  his age, and if he doesn't want to share them with a bunch of strangers: that should be respected.

We might get a better look into his view on things with the book he's writing.

I think this board might just blow the internet into the cyber-afterworld if this book every comes out....

[drbeachboy]

Does anyone else feel Mike secretly has a lot of regrets, like the collapse of smile and all the other things he get sh*t for. I personally do.

He comes across like a broken man in a lot of interviews, you can tell it in his voice.

He has also been asked this stuff a million times and also is aware that he has been unjustly identified as the villain in all of it. You're right in the respect that if Smile had been released and was a commercial and artistic success, that most likely their whole history could have changed. Some heady stuff if you really think about it. Kind of prophetic that the lead song was named Heroes and Villains. Their hardcore fan base has done nothing but paint each band member as one or the other for the past 40+ years.

[Gertie J.]

Does anyone else feel Mike secretly has a lot of regrets, like the collapse of smile and all the other things he get sh*t for. I personally do.

He comes across like a broken man in a lot of interviews, you can tell it in his voice.

preach it, bro 

[SMiLE Brian]

"A broken man too tough to cry".....

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

It's also a reality that a specific segment of "fans" just get off on bashing the guy, to the point where the why's, how's, or what's hardly even matter.....

This should be admitted.

[SMiLE Brian]

The youtube fans....

[Gertie J.]

"A broken man too tough to cry".....

oh man, your even bigger brianista than i could possibly think.....

[Shady]

It's also a reality that a specific segment of "fans" just get off on bashing the guy, to the point where the why's, how's, or what's hardly even matter.....

This should be admitted.

It's really a large number of people who bash Mike. I see anti Mike comments everywhere and not just on Beach Boys related sites.

The general word out there to people with even a limited knowledge of The Beach Boys is....Mike Love is a dick head, he hated Pet Sounds and Smile and wrote Kokomo.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

It's also a reality that a specific segment of "fans" just get off on bashing the guy, to the point where the why's, how's, or what's hardly even matter.....

This should be admitted.

The general word out there to people with even a limited knowledge of The Beach Boys is....Mike Love is a dick head, he hated Pet Sounds and Smile and wrote Kokomo.

The Gospel According To OSD! 

[Rocky Raccoon]

The youtube fans....

No kidding, every Beach Boys video I see on there has one, whether it's warranted or not.  I mean, if you don't like him, that's fine but don't talk about him as if he killed someone.  He's made questionable decisions when it comes to the band but he seems like a pretty cool guy.  Not cool as in hip but cool as in I wouldn't mind sitting down to have a drink with him.  The way people vilify him is disturbing and I do feel sorry for him and his family as well.  I talked to his daughter Ambha about that and it really does hurt her to see what's said about her own father from people who don't really know what's going on.

[SMiLE Brian]

I can't stand the man's behavior and career decisions at times, but the youtube stuff about him is plain awful.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

The youtube fans....

No kidding, every Beach Boys video I see on there has one, whether it's warranted or not.  I mean, if you don't like him, that's fine but don't talk about him as if he killed someone.  He's made questionable decisions when it comes to the band but he seems like a pretty cool guy.  Not cool as in hip but cool as in I wouldn't mind sitting down to have a drink with him.  The way people vilify him is disturbing and I do feel sorry for him and his family as well.  I talked to his daughter Ambha about that and it really does hurt her to see what's said about her own father from people who don't really know what's going on.

Youtube comments are a cesspool of group-think of the lowest form.

Look at any AC/DC clip and the comments quickly devolve into Brian Johnson bashing and most Beatles clip comments feature "Paul was an asshole" blowups.

[Gertie J.]

I can't stand the man's behavior and career decisions at times, but the youtube stuff about him is plain awful.

only at times? 

[Sheriff John Stone]

Does anyone else feel Mike secretly has a lot of regrets, like the collapse of smile and all the other things he get sh*t for. I personally do.

He comes across like a broken man in a lot of interviews, you can tell it in his voice.

I've thought about that a lot over the years, and this is my opinion. I think for the most part, Mike feels vindicated about a lot of things and a lot of his choices -- both in his music career and in his life. And, now that I write it, vindicated isn't the best word to use, maybe satisfied is a better term. No, satisfied isn't right either. How about content? Content with his choices, life choices. Mike has seen first hand, hell, he experienced first hand, what happened to Brian and Dennis, the tragedy that was their lives and careers. He's seen bands come and go, rock stars die too young, and other rock stars/musicans broke - and broken. For most of Mike's 72 years, he's been healthy and happy. He has every material thing in the world that he ever dreamed of, and, now, it appears he is surrounded by a loving wife and family. I mean, when you think about it, what more could a man want?

To address specifically Mike's Beach Boys-related regrets, I feel very strongly about two areas. I always felt that Mike felt they blew it with the trifecta of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends. The Beach Boys went from arguably the second most popular band in the world in 1966, to, in three short years, a band let go by their record company, a corporation near bankruptcy, near empty concert halls, and band members/family members splintering. Brian was regressing to the point of contributing about 2-3 songs (or 8-9 minutes of music) a year, Dennis was releasing solo records, Bruce left, and Carl Wilson became the band's producer almost by default. It wasn't supposed to be that way. And, basically they never recovered. Mike made the statement in a documentary, and while he was oversimplifying and not 100% accurate, his statement about "Heroes And Villains" being Brian's last dynamic production - and that was in 1967 - is a pretty powerful statement. And, in many ways, ways that I'm not prepared to debate, that one statement tells you a lot about the career of The Beach Boys.

The other "big regret" that I think still haunts Mike to this day is that his songwriting partnership with Brian Wilson essentially ended in 1980 - 33 years ago. They were only 40 years old. I don't think Mike ever envisioned the day when he would NOT record albums - ALBUMS - with Brian. But, that's what happened. I think Brian's solo career silently killed Mike. Yeah, Mike made the occasional negative comment, but he always had to say things like "Brian's doing his thing now, but we always have a seat available and the door is always open" to remain optimistic. I always thought that Mike was thinking "I hope this is Brian's last solo album and he gives this solo thing up". But, Brian never did; Brian has had a 27 year solo career, and Mike recorded one Beach Boys' album in 20 years. Mike's songwriting years with Brian have now become ancient history. I used to think that Mike would give or do anything - anything - to work with Brian. And I was wrong. Mike now has his "demands", and I think Mike has his demands because he was deeply disappointed, devastated, and I'll even say shocked that he never again worked on an album's worth of songs after Keeping' The Summer Alive. Yeah, "Kokomo" is part of that, too, but I think Mike harbors the regret of what could've been - post 1980. Wasted years of possible Beach Boys' albums, possible hit singles. 33 years, that's a large part of Mike and Brian's adult life. Mike now views his songwriting partnership with Brian as a part of rock & roll history, but the optimism of future collaborations seems to have disappeared, for a lot of reasons that have been debated ad nauseam. Yeah, I think that's a huge regret.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Does anyone else feel Mike secretly has a lot of regrets, like the collapse of smile and all the other things he get sh*t for. I personally do.

He comes across like a broken man in a lot of interviews, you can tell it in his voice.

I've thought about that a lot over the years, and this is my opinion. I think for the most part, Mike feels vindicated about a lot of things and a lot of his choices -- both in his music career and in his life. And, now that I write it, vindicated isn't the best word to use, maybe satisfied is a better term. No, satisfied isn't right either. How about content? Content with his choices, life choices. Mike has seen first hand, hell, he experienced first hand, what happened to Brian and Dennis, the tragedy that was their lives and careers. He's seen bands come and go, rock stars die too young, and other rock stars/musicans broke - and broken. For most of Mike's 72 years, he's been healthy and happy. He has every material thing in the world that he ever dreamed of, and, now, it appears he is surrounded by a loving wife and family. I mean, when you think about it, what more could a man want?

To address specifically Mike's Beach Boys-related regrets, I feel very strongly about two areas. I always felt that Mike felt they blew it with the trifecta of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends. The Beach Boys went from arguably the second most popular band in the world in 1966, to, in three short years, a band let go by their record company, a corporation near bankruptcy, near empty concert halls, and band members/family members splintering. Brian was regressing to the point of contributing about 2-3 songs (or 8-9 minutes of music) a year, Dennis was releasing solo records, Bruce left, and Carl Wilson became the band's producer almost by default. It wasn't supposed to be that way. And, basically they never recovered. Mike made the statement in a documentary, and while he was oversimplifying and not 100% accurate, his statement about "Heroes And Villains" being Brian's last dynamic production - and that was in 1967 - is a pretty powerful statement. And, in many ways, ways that I'm not prepared to debate, that one statement tells you a lot about the career of The Beach Boys.

The other "big regret" that I think still haunts Mike to this day is that his songwriting partnership with Brian Wilson essentially ended in 1980 - 33 years ago. They were only 40 years old. I don't think Mike ever envisioned the day when he would NOT record albums - ALBUMS - with Brian. But, that's what happened. I think Brian's solo career silently killed Mike. Yeah, Mike made the occasional negative comment, but he always had to say things like "Brian's doing his thing now, but we always have a seat available and the door is always open" to remain optimistic. I always thought that Mike was thinking "I hope this is Brian's last solo album and he gives this solo thing up". But, Brian never did; Brian has had a 27 year solo career, and Mike recorded one Beach Boys' album in 20 years. Mike's songwriting years with Brian have now become ancient history. I used to think that Mike would give or do anything - anything - to work with Brian. And I was wrong. Mike now has his "demands", and I think Mike has his demands because he was deeply disappointed, devastated, and I'll even say shocked that he never again worked on an album's worth of songs after Keeping' The Summer Alive. Yeah, "Kokomo" is part of that, too, but I think Mike harbors the regret of what could've been - post 1980. Wasted years of possible Beach Boys' albums, possible hit singles. 33 years, that's a large part of Mike and Brian's adult life. Mike now views his songwriting partnership with Brian as a part of rock & roll history, but the optimism of future collaborations seems to have disappeared, for a lot of reasons that have been debated ad nauseam. Yeah, I think that's a huge regret.

Very very well put, as usual. But one thing: do you really think Mike regrets Wild Honey: a Brian/Mike showcase for the ages, that fans obsess over and which sold pretty damn well in the day? Or Friends: which sits right there in the little TM, be-robed, bearded, guru Mike period?

[SMiLE Brian]

It's also a reality that a specific segment of "fans" just get off on bashing the guy, to the point where the why's, how's, or what's hardly even matter.....

This should be admitted.

The general word out there to people with even a limited knowledge of The Beach Boys is....Mike Love is a dick head, he hated Pet Sounds and Smile and wrote Kokomo.

The Gospel According To OSD! 

I want OSD to blog his 40+ years of BBs shows experience.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

It's also a reality that a specific segment of "fans" just get off on bashing the guy, to the point where the why's, how's, or what's hardly even matter.....

This should be admitted.

The general word out there to people with even a limited knowledge of The Beach Boys is....Mike Love is a dick head, he hated Pet Sounds and Smile and wrote Kokomo.

The Gospel According To OSD! 

I want OSD to blog his 40+ years of BBs shows experience.

I want OSD to provide the "forward" to Mike's book!

[Gertie J.]

luckily, it won't happen.

[Shady]

Does anyone else feel Mike secretly has a lot of regrets, like the collapse of smile and all the other things he get sh*t for. I personally do.

He comes across like a broken man in a lot of interviews, you can tell it in his voice.

I've thought about that a lot over the years, and this is my opinion. I think for the most part, Mike feels vindicated about a lot of things and a lot of his choices -- both in his music career and in his life. And, now that I write it, vindicated isn't the best word to use, maybe satisfied is a better term. No, satisfied isn't right either. How about content? Content with his choices, life choices. Mike has seen first hand, hell, he experienced first hand, what happened to Brian and Dennis, the tragedy that was their lives and careers. He's seen bands come and go, rock stars die too young, and other rock stars/musicans broke - and broken. For most of Mike's 72 years, he's been healthy and happy. He has every material thing in the world that he ever dreamed of, and, now, it appears he is surrounded by a loving wife and family. I mean, when you think about it, what more could a man want?

To address specifically Mike's Beach Boys-related regrets, I feel very strongly about two areas. I always felt that Mike felt they blew it with the trifecta of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends. The Beach Boys went from arguably the second most popular band in the world in 1966, to, in three short years, a band let go by their record company, a corporation near bankruptcy, near empty concert halls, and band members/family members splintering. Brian was regressing to the point of contributing about 2-3 songs (or 8-9 minutes of music) a year, Dennis was releasing solo records, Bruce left, and Carl Wilson became the band's producer almost by default. It wasn't supposed to be that way. And, basically they never recovered. Mike made the statement in a documentary, and while he was oversimplifying and not 100% accurate, his statement about "Heroes And Villains" being Brian's last dynamic production - and that was in 1967 - is a pretty powerful statement. And, in many ways, ways that I'm not prepared to debate, that one statement tells you a lot about the career of The Beach Boys.

The other "big regret" that I think still haunts Mike to this day is that his songwriting partnership with Brian Wilson essentially ended in 1980 - 33 years ago. They were only 40 years old. I don't think Mike ever envisioned the day when he would NOT record albums - ALBUMS - with Brian. But, that's what happened. I think Brian's solo career silently killed Mike. Yeah, Mike made the occasional negative comment, but he always had to say things like "Brian's doing his thing now, but we always have a seat available and the door is always open" to remain optimistic. I always thought that Mike was thinking "I hope this is Brian's last solo album and he gives this solo thing up". But, Brian never did; Brian has had a 27 year solo career, and Mike recorded one Beach Boys' album in 20 years. Mike's songwriting years with Brian have now become ancient history. I used to think that Mike would give or do anything - anything - to work with Brian. And I was wrong. Mike now has his "demands", and I think Mike has his demands because he was deeply disappointed, devastated, and I'll even say shocked that he never again worked on an album's worth of songs after Keeping' The Summer Alive. Yeah, "Kokomo" is part of that, too, but I think Mike harbors the regret of what could've been - post 1980. Wasted years of possible Beach Boys' albums, possible hit singles. 33 years, that's a large part of Mike and Brian's adult life. Mike now views his songwriting partnership with Brian as a part of rock & roll history, but the optimism of future collaborations seems to have disappeared, for a lot of reasons that have been debated ad nauseam. Yeah, I think that's a huge regret.

If Mike regrets that smiley smile, Friends and Wild Honey eras that really is a shame. Mike did some of his best work on the latter two albums, especially Wild Honey. So what if they bombed commercially, can't he be proud of the incredible music they created (assuming he does regret those albums, we're just guessing)

You make a great point about Mike's bitterns regarding Brian's solo career. One thing we're glossing over is Mike's anger toward BWPS. I'm sure that stung him, especially the decision to not use his lyrics on Good Vibes. I'm sure a lot of that anger towards Brian's camp (because we all know they made all the decisions regarding BWPS) carried over to the C50.

One thing I wish I knew. Is it really so hard for Mike to get in a room with Brian and sit at a piano, if so, who's stopping it from happening.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Does anyone else feel Mike secretly has a lot of regrets, like the collapse of smile and all the other things he get sh*t for. I personally do.

He comes across like a broken man in a lot of interviews, you can tell it in his voice.

I've thought about that a lot over the years, and this is my opinion. I think for the most part, Mike feels vindicated about a lot of things and a lot of his choices -- both in his music career and in his life. And, now that I write it, vindicated isn't the best word to use, maybe satisfied is a better term. No, satisfied isn't right either. How about content? Content with his choices, life choices. Mike has seen first hand, hell, he experienced first hand, what happened to Brian and Dennis, the tragedy that was their lives and careers. He's seen bands come and go, rock stars die too young, and other rock stars/musicans broke - and broken. For most of Mike's 72 years, he's been healthy and happy. He has every material thing in the world that he ever dreamed of, and, now, it appears he is surrounded by a loving wife and family. I mean, when you think about it, what more could a man want?

To address specifically Mike's Beach Boys-related regrets, I feel very strongly about two areas. I always felt that Mike felt they blew it with the trifecta of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends. The Beach Boys went from arguably the second most popular band in the world in 1966, to, in three short years, a band let go by their record company, a corporation near bankruptcy, near empty concert halls, and band members/family members splintering. Brian was regressing to the point of contributing about 2-3 songs (or 8-9 minutes of music) a year, Dennis was releasing solo records, Bruce left, and Carl Wilson became the band's producer almost by default. It wasn't supposed to be that way. And, basically they never recovered. Mike made the statement in a documentary, and while he was oversimplifying and not 100% accurate, his statement about "Heroes And Villains" being Brian's last dynamic production - and that was in 1967 - is a pretty powerful statement. And, in many ways, ways that I'm not prepared to debate, that one statement tells you a lot about the career of The Beach Boys.

The other "big regret" that I think still haunts Mike to this day is that his songwriting partnership with Brian Wilson essentially ended in 1980 - 33 years ago. They were only 40 years old. I don't think Mike ever envisioned the day when he would NOT record albums - ALBUMS - with Brian. But, that's what happened. I think Brian's solo career silently killed Mike. Yeah, Mike made the occasional negative comment, but he always had to say things like "Brian's doing his thing now, but we always have a seat available and the door is always open" to remain optimistic. I always thought that Mike was thinking "I hope this is Brian's last solo album and he gives this solo thing up". But, Brian never did; Brian has had a 27 year solo career, and Mike recorded one Beach Boys' album in 20 years. Mike's songwriting years with Brian have now become ancient history. I used to think that Mike would give or do anything - anything - to work with Brian. And I was wrong. Mike now has his "demands", and I think Mike has his demands because he was deeply disappointed, devastated, and I'll even say shocked that he never again worked on an album's worth of songs after Keeping' The Summer Alive. Yeah, "Kokomo" is part of that, too, but I think Mike harbors the regret of what could've been - post 1980. Wasted years of possible Beach Boys' albums, possible hit singles. 33 years, that's a large part of Mike and Brian's adult life. Mike now views his songwriting partnership with Brian as a part of rock & roll history, but the optimism of future collaborations seems to have disappeared, for a lot of reasons that have been debated ad nauseam. Yeah, I think that's a huge regret.

If Mike regrets that smiley smile, Friends and Wild Honey eras that really is a shame. Mike did some of his best work on the latter two albums, especially Wild Honey. So what if they bombed commercially, can't he be proud of the incredible music they created (assuming he does regret those albums, we're just guessing)

You make a great point about Mike's bitterns regarding Brian's solo career. One thing we're glossing over is Mike's anger toward BWPS. I'm sure that stung him, especially the decision to not use his lyrics on Good Vibes. I'm sure a lot of that anger towards Brian's camp (because we all know they made all the decisions regarding BWPS) carried over to the C50.

One thing I wish I knew. Is it really so hard for Mike to get in a room with Brian and sit at a piano, if so, who's stopping it from happening.

I highly doubt he regrets Wild Honey or Friends. He wasn't exactly writing surf/fun in the sun songs and running around looking like he walked off the cover of All Summer Long at that period. He might regret Smiley because it wasn't SMILE (which he probably hoped would come out and be nothing but genius regardless of how he felt about it personally) .....

[Sheriff John Stone]

Does anyone else feel Mike secretly has a lot of regrets, like the collapse of smile and all the other things he get sh*t for. I personally do.

He comes across like a broken man in a lot of interviews, you can tell it in his voice.

I've thought about that a lot over the years, and this is my opinion. I think for the most part, Mike feels vindicated about a lot of things and a lot of his choices -- both in his music career and in his life. And, now that I write it, vindicated isn't the best word to use, maybe satisfied is a better term. No, satisfied isn't right either. How about content? Content with his choices, life choices. Mike has seen first hand, hell, he experienced first hand, what happened to Brian and Dennis, the tragedy that was their lives and careers. He's seen bands come and go, rock stars die too young, and other rock stars/musicans broke - and broken. For most of Mike's 72 years, he's been healthy and happy. He has every material thing in the world that he ever dreamed of, and, now, it appears he is surrounded by a loving wife and family. I mean, when you think about it, what more could a man want?

To address specifically Mike's Beach Boys-related regrets, I feel very strongly about two areas. I always felt that Mike felt they blew it with the trifecta of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends. The Beach Boys went from arguably the second most popular band in the world in 1966, to, in three short years, a band let go by their record company, a corporation near bankruptcy, near empty concert halls, and band members/family members splintering. Brian was regressing to the point of contributing about 2-3 songs (or 8-9 minutes of music) a year, Dennis was releasing solo records, Bruce left, and Carl Wilson became the band's producer almost by default. It wasn't supposed to be that way. And, basically they never recovered. Mike made the statement in a documentary, and while he was oversimplifying and not 100% accurate, his statement about "Heroes And Villains" being Brian's last dynamic production - and that was in 1967 - is a pretty powerful statement. And, in many ways, ways that I'm not prepared to debate, that one statement tells you a lot about the career of The Beach Boys.

The other "big regret" that I think still haunts Mike to this day is that his songwriting partnership with Brian Wilson essentially ended in 1980 - 33 years ago. They were only 40 years old. I don't think Mike ever envisioned the day when he would NOT record albums - ALBUMS - with Brian. But, that's what happened. I think Brian's solo career silently killed Mike. Yeah, Mike made the occasional negative comment, but he always had to say things like "Brian's doing his thing now, but we always have a seat available and the door is always open" to remain optimistic. I always thought that Mike was thinking "I hope this is Brian's last solo album and he gives this solo thing up". But, Brian never did; Brian has had a 27 year solo career, and Mike recorded one Beach Boys' album in 20 years. Mike's songwriting years with Brian have now become ancient history. I used to think that Mike would give or do anything - anything - to work with Brian. And I was wrong. Mike now has his "demands", and I think Mike has his demands because he was deeply disappointed, devastated, and I'll even say shocked that he never again worked on an album's worth of songs after Keeping' The Summer Alive. Yeah, "Kokomo" is part of that, too, but I think Mike harbors the regret of what could've been - post 1980. Wasted years of possible Beach Boys' albums, possible hit singles. 33 years, that's a large part of Mike and Brian's adult life. Mike now views his songwriting partnership with Brian as a part of rock & roll history, but the optimism of future collaborations seems to have disappeared, for a lot of reasons that have been debated ad nauseam. Yeah, I think that's a huge regret.

Very very well put, as usual. But one thing: do you really think Mike regrets Wild Honey: a Brian/Mike showcase for the ages, that fans obsess over and which sold pretty damn well in the day? Or Friends: which sits right there in the little TM, be-robed, bearded, guru Mike period?

Good questions. Did Friends bomb because of its (Friend's) quality, or because fans were turned off by the preceding album, Wild Honey, which they might've purchased on the strength of "Darlin'", and thought it was a return to the "old" Beach Boys, which it wasn't, or for both reasons? How's that for a sentence!

Oh God, this is gonna get me in trouble.... I think after 1966, Mike (and the group) were still behind Brian and following him wherever he was gonna take them. Yes, Mike jumped in with some contributions on Smiley Smile, a lot of contributions on Wild Honey, and a couple more contributions on Friends. And in that respect he might've been content; Mike was now Brian's songwriting partner again. But... OK, here we go...Do you think Smiley Smile, Wild Honey , and Friends contained the type of music that Mike wanted, was it "Beach Boys" music? I'm not talking about the surf & turf stuff, but the Spectorian, Wrecking Crew productions of "Help Me, Rhonda", "California Girls", "Sloop John B", and "Good Vibrations". Those were the songs that took the group to another level, and even Mike Love had to admit that. And, now they were gone. Home studios, drugs, simple songs with guitars strumming or group humming. What happened to The Beach Boys? They were losing fans in droves. I guess Mike was changing, too; you could see that. So maybe he was trying to be hip, too. And like I said, he was still trying to support Brian's musical direction(s). I think things happened so fast, too fast. Look at how fast they went from SMiLE being scrapped into Smiley Smile into Wild Honey. Three entirely different musical directions. I'm rambling here but I'll say this and then duck and hide. I think Wild Honey is a patched together, slightly overrated attempt at a "soul" album which misses the mark, and I think the overall effect hurt Friends.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Does anyone else feel Mike secretly has a lot of regrets, like the collapse of smile and all the other things he get sh*t for. I personally do.

He comes across like a broken man in a lot of interviews, you can tell it in his voice.

I've thought about that a lot over the years, and this is my opinion. I think for the most part, Mike feels vindicated about a lot of things and a lot of his choices -- both in his music career and in his life. And, now that I write it, vindicated isn't the best word to use, maybe satisfied is a better term. No, satisfied isn't right either. How about content? Content with his choices, life choices. Mike has seen first hand, hell, he experienced first hand, what happened to Brian and Dennis, the tragedy that was their lives and careers. He's seen bands come and go, rock stars die too young, and other rock stars/musicans broke - and broken. For most of Mike's 72 years, he's been healthy and happy. He has every material thing in the world that he ever dreamed of, and, now, it appears he is surrounded by a loving wife and family. I mean, when you think about it, what more could a man want?

To address specifically Mike's Beach Boys-related regrets, I feel very strongly about two areas. I always felt that Mike felt they blew it with the trifecta of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends. The Beach Boys went from arguably the second most popular band in the world in 1966, to, in three short years, a band let go by their record company, a corporation near bankruptcy, near empty concert halls, and band members/family members splintering. Brian was regressing to the point of contributing about 2-3 songs (or 8-9 minutes of music) a year, Dennis was releasing solo records, Bruce left, and Carl Wilson became the band's producer almost by default. It wasn't supposed to be that way. And, basically they never recovered. Mike made the statement in a documentary, and while he was oversimplifying and not 100% accurate, his statement about "Heroes And Villains" being Brian's last dynamic production - and that was in 1967 - is a pretty powerful statement. And, in many ways, ways that I'm not prepared to debate, that one statement tells you a lot about the career of The Beach Boys.

The other "big regret" that I think still haunts Mike to this day is that his songwriting partnership with Brian Wilson essentially ended in 1980 - 33 years ago. They were only 40 years old. I don't think Mike ever envisioned the day when he would NOT record albums - ALBUMS - with Brian. But, that's what happened. I think Brian's solo career silently killed Mike. Yeah, Mike made the occasional negative comment, but he always had to say things like "Brian's doing his thing now, but we always have a seat available and the door is always open" to remain optimistic. I always thought that Mike was thinking "I hope this is Brian's last solo album and he gives this solo thing up". But, Brian never did; Brian has had a 27 year solo career, and Mike recorded one Beach Boys' album in 20 years. Mike's songwriting years with Brian have now become ancient history. I used to think that Mike would give or do anything - anything - to work with Brian. And I was wrong. Mike now has his "demands", and I think Mike has his demands because he was deeply disappointed, devastated, and I'll even say shocked that he never again worked on an album's worth of songs after Keeping' The Summer Alive. Yeah, "Kokomo" is part of that, too, but I think Mike harbors the regret of what could've been - post 1980. Wasted years of possible Beach Boys' albums, possible hit singles. 33 years, that's a large part of Mike and Brian's adult life. Mike now views his songwriting partnership with Brian as a part of rock & roll history, but the optimism of future collaborations seems to have disappeared, for a lot of reasons that have been debated ad nauseam. Yeah, I think that's a huge regret.

Very very well put, as usual. But one thing: do you really think Mike regrets Wild Honey: a Brian/Mike showcase for the ages, that fans obsess over and which sold pretty damn well in the day? Or Friends: which sits right there in the little TM, be-robed, bearded, guru Mike period?

Good questions. Did Friends bomb because of its (Friend's) quality, or because fans were turned off by the preceding album, Wild Honey, which they might've purchased on the strength of "Darlin'", and thought it was a return to the "old" Beach Boys, which it wasn't, or for both reasons? How's that for a sentence!

Oh God, this is gonna get me in trouble.... I think after 1966, Mike (and the group) were still behind Brian and following him wherever he was gonna take them. Yes, Mike jumped in with some contributions on Smiley Smile, a lot of contributions on Wild Honey, and a couple more contributions on Friends. And in that respect he might've been content; Mike was now Brian's songwriting partner again. But... OK, here we go...Do you think Smiley Smile, Wild Honey , and Friends contained the type of music that Mike wanted, was it "Beach Boys" music? I'm not talking about the surf & turf stuff, but the Spectorian, Wrecking Crew productions of "Help Me, Rhonda", "California Girls", "Sloop John B", and "Good Vibrations". Those were the songs that took the group to another level, and even Mike Love had to admit that. And, now they were gone. Home studios, drugs, simple songs with guitars strumming or group humming. What happened to The Beach Boys? They were losing fans in droves. I guess Mike was changing, too; you could see that. So maybe he was trying to be hip, too. And like I said, he was still trying to support Brian's musical direction(s). I think things happened so fast, too fast. Look at how fast they went from SMiLE being scrapped into Smiley Smile into Wild Honey. Three entirely different musical directions. I'm rambling here but I'll say this and then duck and hide. I think Wild Honey is a patched together, slightly overrated attempt at a "soul" album which misses the mark, and I think the overall effect hurt Friends.

I think you're on the money, but IF Mike was thinking that way at the time.... Seems he was almost as weird as Brian at that point. I think, if anything, he might have been happy enough that they weren't out on their asses in the street, considering the recent shake-ups. I think Mike might have been at his most content and maybe even a bit humbled to be a Beach Boy at that time. Others were stepping forward to contribute in great quantity and he didn't seem to mind..... The sort of Mike OSD hates was to come later...