Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000

[Chocolate Shake Man]

James W. Douglass is a charlatan and a fraud. Period. He should be taken as seriously as any rabid Holocaust denier and it is somewhat unfair to Holocaust deniers to draw a comparison between them and Douglass. At least they are typically only confined to one absurd conspiracy theory, but Douglass spreads his charlantanry all over the map to whatever the least conspiracy fad is. But what they do have in common is that they can make entirely groundless, fabricated, insulting and inhumane theories  sound exciting.

[ash]

Fair enough. Maybe we could discuss The Warmth Of The Sun instead !

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Actually this has probably come up before but I am curious if anyone has any thoughts about considering what Heroes and Villains might have sounded like at particular stages. What might a fall Heroes have sounded like? How about a December version? January? February?

[seltaeb1012002]

Actually this has probably come up before but I am curious if anyone has any thoughts about considering what Heroes and Villains might have sounded like at particular stages. What might a fall Heroes have sounded like? How about a December version? January? February?

I made an edit of what an early H&V might have sounded like. https://vimeo.com/51757254

[Cam Mott]

Jules Siegel was one who thought he might have gotten the whole album on acetate back in the day, but they had been lost/stolen. I'm thinking they probably got acetates from some of the comp tapes with some of the various tracks like the ones that still exist.

[KittyKat]

What precedent would Brian have for making a two-sided single? More than one Beach Boys two-song singles had hits with both the A and B sides, such as "Wouldn't It Be Nice" and "God Only Knows." That fact alone may have discouraged him from wanting to create two sides with one song, if he ever thought of it. The only two sided single I can think of from that era is "Sky Pilot" by the Animals, but that wasn't until 1968.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

What precedent would Brian have for making a two-sided single?

What precedent would Brian have for most of the stuff he was doing at that time?

[Mikie]

One more pop here, and I'll step aside to let the guys here debate whether there were two sides to Heroes & Villains and if the Barnyard segment was indeed intended for the song. Oh, and the other theory that's been debated to death over the years - whether there was ever a 12 minute version recorded (as was rumored way back in the late 70's when I first heard parts of Smile on a cassette tape). I always questioned the Good Vibrations melody played by an instrument in the middle of H & V myself.

Thanks, Rock&Roll. Dunno about an expert, but I sure have read many, many books/articles/documents on the subject since 1964!

Was all ready to take Sr. Potatohead and Ash up on the recommendation to read "JFK And The Unspeakable" but then Rock&Roll called the author a fraud.    Anybody who denies there was a Holocaust looses a little credibility with me.  But I'll be sure to look for excerpts on the book and give it a chance.

P.S. RFK Jr. has always been a conspiracy theorist. He believes a second gunman was involved, and his Dad thought maybe organized crime had something to do with it. RFK publicly supported the Warren Commission but privately had doubts about some of their findings.

Sorry to derail you guys, but couldn't help myself!  

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Was all ready to take Sr. Potatohead and Ash up on the recommendation to read "JFK And The Unspeakable" but then Rock&Roll called the author a fraud.    Anybody who denies there was a Holocaust looses a little credibility with me. But I'll be sure look for excerpts on the book and give it a chance.

Just want to quickly say that Douglass hasn't denied the Holocaust. He is a Kennedy and 9/11 conspiracy theorist though which, to me, only dramatically contributes to the irrationality of thinking at large.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Anyone here remember "Barnyard Billy" and if so, are we still quite certain we want to make Brian the final authority on these questions?

[Mikie]

Rock&Roll, Douglass and Oliver Stone are probably good buddies.

[Mikie]

Fair enough. Maybe we could discuss The Warmth Of The Sun instead !

There's a little controversy there, too, about which day it was actually written!

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Rock&Roll, Douglass and Oliver Stone are probably good buddies.

Funny you should mention it:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/oliver-stone/jfk-and-the-unspeakable_b_243924.html  

[Tricycle Rider]

Anyone here remember "Barnyard Billy" and if so, are we still quite certain we want to make Brian the final authority on these questions?

On October 1, 2012 Alan Boyd said that "Barnyard" was to be about this character 'Barnyard Billy' that loved his chickens, and that it was to be a part of "Heroes And Villains".

[guitarfool2002]

What precedent would Brian have for making a two-sided single? More than one Beach Boys two-song singles had hits with both the A and B sides, such as "Wouldn't It Be Nice" and "God Only Knows." That fact alone may have discouraged him from wanting to create two sides with one song, if he ever thought of it. The only two sided single I can think of from that era is "Sky Pilot" by the Animals, but that wasn't until 1968.

I mentioned two earlier in this thread which were very big hits: Fingertips by "Little" Stevie Wonder and What I'd Say by Ray Charles. They were songs where the band continued jamming after the unofficial 3 minute or so ending point of most 45rpm sides, so instead of cutting all that great stuff out - which in Stevie Wonder's case is/was some of the best impromptu R&B soul jamming of the 60's on that one song - they faded out the A side and continued the song on the B side. That way DJ's still had a compact single to spin on the radio, but those who wanted to hear the full version could flip the record over.

So there definitely was precedent for the two-sided 45rpm release, in the case of Ray Charles that was out almost a decade before Brian tackled Heroes.

[guitarfool2002]

Well, the question becomes - who would that be? David Leaf, his at-the-time best friend, and Van Dyke (dude loves Van Dyke) can't get decent answers out of him in that doc. He has known Mark Linett for over 20 years, and TSS is what it is.


I don't know what you're suggesting really - that no-one is interested in asking about Brian's supposed GRAND PLAN about Smile? Like, are you sure? For forty years, no-one's really cared? The Beach Boys in 1972? BW's management in 1980-2011?

Might just be easier to be real about this - he's forgotten, if he ever knew. If he had a grand plan, he might well have finished the damn thing in 1966.

Smile scholar I'm not.  whether Brian had a grand plan, I don't know either.
What I do know:  Coach told me many many many times that Brian remembered/remembers everything. He said that if he wants, he could tell you what instrument was played/ by whom/ on what day/studio etc for any/every session he ever did.    I have to believe that applies as much to Smile as anything; after all, Smile was one of Bob's best subjects! ( Miss you,dude! )
 The trick of the trick is getting Brian to want to tell.  Good luck on that. 

With all respect to Bob Hanes, I think that's at best EXTREMELY wishful thinking. Brian Wilson isn't a MENSA level genius with nigh on total recall. He's a smart dude, but NO-ONE remembers exactly what they were doing on a Tuesday afternoon forty years ago. He's not a safe waiting to be cracked. He may have a good memory (and we've seen evidence of that when he's in a good mood), but he's not the fucking rain man or something.

Point 1: We don't know what Brian was discussing or what he and Bob were talking about, do we? Perhaps the minute Smile details we're all hoping to read never came up in those talks, maybe it did, we just don't know every word that was spoken. Therefore Bob's statement might not apply as broadly across topics as some of us might want or assume.

Point 2: This is from a man who actually sat down in a casual setting with Brian and had a chat...naturally it's not possible for most of us to remember what we had for dinner last Tuesday let alone details of something four decades ago, but Bob obviously saw what he saw and heard what he heard and shared his experience with a few people. Is that different from someone clutching a stack of memorabilia and Beach Boy knick-knacks who asked Brian a question at an autograph cattle-call session and didn't get a straight answer from him? Obviously - apples and oranges, as I believe was the same case when we've seen some televised interviews where the information just isn't as free-flowing or a descriptive as we may have wanted it to be.

Trying to guess what or why Brian remembers things as he does is getting us *so far away* from the topics and the points that it doesn't seem as worthwhile to cast doubt on someone's description of Brian's memory as it would to focus on finding the answers with the channels we do have available, and those too often aren't being looked at close enough.

In my opinion.

[Tricycle Rider]

Not to get too far off topic but, I wonder who bought Durrie Park's acetates? 

[guitarfool2002]

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular: Sometimes the way a rollicking Smile discussion and exchange of theories and ideas gets sidetracked by questions about someone's validity-reliability-memory or whatever the case may be reminds me of an archaeologist searching for the lost buried treasure who complains about the poorly drawn map and the bad directions he got from his guide as he's standing directly over the exact spot where the treasure is buried.

[ash]

Actually this has probably come up before but I am curious if anyone has any thoughts about considering what Heroes and Villains might have sounded like at particular stages. What might a fall Heroes have sounded like? How about a December version? January? February?

Someone  probably has done something along those lines before but let's get together and do it again.
FWIW here's my take on the evolution of Heroes. Sorry if it's an incoherent mess but you can blame Brian and the Columbia Studios tape filing system for that (and certainly not Oswald !)

1/  May 11th 1966 version - unknown quantity . Some talk of it including You Are My Sunshine although i think this came from Al Kooper (not known as a druggy so possibly more reliable than others but this was decades after the event) and he said something like he heard a version of Heroes which seemed to include interpolations of You Are My Sunshine. Could he mean one of the versions with the Bicycle Rider riff (gee dit dit heroes and villains etc.). Is the Bicycle Rider theme (G G Fsharp G D) similar or even technically an interpolation of My Only Sunshine (G Fsharp G D D) ? 2.45 long. This version could also theoretically have been the same as or similar to -

2/  October to December 13th - ish - I'm In Great Shape/Barnyard version. Possibly structured as per Cantina or at least similar. This is prime time Smile and i'd consider this version critical. Dec 13th is last known use of master 56727 (until june 67)

3/  December 19th - The missing tape recorded today uses the new master number 57020. WTF was recorded today i'd sure like to know. Features strings plus Hal and Bill Pittman. Is this the start of an entirely new version. Brian also records Dada on Dec 22nd possibly as part of this and is the Chimes Heroes part 3  recorded at this time ? Sure as hell doesn't seem to fit anywhere else Brian.
A number of vocal sessions ensue as the pressure mounts for Xmas and then January deadline. Of course these may have been additions to the Great Shape version. Additional work may have been carried out dec 27 and 28th or these could have been work for what i have labelled 4/... This doesn't give BW long to re-formulate the song though. Could the jan 3 comp reel be from late dec and jan 3rd ?

4/  Late December?  to January 3rd - we have the Jan 3rd comp reel (do a lot,bag of tricks,bridge to Indians,All Day (again !) etc.). Might this include the Bar room Brawl ? Jan 5th sees the overdub for Bicycle rider (in G minor as per Worms) labelled as part 2. Maybe this version was considered finished as no work is done for 3 weeks. There's a lot of material here - is this Vosse's 2 parts but not edited together version see also feb/march ? Of course BW may have needed time to rewrite hence the break from jan 5th to 27th.
    
Does anyone else suspect that bridge to Indians leads to Bicycle Rider  (jan 5th) OR that by the 3rd BW considered Heroes finished and moved on to other tracks   dubbing Worms (accidentally ?) logged as Heroes part 2 but actually Worms Part 2…..this is total speculation on my part but there is precedent--the Child verse remake logged as Cabin Essence for example), re-recording Wonderful on the 9th Jan etc.
Seemingly no action on "version 4" after the 3rd or 5th Jan save for the canned "experimental" session jan 20th marked do not use.

5/  January 27th 67 - The Cantina version (along with an all day section) which appears to be satisfactory at least for a few days. Master Jan 31st ? and then some slight revisions Feb 7th. Mike to Brian vocals ?? Last work poss the Cantina overdub feb 7th. Of course this might originally have featured a barroom brawl "in the cantina". Or it might not have. Anyway we have the / a Cantina version from here.

6/  February 15th (?)- BW records Prelude to Fade which indicates he has changed his mind  about the suitability of the Cantina version to some extent. He also records another Bicycle Rider variant (A flat minor to C sharp a more Heroes friendly key than the G minor recorded jan 5th) plus bits as heard on Smile Sessions on Feb 16th.

4 days later….

7/  Feb 20th -  Part 2 is revised (previously the Cantina). The Gee/dit dit heroes and villains  variations are recorded. They could go after the accapella verse to replace Cantina. This could be the long version ?? sessions continue (vocally) 21st,24th (BW only) and 26th.

8 ? /  Feb 27th - From here to march 2nd Brian records another Bicycle Rider bit (the Heroes single chorus track in E flat minor) , the intro (in F as per Iron Horse but ending on A flat 7th (listen to the organ)), fade and a new verse finishing on March 2nd. Of course these may have been a continuation and or revisions for the Feb Gee version but it's worth noting that no vocals (save Carl's scat singing on fade) are recorded as far as we know. This could also represent the Vosse Part 1 Part 2 "we knew what it was but it was not edited together" (paraphrase)  version.

Of course versions 6 to 8 could all be part of the same version with a few junked sections.

At this point Brian's 6 month bummer ends as he stops work on Heroes. Or did he have the version he wanted ?

9/  Finally the Smiley Smile version tracked as 56727 according to the Smile Sessions book but released as 57020. Alan Boyd MAY  have uncovered a slightly longer version of this during Smile Sessions . Am i right that he mentioned something like that ?  Could this have been the version Keith Altham heard that seemed about 6 minutes long. If you stick False Barnyard on the end (for example) and smoke a doobie it would certainly feel like it was 6  minutes long !


Anyway...
We have to remember that between versions BW must have had enough time to write and arrange the new sections. I think each time he went into the studio he had a definite plan. It might not have come off but there was a plan.

Also..
Verse 1,2,my children were raised and accapella verse appear to be common to all versions as far as we can tell though there's no direct evidence for my children or accapella  in version 1.  They certainly appear to be the non-variants during the Heroes saga. Where to go after verse 2 is the big problem hence all the Part 2's.

Is that clear ?
Over to you Brian.
oh and who exactly did buy those acetates and did Durrie find the videotapes she said she also had in storage ?

[Mikie]

GF, nothing like getting it from the horse's mouth, though. But I don't think Brian will divulge anymore information about Smile during his lifetime than what is already out there. I really don't. Somebody up the thread mentioned interviewing Al Jardine. Hell, he no more knows what Brian was intending to do with all those pieces and framents and takes than Marilyn Wilson! I witnessed Al first hand forgetting the words to Vegetables! I was standing there in 2004 at Brian's Smile concert in S.F listening to David Anderle and Frank Holmes and the most they talked about was Brian's humor and smoking a lot of hash. They couldn't remember sh*t about what segment of music went where in Smile. And if Van Dyke Parks knows something other than what's he's written about already, he sure ain't talkin'!

[guitarfool2002]

GF, nothing like getting it from the horse's mouth, though. But I don't think Brian will divulge anymore information about Smile during his lifetime than what is already out there. I really don't. Somebody up the thread mentioned interviewing Al Jardine. Hell, he no more knows what Brian was intending to do with all those pieces and framents and takes than Marilyn Wilson! I witnessed Al first hand forgetting the words to Vegetables! I was standing there in 2004 at Brian's Smile concert in S.F listening to David Anderle and Frank Holmes and the most they talked about was Brian's humor and smoking a lot of hash. They couldn't remember sh*t about what segment of music went where in Smile. And if Van Dyke Parks knows something other than what's he's written about already, he sure ain't talkin'!

I agree, Mikie, especially about Brian and most especially about trying to uncover a great secret from Al, who simply was not there as much as some other folks who are still alive...and who have talked! yet sometimes they get challenged or their dates get mixed up or whatever else is the trigger and their word gets impugned while we're twiddling our thumbs instead waiting for Al or Bruce to reveal some "Ark Of The Covenant"-like acetate which they're rumored to have...it's a crazy scene, this Smile stuff.

I got the impression from a few previous interviews that there are still things which are known but simply not discussed, and I mean beyond song orders and what version of Heroes goes where kind of things...reference Van Dyke, Mark Volman, there are some things which are not said about Smile, at least in a published way.

Those things whatever they may be are what I think are the most maddening and fascinating parts.

[Mikie]

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular: Sometimes the way a rollicking Smile discussion and exchange of theories and ideas gets sidetracked by questions about someone's validity-reliability-memory or whatever the case may be reminds me of an archaeologist searching for the lost buried treasure who complains about the poorly drawn map and the bad directions he got from his guide as he's standing directly over the exact spot where the treasure is buried.

Not so sure it's sidetracking when you question a source of information. For example, do you question Badman's credibility? Or even someone who was there (Anderle, Vosse, Williams, Siegel). What/Who's information would you validate first - someone who was there or somebody who wasn't even born in the Smile era and was relaying info second hand? An author's interview with the source (or close to it) one of the group members, a musician, or engineer who witnessed it? It's been a long time. Memories fade and plays tricks on you. So does hash.  

[Mikie]

I agree, Mikie, especially about Brian and most especially about trying to uncover a great secret from Al, who simply was not there as much as some other folks who are still alive...and who have talked! yet sometimes they get challenged or their dates get mixed up or whatever else is the trigger and their word gets impugned while we're twiddling our thumbs instead waiting for Al or Bruce to reveal some "Ark Of The Covenant"-like acetate which they're rumored to have...it's a crazy scene, this Smile stuff.

Bruce is another one. While Al remembers being embarrassed crawling on the floor making animal noises, Bruce wasn't around very much for the Smile sessions, was he? Most of what he knows he probably learned from someone else who was there. What did Bruce do, sing backgrounds on "Love To Say Dada" and "Wonderful"? What else. He sure didn't smoke dope with the key writers/players there. Was careful not to step in Banana's dog crap in the sandbox wearing his white tennis shoes, and the Indian tee-pee scared him. Hell, if I wore white shorts and V-neck sweaters and stood there waving and clapping along with the music, I'd be scared too....

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

I agree, Mikie, especially about Brian and most especially about trying to uncover a great secret from Al, who simply was not there as much as some other folks who are still alive...and who have talked! yet sometimes they get challenged or their dates get mixed up or whatever else is the trigger and their word gets impugned while we're twiddling our thumbs instead waiting for Al or Bruce to reveal some "Ark Of The Covenant"-like acetate which they're rumored to have...it's a crazy scene, this Smile stuff.

Bruce is another one. While Al remembers being embarrassed crawling on the floor making animal noises, Bruce wasn't around very much for the Smile sessions, was he? Most of what he knows he probably learned from someone else who was there. What did Bruce do, sing backgrounds on "Love To Say Dada" and "Wonderful"? What else. He sure didn't smoke dope with the key writers/players there. Was careful not to step in Banana's dog crap in the sandbox wearing his white tennis shoes, and the Indian tee-pee scared him. Hell, if I wore white shorts and V-neck sweaters and stood there waving and clapping along with the music, I'd be scared too....

Bruce was definitely around and surely saw a lot. But will he really tell it like it is?  

Sure, on those rose-colored Smile video clips that appeared on youtube, Bruce is all, "Oh, such brilliant song bites" and "Teenage symphony to God? What a great concept" etc but here's the same man quoted in Mojo magazine circa 1995:

"There's tracks on the box set that represent not a great lost album but the worst times we ever went through. I listen to them and I don't feel any joy. [...]  Brian degraded us, made us lay down for hours and make barnyard noises, demoralized us, freaked out. I can't tell you a lot of it, it's really f***ed up. He thought it was hilarious, he was stoned and laughing. We hated him then because we didn't know what was happening to him."

He sure seemed pretty mad. So either Bruce has mellowed since then or he merely changed his tune since there was product to push. At any rate, he sure sounds like he has some very distinct memories of various sessions.

[SMiLE Brian]

Bruce wasn't made for these times....