Beach Boys vs Beatles in the same years

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Similarly, although Macca was by far a better composer than Lennon......

Does anyone else here really hate it when people present their opinions as fact?

'Cos I completely disagree. I think Lennon's chord changes, melodies and his inventive use of unusual time signatures far surpass most of Paul's efforts. I'm not a great Beatles fan anyway, but to me, songs like Julia, and Sexy Sadie, beat Yesterday and Eleanor Rigby hands down in a compositional sense.

Though it's all crap compared to Brian, IMO

[hypehat]

Would you care to explain your last sentence? How was what was coming out of the Brill Building not rock and roll? Not all Brill Building was Neil Sedaka pop.

I mean, after all, Lou Reed got his start in the 'Brill Building'....

Brian's 'rock' still maintains the unique chord sequences and harmonies of his 'pop' - what changed was his proficiency of arrangement, mostly, with the wrecking crew affording him that luxury.

And even then, just because it doesn't have prominent guitars doesn't mean it doesn't rock! Good Vibrations, WIBN, Heroes and Villains, Wind Chimes... these are heavy tunes, everyone is playing them heavily.... they rock! They just don't have guitars.

[drbeachboy]

Would you care to explain your last sentence? How was what was coming out of the Brill Building not rock and roll? Not all Brill Building was Neil Sedaka pop.

I mean, after all, Lou Reed got his start in the 'Brill Building'....

Brian's 'rock' still maintains the unique chord sequences and harmonies of his 'pop' - what changed was his proficiency of arrangement, mostly, with the wrecking crew affording him that luxury.

And even then, just because it doesn't have prominent guitars doesn't mean it doesn't rock! Good Vibrations, WIBN, Heroes and Villains, Wind Chimes... these are heavy tunes, everyone is playing them heavily.... they rock! They just don't have guitars.

Wouldn't It Be Nice, love them rockin' accordians. Has to be a rock and roll first.

[filledeplage]

(Early) 63 - Please Please Me. I will add that the best tracks from Surfin' USA and Surfin' Safari would make it a fair tie.

(Late) 63 - Gonna have to go with the Beatles here, too. Again, though, I will say that Surfer Girl combined with LDC would make a killer album. I don't blame the Beach Boys or Brian at all - three albums a year means you have to skimp on consistency a bit.

(Early) 64 - Shut Down Vol. II vs. Beatles for Sale - I know this is technically out of order, but it would be criminal to compare Shut Down w/ Hard Days Night and All Summer Long w/ Beatles for Sale. I'd have to go with Beatles For Sale here, though. The filler isn't nearly as annoying on that.

(Late) 64 - I'll have to call this a tie. All Summer Long has stronger high points, but it's too short and there's that damn filler at the end. Hard Days Night may have a lot more fluff, but it's more consistent. Could you imagine All Summer Long combined with the strong points of Shut Down Vol. II, though?

(Early) 65 - Help! vs. Today! - I'll have to go with Today, simply because it's such a massive leap forward compared to the minimal advancement on Help. It is close, though.

(Late) 65 - Summer Days vs. Rubber Soul - Yeah, I'm gonna have to go with Rubber Soul. It DID inspire Brian to record Pet Sounds, after all. This is when both bands started to enter into the halls of timelessness. It's interesting to note, too, that this is the first time either band avoids their typical filler (no covers on Rubber Soul, no talking skits on Summer Days).

66 - Pet Sounds vs. Revolver. This is when both bands start taking things seriously. Revolver is one of the greatest albums in the history of rock music, but Pet Sounds may just be the GREATEST, so I'm definitely going with the former over the latter, simply because it's a bit more timeless than Revolver, and it has more of that dammed emotional resonance.

(Early) 67 - Sgt. Pepper vs. SMiLE - Hoo boy. This is the tough one. The biggest released album ever versus the biggest UNreleased album ever. I'd have to give the award to Pepper simply for being complete, but I will say that a SMiLE finished as it should've been would have stolen the title, no contest, so I guess it's more of a tie than anything else. Sometimes I wonder how an album full of SMiLE holdovers ala Who's Next would've looked like.

(Late) 67 - (American) Magical Mystery Tour vs. Wild Honey - Tie. Flying is a bit fillerish, but Wild Honey is shorter, so it evens itself out.

68 - White Album vs. Friends - White Album. Sorry guys. I'm probably one of the biggest post SMiLE Beach Boy supporter you'll ever see, but in terms of sheer objective quality, the White Album dominates (despite that silly Revolution 9 excursion near the end). Not to mention it's literally three times longer.

69 - Abbey Road vs. 20/20 - Abbey Road, no question. Both albums are absolutely wonderful, though. But Abbey Road is the Beatles' final swan song. Sometimes I wonder how a proper early 70's Beach Boys swan song album might've looked.

70 - Sunflower vs. Let it Be - Sunflower. Too much damn Phil Spector on Let it Be. And you can tell that the Beatles' soul isn't in it throughout the whole album.

So the Beatles got a bit more victories in the same years. It certainly isn't the Beach Boys' fault, they just had an issue with properly ordering their albums and kicking out the filler. Carl or Dennis not blooming fully until '70 has an impact, too - and I will say that Surf's Up, Carl and the Passions, Holland, and Love You are all absolutely wonderful.

Curtis - I really enjoyed reading your analysis...I am going to stretch this time-line a little...I sort of put Rubber Soul up against Pet Sounds and the only way I could justify the time line is to almost bring it into a "fiscal-year" model which runs from July 1st (1965) to June 30th (1966) which would bring those two against one another in that context.  Sort of a "B.C. v. A.D." analysis, Pet Sounds/Rubber Soul being the lines of demarcation forwards and backwards.  I have always had  the impression that Brian's Pet Sounds was his "response" to Rubber Soul.  A fiscal year calendar would permit that.   It also re-designates the images of both bands, from teen idols to serious artists, making a mark on society as a whole.  

*replaced "calender" (a machine in paper making) for "calendar"- the correct spelling.  Mea culpa - incorrect spelling!

[harrisonjon]

Fair enough. I am defining rock and roll in a narrow sense of something that sounds quite primitive and as if it is about to spin out of control (edgy as 'on the edge') but you can also define it as a particular kind of beat and swing that Fun Fun Fun definitely has. Another way might be to say that the Beach Boys comes from the rhythm side of R&B than the shouter side that was derived from gospel and which The Beatles got via Ray Charles etc. Brian seems to me to come from a smoother harmonic tradition than that, as do Goffin & King and Bacharach & David (but not Lieber & Stoller or Doc Pomus, who were the harder side of the Brill Building)

[Mike's Beard]

I'd say John was the best songwriter of the group when they first started. By 1968 he was the third best.

[I. Spaceman]

If one is to play the utterly silly comparison game, comparing the groups in question's singles output is much more to the point. For most of the 60's, both bands considered their major output to be singles, not albums. And in the future, songs will be the major criteria for judging an artist, rather than the album as "statement" model, which I believe gets more antiquated by the year, and is used to unfairly judge the work of artists who don't intend their work to be seen in that way.

[18thofMay]

I'd say John was the best songwriter of the group when they first started. By 1968 he was the third best.

I do not agree.

[runnersdialzero]

Does anyone else here really hate it when people present their opinions as fact?

Well who else's opinion is it other than the person who's stating it? We know it's their opinion as it's coming out of their mouth/fingers/b'hole. Does everything really need to be followed with "imo"?

imo.

Also, Paul wins all for writing "Temporary Secretary", which is better than like 90% of Beatles songs I've heard. Not better than Brian, of course, but of the Beatles, I like Paul quite a bit. So many of John's songs just make me feel like I've smoked some absolutely horrid weed. At least several of the the mid/late-60s songs of his, anyway. John's not a bad kid, mind you, and he's written some great stuff, I just very much prefer Paul's work.

imo.

[MBE]

I think its interesting to line up the time lines and look at the Beatles and BBs music this way. A lot of Beatles fans will say, "give me Strawberry Fields over I Get Around any day", well umm yeah! And BB fans say, "give me Pet Sounds over Hard Days Night any day!" Well, yeah!

Anyway, here is a list of the albums released around the same time. Maybe we could do the same with the singles.

Early 63:Surfing USA vs Please Please Me

late 63: Little Douce Coupe vs With the Beatles
Early 64: Shut Down II vs Meet the Beatles

mid 64: All Summer Long vs Hard Days Night

late 64: Christmas LP vs Beatles for Sale
mid 65: Today and SDSN vs Help!

late 65: Party vs Rubber Soul
mid 66: Pet Sounds vs Revolver

mid 67: SMiLE sessions vs Sgt Pepper

late 67: Smiley Smile and Wild Honey vs Magical Mystery Tour

68: Friends vs White Album

69: 20/20 vs Abbey Road

70: Sunflower vs Let it Be

When I have more time, I will listen more to see which I like better. (I know this is unfair being on a BB board, but I love both bands).

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Fair enough. I am defining rock and roll in a narrow sense of something that sounds quite primitive and as if it is about to spin out of control (edgy as 'on the edge') but you can also define it as a particular kind of beat and swing that Fun Fun Fun definitely has. Another way might be to say that the Beach Boys comes from the rhythm side of R&B than the shouter side that was derived from gospel and which The Beatles got via Ray Charles etc. Brian seems to me to come from a smoother harmonic tradition than that, as do Goffin & King and Bacharach & David (but not Lieber & Stoller or Doc Pomus, who were the harder side of the Brill Building)

Wild Honey live with Blondie Chaplin
All I Want to Do
Student Demo

[vintagemusic]

It's an impossible question really. For numerous reasons.

The Beatles could do more things. They could rock much better
and harder. They got into more styles of music than the Beach Boys
such as Harrison's eastern songs, and more avante gard with backwards
guitars and technology. They Had three great writers, they had George
Martin to help. I could go on.

On the other hand, all things considered, after mulling it over I tend to believe
that Pet Sounds and SMiLE is the best one two punch in the history of pop or
rock or whatever you want to call it.

Pet Sounds and SMiLe are better than Revolver and Sgt Pepper. Thats quite
a statement.

Many people won't agree however, because the Beach Boys  didin't have tough
rock songs like the Beatles. Half of Smile doesn't even have drums on it. But still
the sheer majesty of Hero's and Villans , Surf's Up and Good Vibrations trumps Pepper
period.

Other than those two, the Beatles win easily, Help rubber Soul, the White Album Abbey Road
they win hands down, against the respective Beach Boys albums.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

No No No

[Smilin Ed H]

Can't someone just repost this fucking thread to the Hoffman board so we can get on with more important things?

[vintagemusic]

Can't someone just repost this f*cking thread to the Hoffman board so we can get on with more important things?

Oh thats nasty.

It's a fun question which band is better during the sixties.
But there is no absolute or real answer. It cant be answered
not really.

I'd say the Beatles overall, because they were more diverse.
But many especially here, will disagree.


On the other hand SMiLe has more great songs on it than Pepper
I wouldn't say Surf's Up is better than a Day In The Life, but Pepper
doesn't have as many great songs as SMiLE

A similar case can be made for Revolver vs Pet Sounds.     

It's all subjective. There is no right answer.

[runnersdialzero]

and more avante gard with backwards guitars and technology

Technology which makes some of their music sound very dated, and not in any charming way.

They Had three great writers, they had George Martin to help. I could go on.

I still say it took three great writers and a George Martin, and they still couldn't top Brian by himself as both a writer and producer. Add in the other guys, namely Dennis, and there's no question who was better, in my mind.

Just me.

[Mahalo]

I wouldn't say Surf's Up is better than a Day In The Life

I would, x 10. A Day in the Life is an artist and a band trying to sound psycodelic...(for Tobelman)...Surf's Up is Psycodelia realized, personified, deified, and rectified all in one. No friggin' comparison...besides, Surf's up is still unfinished....

and more avante gard with backwards guitars and technology

Technology which makes some of their music sound very dated, and not in any charming way.

They Had three great writers, they had George Martin to help. I could go on.

I still say it took three great writers and a George Martin, and they still couldn't top Brian by himself as both a writer and producer. Add in the other guys, namely Dennis, and there's no question who was better, in my mind.

Just me.

Exactly. Well put.

[vintagemusic]

yeah everybody can have an opinion. It's all valid.

I could parry with some answers and dispute your conclusions,
as anything more than opinion. Frankly I think both bands and
the songs and albums in question are high art. To Dismiss either
A Day In The life, Pepper or Surf's Up or SMiLe is a fools business.

Brian Wilson could do things McCartney and Lennon could not.
and the reverse is true also. I think it becomes more a matter
of personal taste. We are in my opinion talking about the greatest
genius minds in the history of contemporary music. To dismiss either
Lennon or Wilson or McCartney is just foolish.

Wilson may indeed be a better composer than either Lennon or McCartney
I don't agree with you, but your view has merit. But there is only one Brian
Wilson and both Lennon and McCartney, and even Harrison wrote classic
hall of fame songs. Which overall makes for a stronger group.. So what you
are saying is a weakness, oh well it takes three Beatles to do what Wilson did,
well there were three Beatles capable of doing that.. Certainly there were not
three Beach boys capable of writing songs like that on a consistent level.

Furthermore you discount the importance of lyrics. The Beatles could all write them
the Beach boys were a bit spotty and needed to add or bring in people to write
lyrics because they couldn't do that on their own. Or play the tracks on their own.

So you see you can make an argument for anything either point of view. The fact is
they are both the chopins or stravinskys or Beethovens of their age.  Who is better
Van Gogh or Picasso ? the correct answer, they are both so good it defies comparison....

But then thats just my opinion.

The poster asked which band is better in what year or corresponding album. So I answered
the question as truthfully as I could based on my belief. Pet Sounds and SMiLe trump Pepper
and Revolver, but in the other years and overall, the Beatles trump the Beach Boys because of
more diversity, more songwriters and a better ability to rock.

as far as the Beatles backewards guitars and things being dated, I disagree with that as well.

I love them both and along with a handful of other people, Simon and Garfunkel, Bob Dylan, early
CSNY, The WHO the Stones., these are the best people who ever lived in the history of modern music.
thats just my view.

and of all those people the best were Wilson and the Beatles. You don't have to agree, but try and have an
objective view.

[Mahalo]

All it comes down to is this IMO: The Beatles were the better band. In the sense of 4 guys rocking and writing Rock n' Roll tunes. No question about it. .... on the other hand... the Avante Garde belongs not to the White Album but to Smiley Smile onwards....

[Alan Smith]

Up until the recent controversial Smile Sessions release (around November this year, fyi), the Beatles ruled - totally turned on head with said November release,  Wilson is the baby in the manger

[vintagemusic]

Up until the recent controversial Smile Sessions release (around November this year, fyi), the Beatles ruled - totally turned on head with said November release,  Wilson is the baby in the manger

That's a pretty good synopsis. I can see that. I don't think the truth is quite that simple
but that's pretty well put.


It also creates an incredible one, two punch of historic back to back albums. More really
but Pet Sounds and Smile in particular.

[shelter]

Early 63:Surfing USA vs Please Please Me = PLEASE PLEASE ME
late 63: Little Douce Coupe vs With the Beatles = LITTLE DEUCE COUPE
Early 64: Shut Down II vs Meet the Beatles = SHUT DOWN VOL. 2
mid 64: All Summer Long vs Hard Days Night = ALL SUMMER LONG
late 64: Christmas LP vs Beatles for Sale = BEATLES FOR SALE
mid 65: Today and SDSN vs Help! = TODAY & SD(&SN)
late 65: Party vs Rubber Soul = RUBBER SOUL
mid 66: Pet Sounds vs Revolver = PET SOUNDS
mid 67: SMiLE sessions vs Sgt Pepper = SMILE SESSIONS
late 67: Smiley Smile and Wild Honey vs Magical Mystery Tour  = MAGICAL MYSTERY TOUR
68: Friends vs White Album = FRIENDS
69: 20/20 vs Abbey Road = ABBEY ROAD
70: Sunflower vs Let it Be = SUNFLOWER

[runnersdialzero]

All it comes down to is this IMO: The Beatles were the better band. In the sense of 4 guys rocking and writing Rock n' Roll tunes. No question about it. .... on the other hand... the Avante Garde belongs not to the White Album but to Smiley Smile onwards....

Who cares about "ROCK N ROOOLLLL"? I care about music, I care about songs. I know you weren't implying it, but the popular notion that Brian, Dennis, Mike, Bruce, Al and Carl were all talentless hacks who needed session players for their albums is blown to God damn pieces once one listens to Live In London. They could very much "rawk", too, while we're at it and if it really matters to anyone. Totally competent band who played just as well as the Beatles, at the very least.

[runnersdialzero]

Up until the recent controversial Smile Sessions release (around November this year, fyi), the Beatles ruled - totally turned on head with said November release,  Wilson is the baby in the manger

This oversimplifies or outright ignores too many things to an astonishing extent. Don't agree at all.

[Smilin Ed H]

CSNY?  Once reasonable voices in search of some decent songs. Saw Crosby and Nash the other week.  People who harp on about Brian and Mike's poor voices ought to listen to those two...