BWPS - The Final Verdict

[The Shift]

Does anybody else agree with Mike Love's sentiments in "Catch a Wave" in that if Brian really wanted to get Smile out he should have taken the original session recordings and reworked them with Mike, Al and Bruce and put it out under the Beach Boys name? You know, finished what he started in '66? I wonder if this could have been the moment that could have reunited the 'Boys again.  Instead it seemed to drive the wedge between Mike and Brian further in.

Whether it's right or wrong, I'd buy it!

Anyone here wouldn't?

[Mike's Beard]

Glad you agree. Now I feel a git for disagreeing with your post on the other thread so strongly!!

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I agree with the sentiment that we had it ruined for us by hearing the original stuff.

[The Heartical Don]

Yup. I wish I'd been 13 when BWPS came out.

[Cam Mott]

Meh.

I am happy for Brian and those involved and the fans who enjoy it but I haven't listened to it again since the day I bought it.

[The Heartical Don]

Meh.

I am happy for Brian and those involved and the fans who enjoy it but I haven't listened to it again since the day I bought it.

Hi Cam, since I always read your posts with interest: can you give a few hints about your 'meh' factor? What is it that gives you reserves about BWPS?

[hypehat]

Does anybody else agree with Mike Love's sentiments in "Catch a Wave" in that if Brian really wanted to get Smile out he should have taken the original session recordings and reworked them with Mike, Al and Bruce and put it out under the Beach Boys name? You know, finished what he started in '66? I wonder if this could have been the moment that could have reunited the 'Boys again.  Instead it seemed to drive the wedge between Mike and Brian further in.

No offense, but that would be terrible.... there would be cheesy, artificial synths all over it, Brian's voice is changed beyond repair, no Dennis or Carl, the backing vocals would be completely different and inferior to the Beach Boys blend, and they would write new sections that we know us fans wouldn't like as they weren't 'vintage' Wilson ideas.....

Oh, wait.....

[Jonathan Blum]

It's still gorgeous.  There are various bits of the original I like better, but it works as a whole in a way the original beautiful fragments never did.

And I think it's really sad that some fans love so intensely, so fixedly, that they can't actually appreciate something lovely because it's not quite right...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[the captain]

To be honest, I just can't imagine Brian ever ... remembering how he wanted Smile to be.

That's the whole problem anyway: there's nothing to remember (or at least no one thing to remember). I'm convinced that if he had known what he wanted to do, he would have done it back then. He didn't. All that "oh, we needed one more year" or "Mike hated it" or "it was too advanced" stuff is after-the-fact excuses, in my book. (Well, Mike DID hate it, but he had been singing his ass off up to the point it was dropped, so I'm sure he could have continued doing so.) This is also why BWPS couldn't ever be "the original" no matter how hard Brian tried to remember, or how in tact his memory was, or who helped. There wasn't a master plan. The reason BWPS is Smile is that it's the only Smile ever completed by its creator. (Or at least mostly by him ... or at least partly by him.)

[The Heartical Don]

To be honest, I just can't imagine Brian ever ... remembering how he wanted Smile to be.

That's the whole problem anyway: there's nothing to remember (or at least no one thing to remember). I'm convinced that if he had known what he wanted to do, he would have done it back then. He didn't. All that "oh, we needed one more year" or "Mike hated it" or "it was too advanced" stuff is after-the-fact excuses, in my book. (Well, Mike DID hate it, but he had been singing his ass off up to the point it was dropped, so I'm sure he could have continued doing so.) This is also why BWPS couldn't ever be "the original" no matter how hard Brian tried to remember, or how in tact his memory was, or who helped. There wasn't a master plan. The reason BWPS is Smile is that it's the only Smile ever completed by its creator. (Or at least mostly by him ... or at least partly by him.)

Very good call. Way back then, Brian was obviously very indecisive; the opposite of how he was during the making of Pet Sounds, I think. He may have had some rough sketch, perhaps only the track list he jotted down. But given his endless experimentation and changing things around, one day this, the other that, it's very unlikely that there was 'something that only needed finishing' at all. I found the famous Japanese bleg (1989) which I never bought or listened to, very revelatory. Still do. I read in Goldmine that it was definitive, with 12 minutes of GV and 8 of H&V. I went hunting for it, and after not having found it, put it in the player. I was not so much disappointed as bemused. I heard idea after idea, none of them completed. The long 'versions' really went nowhere. Which confirms your statements.

So: I am happy that I stayed a moral man and did not buy, nor listen. Peace of mind, bro'...

[The infamous Baldwin Organ]

Does anybody else agree with Mike Love's sentiments in "Catch a Wave" in that if Brian really wanted to get Smile out he should have taken the original session recordings and reworked them with Mike, Al and Bruce and put it out under the Beach Boys name? You know, finished what he started in '66? I wonder if this could have been the moment that could have reunited the 'Boys again.  Instead it seemed to drive the wedge between Mike and Brian further in.

No offense, but that would be terrible.... there would be cheesy, artificial synths all over it, Brian's voice is changed beyond repair, no Dennis or Carl, the backing vocals would be completely different and inferior to the Beach Boys blend, and they would write new sections that we know us fans wouldn't like as they weren't 'vintage' Wilson ideas.....

Oh, wait.....

Regardless of individual opinion on the outcome of that, I think at least the majority would be happy to have them work together at all. Of course, anyone is entitled to feel otherwise.

[Nicko]

That's the whole problem anyway: there's nothing to remember (or at least no one thing to remember). I'm convinced that if he had known what he wanted to do, he would have done it back then. He didn't. All that "oh, we needed one more year" or "Mike hated it" or "it was too advanced" stuff is after-the-fact excuses, in my book. (Well, Mike DID hate it, but he had been singing his ass off up to the point it was dropped, so I'm sure he could have continued doing so.) This is also why BWPS couldn't ever be "the original" no matter how hard Brian tried to remember, or how in tact his memory was, or who helped. There wasn't a master plan. The reason BWPS is Smile is that it's the only Smile ever completed by its creator. (Or at least mostly by him ... or at least partly by him.)

Yeah, you put it well. Brian had said himself many times that he'd experimented too much and so didn't know where it was going by the end. Another reason why I can't imagine him ever coming up with the decision to release it.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I doubt Brian really did want to release it anyway...

I read that he didn't attend the recording sessions for the tracks. Absolutely necessary? No. Odd for somebody who is interested, involved...hell, even curious? Yes.

[The Heartical Don]

I doubt Brian really did want to release it anyway...

I read that he didn't attend the recording sessions for the tracks. Absolutely necessary? No. Odd for somebody who is interested, involved...hell, even curious? Yes.

Hmmm... new to me. Strange.

[Mike's Beard]

I doubt Brian really did want to release it anyway...

I read that he didn't attend the recording sessions for the tracks. Absolutely necessary? No. Odd for somebody who is interested, involved...hell, even curious? Yes.

If that is true it goes a long way to proving what the cynical part of my mind thinks about all this.. That BWPS is really not much more than The Wondermints doing faithfull covers of existing Smile out takes  and then putting Brian upfront to give it authenticity.  And I'd really hate for that to be the case. The thing with digging into the whole Smile myth in conjuncture with Smiley Smile and BWPS is, in a way the more you dig, the more you find out, somehow the less you know.

[The Heartical Don]

I doubt Brian really did want to release it anyway...

I read that he didn't attend the recording sessions for the tracks. Absolutely necessary? No. Odd for somebody who is interested, involved...hell, even curious? Yes.

If that is true it goes a long way to proving what the cynical part of my mind thinks about all this.. That BWPS is really not much more than The Wondermints doing faithfull covers of existing Smile out takes  and then putting Brian upfront to give it authenticity.  And I'd really hate for that to be the case. The thing with digging in to the whole Smile myth in conjuncture with Smiley Smile and BWPS is in a way the more you dig, the more you find out, somehow the less you know.

Lucky me. I was born without a cynical part in my mind. I have a bit of a hole in my brain, in fact. A hole in which beer and wine happily can exist.

[TdHabib]

I doubt Brian really did want to release it anyway...

I read that he didn't attend the recording sessions for the tracks. Absolutely necessary? No. Odd for somebody who is interested, involved...hell, even curious? Yes.

Believe me, he was there. Linnett ever added that he played piano on several of the tracks throughout. And he was interested.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I doubt Brian really did want to release it anyway...

I read that he didn't attend the recording sessions for the tracks. Absolutely necessary? No. Odd for somebody who is interested, involved...hell, even curious? Yes.

Believe me, he was there. Linnett ever added that he played piano on several of the tracks throughout. And he was interested.

In 2004, I read a lot of different interviews on a few different boards. It's been six years now, and I can't reference the specific article/interview, but I thought I read that Darian took the band into the studio, and, without Brian being present, recorded the tracks in about four(?) days. Brian was then brought in to offer his feedback/opinions on what was recorded, and offered a few "that's too loud" and "this voice should sound like this" tweaking kind of comments. If I am wrong, I am prepared to stand corrected. The only reason I brought up the issue was because it was one of the key issues that contributed to my skepticism about Brian's interest and participation.

[the captain]

I have a recording of Liszt's Totentanz that I used to love til I found out that not only was he not the performer, but he wasn't even at the recording session!

[Sheriff John Stone]

I have a recording of Liszt's Totentanz that I used to love til I found out that not only was he not the performer, but he wasn't even at the recording session!

Your musical sophistication continues to amaze me!

[Zack]

I'm happy the record was made for the sake of the masses who don't go to the trouble to obtain boots or expensive box sets to understand what Smile was all about, though I agree it should have been a recording of one of the performances and not Darian, Jeff & Co. Present Smile With Brian Wilson on Reluctant Vocals.

To me, my own 66-67 mix is complete enough, and so much better, that the whole conceit of it being "finished" doesn't wash.  I play my favorite mix or Purple Chick once a week.  Every time I put on BWPS, I ask myself why am I listening to this when I could be listening to that.

[Dr. Tim]

I knew we couldn't go 4 straight pages without the haters weighing in.   Maybe by page Six (!) they'll take over and the Blackboard consensus will be it blows chunks, Brian wasn't there and he didn't even participate, he phoned it in from home.  Cue: people closing their accounts in fury, etc.  330,000 CD buyers can (and must) be wrong.

Reminder: George Martin didn't attend every Beatles session;  Miles Davis would often leave the room while his band rehearsed his new compositions.  Simon and Garfunkel were on separate continents when Tom Wilson got the idea to put a rock band behind their original acoustic "Sounds of Silence."  They first heard it on the radio like everyone else did.

For those who think the live version is the only version worth hearing, of course you have the DVD of it.  Which is impressive, and comparable, being professionally made/sweetened.  Now if we're talking only about the BWPS LP/CD, then OK that doesn't count for this survey, but the option is there.

[lance]

I have a few quibbles with it, but for the most part I think it's absolutely brilliant, one of my all-time favorite albums. I can truly say, that other than a few pieces on Youtube, BWPS was the first time I really heard 'SMiLE.'. And it blew me away. The only albums I had when I heard it were 'Sounds of Summer' and '15 Big Ones/Love You'.

Now, having bought the Good Vibrations box set and having come across numerous bootlegs, I do understand some of the other quibbles....be that as it may, it was still unbelievably exciting and beautiful to me when I heard it and it remains and will remain the closest thing to an authoritatively 'definitive' SMiLE we will ever have. And to be honest, the song order makes sense to me. I do like the idea of swapping the second and third movement. But within those movements themselves, especially Americana and Cycle of Life the music just works regardless of the history...for me, anyway.

No, the feel is not as good as the earlier sessions, especially vocally. Yes, the BB released versions of Our Prayer, Surf's Up and Cabinessense as well as the GV box set stuff are superior. But unfinished. Yes, it would have been different.

But I wholeheartedly unashamedly love it. I don't care about the controversy. And I can still listen to it and the old stuff independently of each other.

[Cam Mott]

Don,

It is a great accomplishment but...I don't know...it just didn't do it for me; I still listen to the original material.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I knew we couldn't go 4 straight pages without the haters weighing in.   Maybe by page Six (!) they'll take over and the Blackboard consensus will be it blows chunks, Brian wasn't there and he didn't even participate, he phoned it in from home.  Cue: people closing their accounts in fury, etc.  330,000 CD buyers can (and must) be wrong.

Reminder: George Martin didn't attend every Beatles session;  Miles Davis would often leave the room while his band rehearsed his new compositions.  Simon and Garfunkel were on separate continents when Tom Wilson got the idea to put a rock band behind their original acoustic "Sounds of Silence."  They first heard it on the radio like everyone else did.

For those who think the live version is the only version worth hearing, of course you have the DVD of it.  Which is impressive, and comparable, being professionally made/sweetened.  Now if we're talking only about the BWPS LP/CD, then OK that doesn't count for this survey, but the option is there.

So if somebody feels that there's a chance Brian's participation was minimal, why does that make them a hater? The topic was about people's personal opinions on 'BWPS'. I didn't know that there was a right or wrong answer.
And I think there's a big difference between George Martin being at every Beatles session, and Brian being at 'BWPS' sessions. I see what you're getting at, and I'm not trying to blow this up into an argument. I guess I just thought that this was about people's opinions on the album, and now we have people trying to tell them that their opinion is wrong.