BWPS - The Final Verdict

[OneEar/OneEye]

I don't see his comment about "Smile seeming smaller" as being about the length of the album though.   I think he was speaking in more of a metaphorical sense.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Remember that Van Dyke was out of the project before Brian started recording 'Fire' and some other mateiral. But he would have heard what went before it. Given all the fragments and sequences he might have heard, its credible that his recollection might have been of a longer album. He was also aware that there was music recorded after he left the process.

Van Dyke wasn't out of the project until early 1967. Fire was recorded in November '66, and it was in December when the infamous 'Mike asked VDP about his lyrics' episode took place.

[Mike's Beard]

Didn't he quit  for a while only to return later?

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Didn't he quit  for a while only to return later?

Both times were in early 1967. If he really did quit 2 times, I think there's some doubt as to whether he actually quit the project twice. Maybe AGD or another of the fellas on here that are more schooled in BB-ology could shed some light on this.

[Bean Bag]

"like a small collection of finely engraved postage stamps, for intimate viewing. "

 

[Mike's Beard]

I greatly admire VDP but man does he talk some gobble-de-gook at times or what?

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I greatly admire VDP but man does he talk some gobble-de-gook at times or what?

He does have a unique way about him. Without it, though, we wouldn't have those lyrical passages like 'Once Upon The Sandwich Islands/The Social Structure Steamed Upon Hawaii'.

[Mike's Beard]

I just got his "Song Cycle" CD on tuesday. Words can't describe it. Gonna be playing that one to death me's think.

P.S.  This may make me sound as stubbon as a mule but now having heard it, I point blank refuse to believe that he played zero part in composing the music to Smile.

[The Heartical Don]

I just got his "Song Cycle" CD on tuesday. Words can't describe it. Gonna be playing that one to death me's think.

P.S.  This may make me sound as stubbon as a mule but now having heard it, I point blank refuse to believe that he played zero part in composing the music to Smile.

Now there's a thought. I must confess, here and now, and for the first time, that I always was of the very same opinion. How and when I do not know. The musical leap from Pet Sounds to Smile is enormous. For these amateur ears, it is pretty inconceivable that Brian changed his compositional talents in such a way. Mind: I do not belittle Brian's capacities one iota here. But since I know Song Cycle for 35 years now, and Pet Sounds/Smile material for 36, I have a more than a hunch indeed that Parks 'helped and supported, mediated, enabled' Brian with the music for Smile also, besides the words.

[armona]

I just got his "Song Cycle" CD on tuesday. Words can't describe it. Gonna be playing that one to death me's think.

P.S.  This may make me sound as stubbon as a mule but now having heard it, I point blank refuse to believe that he played zero part in composing the music to Smile.

Now there's a thought. I must confess, here and now, and for the first time, that I always was of the very same opinion. How and when I do not know. The musical leap from Pet Sounds to Smile is enormous. For these amateur ears, it is pretty inconceivable that Brian changed his compositional talents in such a way. Mind: I do not belittle Brian's capacities one iota here. But since I know Song Cycle for 35 years now, and Pet Sounds/Smile material for 36, I have a more than a hunch indeed that Parks 'helped and supported, mediated, enabled' Brian with the music for Smile also, besides the words.

VanDyke has indicated that although he didn't help Brian with the lyrics to Good Vibrations, that he did suggest using a cello. If true, that would be a good start.

[The Heartical Don]

I just got his "Song Cycle" CD on tuesday. Words can't describe it. Gonna be playing that one to death me's think.

P.S.  This may make me sound as stubbon as a mule but now having heard it, I point blank refuse to believe that he played zero part in composing the music to Smile.

Now there's a thought. I must confess, here and now, and for the first time, that I always was of the very same opinion. How and when I do not know. The musical leap from Pet Sounds to Smile is enormous. For these amateur ears, it is pretty inconceivable that Brian changed his compositional talents in such a way. Mind: I do not belittle Brian's capacities one iota here. But since I know Song Cycle for 35 years now, and Pet Sounds/Smile material for 36, I have a more than a hunch indeed that Parks 'helped and supported, mediated, enabled' Brian with the music for Smile also, besides the words.

VanDyke has indicated that although he didn't help Brian with the lyrics to Good Vibrations, that he did suggest using a cello. If true, that would be a good start.

Good call. Oh how I'd have loved to be a fly on the wall, there and then, when these two gentle giants were playing ping pong with all those grand and tiny ideas for the new album... it's my ultimate musical fantasy, in fact. Van Dyke may have played the odd piano suggestion to Brian, or on any of the other instruments he plays, or hummed various suggestions for a new melody line, a connection between different songs, God knows what.

He should have overseen the sessions for 'Rio Grande'. Yes, he should.

[Bean Bag]

There's no question that Van was a massive, massive influence on the whole vibe, feel, aesthetic of SMiLE.  No question.  From the whole romantic sweep of the project -- to its "intimate viewing" of antique details.  Total Van Dyke.  But of course it was all influencing Brian and I imagine it was there for Brian's ferocious appetite to feed on.  Just like all them mystical books and such.

[Mike's Beard]

I just got his "Song Cycle" CD on tuesday. Words can't describe it. Gonna be playing that one to death me's think.

P.S.  This may make me sound as stubbon as a mule but now having heard it, I point blank refuse to believe that he played zero part in composing the music to Smile.

Now there's a thought. I must confess, here and now, and for the first time, that I always was of the very same opinion. How and when I do not know. The musical leap from Pet Sounds to Smile is enormous. For these amateur ears, it is pretty inconceivable that Brian changed his compositional talents in such a way. Mind: I do not belittle Brian's capacities one iota here. But since I know Song Cycle for 35 years now, and Pet Sounds/Smile material for 36, I have a more than a hunch indeed that Parks 'helped and supported, mediated, enabled' Brian with the music for Smile also, besides the words.

I find the biggest leap is that for all it's lush production and arrangements most of the songs on PS at their heart still carry a "Top 40" ring to them. It's easy to imagine 70% or so of the material making for good singles.  Smile just doesn't have that, it's a very different beast. As VDP clearly doesn't care about material being radio friendly or not I think he played no small part in making Bri think even more "outside the box" than before.

[runnersdialzero]

I greatly admire VDP but man does he talk some gobble-de-gook at times or what?

Mike? Is that you?

VanDyke has indicated that although he didn't help Brian with the lyrics to Good Vibrations, that he did suggest using a cello. If true, that would be a good start.

Wasn't that Carl who suggested the cello?

[armona]

Wasn't that Carl who suggested the cello?

Dunno.

I've read or heard VDP say it directly. Not sure if Carl had also made that claim.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

And remember, Van Dyke played on a few SMiLE sessions. That doesn't necessarily mean that he did anything more than play what Brian told him, but I would think he at least made a few musical suggestions.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Didn't he quit  for a while only to return later?

Both times were in early 1967. If he really did quit 2 times, I think there's some doubt as to whether he actually quit the project twice. Maybe AGD or another of the fellas on here that are more schooled in BB-ology could shed some light on this.

Paging Cam Mott... call for Mr. Mott !!!

[Cam Mott]

I don't really know, it depends how they looked at it.  It seems to me that when VDP talks about it: he quit once or did he finish his job [which isn't really "quit"ting] and quit coming around the work place? Siegel said VDP quit and came back, so I'm not sure what sense he means that in. It seems to me that VDP associates his non-association with the project with the time of the lawsuit but he also says something about distancing himself from the work around the time of Fire or something. Maybe I remember wrong.

[Andrew G. Doe]

This is hauling stuff up from the abyssal depths of my memory, but my recall is that VDP quit for two weeks, then returned, and finally took up the offer of a solo contract from Warner's. I guess the latter looked a better bet than Smile ever coming out. Good call, as it turns out.

[GLarson432]

What I think I remember about VDP's involvement with Good Vibrations is not that he suggested the cello but rather suggested that it be played in 'triplets'.

[armona]

What I think I remember about VDP's involvement with Good Vibrations is not that he suggested the cello but rather suggested that it be played in 'triplets'.

This is a quote from Van Dyke:
"Well, many years ago, I suggested to Brian Wilson that he put a cello on 'Good Vibrations.' He did, and it became a signature sound of that song. I also suggested the triplet fundamentals in the music."

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I don't really know, it depends how they looked at it.  It seems to me that when VDP talks about it: he quit once or did he finish his job [which isn't really "quit"ting] and quit coming around the work place? Siegel said VDP quit and came back, so I'm not sure what sense he means that in. It seems to me that VDP associates his non-association with the project with the time of the lawsuit but he also says something about distancing himself from the work around the time of Fire or something. Maybe I remember wrong.

I think that he didn't quit around fire, but just didn't come down to that session. At least that's what I got out of it.

[Julia]

Can't stand it.

Maybe had I never heard the Beach Boys versions of most of the work I would have a different perspective but to me, it seems like a cover band ruining a song that you really like.

For all the people that dump on how untalented and directionless the Beach Boys are (were) without Brian, I wholeheartedly argue that accusation the other way:  I've have never been impressed with anything Brian has done outside of the Beach Boys.

As an artist, Brian needed the Beach Boys just as much as they needed him.  Brian solo in anyway is hardly impressive.  Never has been, never will be.

Paging Dr. Landy!

Can't stand listening to it. Not in any way revelatory or even well done. I remember feeling nearly crushing disappointment when it came out and I've never learned to like it since. The live shows were way better as an experience, but, for Brian or the BB, re-recording old songs always, ALWAYS sounds way inferior and loses the magic of the original. SMiLE is a haunting, ghostly aural experience, whereas BWPS is a workmanlike sterile blah. It's like a turd falling into my drink. It doesn't even really feel like anyone playing on it cared about anything but playing the same notes we've all come to know and love from '66-'67. No soul. Anyway, you get my drift.

I really admire these bold, no BS answers. Honestly, I think more people feel this way than will admit it, but out of politeness they pretend to follow the crowd. As an aside, looking back at these older threads makes me wish I had been on the board in the late 00s instead of the mid-10s. I feel like a lot of the opinions I got flak for used to be more common and the people saying them 5 years before I did weren't given nearly the same level of pushback. I don't know what the hell happened, but it's like the board and fandom got taken over by hardcore Brian and Mike apologists, neither whom wanted to talk about SMiLE anymore. (The former because it implied BWPS wasn't the definitive final word, the latter because it meant acknowledging a time where Mike was seen as a detriment to the band.) I feel like I joined the community at the worst possible time...

I remember when I was first delving into the Beach Boys hardcore, and hearing about how Pet Sounds was their peak, listening to that and getting blown away. Then I heard they were working on an even more ambitious follow-up that was never finished "but there are two albums borne from it, a stripped down '60s version and 'completed' 2004 version with an older Brian and cover band." So, I thought I might as well opt for the "completed" version right? I wasn't expecting older Brian or these other guys to sound as good as the Beach Boys at their peak...but I heard Prayer and about half of Heroes before saying "y'know what, I'm good" and going for Smiley. And that was such a bizarro WTF experience I thought "maybe SMiLE just wasn't that great after all--there's a reason the Beatles won" until over a year later when I got curious again, found the David Leaf film, then heard some bootlegs on YouTube and become a lifelong devotee. (I did eventually listen to BWPS once or twice the whole way through after that, and that was enough for me. It's been boots and fanmixes from then on, hundreds of spins over the years.)

But yeah, BWPS was an instant "meh" for me, sorry everyone. I sort of treat it with kid gloves to some extent in "official" reviews because I appreciate what it represents, what it did for Brian, its place as the perfect capstone to his legacy ("he conquered his demons and finished his masterpiece" makes for a great byline), plus the efforts of his loyal band. That's great and I don't want to be the jerk dumping on it. I really don't. But if I'm being honest, it really just isn't a pleasant listening experience for all the reasons I've stated ad nauseum. I don't know who it is, but there's just something off about the Wondermints vocal blend, or it sounds like they're trying too hard or something. The guy playing bass doesn't give it enough "oomph" and I've seen him accused of even playing wrong notes. Brian's post Love You voice just grates on me after awhile--all his solo albums with only a few exceptions I find myself getting annoyed listening to him drone on. I think '60s through '72 era Brian could carry an album on his own singing-wise but after that he really needed the BBs just for variety. That's not even getting into my beefs with the sequence and inclusion of awkward disparate 30-second roadbumps like Barnyard as a standalone song.

The one song I'll give them credit for is Fire. That's the one track that's arguably superior to its 60s progenitor. Everything else, while I'm sure was a great show (I do appreciate the live performance DVD) it's just like "why would I listen to this very inferior version when I've got the real thing in 3-dozen different configurations on my shelf?" It doesn't stand up as something anyone would listen to except out of devotion to Brian--if anyone heard BWPS first, would they become obsessed with it like so many did after hearing the bootlegs? I can't answer for anyone else but for me the answer was a solid NO.

I think as time and generations go by, BWPS will become the definitive version of Brian Wilson's greatest work and the 1967 recordings will be more of a curiosity. The 37 years between the two right now seems like a much longer time than it will in a few decades. That and BWPS is too new to feel like it's been around long enough to compete with the fragments.

Had the boxset never come out, you may've been right just for the fact that bootlegs don't get rereleased or upkept by labels and fanmixes aren't official so they'll only get passed around second-hand. But in a post-TSS world this is absolutely nonsense. I never hear of ANYONE breaking out BWPS or listening to it for pleasure while the original records are always used in fanmixes and such. If BWPS were truly definitive it would've superseded the fanmixing community but it didn't. And in a world where the originals have the legitimacy of being officially released, where they pop up on Spotify or Youtube easily, no one's gonna go "ooh, let's hear the version by an old man and cover band!" I don't mean to sound harsh, but c'mon.

[SMiLE]

I know this is going to be controversial but I consider BWPS the closest thing to a completed SMiLE that will ever exist and I always sing the missing Vocal parts from BWPS when listening to the Beach Boys version. To be honest the how to handle/not handle SMiLE has been a major factor in why I have been delaying the writing of my review articles of the Beach Boys catalog. I have completed Surfin Safari through Pet Sounds but have no clue how to approach SMiLE. The finished product will likely be a joint review of both TSS and BWPS with the full context but that will be a very long article. I am considering skipping ahead to Smiley Smile and writing SMiLE at the end before TWGMTR but then there is the question of how much to talk about SMiLE when discussing Smiley Smile.

[rab2591]

I know this is going to be controversial but I consider BWPS the closest thing to a completed SMiLE that will ever exist and I always sing the missing Vocal parts from BWPS when listening to the Beach Boys version. To be honest the how to handle/not handle SMiLE has been a major factor in why I have been delaying the writing of my review articles of the Beach Boys catalog. I have completed Surfin Safari through Pet Sounds but have no clue how to approach SMiLE. The finished product will likely be a joint review of both TSS and BWPS with the full context but that will be a very long article. I am considering skipping ahead to Smiley Smile and writing SMiLE at the end before TWGMTR but then there is the question of how much to talk about SMiLE when discussing Smiley Smile.

I totally agree. I mean this shouldn’t be controversial at all (and, outside of a vocal minority, I really don’t think it is controversial). BWPS is the THIRD highest rated album on Metacritic (and it has been from #1 to #3 ever since it was released). While the streaming numbers on YouTube definitely show the Smile Sessions being more popular, BWPS numbers aren’t too shabby either (and outside of H&V and GV, are rather comparable to TSS). So yes, people DO pick up BWPS over TSS at times (as the streaming numbers show). I don’t see why this has to be an either/or thing for some people - you can enjoy both BWPS and the Smile Sessions - and you can prefer one over the other, hopefully without someone having a panic attack over your opinion.

TBH I totally understand people enjoying TSS over BWPS, and I dig that there are people like me who prefer BWPS as well. We are all different fans who have different perspectives - either way we’re enjoying some amazing music from our favorite composer/producer.

Here is my take on BWPS: Upon doing the concerts/recording the album Brian said that he finally “completed” Smile. I will take the artist’s word, and not my own. Aside from that, here is why I enjoy BWPS more:

1. So many parts of the vintage Smile Sessions sound so tinny, like they were recorded via a tin can. Holidays is probably the most egregious example of this, as it sounds like the microphone was placed in another room. I mean, I do not see how the guy who recorded the sparkly/beautiful/clear instrumental to ‘All Summer Long’ was the same guy who recorded ‘Holidays’. Hence, ‘On A Holiday’ sounds so beautifully full of color and clarity. The original sounds like a demo to me, the BWPS version sounds complete. And that’s how I feel about Worms/PlymouthRock, Wonderful, Look, CIFOTM.. BWPS just sounds professional to me.

Where I differ with that, is TSS Vega-Tables being one of the coolest and most 3 dimensional recordings I’ve ever heard…and you cannot beat that 2nd “brush em like crazy” section. This goes for CabinEssence, as well - to me, hands-down light years better than BWPS. There are other songs I feel this way about, but as a whole, BWPS sounds completely cohesive to me, where TSS have those moments of clarity, but they are mostly interspersed with these tinny recordings that really take me out of the moment.

2. The Spiritual Suite is just incredible - whilst the harpsichord is MIDI (which I actually prefer in this case, but yes I would’ve loved to have heard a version with a real harpsichord), I do love the clarity/cohesive nature of all of these songs together on BWPS. While I do prefer vintage Surf’s Up versions, I think as a whole, the Life Suite just feels complete to me.

3. Brian put this together with some amazingly supportive people - why does this have any bearing on my enjoyment of the album? I guess because it shows that, aside from Brian’s personal paranoia about the project, there wasn’t this external negativity that was weighing down the project; there was probably a lot of joy for Brian to work with an incredibly talented/supportive band that worked their magic on that album. Whereas the original is just fraught with drama.

All of that being said, I can totally see why people prefer the original vintage recordings - I mean, Our Prayer with the Beach Boys is one of the most beautiful recordings ever, and to hear people “cover” that on BWPS is definitely strange. And just for the historical aspect, I can see why BWPS is a turnoff to some. But, on the flip side of that, I also don’t think people need to feel ashamed for enjoying BWPS, or think of it as being controversial.

Brian is the guy with the final word, as he’s the artist in control of his own music - agreeing with Brian about his own music shouldn’t be controversial