Al Jardine says there's a BAD conflict w/Mike. Aka: The welcome back AGD thread

[drbeachboy]

Brian looked miserable during the first C50 shows but no one could have predicted how well he improved half way through the tour and then in London....

At the Camden, NJ show last year, he looked stoned faced through the first few songs, but came to life as soon as he started singing his leads. He's just not a smiley, emotional type guy. I think this year having Al and Dave there to help MC takes a lot of pressure off Brian, so he can just perform and leave most of the talking to the other guys.

[Sheriff John Stone]

How did Mike ever attain such a ridiculous arrangement?

He "attained" it through a vote by people who were more interested in money than legacy. In my opinion, I don't think anything has changed, other than Al's venting in public, which I think is as much a personal vendetta against Mike Love than anything else.

[Robbie Mac]

Will the fact that you now have an actual Beach Boys tour and album on the record with all surviving members on board rather than factions (which could set a new precedent for what constitutes using the name Beach Boys on a project) affect in any way how that name is used in the future? I'm talking strictly in terms of what was previously agreed to and what the context was at that time versus what they were revised to include when they all got together as The Beach Boys.

This is one of the big reasons that Mike pulled the plug on the C50 when he did, IMO. A semi-permanent reunion of the five principals would have diluted the value of his license, and possibly ultimately made it harder for him to defend it in a legal context. And if he got wind of any efforts to change the BRI status quo, I'm sure he sprang into action. Also, note the words he's using in interviews now -- things like betrayal and untrustworthy. You don't say stuff like that about writing credits. You do about you livelihood as a bandleader.

I always felt Mike had the most to lose from agreeing to reunite. The ability to sell his BB show depends on the casual fan thinking of the BB as a faceless entity. But in 2012, the BB were everywhere: Walmart, network TV shows that didn't involve Uncle Jesse, Jazzfest, Bonnaroo, magazine news stands.  Did Mike really think after the amount of publicity the reunion generated that he could comfortably slip back into the status quo without at least being questioned?

[Sheriff John Stone]

But, as soon as Landy leaves, Melinda enters the picture, and she is determined to facilitate a solo career - one that is now 25 years old - for Brian. So, Mike has to wait that out.

This is untrue. The first thing that happened when Brian married Melinda was that he worked with the Beach Boys again, and wrote with Mike again. At the time, she was very encouraging of his work with the group, and believed that he was a Beach Boy at heart. You can blame Don Was and Van Dyke Parks for Brian releasing solo records in '95.

Melinda (and Brian) changed their tune after Carl scuttled the 95 sessions, after Carl insulted Brian by saying he wasn't capable of touring Pet Sounds live with the group in 96, and after the relative commercial failure of Mike's Stars and Stripes project. Carl's death then helped seal the deal.

My statement is true. Melinda is on record as saying that she would facilitate Brian's solo career. She said (and I paraphrase only slightly), "You're (Brian) not going to have a solo career where you simply throw an album out every couple of years..." And she kept that promise - unfortunately. And I say unfortunately because of the "product" that was thrown out there. To deny that Melinda was NOT instrumental in facilitating Brian's solo career would be wrong. Yeah, you can credit Was and Parks with the 1995 releases, but you seem to be ignoring the following 18 years.

[Cam Mott]

The last information I'm aware of is the license and terms originally put together by all of the BRI for Mike to use an exclusive license were still the terms for the non-exclusive licenses for Mike, Al, and Brian and is in force still for Mike. Don't take that to the bank and I don't know anything beyond what was published by the Court of Appeals.

[Cam Mott]

I don't know about mental illness but imo Brian has never been anybody's puppet. He is in control of everything he wants to be in control of and anybody else is only in control of whatever he doesn't care to control. Murry didn't control him, none of the BBs controlled him, Capitol didn't, Landy maybe but I doubt it, nor Melinda. Jmo.

[drbeachboy]

How did Mike ever attain such a ridiculous arrangement?

He "attained" it through a vote by people who were more interested in money than legacy. In my opinion, I don't think anything has changed, other than Al's venting in public, which I think is as much a personal vendetta against Mike Love than anything else.

That's the thing, because as much as they snipe at each other, nobody is pissed enough to call Mike out to stop. Too much money to lose for all involved. For Brian and Al it's a double pay day.

[drbeachboy]

I don't know about mental illness but imo Brian has never been anybody's puppet. He is in control of everything he wants to be in control of and anybody else is only in control of whatever he doesn't care to control. Murry didn't control him, none of the BBs controlled him, Capitol didn't, Landy maybe but I doubt it, nor Melinda. Jmo.

With Melinda, I'd say she exerts her influence. What wife doesn't.

[Cam Mott]

My wife doesn......what's that dear?...gotta go.

[drbeachboy]

My wife doesn......what's that dear?...gotta go.

Ain't that the truth.

[Wirestone]

But, as soon as Landy leaves, Melinda enters the picture, and she is determined to facilitate a solo career - one that is now 25 years old - for Brian. So, Mike has to wait that out.

This is untrue. The first thing that happened when Brian married Melinda was that he worked with the Beach Boys again, and wrote with Mike again. At the time, she was very encouraging of his work with the group, and believed that he was a Beach Boy at heart. You can blame Don Was and Van Dyke Parks for Brian releasing solo records in '95.

Melinda (and Brian) changed their tune after Carl scuttled the 95 sessions, after Carl insulted Brian by saying he wasn't capable of touring Pet Sounds live with the group in 96, and after the relative commercial failure of Mike's Stars and Stripes project. Carl's death then helped seal the deal.

My statement is true. Melinda is on record as saying that she would facilitate Brian's solo career. She said (and I paraphrase only slightly), "You're (Brian) not going to have a solo career where you simply throw an album out every couple of years..." And she kept that promise - unfortunately. And I say unfortunately because of the "product" that was thrown out there. To deny that Melinda was NOT instrumental in facilitating Brian's solo career would be wrong. Yeah, you can credit Was and Parks with the 1995 releases, but you seem to be ignoring the following 18 years.

Melinda said that around Imagination's release in 1998. Not "as soon as" Landy left the picture, which was six years prior.

My point was simply that Melinda, who had been married to Brian for three years at that point, and dating him since the late 80s, did not somehow force him into a solo career. It was merely another step in a long progression. When they married (and for that matter, when they were dating), she tried to facilitate a Beach Boys reunion. The other members of the group balked. When a solo opportunity came up, she then pressed Brian to pursue it (although even then, Carl planned to sing on Imagination, and Bruce appeared at the promo concert).

I mean, if you're a devoted spouse, at a certain point you have to press your other half to do what you think is best for them and their mental health. The Beach Boys of the mid- to late 90s didn't trust Brian as a producer or performer and didn't like his songs. So why work with them?

[Wirestone]

I don't know about mental illness but imo Brian has never been anybody's puppet. He is in control of everything he wants to be in control of and anybody else is only in control of whatever he doesn't care to control. Murry didn't control him, none of the BBs controlled him, Capitol didn't, Landy maybe but I doubt it, nor Melinda. Jmo.

I'll take the chance to say it now, Cam, that at least on this point, I agree with you 100 percent.

[Sheriff John Stone]

But, as soon as Landy leaves, Melinda enters the picture, and she is determined to facilitate a solo career - one that is now 25 years old - for Brian. So, Mike has to wait that out.

This is untrue. The first thing that happened when Brian married Melinda was that he worked with the Beach Boys again, and wrote with Mike again. At the time, she was very encouraging of his work with the group, and believed that he was a Beach Boy at heart. You can blame Don Was and Van Dyke Parks for Brian releasing solo records in '95.

Melinda (and Brian) changed their tune after Carl scuttled the 95 sessions, after Carl insulted Brian by saying he wasn't capable of touring Pet Sounds live with the group in 96, and after the relative commercial failure of Mike's Stars and Stripes project. Carl's death then helped seal the deal.

My statement is true. Melinda is on record as saying that she would facilitate Brian's solo career. She said (and I paraphrase only slightly), "You're (Brian) not going to have a solo career where you simply throw an album out every couple of years..." And she kept that promise - unfortunately. And I say unfortunately because of the "product" that was thrown out there. To deny that Melinda was NOT instrumental in facilitating Brian's solo career would be wrong. Yeah, you can credit Was and Parks with the 1995 releases, but you seem to be ignoring the following 18 years.

Melinda said that around Imagination's release in 1998. Not "as soon as" Landy left the picture, which was six years prior.

My point was simply that Melinda, who had been married to Brian for three years at that point, and dating him since the late 80s, did not somehow force him into a solo career. It was merely another step in a long progression. When they married (and for that matter, when they were dating), she tried to facilitate a Beach Boys reunion. The other members of the group balked. When a solo opportunity came up, she then pressed Brian to pursue it (although even then, Carl planned to sing on Imagination, and Bruce appeared at the promo concert).

I mean, if you're a devoted spouse, at a certain point you have to press your other half to do what you think is best for them and their mental health. The Beach Boys of the mid- to late 90s didn't trust Brian as a producer or performer and didn't like his songs. So why work with them?

OK, Wirestone. Dr. Landy was officially disbarred from treating Brian Wilson in 1992, and Brian began seriously dating Melinda in 1994, maybe 1993. So, if you want to take exception with my phrase, "as soon as Landy leaves, Melinda enters the picture", knock yourself out.   

I never said that the quote I used about Melinda's "facilitating" was made at the beginning of their relationship; it doesn't matter when she SAID it. I used the quote/paraphrase to illustrate that Melinda was actively facilitating Brian's solo career, which she was. She said it.

I also didn't say anything that implied Melinda "forced" Brian into situations, so I don't know why you are bringing that up. You seem to be defensive about that issue.

In your above post, you stated that "The Beach Boys of mid-to-late 90s didn't trust Brian as a producer or performer and didn't like his songs" Correct me if I'm wrong - and I mean that seriously - but wasn't Carl Wilson the only Beach Boy who walked out of the sessions? As far as trusting Brian as a producer, do you really think there is anybody in the music industry that DOES trust Brian Wilson to produce an album, without assistance?

But, my question to you, Wirestone, is why are you taking exception with my opinion/statement/post that Melinda "facilitated" Brian's solo career. Actually, I thought it was a well-known, established fact.

[oldsurferdude]

DrBeachBoy --

To clarify what I do. I write a syndicated feed that goes out to thousands of stations across North America. It is written primarily for DJ's to read on the air -- much like an interactive AP wire.
Some affiliates enjoy the "Side Notes," "Fast Facts" and "Ask Your Listeners" pieces written specifically for the jocks that they include them -- and audio -- for their web content, too.

Classic Rock radio news talks about TONS of bands you never hear played -- the Beach Boys being one of many.
FYI: Philly is one of a half-dozen East Coast Beach Boy strongholds in the country. Tremendous fan-base.
Classic Rock radio SOLD both the BWPS LP and its tour dates.
Never heard a single track from the album on the air.

Rock radio has many functions. Spinning Doobie Brothers hits is but one of them.

I write about Deep Purple, too. And when I do I write as though I'm talking to THEIR fan-base as well.

Don't worry too much about the doctor. He likes to prescribe chill pills to everyone here but refuses to take any himself-as you can see by his posts. he's severely sensitive(for a message board, that is) and it appears that he may be on the verge of a slow, shattering breakdown as mYke luHv's picnic band moves toward disintegration.

[Wirestone]

You're misunderstanding my points, and I seem to be misunderstanding yours. If your sole point was the Melinda helped Brian with his solo career, then sure, that's public knowledge.

Your posts, however, suggested to me that you believe that Melinda's aim, as soon as she married Brian, was to establish him as a solo artist and separate him from the group. You were talking about it in relation to Mike writing with Brian, IIRC. And yet, Melinda did facilitate Brian working with the group, and writing with Mike (which he did actively in 1995). He appeared on Baywatch with them, for Pete's sake. So I don't think it's fair to paint Melinda as some sort of barrier. The other guys did that.

You also conflate two separate points when you write:

In your above post, you stated that "The Beach Boys of mid-to-late 90s didn't trust Brian as a producer or performer and didn't like his songs" Correct me if I'm wrong - and I mean that seriously - but wasn't Carl Wilson the only Beach Boy who walked out of the sessions? As far as trusting Brian as a producer, do you really think there is anybody in the music industry that DOES trust Brian Wilson to produce an album, without assistance?

There's a difference between not trusting and walking out. Carl was the only one to ditch the sessions, to my knowledge. But Mike, by his own account, wasn't an enthusiastic participant in recording Wilson-Paley material. And the group in general wanted Brian working with a younger, hip producer. According to Melinda, in the Carlin book, this really irritated Brian.

I don't think the producer trust business has to do with believing Brian can do it on his own, 100 percent. Few folks from that era can (even Dylan, who self-produces these days, essentially has his engineers co-produce). It has to do with trusting the people he collaborates with and wants to make records with. The group had problems with that then, and from the sound of it, Mike has problems with that now.

[Sheriff John Stone]

You're misunderstanding my points, and I seem to be misunderstanding yours. If your sole point was the Melinda helped Brian with his solo career, then sure, that's public knowledge.

Your posts, however, suggested to me that you believe that Melinda's aim, as soon as she married Brian, was to establish him as a solo artist and separate him from the group. You were talking about it in relation to Mike writing with Brian, IIRC. And yet, Melinda did facilitate Brian working with the group, and writing with Mike (which he did actively in 1995). He appeared on Baywatch with them, for Pete's sake. So I don't think it's fair to paint Melinda as some sort of barrier. The other guys did that.

What I believe is somewhere in between, quite frankly. But that's not important.

The main point that I was trying to convey was what Mike Love must've felt along the way in being thwarted from writing with Brian. And, I was trying to stay on topic and address what Mike Love is feeling - in the fall of 2013 - and why he is saying the things he is saying. Yes - or no - depending on your point of view, Melinda was not opposed to a reunion 100% of the time, and she was not pro-solo career 100% of the time for the entire 20 year relationship she and Brian shared. But, the bottom line is, since they began a serious relationship, Brian Wilson was overwhelmingly a solo artist and rarely a Beach Boy. And, Wirestone, you're a knowledgeable BW solo fan, wasn't Melinda an INFLUENCE, A FACILITATOR - as a spouse, as an unofficial manager, as an unofficial conservator, as someone who didn't like Mike Love - on/for every solo project that Brian Wilson did during that time frame? That's all I'm saying, and that's what I believe Mike Love was thinking for the last 20 years. I know you take exception to that, like somebody is attacking Melinda or belittling Brian. But, really, don't you believe that Mike Love believes that SOMEBODY was influencing Brian's career choices over the last 20 years, and influencing Brian to NOT go back to The Beach Boys, and that person was Melinda? And, then, after 20 years, Mike finally gets past that obstacle, and he meets another one in Joe Thomas. Mike has had it! I think my theory makes perfect sense!  

Edit: Oh, I forgot something... Wasn't Melinda's "openness" to Brian being a Beach Boy very early in their (Melinda and Brian's) relationship. The things you mentioned - the Was sessions, Orange Crate Art sessions, and Baywatch - weren't they in 1994-95? After that spurt, 1995 onward, it was pretty much focusing on Brian's solo touring and recording wasn't it?

[Wirestone]

The two started dating in the mid- to late-80s, I believe (I want to say '86 -- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/3554479/Brian-Wilson-a-Beach-Boys-own-story.html). I think Melinda knew all of the family business quite early, and IIRC worked alongside Carl and the band to get Landy out of the picture (she's an anonymous interview in one of the notorious TV news reports that exposed the Landy relationship for what it was).

As for the timeline, Brian worked with the Boys in 1995 and 1996 (S&S came out that year). He then spent time working on Carnie and Wendy's record in 1997, and was mulling kind of a family group arrangement with them. Then Imagination started up, but the plan was still tentatively to do a Beach Boys record afterward (Brian did the same thing in 1988 and 1989, after all -- releasing BW88 and then appearing on several tracks on Still Crusin'.)  The fact that a chunk of TWGMTR material dates from 98-99 backs that theory up.

Carl's death changed everything -- not just for Brian, but for Al and Mike and Bruce, too. (The other thing, IMO, is that JT assembled a touring band. And Brian began looking to those folks for musical and life support. It really changed his outlook, I think.)

EDIT: And for the record, I'm sure Mike did blame Melinda during the 2000s for the lack of any new BW/ML collaborations. It's only sensible, from his perspective. That being said, the fact that she did encourage them to write together in the mid-90s surely counts for something, as did the fact that Brian asked Mike to write some lyrics for a tune after the Capitol rooftop meeting (Mike refused). And Mike suing Brian over BWPS couldn't have helped matters, either ...

[Jim V.]

The two started dating in the mid- to late-80s, I believe (I want to say '86 -- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/3554479/Brian-Wilson-a-Beach-Boys-own-story.html). I think Melinda knew all of the family business quite early, and IIRC worked alongside Carl and the band to get Landy out of the picture (she's an anonymous interview in one of the notorious TV news reports that exposed the Landy relationship for what it was).

As for the timeline, Brian worked with the Boys in 1995 and 1996 (S&S came out that year). He then spent time working on Carnie and Wendy's record in 1997, and was mulling kind of a family group arrangement with them. Then Imagination started up, but the plan was still tentatively to do a Beach Boys record afterward (Brian did the same thing in 1988 and 1989, after all -- releasing BW88 and then appearing on several tracks on Still Crusin'.)  The fact that a chunk of TWGMTR material dates from 98-99 backs that theory up.

Carl's death changed everything -- not just for Brian, but for Al and Mike and Bruce, too. (The other thing, IMO, is that JT assembled a touring band. And Brian began looking to those folks for musical and life support. It really changed his outlook, I think.)

EDIT: And for the record, I'm sure Mike did blame Melinda during the 2000s for the lack of any new BW/ML collaborations. It's only sensible, from his perspective. That being said, the fact that she did encourage them to write together in the mid-90s surely counts for something, as did the fact that Brian asked Mike to write some lyrics for a tune after the Capitol rooftop meeting (Mike refused). And Mike suing Brian over BWPS couldn't have helped matters, either ...

Mike refused because he wanted to write IN A ROOM TOGETHER. Nothing else counts.

[Wirestone]

All this talk about Mike wanting to be alone with Brian ... alone ... together ... in a room?

Does it strike anyone else as a little bit creepy? Just asking ...

[SMiLE Brian]

Yeah, Mike's demands seem kinda strange. Its a total control situation or nothing for Mike to work with Brian.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

All this talk about Mike wanting to be alone with Brian ... alone ... together ... in a room?

Does it strike anyone else as a little bit creepy? Just asking ...

Only if Mike requests smooth jazz playing in the room and a certain type of body lotion and Brian atop the piano in only speedos like...... Oh, nevermind. The "together in a room" thing is highly metaphorical!

Isn't the idea of Brian, Mike, AND Joe Thomas alone in a room even more creepy???

[bringahorseinhere?]

i think Mike is meaning that he just wants be work with Brian like how they started out in the early days, and without other parties chipping
in and other forces intruding...

RickB

[Nicko1234]

I always felt Mike had the most to lose from agreeing to reunite. The ability to sell his BB show depends on the casual fan thinking of the BB as a faceless entity. But in 2012, the BB were everywhere: Walmart, network TV shows that didn't involve Uncle Jesse, Jazzfest, Bonnaroo, magazine news stands.  Did Mike really think after the amount of publicity the reunion generated that he could comfortably slip back into the status quo without at least being questioned?

The astonishing thing is Mike has been able to slip back into the status quo very easily. The general public don't seem to be too bothered about all of this stuff if the attendances are anything to go by.

I think we maybe making something out of nothing in this thread anyway. Al doesn't give any indication in that interview that he is going to try and take Mike's right to tour as The Beach Boys away. No more than before anyway as Al had always voted against Mike. Nothing has changed there.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

All this talk about Mike wanting to be alone with Brian ... alone ... together ... in a room?

Does it strike anyone else as a little bit creepy? Just asking ...

Only if Mike requests smooth jazz playing in the room and a certain type of body lotion and Brian atop the piano in only speedos like...... Oh, nevermind. The "together in a room" thing is highly metaphorical!

Isn't the idea of Brian, Mike, AND Joe Thomas alone in a room even more creepy???

Fear the mullet

[bringahorseinhere?]

if Al didn't have so much pride...... the only other thing that would make sense..... is if Al and Dave went with Mike and Bruce, and continued as
The Beach Boys, and let Brian do his thing.....
It doesn't seem Dave would be too fussed either way, he seems a pretty cool cucumber.....

That would seem feasible to me...

RickB