Al Jardine says there's a BAD conflict w/Mike. Aka: The welcome back AGD thread

[Cam Mott]

I think we maybe making something out of nothing in this thread anyway. Al doesn't give any indication in that interview that he is going to try and take Mike's right to tour as The Beach Boys away. No more than before anyway as Al had always voted against Mike. Nothing has changed there.

I agree. I find it hard to understand Al sometimes but the way it is being taken on the board would mean they are vexed by themselves, they set the terms they are expected to abide by.

I guess it is on too riffing on making too much [imo] of "in a room". Fun, fun, fun.

[Rocker]

I thought I'd throw this in. The Bolts posted this on their facebook site:

[SurfRiderHawaii]

I think we maybe making something out of nothing in this thread anyway. Al doesn't give any indication in that interview that he is going to try and take Mike's right to tour as The Beach Boys away. No more than before anyway as Al had always voted against Mike. Nothing has changed there.

I agree. I find it hard to understand Al sometimes but the way it is being taken on the board would mean they are vexed by themselves, they set the terms they are expected to abide by.

I guess it is on too riffing on making too much [imo] of "in a room". Fun, fun, fun.

Well, a little birdie told me there is something afoot,  without giving specifics.

[KittyKat]

The strange irony is that Brian's band as it is now is more and more like Mike's traveling oldies show.  It features  mediocre talents such as Jeff Foskett on lead vocals. It has Dave Marks on lead vocals, who is an okay/adequate guitarist (JF is better, IMO), but not much of a singer. Darian is okay, but nothing special. They're altogether not much better as lead singers than Totten, Cowsill, and Christian Love. Brian sings less and less. When Brian does sing, he doesn't always sound very good at all. Mike Love is sounding somewhat better than Brian these days, but he has bad days, too. Al sings pretty well, but he gets only three or so songs. Then add in the fact that there are an awful lot of additional lead singers for a show that supposedly is a Brian Wilson solo show (doesn't that imply he should be singing nearly all of it, as he did when he first toured, but no longer does?).

Brian's band is better musically due to having more pieces and having some great musicians, but in terms of a show, it's getting closer to a Beach Boys revue/tribute band than a true Brian Wilson tour.  I'd say Mike's band is more of a Beach Boys revue/tribute band than a real Beach Boys, as well.

[ontor pertawst]

Eh. Let me know when Mike opens a set with Our Prayer, or can manage to pull off Heroes and Villains.

Or can do Marcella justice.

Or performs Pet Sounds numbers with the right instrumentation.

Or continues writing and performing new music. I guess we got the Cool Head, Warm Heart thing. Did he ever perform Santa's Going to Kokomo live?

[Nicko1234]

Eh. Let me know when Mike opens a set with Our Prayer, or can manage to pull off Heroes and Villains.

Or can do Marcella justice.

Or performs Pet Sounds numbers with the right instrumentation.

Or continues writing and performing new music. I guess we got the Cool Head, Warm Heart thing. Did he ever perform Santa's Going to Kokomo live?

Yes, he did. So that shows you! 

To be fair, the earlier poster is right in that there isn't too much difference in the shows that the two factions put on.

[mikeddonn]

The set lists are very similar nowadays. Mike's band also did a lovely acapella There Hearts Were Full of Spring a few years ago when I saw them.  I wish Brian's tour was more like the early tours.  I remember most people sitting open mouthed when they heard Prayer and Cabinessence et al back in 2002.  Or even I'd Love Just Once to See You and The Night Was So Young.  It was a very different experience than going to see Mike and Bruce.  However, I think Darian is more than ok.  He and the rest of Brian's band offer more vocally and instrumentally than Mike's.  Christian, for example, sounds ok but bored, as if he'd rather be someplace else.  Just my opinion of course.  I would prefer to see BAD, however I think they need to get back to making it 'magical' if that makes any sense?  Maybe it's just because Brian tours more these days.  I remember seeing Brian the first time and telling my ex-girlfriend it would be a once in a lifetime experience ( and missing a big concert she was doing on the same night).  The following week I flew to Dublin to see him!  For the last 11 years I have been going to his shows and each time there is something less to see or get excited about, apart from the fact it's Brian and the music is great.  Last year though at Wembley he was up for it!

[ontor pertawst]

Yes, he did. So that shows you!  

To be fair, the earlier poster is right in that there isn't too much difference in the shows that the two factions put on.

It shows me that you can answer a question I asked, it wasn't some rhetorical point!

There's some overlap in the setlists what with all of the monster hits in the back catalog, but I'm not seeing them as equivalent shows without much difference. M&B's band is much thinner sounding on Pet Sounds numbers and don't do them justice. They don't even try the harder stuff, much less perform them accurately. If you want to claim there isn't too much difference between a band that can pull off Our Prayer/Heroes and Villains and make it seem easy and one that can't, enjoy! Obviously all those additional people Mike complains about must have SOME effect on the sound. Saying it's too expensive to tour county fairs and Biloxi casinos with Brian's band is one thing, trying to claim there's little difference between what they can do in their shows and the M&B experience is another! Or are you going to try to pull that "a synthesizer is just as good as a real French Horn" thing that seems popular these days?

 Ya get what you pay for. In this case... richer, lusher live versions of Brian's arrangements. I know those aren't as important as those timeless Mike Love lyrics, but I appreciate the extra effort BW's band goes through to make this material come alive. They ain't the Wrecking Crew, but man they are good!

That said, somebody clone Cowsill. There should be two of him.

[Nicko1234]

It shows me that you can answer a question I asked, it wasn't some rhetorical point!

There's some overlap in the setlists what with all of the monster hits in the back catalog, but I'm not seeing them as equivalent shows without much difference. M&B's band is much thinner sounding on Pet Sounds numbers and don't do them justice. They don't even try the harder stuff, much less perform them accurately. If you want to claim there isn't too much difference between a band that can pull off Our Prayer/Heroes and Villains and make it seem easy and one that can't, enjoy! Obviously all those additional people Mike complains about must have SOME effect on the sound. Saying it's too expensive to tour county fairs and Biloxi casinos with Brian's band is one thing, trying to claim there's no difference between what they can do and the M&B experience is another! Or are you going to try to pull that "a synthesizer is just as good as a real French Horn" thing that seems popular these days?

You've got me mixed up with someone else. I've certainly never commented about the goodness of synthesizers.

Sorry but your comments are factually inaccurate. Mike's band have played Heroes and Villains on numerous occasions. The reason they don't play it more often is presumably due to the fact that Mike doesn't really like it.

They've shown they can sing a capella on Their Hearts were Full of Spring but Mike's group are unlikely to play deeper Smile material so why would they attempt Our Prayer?

When M&B's group have played deeper cuts (including stuff from Pet Sounds like You Still Believe in Me and Here Today) they have received universal praise haven't they?

I didn't say that the sound of the groups was identical. But there ain't that much difference in what people are seeing. Brian's band were playing 20-25 hits on the recent tour after all...

[Robbie Mac]

The strange irony is that Brian's band as it is now is more and more like Mike's traveling oldies show.  It features  mediocre talents such as Jeff Foskett on lead vocals. It has Dave Marks on lead vocals, who is an okay/adequate guitarist (JF is better, IMO), but not much of a singer. Darian is okay, but nothing special. They're altogether not much better as lead singers than Totten, Cowsill, and Christian Love. Brian sings less and less. When Brian does sing, he doesn't always sound very good at all. Mike Love is sounding somewhat better than Brian these days, but he has bad days, too. Al sings pretty well, but he gets only three or so songs. Then add in the fact that there are an awful lot of additional lead singers for a show that supposedly is a Brian Wilson solo show (doesn't that imply he should be singing nearly all of it, as he did when he first toured, but no longer does?).

Brian's band is better musically due to having more pieces and having some great musicians, but in terms of a show, it's getting closer to a Beach Boys revue/tribute band than a true Brian Wilson tour.  I'd say Mike's band is more of a Beach Boys revue/tribute band than a real Beach Boys, as well.

Wow, I mean, wow!

[ontor pertawst]

I didn't say that the sound of the groups was identical. But there ain't that much difference in what people are seeing. Brian's band were playing 20-25 hits on the recent tour after all...

Right. With far more accurate renditions of the original arrangements, with more instruments and fuller harmonies. M&B can do stripped down versions and competent versions of the early stuff, but there's no way in hell they are remotely capable of pulling off Our Prayer/Heroes and Villains (mit der cantina!) even if Mike Love adored the song and desperately wanted to. Not without more musicians!

 If that stuff isn't important to you, there's very little difference I guess. If hearing the opening of Smile performed by people who care about it doesn't move you or make you think it's anything different than what Mike does, fine. There's veeeery little difference. Besides, the common man wants Stamos, not French Horns and fruity sh*t about cowboys!

I can understand the impulse to want to elevate Mike Love to Brian's equal musically to redress the terrible wrongs of history and received wisdom, but tying to pretend there isn't much difference in their touring bands is just total nonsense that insults a lot of talented musicians. You can big up M&B's players (like that kickass drummer!) for what they do without minimizing the BW band's strengths.

[KittyKat]

The point is, if Brian truly wants to get the Beach Boys name back, he has a point in that he has an somewhat similar situation to Mike in that there are a lot of people on stage who are singing Beach Boys songs who are not original Beach Boys. Also, Brian's show is becoming less and less of a Brian show. It's becoming more of a band show. Brian sang every lead when I saw him years ago. Now, he seems to be singing less and less, even though it's billed as "Brian Wilson." Since he's not called the Beach Boys, and he's not doing as much Brian Wilson-as-singer, then what is his act?  It is competitive with what Mike is doing, so that may be a factor in what both Mike and Brian are thinking if there is some kind of legal wrangling going on behind the scenes. Mike would argue that Brian is diluting the Beach Boys brand with a team of lead singers who aren't original Beach Boys masquerading as a Beach Boy type of act, and Brian could argue that Mike is doing the same, since Mike has a group of  people who aren't either him or Bruce doing a fair amount of lead singing.

[ontor pertawst]

His act is The Music of Brian Wilson.

With the man behind it sitting right there. Apparently that's a decent draw for his fans! I'm a big baby, hearing him sing God Only Knows on a good night makes me tear up and be glad to be alive and able to witness it. I guess maybe if he should try being more of a dynamic strutting frontman, like he's never been before. Would that make you happy?

Mike would argue that Brian is diluting the Beach Boys brand with a team of lead singers who aren't original Beach Boys masquerading as a Beach Boy type of act

I guess if he suddenly had some terrible brain injury he could try that, but Mike isn't on the apple juice any more.

[Nicko1234]

Right. With far more accurate renditions of the original arrangements, with more instruments and fuller harmonies. M&B can do stripped down versions and competent versions of the early stuff, but there's no way in hell they are remotely capable of pulling off Our Prayer/Heroes and Villains (mit der cantina!) even if Mike Love adored the song and desperately wanted to. Not without more musicians!

 If that stuff isn't important to you, there's very little difference I guess. If hearing the opening of Smile performed by people who care about it doesn't move you or make you think it's anything different than what Mike does, fine. There's veeeery little difference. Besides, the common man wants Stamos, not French Horns and fruity sh*t about cowboys!

It's actually an interesting point if you take a step back...

A while ago people were discussing this and there were several on the board who said that if it came to watching a greatest hits show that they would prefer to watch M&B rather than watch Brian's band. Partly because Brian can seem so disinterested when playing those songs and partly because Mike sang so many of them and his voice does sound much better than Brian's on those early hits. Musically there is a difference between the 2 groups but on the early hits it is nowhere near as pronounced as it would be on some other material.

Now Brian's band absolutely could play some songs that Mike's band couldn't or wouldn't play. In the recent setlists however they have largely chosen not to do that. As Mikeddonn commented a few posts earlier, the setlists are not as interesting or 'magical' as they once were.

I agree that Mike's group doesn't perform Our Prayer. But I don't think that 45 seconds of a live show suddenly means that they are as different as night and day.

[ontor pertawst]

You're dodging my point yet again. They can't do Our Prayer/Heroes and Villains (cantina version) the whole shebang, as it should sound. Not just 45 seconds of it, the whole thing. They have to strip down the arrangements because there are less musicians. This isn't a moral failing on Mike's part, it's just the reality of the number of people on stage capable of playing instruments.

I'm sure Bonhomme is a swell guy. But he can't play keyboard AND play vibes.

Now Brian's band absolutely could play some songs that Mike's band couldn't or wouldn't play. In the recent setlists however they have largely chosen not to do that. As Mikeddonn commented a few posts earlier, the setlists are not as interesting or 'magical' as they once were.

Great, I can point to all the other great reviews of the concerts on the board as well. The recent setlists have plenty of tracks M&B couldn't do half as competently, there's a lot of overlap because Brian Wilson is apparently described by some as this songwriting genius who wrote dozens of classics that people really, really wanna hear. Despite this, von Mertens sure managed to put together a tasty variation on the C50 shows for just a brief 8 date warmup and I can't wait to see what's next when they perform the new material.

Wake me when Mike writes new stuff.

I have to say, Old Man River/Cottonfields/Little Bird is plenty damn magical for me judging by the audience videos!

[Cam Mott]

There's merit in both. Brian's tries to be more like the BBs' albums experience which he had a big hand in. Mike's tries to be more like the classic Beach Boys' concerts which he had a big hand in. Imo.

[ontor pertawst]

Definitely! Maybe they compliment each other, then.

So I don't get where this urge to pretend both experiences are about the same comes from. It's a different approach!

[Cam Mott]

Definitely! Maybe they compliment each other, then.

So I don't get where this urge to pretend both experiences are about the same comes from. It's a different approach!

They'll have to answer but I took it as pointing out the similarities amongst the differences.

[Nicko1234]

Definitely! Maybe they compliment each other, then.

So I don't get where this urge to pretend both experiences are about the same comes from. It's a different approach!

Because on a lot of those early hits I don't think there is a huge amount of difference. And they both do play a hell of a lot of the early hits.

[drbeachboy]

The strange irony is that Brian's band as it is now is more and more like Mike's traveling oldies show.  It features  mediocre talents such as Jeff Foskett on lead vocals. It has Dave Marks on lead vocals, who is an okay/adequate guitarist (JF is better, IMO), but not much of a singer. Darian is okay, but nothing special. They're altogether not much better as lead singers than Totten, Cowsill, and Christian Love. Brian sings less and less. When Brian does sing, he doesn't always sound very good at all. Mike Love is sounding somewhat better than Brian these days, but he has bad days, too. Al sings pretty well, but he gets only three or so songs. Then add in the fact that there are an awful lot of additional lead singers for a show that supposedly is a Brian Wilson solo show (doesn't that imply he should be singing nearly all of it, as he did when he first toured, but no longer does?).

Brian's band is better musically due to having more pieces and having some great musicians, but in terms of a show, it's getting closer to a Beach Boys revue/tribute band than a true Brian Wilson tour.  I'd say Mike's band is more of a Beach Boys revue/tribute band than a real Beach Boys, as well.

And all of this took place when they were together for C50 too. So what's your point? They don't have a young Brian voice, nor do they have Carl Wilson's voice. They have to be replaced somehow. I know of no tribute bands with 2 or 3 or 5 members in them. Complain, complain, complain. I am totally convinced now, that no matter what they ever do, there will always be someone to find fault with it.

[Wirestone]

There's merit in both. Brian's tries to be more like the BBs' albums experience which he had a big hand in. Mike's tries to be more like the classic Beach Boys' concerts which he had a big hand in. Imo.

That's a very interesting point, and one that has a lot of merit. Brian's band members have always said that he reacts best and is most engaged when the band sounds most like the music he put down in the studio. And it's one of the reasons Foskett has had tensions with the rest of the band on occasion -- he learned the somewhat looser, smaller-band arrangements that Carl oversaw, and that's very much at odds with what Darian (who is perhaps the most important single guy in the band) and the more Wondermint-y types prefer.

As to any differences in setlists, it's really hard to compare in any systematic way, simply because Brian tours so little. His biggest tours have coincided with full-album performances (PS, Smile, TLOS and BWRG) -- something Mike has never attempted. When Brian played PS as a second set, his first sets had more rarities, simply because PS includes several must-play hits, thus freeing up space in the first. With Smile, the first set became somewhat surf-ier, given that Smile was so "out there" and included fewer outright hits. With the two most recent album-tours, the second-set material was all new, which meant the first sets pretty much had to include a few more hits to please a general audience.

This most current BAD tour wasn't quite a by-the-numbers as suggested -- including Old Man River, Little Bird, and Breakaway is a good move, and it's nice to see Goin' Home as well. No one does more justice to Brian's softer, more orchestral material than his own group.

But in the interests of fairness, Totten does lead an expert ensemble, and the difference between the touring groups has narrowed more than I expect most thought possible in the early 2000s. It ends up being whether you want to see a sprawling, orchestral pop show or a tight, exciting surf-rock one.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

There's merit in both. Brian's tries to be more like the BBs' albums experience which he had a big hand in. Mike's tries to be more like the classic Beach Boys' concerts which he had a big hand in. Imo.

That's a very interesting point, and one that has a lot of merit. Brian's band members have always said that he reacts best and is most engaged when the band sounds most like the music he put down in the studio. And it's one of the reasons Foskett has had tensions with the rest of the band on occasion -- he learned the somewhat looser, smaller-band arrangements that Carl oversaw, and that's very much at odds with what Darian (who is perhaps the most important single guy in the band) and the more Wondermint-y types prefer.

As to any differences in setlists, it's really hard to compare in any systematic way, simply because Brian tours so little. His biggest tours have coincided with full-album performances (PS, Smile, TLOS and BWRG) -- something Mike has never attempted. When Brian played PS as a second set, his first sets had more rarities, simply because PS includes several must-play hits, thus freeing up space in the first. With Smile, the first set became somewhat surf-ier, given that Smile was so "out there" and included fewer outright hits. With the two most recent album-tours, the second-set material was all new, which meant the first sets pretty much had to include a few more hits to please a general audience.

This most current BAD tour wasn't quite a by-the-numbers as suggested -- including Old Man River, Little Bird, and Breakaway is a good move, and it's nice to see Goin' Home as well. No one does more justice to Brian's softer, more orchestral material than his own group.

But in the interests of fairness, Totten does lead an expert ensemble, and the difference between the touring ensembles has narrowed more than I expect most thought possible in the early 2000s. It ends up being whether you want to see a sprawling, orchestral pop show or a tight, exciting surf-rock one.

Excellent analysis both. What really tips the scale right now, for me, is the addition of "the voice",  Al Jardine, on lead and background vocals.

[Cam Mott]

I assume Brian is doing what he thinks appeals to his narrower solo fanbase and Mike is doing what he thinks appeals to the wider BBs' fanbase. There is going to be a lot of overlap.

[Heywood]

There are a few, and only a few, very vocal people on here who seem to be getting more delusional by the day!

[KittyKat]

There are a few, and only a few, very vocal people on here who seem to be getting more delusional by the day!

How is making personal attacks against posters contributing a damn thing to this board, dude?  You aren't man enough to state your own opinions, so if you have nothing nice to say or constructive to offer of your own, don't post, and don't read. It ain't rocket science, genius.