Billboard ariticle on Mike and song writing w/ Brian issues from last album

[ontor pertawst]

Who said anything about Capitol being involved in Mike & Brian's arrangement to write together?

I did, right up there.

 Love made the deal with Capitol with Joe Thomas based on the strength of those 4 tracks, not on the strength of unwritten Love/Wilson compositions. They honored their contractual obligations and promoted the product. If he didn't like the arrangement, it's his own fault for making it. Perhaps the money Capitol was offering sounded better than creative control at the time. It's all well and good to complain now, but when it was dealmaking time... none of this "in the room" sh*t came up.

Nostalgia for the way things were in the 60s sounds sweet when you're playing the oldies circuit, but it sure isn't in record company contracts.

[filledeplage]

"He has always had a remarkable ability to "translate" and make "available" what Brian is trying to convey with his music.  No one else has had that talent."

Nope, not Tony Asher, nor Van Dyke Parks, nor Roger Christian, etc.

None of those folks, were in the BB vision tank, at the outset of the band.

Those other talented guys seemed to work on "project-specific" music.  What is exciting about Mike is that he could shift gears across other genres, such as a soul theme, such as Wild Honey, and exactly why I mentioned it.  He grew in the job. And, is connected in a way that others might not be, despite their work on some specific music.  They've all been given credit.  

But, no one is singing "columnated ruins domino." And they are still singing Do It Again, I Get Around, Little St. Nick, Let Him Run Wild, The Man With All the Toys, The Warmth of the Sun, All Summer Long, California Girls, Darlin', Good Vibrations, I'm Waiting for the Day, Kiss Me, Baby, Please Let Me Wonder, etc.

Most are sung by rote, for nearly 50 years.

The biggest hits were Brian-Mike. This is objective. This is fact specific. No, it isn't politically correct, which is of no consequence. The body of work speaks for itself.

[ontor pertawst]

None of those folks, were in the BB vision tank, at the outset of the band.

So? That doesn't bolster your "No one else has had that talent" argument. You didn't claim nobody else was there at the outset of the band, you said no one else had the talent to "translate" and make "available" what Brian is trying to convey with his music. Shut Down, Little Deuce Coupe, Don't Worry Baby. That's just Roger Christian. You're telling me they aren't as effective as the early Mike Love lyrics?

They aren't as direct, as clever with their rhymes? Nonsense. Absolute nonsense that only Mike had this ability. Mike wishes he wrote Shut Down and Little Deuce Coupe and you know it. He's sang their pseudo-intellectual rhymes about cars thousands of times! You can concentrate on VDP to try to make the distinctions between Love and Brian's other collaborators greater, but when you bring Christian and Usher into it... sorry. This argument crumbles.

[drbeachboy]

A ML-lead BBs album would go unreleased. He is just too cynical in his lyrics these days.

No one ever said it would be led by Mike. If Mike & Brian made a deal to do the album with a caveat being that he & Brian would write together, then Brian only threw Mike a bone to help write 3 out of the additional 7 needed, then Mike might have felt duped. If what you guys say is correct, Mike was given 2 songs already written, one Mike archival song, and one song written from scratch. We don't even know how complete the 4 played for Capitol were. I can see Mike being upset about not being included in the writing of those remaining songs, or at least on some of them.

[drbeachboy]

Who said anything about Capitol being involved in Mike & Brian's arrangement to write together?

I did, right up there.

 Love made the deal with Capitol with Joe Thomas based on the strength of those 4 tracks, not on the strength of unwritten Love/Wilson compositions. They honored their contractual obligations and promoted the product. If he didn't like the arrangement, it's his own fault for making it. Perhaps the money Capitol was offering sounded better than creative control at the time. It's all well and good to complain now, but when it was dealmaking time... none of this "in the room" sh*t came up.

Nostalgia for the way things were in the 60s sounds well and good when you're playing the oldies circuit, but it sure isn't in record company contracts.

Well, you're wrong! The deal was made by Brian & Joe with Mike brought in later. And that LATER could have been after Mike's talk with Brian about writing together. You are making assumptions about how it went down, when none of us are sure. 

[ontor pertawst]

So Joe Thomas is lying about the origins of the record deal then?

It obviously wasn't in the Capitol deal that it be a Wilson/Love partnership right down the middle with songs written together in a room. If it was, that would've happened. If it WAS in the deal and Mike Love was betrayed, clearly he should've fought harder at the time to make sure everyone honored their agreements. I don't recall many stories about Mike being a weak pushover when money and legal issues are concerned, so yes - I'm assuming they followed their contracts. Which didn't specify Wilson/Love compositions. 

Mike should've gotten a better deal if this was important to him at the time. I'm assuming it wasn't since we're only hearing about it now.

[filledeplage]

None of those folks, were in the BB vision tank, at the outset of the band.

So? That doesn't bolster your "No one else has had that talent" argument. You didn't claim nobody else was there at the outset of the band, you said no one else had the talent to "translate" and make "available" what Brian is trying to convey with his music. Shut Down, Little Deuce Coupe, Don't Worry Baby. That's just Roger Christian. You're telling me they aren't as effective as the early Mike Love lyrics?

They aren't as direct, as clever with their rhymes? Nonsense. Absolute nonsense that only Mike had this ability. Mike wishes he wrote Shut Down and Little Deuce Coupe and you know it. You can concentrate on VDP to try to make the distinctions between Love and Brian's other collaborators greater, but when you bring Christian and Usher into it... sorry. This argument crumbles.

Please watch Endless Harmony. Also, please make a list as long or as time lengthy as the Brian and Mike collaboration.  

And, I'm not getting into Parks.  I love his work on Popeye. And do like SMiLE and got the vinyl on Day One.

But, he is a "project writer" - he isn't and doesn't seem to fit with BB themes and vision.  I think it is mutual.  I turned off with him when he got an injunction against that artist in NY, that I felt was a wonderful educational tribute to the artwork and lyrics, which in my opinion gave him and the artist good publicity and not bad.  We all started (boomers) young and got many helping hands on the way up, and mentors. He could have been a mentor and hero. He missed that opportunity.  

[ontor pertawst]

For not getting into Parks, you sure take a lot of cheap shots at Parks. It's a good thing he doesn't need anybody doing damage control for him online unlike certain baseball capped men with chronic foot in mouth disease!

You're still not making your case for why the lyrics to Don't Worry Baby, Little Deuce Coupe, and Shut Down don't work with Brian's music as well as Mike's stuff. Cmon, how does that work! Those are amazing, classic songs with lyrics the equal of anything from Love's pen, so what's the missing ingredient preventing them from being one with the band's vision?

[Mike's Beard]

So Joe Thomas is lying about the origins of the record deal then?

It obviously wasn't in the Capitol deal that it be a Wilson/Love partnership right down the middle with songs written together in a room. If it was, that would've happened. If it WAS in the deal and Mike Love was betrayed, clearly he should've fought harder at the time to make sure everyone honored their agreements. I don't recall many stories about Mike being a weak pushover when money and legal issues are concerned, so yes - I'm assuming they followed their contracts. Which didn't specify Wilson/Love compositions. 

Mike should've gotten a better deal if this was important to him at the time. I'm assuming it wasn't since we're only hearing about it now.

The C50 was a guaranteed cash grab and I'm betting Mike was more than willing to put up with a Thomas/Wilson set up for a limited time due to the huge payoff. However when talk of making the reunion a more permanent thing sprang up, I think that's when Mike became more vocal in his desire in getting to write with Brian one on one in that mythical room. That's my guess/take on it anyway.

[filledeplage]

For not getting into Parks, you sure take a lot of cheap shots at Parks. It's a good thing he doesn't need anybody doing damage control for him online unlike certain baseball capped men with chronic foot in mouth disease!

You're still not making your case for why Don't Worry Baby, Little Deuce Coupe, and Shut Down don't work with Brian's music as well as Mike's stuff. Cmon, how does that work! Those are amazing early songs and the equal of anything from Love's pen, so what's the missing ingredient preventing them from being one with the band's vision?

OK - you got why I'm not happy with Parks.  And, prior, I really liked his work, even outside BB land.

The car themed songs were worked on by Roger Christian.  That is theme-based.  The C50 Google interview is online and you'll hear Johnston sing his praises with the car-specific jargon for the car song lyrics.  Looks like "contract work" to me.

I crack up with Little Deuce Coupe. One of my kids always called it, "little 2 scoops" - as in ice cream!

Please try to find the good qualities in all members of the band, apart from the factions.  It makes it REALLY easy to look objectively at their work. I guess it is easy for me after grading so many papers.  I just look at each one separately.  Please see this interview.  

[drbeachboy]

So Joe Thomas is lying about the origins of the record deal then?

It obviously wasn't in the Capitol deal that it be a Wilson/Love partnership right down the middle with songs written together in a room. If it was, that would've happened. If it WAS in the deal and Mike Love was betrayed, clearly he should've fought harder at the time to make sure everyone honored their agreements. I don't recall many stories about Mike being a weak pushover when money and legal issues are concerned, so yes - I'm assuming they followed their contracts. Which didn't specify Wilson/Love compositions.  

Mike should've gotten a better deal if this was important to him at the time. I'm assuming it wasn't since we're only hearing about it now.

Maybe Mike should have gotten it in writing, but I have never read anything to contradict my statements to you. It was a verbal agreement between Brian & Mike that most likely took place between Brian going to Capitol to pitch the new album and Mike being brought in to seal the deal. You are very Brian-centric in this whole discussion, while you know that something different went down after what was originally agreed to. I think both guys are at fault here. Mike should have known better than completely trust Brian, while Brian should have stuck to his verbal agreement with Mike. I still think Brian did this the way he did because there just wasn't enough time to do a full album mostly from scratch. Shoot, as it was. they barely finished in time to start rehearsals for the tour.

[ontor pertawst]

It makes it REALLY easy to look objectively at their work.

Thing is, objectivity is generally something OTHER people praise you for. Not what you toot your own horn about, as it's not exactly... very objective?

I'm glad you consider yourself eminently fair-minded and reasonable and took a moment to remind us, this clearly must make your opinions more valid than mine.

You're still not making the point as to how "theme-based" "contract work" doesn't fit with Brian's music and work with the vision of the band. These are unstoppable monster classics that have been performed by hundreds of bands since they were written and thousands of times by Mike Love, who is very careful about pruning and manicuring HIS version of The Beach Boys vision. Which includes hearty helpings of Christian, Usher, and Asher. The fact that they got royalties instead of Mike Love does not make them hackwork that doesn't fit Mike's beautiful vision of an endless summer. Just ask Mike's setlists.

[mikeddonn]

Don't forget Surf City.  I'm sure Mike would have liked a credit on that one!  Having read all the previous pages of this thread I want to add my two cents.

I like all the Beach Boys and all their albums (even SIP!).  Some are works of art, others are enjoyable and there's something for all occasions. However, as I've posted elsewhere, people here are deluding themselves if they think these guys can write as consistently and as prolific as they did in their 20s.  They struggled in the 1970s do do it why would it be any different now?  I have met Mike and he was gracious and seemed like a decent guy.  I also don't have blinkers on when it comes to Brian.  However, some of the stuff Mike has written lyrically (constantly referencing hits from the past) are uninspired to say the least.  I don't mind cheesy lyrics from either guy as long as they fit the song.  However, Mike keeps rehashing old lyrics and concepts. Everything has to be about going to the beach in a woodie, listening to fun, fun, fun, while picking up good vibrations from a surfer girl.  This from a guy who wrote lyrics for Warmth of the Sun and Pacific Ocean Blues (with cousin Dennis) et al.  When he writes now he becomes a parody of his former self.  Brian has also done the same thing over the years but at least this is not his main thing, and he still tries to write from the hear or with collaborators.  He has always chosen guys to work with to keep it fresh, then move onto the next lyricist.  Sometimes people might feel 'used' but that's what he's always done.  You can force kids to be friends with or hang out with those they don't want to.  So why do people on here say Brian needs to get in a room with Mike?  It seems he doesn't want to any more than he wants to hang out with VDP or Tony Asher et al.  TWGMTR would not have been a better album with more Mike lyrics.  The last three songs in particular are a fitting way to end the last studio album of the original Beach Boys.  What a journey!

Another thing, it's been asked before.  Why can't Brian take the same approach and tell Mike that BAD are making a new Beach Boys album and he can be on it or not?  Didn't Mike do this with SIP?

[ontor pertawst]

He has always chosen guys to work with to keep it fresh, then move onto the next lyricist.  Sometimes people might feel 'used' but that's what he's always done.  You can force kids to be friends with or hang out with those they don't want to.  So why do people on here say Brian needs to get in a room with Mike?  It seems he doesn't want to any more than he wants to hang out with VDP or Tony Asher et al.  TWGMTR would not have been a better album with more Mike lyrics.  The last three songs in particular are a fitting way to end the last studio album of the original Beach Boys.  What a journey!

Boy, ain't that the truth.

Initially I was a little annoyed by the folks seemingly crowing about the end of the reunion last year who kept reminding us about set end dates... but. Yeah. It's an appropriate ending, a helluva ride, and it seems Brian ended up with his original idea of making Summer's Gone the last ever Beach Boys song.

Mike should keep playing the fairs and casinos rehashing the hits for those who want it and having fun on the road comparing hats with Bruce, Brian can keep tinkering in the studio with an ever shifting cast of collaborators as has been his pattern all his life, Al and David can help out and take some of the pressure off him on stage. It all seems to be an ok way to go. I kinda wish they'd retire The Beach Boys name, but I understand how that would hurt Mike's wallet and ego. He doesn't have an audience touring under his own name like Brian does... so let him have it, everybody gets paid, Mike can no longer put out shitty records under The Beach Boys name and the legacy is secured and no flame is in danger of dying out. WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN!

He is gonna get a lot of sh*t when he does whiny interviews like this, tho! It doesn't suit a man his age to look so silly and it's not surprising the word douchebag gets slung around in the online comments sections.

[Bicyclerider]

"If Brian wants the BB license, I imagine it be a 2-2 tie. Brian may not need the money from Mike's shows but Carl's estate probably likes the cash."

Why would Brian want the license?  He can tour as Brian Wilson and keep all the money AND he gets a percentage from Mike's shows.  It's a win-win.  I think Brian liked touring under the Beach Boys name for the 50th tour but after being "fired" (yeah, I know) he's over it.

[ontor pertawst]

An interesting comment from Larry Dvoskin there:

"What you sow is what you reap, come to mind:

Mike 1000% c*ck blocked Al Jardine & Bruce from having any of their songs on the record out of self interest. "Waves Of Love" written by Al Jardine & myself features a guest vocal by late , great Carl Wilson and was declared by the CEO of Clear Channel to be the BEST NEW Beach Boys song in 30 years....

Now That's Why God Made The Radio..and if you stand in the way of the best music foot forward...

What goes around comes around..."

[Heysaboda]

Meh

I have great respect for Mike Love as singer, writer, band leader, etc.  He is one of the 'Rock Gods'.  But these articles just make him seem whiney.  Wah wah wah

[mikeddonn]

I thought they would have jumped at the chance to get some Carl vocals on the album.  I would have enjoyed it too!

[Nicko1234]

An interesting comment from Larry Dvoskin there:

"What you sow is what you reap, come to mind:

Mike 1000% c*ck blocked Al Jardine & Bruce from having any of their songs on the record out of self interest. "Waves Of Love" written by Al Jardine & myself features a guest vocal by late , great Carl Wilson and was declared by the CEO of Clear Channel to be the BEST NEW Beach Boys song in 30 years....

Now That's Why God Made The Radio..and if you stand in the way of the best music foot forward...

What goes around comes around..."

I guess everybody in this story is an unreliable witness and Dvoskin is no different.

Brian's disinterest in Waves of Love is well known and Bruce doesn't seem to be too angry with Mike for She Believes in Love being omitted.

[Micha]

I always had a feeling Mike doesn't like Al very much

Mike's regretting it wasn't him who broke Al's leg.

I was mad as hell when I found out Carl walked out of the '95 sessions (he did sing on SIP after all)  but later realized it could have been due to illness.

I'm sad rather than angry. I don't know Carl's reasons, but if I had been Carl, the reason would have been that I was once more excluded from the creative process, only used as a session singer.

I'm angry that Brian refused to work on Al's "Waves Of Love"!!!

[ontor pertawst]

I guess everybody in this story is an unreliable witness and Dvoskin is no different.

Brian's disinterest in Waves of Love is well known and Bruce doesn't seem to be too angry with Mike for She Believes in Love being omitted.

Yeah, but it's telling Mike doesn't go the route of sticking up for all of the band and championing the whole group pitching in songs like they used to. It'd make his whines sound a little more noble if he stuck up for the actual band vs. Thomas Inc. Instead it's all pretty selfish, isn't it. Me me me me I I I I room room room.

[filledeplage]

It makes it REALLY easy to look objectively at their work.

Thing is, objectivity is generally something OTHER people praise you for. Not what you toot your own horn about, as it's not exactly... very objective?

I'm glad you consider yourself eminently fair-minded and reasonable and took a moment to remind us, this clearly must make your opinions more valid than mine.

You're still not making the point as to how "theme-based" "contract work" doesn't fit with Brian's music and work with the vision of the band. These are unstoppable monster classics that have been performed by hundreds of bands since they were written and thousands of times by Mike Love, who is very careful about pruning and manicuring HIS version of The Beach Boys vision. Which includes hearty helpings of Christian, Usher, and Asher. The fact that they got royalties instead of Mike Love does not make them hackwork that doesn't fit Mike's beautiful vision of an endless summer. Just ask Mike's setlists.

Sorry, I don't agree. I often try to remember one of my former principals who was Harvard educated and he reminded us of the difference between an "opinion" and "an informed opinion." One is just "one without research."  The other is "with information." I like the latter.  Most times that I post here, I check facts first, or re-watch a video. And, I still make plenty of mistakes, and get "called out."  No problem.   I "lurked" for two years before I posted in this "shark tank."  

And, I watched the google C50 interview, many times, on my streamer, where the theme-based stuff was discussed and Christian was described as a "gear-head" who had that lingo ready-to-go for those car song lyrics. (More to Mike's credit to step aside as primary lyricist, in the interest of the Band output.)

That makes mine "informed."  I watched Endless Harmony many times, so when I ask you to do the same, and say "please" I get a hostile remark.  Brian does say that he would have loved to have sung on Kokomo.  Straight from the horse's mouth.  Brian.  Some people don't want to hear this.  It is what it is. On a movie.

I can't tell you about Mike's vision.  His "vision" is likely controlled by BRI contract.  They tell him what the "vision" is.  And, despite all the bad-mouthing, he sells out show after show.  And, if he has a story to tell, whether in a book or an interview, maybe people should listen to all sides of the story and be informed.  

Just please, make the list of songs, and count.  That's all.  Count Asher's, Christian's, Usher's, Parks' and Thomas' work. How many hits?  Over how many years?

[ontor pertawst]

I dunno, but perusing this list... the unifying strand seems to be Brian Wilson music with Beach Boys singing the words. Doesn't matter whose words as long as it's those gorgeous harmonies with the right genetic mix!

If you think Mike sells out show after show in 2013, clearly our definitions of objective are wildly divergent.

The rest of your post had too many quotes and condescension to address, so let's just agree to disagree and go play "Student Demonstration Time" 12 times to clear our sinuses.

[Nicko1234]

I guess everybody in this story is an unreliable witness and Dvoskin is no different.

Brian's disinterest in Waves of Love is well known and Bruce doesn't seem to be too angry with Mike for She Believes in Love being omitted.

Yeah, but it's telling Mike doesn't go the route of sticking up for all of the band and championing the whole group pitching in songs like they used to. It'd make his whines sound a little more noble if he stuck up for the actual band vs. Thomas Inc. Instead it's all pretty selfish, isn't it. Me me me me I I I I room room room.

I don't think it's a big deal to be honest. Mike isn't working with Brian because he wants to do his own thing. Fair enough.

We are all pretty selfish and that goes for Dvoskin too I guess. His comment is essentially, 'I wrote a great song but my wonderful song wasn't allowed on the album'...

[ontor pertawst]

No, his point seems to be that it's ironic Mike Love is complaining about not getting enough songwriting credits when he prevented others from getting songwriting credits. He seems to be enjoying it enough to say what goes around comes around twice.

You're not processing that part because it reflects poorly on Mike Love. It might be absolute bullshit for all we know, but the guy IS making a point you're not registering. Or pretending not to.