Has Mike Expressed Remorse On Whatever Role He May Have Played in Smile's Demise

[rab2591]

^this

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I can't answer because I don't know anyway that Mike hurt Brian's feelings. Refresh my memory please. I don't think he should apologize for someone's assumptions. Should he apologize because someone didn't think they liked him?

Al and Bruce have said they were humiliated being required to lay on the floor and sing and make animal noises. Should they apologize for being humiliated?

No. In that instance, Brian ought to appologize for hurting their feelings. Please don't put words in our mouthes. Or ignore half of the argument against your claims--Brian and VDP agree that he didn't seem supportive at all. This attitude of hostility by Mike to outside collaborators of Brian's demonstrates a pattern of behavior which is reasonable to assume was repeated in 67 and deeply hurt Brian. Again, not the big bad sadistic killer of SMiLE, but a bit obnoxious and careless.

Wait, wait, wait a second! You're taking Mike asking what some lyrics mean't and "not seeming supportive at all" and turning it into "an attitude of hostility by Mike to outside collaborators of Brian's" and then turning that into a "pattern of behavior" which you then assume was repeated in 67 and deeply hurt Brian and was "obnoxious and careless?" ..... Isn't that something of a stretch?

This is what keeps getting me about these discussions: taking one's opinion and adjusting what he know to fit this opinion, and then turning around and using the opinion as somehow supporting the facts...

As far as I can gather, the only person outwardly hostile to outside collaborators was Murray.

There's more to the story than the Cabin Essence fight and what is recorded on the Sessions. You're ignoring the fact that the testimonies support each other, and combine to give us a clear consistent picture of Mike's abrasive personality. I'm not just saying "Derp, I don't like Mike. He didn't like some lyrics so that means he is everything wrong with the world!"

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I can't answer because I don't know anyway that Mike hurt Brian's feelings. Refresh my memory please. I don't think he should apologize for someone's assumptions. Should he apologize because someone didn't think they liked him?

Al and Bruce have said they were humiliated being required to lay on the floor and sing and make animal noises. Should they apologize for being humiliated?

No. In that instance, Brian ought to appologize for hurting their feelings. Please don't put words in our mouthes. Or ignore half of the argument against your claims--Brian and VDP agree that he didn't seem supportive at all. This attitude of hostility by Mike to outside collaborators of Brian's demonstrates a pattern of behavior which is reasonable to assume was repeated in 67 and deeply hurt Brian. Again, not the big bad sadistic killer of SMiLE, but a bit obnoxious and careless.

Mike doing this 48 years later proves what? Will Smile automatically reappear as a 1967 release? Will history be changed? Personally, I think that the Beach Boys historians have proved that no matter what any band members thought about Smile, that if Brian had really wanted Smile finished and released, then it would have been indeed, finished and released. What happened with Smile was on Brian, and Brian only.

How about reading all of my contributions in this thread before opening your mouth? I've given a fair, nuanced take on Mike, I'm not laying the blame for SMiLE at his feet, he is a factor in it, however. An apology is not owed us or Brian for SMiLE as I've said. But it would be a humble, thoughtful gesture on Mike's part. Will it change history? No. But it may sooth old wounds, diminish the barrier and resentment that clearly exists between the two, and help each get some emotional weight off their chest. In Mike's case, it could save his reputation before it's too late.

No it will not, especially after 48 years. Why would Mike or any other band member apologize for something they had no control over? Also, none of us really know what has and what has not been said between them over the years. Btw, I've read all of the posts in this thread, but to tell the truth it was getting all kinds of stupid rehashing this crap for the umpteenth hundred time. Talking about it for the next fifty years will not change a single thing regarding the final outcome of Smile.

You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying Mike apologize for "killing" SMiLE. I don't blame him for SMiLE never being finished. His tactlessness was what made him Mike. This time tho, it was strike 9 or so on a long list of contributing factors. Forgive me for "rehashing" the topic, but I find it interesting and want to discuss it. Not all of us were around for the Smile Shop days or the history of this forum. If you dont want to talk about it, just go on scrolling. But what good is a community that discourages genuine input?

Idk what has been said privately. You're right. But Mike sure hasn't expressed any regret or sympathy in public in all the times he's been asked about this. I've never claimed he owed anybody an apology but don't you think it would reflect better on him, put a rest to the clashing egos and give the fans peace of mind and for many, more respect for Mike as a person?

[Nicko1234]

No. In that instance, Brian ought to appologize for hurting their feelings.

This is not how human beings behave though is it. We all as human beings unintentionally hurt people`s feelings from time to time but nobody looks back across their whole life and apologizes for every mistake that they have made over the past 50 years.

Should Carl have apologized for not rating Mount Vernon?

Should Al have apologized for recording a new version of Cottonfields?

Where would it end? It is not faintly realistic.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

No. In that instance, Brian ought to appologize for hurting their feelings.

This is not how human beings behave though is it. We all as human beings unintentionally hurt people`s feeling from time to time but nobody looks back across their whole life and apologizes for every mistake that they have made over the past 50 years.

Should Carl have apologized for not rating Mount Vernon?

Should Al have apologized for recording a new version of Cottonfields?

Where would it end? It is not faintly realistic.

Not saying Brian must go out of his way to apologize to them. Someone presented a hypothetical. If they felt bad and opened up to him about it, he ought to apologize. It's obvious there's some heart feelings between Mike and Brian, tho. About SMiLE? I'm sure that, like in '67, it's but strike nine or so on a long list of grievances and unaddressed feelings of rejection and resentment. But in all the times he's been asked, it's not unreasonable to wonder why Mike seems to show no hindsight, no empathy for everything he now knows his cousin was going through and how much Brian needed all the support he could get from everyone even after all these years. That says a lot about him as a person. Sure, he doesn't *owe* Brian an apology. But it'd be the mature, respectful thing to do. Even if you don't think he has anything to apologize for, it seems like the other remaining BBs and a good chunk of the fanbase does. Complying could only benefit Mike.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

No. In that instance, Brian ought to appologize for hurting their feelings.

This is not how human beings behave though is it. We all as human beings unintentionally hurt people`s feeling from time to time but nobody looks back across their whole life and apologizes for every mistake that they have made over the past 50 years.

Should Carl have apologized for not rating Mount Vernon?

Should Al have apologized for recording a new version of Cottonfields?

Where would it end? It is not faintly realistic.

Not saying Brian must go out of his way to apologize to them. Someone presented a hypothetical. If they felt bad and opened up to him about it, he ought to apologize. It's obvious there's some heart feelings between Mike and Brian, tho. About SMiLE? I'm sure that, like in '67, it's but strike nine or so on a long list of grievances and unaddressed feelings of rejection and resentment. But in all the times he's been asked, it's not unreasonable to wonder why Mike seems to show no hindsight, no empathy for everything he now knows his cousin was going through and how much Brian needed all the support he could get from everyone even after all these years. That says a lot about him as a person. Sure, he doesn't *owe* Brian an apology. But it'd be the mature, respectful thing to do. Even if you don't think he has anything to apologize for, it seems like the other remaining BBs and a good chunk of the fanbase does. Complying could only benefit Mike.

I like your use of loaded language to make Mike look as bad as possible. Like the "Cabinessence flight" .... Fight? Really?

And how on earth are we to know that Mike hasn't apologized to Brian repeatedly for anything having to do with SMILE?

[Nicko1234]

Not saying Brian must go out of his way to apologize to them. Someone presented a hypothetical. If they felt bad and opened up to him about it, he ought to apologize. It's obvious there's some heart feelings between Mike and Brian, tho. About SMiLE? I'm sure that, like in '67, it's but strike nine or so on a long list of grievances and unaddressed feelings of rejection and resentment. But in all the times he's been asked, it's not unreasonable to wonder why Mike seems to show no hindsight, no empathy for everything he now knows his cousin was going through and how much Brian needed all the support he could get from everyone even after all these years. That says a lot about him as a person. Sure, he doesn't *owe* Brian an apology. But it'd be the mature, respectful thing to do. Even if you don't think he has anything to apologize for, it seems like the other remaining BBs and a good chunk of the fanbase does. Complying could only benefit Mike.

Mike says exactly what I think people should expect when people talk to him about Smile. He is not about to admit any culpability after 47 years and, in his mind, he probably thinks that if Brian was hurt by anything it is because Brian wasn`t strong enough at that point to deal with things healthy people could have dealt with which is true to a large extent.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

No. In that instance, Brian ought to appologize for hurting their feelings.

This is not how human beings behave though is it. We all as human beings unintentionally hurt people`s feeling from time to time but nobody looks back across their whole life and apologizes for every mistake that they have made over the past 50 years.

Should Carl have apologized for not rating Mount Vernon?

Should Al have apologized for recording a new version of Cottonfields?

Where would it end? It is not faintly realistic.

Not saying Brian must go out of his way to apologize to them. Someone presented a hypothetical. If they felt bad and opened up to him about it, he ought to apologize. It's obvious there's some heart feelings between Mike and Brian, tho. About SMiLE? I'm sure that, like in '67, it's but strike nine or so on a long list of grievances and unaddressed feelings of rejection and resentment. But in all the times he's been asked, it's not unreasonable to wonder why Mike seems to show no hindsight, no empathy for everything he now knows his cousin was going through and how much Brian needed all the support he could get from everyone even after all these years. That says a lot about him as a person. Sure, he doesn't *owe* Brian an apology. But it'd be the mature, respectful thing to do. Even if you don't think he has anything to apologize for, it seems like the other remaining BBs and a good chunk of the fanbase does. Complying could only benefit Mike.

I like your use of loaded language to make Mike look as bad as possible. Like the "Cabinessence flight" .... Fight? Really?

And how on earth are we to know that Mike hasn't apologized to Brian repeatedly for anything having to do with SMILE?

I said fight, not "flight." I'm not sure if it's 100% accurate on this, but my main source is the "Catch a Wave" biography which presents Mike as exceedingly obnoxious in the encounter. Something went down that day for it to be so vividly remembered by all parties and so well known against the many many sessions of the era. Not a fist fight or a shouting match but probably an exchange of personal put downs all around at worst or one caustic remark too many...it was a turning point for VDP's commitment to the project, perhaps a seed of doubt planted amongst all Brian's other issues...

I've used the term "Cabin Essence Incident" before which I concede is a more accurate way to refer to it. Regardless, Van only quit when a more lucrative deal came along, Mike still sang the Tag, Brian still ultimately made the call to shelve it all. But this definitely helped stall the momentum of '66 and begin the period of doubt (1967's months of overworking H&V and cannibalizing the album for a single but unsure what it should be...

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

No. In that instance, Brian ought to appologize for hurting their feelings.

This is not how human beings behave though is it. We all as human beings unintentionally hurt people`s feeling from time to time but nobody looks back across their whole life and apologizes for every mistake that they have made over the past 50 years.

Should Carl have apologized for not rating Mount Vernon?

Should Al have apologized for recording a new version of Cottonfields?

Where would it end? It is not faintly realistic.

Not saying Brian must go out of his way to apologize to them. Someone presented a hypothetical. If they felt bad and opened up to him about it, he ought to apologize. It's obvious there's some heart feelings between Mike and Brian, tho. About SMiLE? I'm sure that, like in '67, it's but strike nine or so on a long list of grievances and unaddressed feelings of rejection and resentment. But in all the times he's been asked, it's not unreasonable to wonder why Mike seems to show no hindsight, no empathy for everything he now knows his cousin was going through and how much Brian needed all the support he could get from everyone even after all these years. That says a lot about him as a person. Sure, he doesn't *owe* Brian an apology. But it'd be the mature, respectful thing to do. Even if you don't think he has anything to apologize for, it seems like the other remaining BBs and a good chunk of the fanbase does. Complying could only benefit Mike.

I like your use of loaded language to make Mike look as bad as possible. Like the "Cabinessence flight" .... Fight? Really?

And how on earth are we to know that Mike hasn't apologized to Brian repeatedly for anything having to do with SMILE?

I said fight, not "flight." I'm not sure if it's 100% accurate on this, but my main source is the "Catch a Wave" biography which presents Mike as exceedingly obnoxious in the encounter. Something went down that day for it to be so vividly remembered by all parties and so well known against the many many sessions of the era. Not a fist fight or a shouting match but probably an exchange of personal put downs all around at worst or one caustic remark too many...it was a turning point for VDP's commitment to the project, perhaps a seed of doubt planted amongst all Brian's other issues...

I've used the term "Cabin Essence Incident" before which I concede is a more accurate way to refer to it. Regardless, Van only quit when a more lucrative deal came along, Mike still sang the Tag, Brian still ultimately made the call.

Once again you are just speculating and using language to paint Mike as badly as possible. We can see the strings, man. If you are going to use Carlin's writing as your example, at least recount it correctly.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Not saying Brian must go out of his way to apologize to them. Someone presented a hypothetical. If they felt bad and opened up to him about it, he ought to apologize. It's obvious there's some heart feelings between Mike and Brian, tho. About SMiLE? I'm sure that, like in '67, it's but strike nine or so on a long list of grievances and unaddressed feelings of rejection and resentment. But in all the times he's been asked, it's not unreasonable to wonder why Mike seems to show no hindsight, no empathy for everything he now knows his cousin was going through and how much Brian needed all the support he could get from everyone even after all these years. That says a lot about him as a person. Sure, he doesn't *owe* Brian an apology. But it'd be the mature, respectful thing to do. Even if you don't think he has anything to apologize for, it seems like the other remaining BBs and a good chunk of the fanbase does. Complying could only benefit Mike.

Mike says exactly what I think people should expect when people talk to him about Smile. He is not about to admit any culpability after 47 years and, in his mind, he probably thinks that if Brian was hurt by anything it is because Brian wasn`t strong enough at that point to deal with things healthy people could have dealt with which is true to a large extent.

It's his cousin. And he now has no excuse not to know all the complex, crippling issues Brian had to deal with on top of Mike's usual abrasiveness (perhaps increased from usual considering he probably felt completely rejected for being left out of the creative process yet again) A decent person ought to be a bit more reflective and empathetic when looking back. I hope Mike has apologized behind closed doors if not to the public for his part (however small) in Brian's breakdown.

[guitarfool2002]

Re: The Cabinessence incident.

It's tough to say this knowing we'll probably never see/hear the footage, but an incident was captured on film by the CBS crew, and the session cryptically described in the filming notes describing the reels. Oppenheim references the session by song lyrics and vocals being recorded.

This stuff in yellow font I copied and saved from a discussion I got into online back in 2002, and you'll see the actual notes from Oppenheim plus how I tried to decipher them to fit an infamous "bad" session. Check it out.




BVs to "Wonderful" & "Cabin Essence" were cut at the same session, as reported by Jules Siegel (granted he didn't name the songs) but noted that "earlier in the evening  the film crew had covered a Beach Boys vocal session which had gone very badly. Now, at midnight, The Beach Boys had gone home...".  The footage notation makes it clear that the band were initially there and the titles of tracks worked on.


Just to back this up from AGD's post, this is the original film notation I'm re-posting, reels 84-90:


84
9. Let's work on microphone
boys around mike
Do wa


85 Brian at piano working out
Yodelledo
then group sings at mike


86 Group around mike Yodelledo
Playback Yodelledoo's control in b.g.
Inside control room Group & Engineer Da daum(?)
Go out into studio Brian eating cereal record da da da


Beach Boys


86

1. around mike Yodeladeeo pan to Piano
Brian walks out frame(?) to outside booth playback
walks to control board

2. Brian talking ?? (bad pa toheps) to engineer
3. dark 4/s listening to playback
Brian goes to ?? (sirke?!) eats, put on headphones
sing dine dine

Scratch

87
1. control board thru window track on(?)
dine dine
Let's go have some Zen accompaniment
2. Brian at piano from behind
plays chords


87
engineer thru glass to group in(?) b.g. record da da
group comes back into room & listens to da da da
let's go lets have some zen compliment

Brian at piano from behind accomp. to Surf's up
to hands to face CL around to x & back to CL


88 Brian eating
headphones listening to piano track
sings lead on(?) thru piano
1 more time
--> tone(?) & start again side view CL
-> start at 2nd verse hung velvet
misses the glass
pickup hung velvet stop at dove nested
have echo on me
pickup again at hung velvet


89 Overdubs
hung velvet lead on(?) ?? (jumoles?!?!) -- let's overdub
it
move to CR side (?).s. 11(?) more around behind
move around to face CL he gestures
he talks while voice go(?)

mono mix - Id like it softer
let's go to top is that cool

LS CL overdub
LS hung velvet out sync
LS thru control room
2nd shot n.g.(?)
needle
recorder pan to engineer back to recorder


90
--> playback engineers bg Wilson fig.
fade in(?)
kneels -- can have muted trumpet go bleep(?)
move to us(?) half of Jules
Brian coat on walks out


In the span of these reels, Brian is working on and showing them the "yodel" harmony parts to "Wonderful" which they sing as a group, then the focus seems to shift to "Cabinessence" with the "dine dine dine" backing vocal parts, and then perhaps back to "Wonderful" with the "da da da da" countermelody vocal part as heard on the box set version.

So that is hard to dispute. This is the group session in question, the one AGD is describing.

Then, mention is made of Brian doing Surf's Up, and one reel places Jules Seigel at the scene for further validation (and it was his article which for years was the main research source for this incident).

Before that, though, at reel 87 it seems like a break may have been called "Let's go have some Zen...", and just prior to that notation the group was definitely there in the studio to listen to a playback of Wonderful.

Now, what happened after reel 87? Because the next reel picks up with Brian working on Surf's Up, and no mention of the group is made in the next few reels. Then Brian puts his coat on and leaves at reel 90.

From that evidence, I don't think you can totally rule out a point in time that day/night when a discussion on Surf's Up may have happened, because the group *was* there, and Brian worked on that track after it seems they left after Wonderful and Cabinessence were tracked. So the SU track was on the agenda for that period of time - a discussion could have happened.

And you also can't rule out the possibility that one of the earlier sessions, Wonderful or Cabinessence, may not have gone well.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Not saying Brian must go out of his way to apologize to them. Someone presented a hypothetical. If they felt bad and opened up to him about it, he ought to apologize. It's obvious there's some heart feelings between Mike and Brian, tho. About SMiLE? I'm sure that, like in '67, it's but strike nine or so on a long list of grievances and unaddressed feelings of rejection and resentment. But in all the times he's been asked, it's not unreasonable to wonder why Mike seems to show no hindsight, no empathy for everything he now knows his cousin was going through and how much Brian needed all the support he could get from everyone even after all these years. That says a lot about him as a person. Sure, he doesn't *owe* Brian an apology. But it'd be the mature, respectful thing to do. Even if you don't think he has anything to apologize for, it seems like the other remaining BBs and a good chunk of the fanbase does. Complying could only benefit Mike.

Mike says exactly what I think people should expect when people talk to him about Smile. He is not about to admit any culpability after 47 years and, in his mind, he probably thinks that if Brian was hurt by anything it is because Brian wasn`t strong enough at that point to deal with things healthy people could have dealt with which is true to a large extent.

It's his cousin. And he now has no excuse not to know all the complex, crippling issues Brian had to deal with on top of Mike's usual abrasiveness (perhaps increased from usual considering he probably felt completely rejected for being left out of the creative process yet again) A decent person ought to be a bit more reflective and empathetic when looking back. I hope Mike has apologized behind closed doors if not to the public for his part (however small) in Brian's breakdown.

Can you even manage not to insult Mike in a single post?

And for the love of God, can you please just pretend/assume Mike's apologized to Brian in private??

[Niko]

Not saying Brian must go out of his way to apologize to them. Someone presented a hypothetical. If they felt bad and opened up to him about it, he ought to apologize. It's obvious there's some heart feelings between Mike and Brian, tho. About SMiLE? I'm sure that, like in '67, it's but strike nine or so on a long list of grievances and unaddressed feelings of rejection and resentment. But in all the times he's been asked, it's not unreasonable to wonder why Mike seems to show no hindsight, no empathy for everything he now knows his cousin was going through and how much Brian needed all the support he could get from everyone even after all these years. That says a lot about him as a person. Sure, he doesn't *owe* Brian an apology. But it'd be the mature, respectful thing to do. Even if you don't think he has anything to apologize for, it seems like the other remaining BBs and a good chunk of the fanbase does. Complying could only benefit Mike.

Mike says exactly what I think people should expect when people talk to him about Smile. He is not about to admit any culpability after 47 years and, in his mind, he probably thinks that if Brian was hurt by anything it is because Brian wasn`t strong enough at that point to deal with things healthy people could have dealt with which is true to a large extent.

It's his cousin. And he now has no excuse not to know all the complex, crippling issues Brian had to deal with on top of Mike's usual abrasiveness (perhaps increased from usual considering he probably felt completely rejected for being left out of the creative process yet again) A decent person ought to be a bit more reflective and empathetic when looking back. I hope Mike has apologized behind closed doors if not to the public for his part (however small) in Brian's breakdown.

Can you even manage not to insult Mike in a single post?

And for the love of God, can you please just pretend/assume Mike's apologized to Brian in private??

Do you think Mike has apologized to Brian in private? I don't.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Re: The Cabinessence incident.

It's tough to say this knowing we'll probably never see/hear the footage, but an incident was captured on film by the CBS crew, and the session cryptically described in the filming notes describing the reels. Oppenheim references the session by song lyrics and vocals being recorded.

This stuff in yellow font I copied and saved from a discussion I got into online back in 2002, and you'll see the actual notes from Oppenheim plus how I tried to decipher them to fit an infamous "bad" session. Check it out.




BVs to "Wonderful" & "Cabin Essence" were cut at the same session, as reported by Jules Siegel (granted he didn't name the songs) but noted that "earlier in the evening  the film crew had covered a Beach Boys vocal session which had gone very badly. Now, at midnight, The Beach Boys had gone home...".  The footage notation makes it clear that the band were initially there and the titles of tracks worked on.


Just to back this up from AGD's post, this is the original film notation I'm re-posting, reels 84-90:


84
9. Let's work on microphone
boys around mike
Do wa


85 Brian at piano working out
Yodelledo
then group sings at mike


86 Group around mike Yodelledo
Playback Yodelledoo's control in b.g.
Inside control room Group & Engineer Da daum(?)
Go out into studio Brian eating cereal record da da da


Beach Boys


86

1. around mike Yodeladeeo pan to Piano
Brian walks out frame(?) to outside booth playback
walks to control board

2. Brian talking ?? (bad pa toheps) to engineer
3. dark 4/s listening to playback
Brian goes to ?? (sirke?!) eats, put on headphones
sing dine dine

Scratch

87
1. control board thru window track on(?)
dine dine
Let's go have some Zen accompaniment
2. Brian at piano from behind
plays chords


87
engineer thru glass to group in(?) b.g. record da da
group comes back into room & listens to da da da
let's go lets have some zen compliment

Brian at piano from behind accomp. to Surf's up
to hands to face CL around to x & back to CL


88 Brian eating
headphones listening to piano track
sings lead on(?) thru piano
1 more time
--> tone(?) & start again side view CL
-> start at 2nd verse hung velvet
misses the glass
pickup hung velvet stop at dove nested
have echo on me
pickup again at hung velvet


89 Overdubs
hung velvet lead on(?) ?? (jumoles?!?!) -- let's overdub
it
move to CR side (?).s. 11(?) more around behind
move around to face CL he gestures
he talks while voice go(?)

mono mix - Id like it softer
let's go to top is that cool

LS CL overdub
LS hung velvet out sync
LS thru control room
2nd shot n.g.(?)
needle
recorder pan to engineer back to recorder


90
--> playback engineers bg Wilson fig.
fade in(?)
kneels -- can have muted trumpet go bleep(?)
move to us(?) half of Jules
Brian coat on walks out


In the span of these reels, Brian is working on and showing them the "yodel" harmony parts to "Wonderful" which they sing as a group, then the focus seems to shift to "Cabinessence" with the "dine dine dine" backing vocal parts, and then perhaps back to "Wonderful" with the "da da da da" countermelody vocal part as heard on the box set version.

So that is hard to dispute. This is the group session in question, the one AGD is describing.

Then, mention is made of Brian doing Surf's Up, and one reel places Jules Seigel at the scene for further validation (and it was his article which for years was the main research source for this incident).

Before that, though, at reel 87 it seems like a break may have been called "Let's go have some Zen...", and just prior to that notation the group was definitely there in the studio to listen to a playback of Wonderful.

Now, what happened after reel 87? Because the next reel picks up with Brian working on Surf's Up, and no mention of the group is made in the next few reels. Then Brian puts his coat on and leaves at reel 90.

From that evidence, I don't think you can totally rule out a point in time that day/night when a discussion on Surf's Up may have happened, because the group *was* there, and Brian worked on that track after it seems they left after Wonderful and Cabinessence were tracked. So the SU track was on the agenda for that period of time - a discussion could have happened.

And you also can't rule out the possibility that one of the earlier sessions, Wonderful or Cabinessence, may not have gone well.

So, you have proven that Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys spent time in a recording studio!

Congrats!

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Not saying Brian must go out of his way to apologize to them. Someone presented a hypothetical. If they felt bad and opened up to him about it, he ought to apologize. It's obvious there's some heart feelings between Mike and Brian, tho. About SMiLE? I'm sure that, like in '67, it's but strike nine or so on a long list of grievances and unaddressed feelings of rejection and resentment. But in all the times he's been asked, it's not unreasonable to wonder why Mike seems to show no hindsight, no empathy for everything he now knows his cousin was going through and how much Brian needed all the support he could get from everyone even after all these years. That says a lot about him as a person. Sure, he doesn't *owe* Brian an apology. But it'd be the mature, respectful thing to do. Even if you don't think he has anything to apologize for, it seems like the other remaining BBs and a good chunk of the fanbase does. Complying could only benefit Mike.

Mike says exactly what I think people should expect when people talk to him about Smile. He is not about to admit any culpability after 47 years and, in his mind, he probably thinks that if Brian was hurt by anything it is because Brian wasn`t strong enough at that point to deal with things healthy people could have dealt with which is true to a large extent.

It's his cousin. And he now has no excuse not to know all the complex, crippling issues Brian had to deal with on top of Mike's usual abrasiveness (perhaps increased from usual considering he probably felt completely rejected for being left out of the creative process yet again) A decent person ought to be a bit more reflective and empathetic when looking back. I hope Mike has apologized behind closed doors if not to the public for his part (however small) in Brian's breakdown.

Can you even manage not to insult Mike in a single post?

And for the love of God, can you please just pretend/assume Mike's apologized to Brian in private??

Do you think Mike has apologized to Brian in private? I don't.

I don't know, but in general, with families, such things as verbal apologies are unfortunately not always common.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Not saying Brian must go out of his way to apologize to them. Someone presented a hypothetical. If they felt bad and opened up to him about it, he ought to apologize. It's obvious there's some heart feelings between Mike and Brian, tho. About SMiLE? I'm sure that, like in '67, it's but strike nine or so on a long list of grievances and unaddressed feelings of rejection and resentment. But in all the times he's been asked, it's not unreasonable to wonder why Mike seems to show no hindsight, no empathy for everything he now knows his cousin was going through and how much Brian needed all the support he could get from everyone even after all these years. That says a lot about him as a person. Sure, he doesn't *owe* Brian an apology. But it'd be the mature, respectful thing to do. Even if you don't think he has anything to apologize for, it seems like the other remaining BBs and a good chunk of the fanbase does. Complying could only benefit Mike.

Mike says exactly what I think people should expect when people talk to him about Smile. He is not about to admit any culpability after 47 years and, in his mind, he probably thinks that if Brian was hurt by anything it is because Brian wasn`t strong enough at that point to deal with things healthy people could have dealt with which is true to a large extent.

It's his cousin. And he now has no excuse not to know all the complex, crippling issues Brian had to deal with on top of Mike's usual abrasiveness (perhaps increased from usual considering he probably felt completely rejected for being left out of the creative process yet again) A decent person ought to be a bit more reflective and empathetic when looking back. I hope Mike has apologized behind closed doors if not to the public for his part (however small) in Brian's breakdown.

Can you even manage not to insult Mike in a single post?

And for the love of God, can you please just pretend/assume Mike's apologized to Brian in private??

Do you think Mike has apologized to Brian in private? I don't.

^This.

[guitarfool2002]

So, you have proven that Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys spent time in a recording studio!

Congrats!

Or why don't you try adding something substantial or at least informational or interesting to the board rather than stirring up the sh*t and reacting rather than contributing to these discussions? All you do is react to provoke more reactions, and that schtick is      worn out.

The whole purpose of that discussion a decade ago eventually turned into casting some doubt on the theory that there had been anything major in the way of a fight happening that night, surely not to the level of what some had written suggesting a Mike Love-led blowup that CBS filmed. In other words, to bust a myth that Mike had created a showdown over the music in front of CBS' cameras, and that became less likely than many thought it was before this kind of information via the reels and other stuff.

EDIT: Removed what was inappropriate for the board. My bad.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Re: The Cabinessence incident.

It's tough to say this knowing we'll probably never see/hear the footage, but an incident was captured on film by the CBS crew, and the session cryptically described in the filming notes describing the reels. Oppenheim references the session by song lyrics and vocals being recorded.

This stuff in yellow font I copied and saved from a discussion I got into online back in 2002, and you'll see the actual notes from Oppenheim plus how I tried to decipher them to fit an infamous "bad" session. Check it out.




BVs to "Wonderful" & "Cabin Essence" were cut at the same session, as reported by Jules Siegel (granted he didn't name the songs) but noted that "earlier in the evening  the film crew had covered a Beach Boys vocal session which had gone very badly. Now, at midnight, The Beach Boys had gone home...".  The footage notation makes it clear that the band were initially there and the titles of tracks worked on.


Just to back this up from AGD's post, this is the original film notation I'm re-posting, reels 84-90:


84
9. Let's work on microphone
boys around mike
Do wa


85 Brian at piano working out
Yodelledo
then group sings at mike


86 Group around mike Yodelledo
Playback Yodelledoo's control in b.g.
Inside control room Group & Engineer Da daum(?)
Go out into studio Brian eating cereal record da da da


Beach Boys


86

1. around mike Yodeladeeo pan to Piano
Brian walks out frame(?) to outside booth playback
walks to control board

2. Brian talking ?? (bad pa toheps) to engineer
3. dark 4/s listening to playback
Brian goes to ?? (sirke?!) eats, put on headphones
sing dine dine

Scratch

87
1. control board thru window track on(?)
dine dine
Let's go have some Zen accompaniment
2. Brian at piano from behind
plays chords


87
engineer thru glass to group in(?) b.g. record da da
group comes back into room & listens to da da da
let's go lets have some zen compliment

Brian at piano from behind accomp. to Surf's up
to hands to face CL around to x & back to CL


88 Brian eating
headphones listening to piano track
sings lead on(?) thru piano
1 more time
--> tone(?) & start again side view CL
-> start at 2nd verse hung velvet
misses the glass
pickup hung velvet stop at dove nested
have echo on me
pickup again at hung velvet


89 Overdubs
hung velvet lead on(?) ?? (jumoles?!?!) -- let's overdub
it
move to CR side (?).s. 11(?) more around behind
move around to face CL he gestures
he talks while voice go(?)

mono mix - Id like it softer
let's go to top is that cool

LS CL overdub
LS hung velvet out sync
LS thru control room
2nd shot n.g.(?)
needle
recorder pan to engineer back to recorder


90
--> playback engineers bg Wilson fig.
fade in(?)
kneels -- can have muted trumpet go bleep(?)
move to us(?) half of Jules
Brian coat on walks out


In the span of these reels, Brian is working on and showing them the "yodel" harmony parts to "Wonderful" which they sing as a group, then the focus seems to shift to "Cabinessence" with the "dine dine dine" backing vocal parts, and then perhaps back to "Wonderful" with the "da da da da" countermelody vocal part as heard on the box set version.

So that is hard to dispute. This is the group session in question, the one AGD is describing.

Then, mention is made of Brian doing Surf's Up, and one reel places Jules Seigel at the scene for further validation (and it was his article which for years was the main research source for this incident).

Before that, though, at reel 87 it seems like a break may have been called "Let's go have some Zen...", and just prior to that notation the group was definitely there in the studio to listen to a playback of Wonderful.

Now, what happened after reel 87? Because the next reel picks up with Brian working on Surf's Up, and no mention of the group is made in the next few reels. Then Brian puts his coat on and leaves at reel 90.

From that evidence, I don't think you can totally rule out a point in time that day/night when a discussion on Surf's Up may have happened, because the group *was* there, and Brian worked on that track after it seems they left after Wonderful and Cabinessence were tracked. So the SU track was on the agenda for that period of time - a discussion could have happened.

And you also can't rule out the possibility that one of the earlier sessions, Wonderful or Cabinessence, may not have gone well.

So, you have proven that Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys spent time in a recording studio!

Congrats!

I think at the very least it's clear that VDP, Brian and Mike all wanted to be a big decider in the creative direction of this album. Mike wanted to be lyricist, VDP wanted one thing, Brian another... It just wasn't a project working in a healthy, motivated environment. Brian had no clear idea what he was doing. Mike made his dissatisfaction heard in a very aggressive way, VDP had no respect for Mike as a creative talent...it wasn't a united front.

Were any other non-H&V/VT/CCW vocals recorded after the CE & Jules Siegel Incidents? Because that would explain a lot. In that perhaps the band really was that hostile to it that VDP quit for awhile after 12/66, and work began solely towards the single. H&V and VT are just about the only things worked on besides various off shoots and distractions. VDP comes back, sees the project is going nowhere, is offered a better deal and takes it.

Brian had, perhaps, hoped to finish the single and release it to prove to the unsupportive guys the music had potential commercially and critically. He couldn't settle on a mix for either until well after the album was shelved. And the album was finally shelved when it was clear VDP wasn't coming back and Brian couldn't finish it without his continued help. All the main tracks were either unfinished, undeveloped or scrapped (The Elements Suite.)

This is speculation based on what I know of the sessions. Work effectively stopped on all non-single potential songs after 12/66, and unless I recall incorrectly, vocal sessions as well. That seems significant to me. If both sessions of vocals went badly by all counts, and the album then took backseat to the single it seems the least we could say is Brian was doubting these new songs and/or didn't want to deal with the band and their crap. One might be so bold as to say any clear idea of what this album was going to be was dead after these infamous sessions. Something big went down whether it was Chapter 7 of the Great Gatsby style (epic rejection, brutal character assassination) or A Separate Peace (long standing jealousy and resentment finally coming out) I think we can assume Mike stepped on one of or both VDP and Brian's toes a bit too hard, just one too many times. Did this single handedly kill SMiLE. No, but it sure as hell killed the momentum and any chance at a determined, united effort between the collaborators themselves, and Brian's with his band.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

So, you have proven that Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys spent time in a recording studio!

Congrats!

Or why don't you try adding something substantial or at least informational or interesting to the board rather than stirring up the sh*t and reacting rather than contributing to these discussions? All you do is react to provoke more reactions, and that schtick is      worn out.

The whole purpose of that discussion a decade ago eventually turned into casting some doubt on the theory that there had been anything major in the way of a fight happening that night, surely not to the level of what some had written suggesting a Mike Love-led blowup that CBS filmed. In other words, to bust a myth that Mike had created a showdown over the music in front of CBS' cameras, and that became less likely than many thought it was before this kind of information via the reels and other stuff.

EDIT: Removed what was inappropriate for the board. My bad.

^Thank you. Seriously, I'm glad someone else said it as well.

[CenturyDeprived]

Not saying Brian must go out of his way to apologize to them. Someone presented a hypothetical. If they felt bad and opened up to him about it, he ought to apologize. It's obvious there's some heart feelings between Mike and Brian, tho. About SMiLE? I'm sure that, like in '67, it's but strike nine or so on a long list of grievances and unaddressed feelings of rejection and resentment. But in all the times he's been asked, it's not unreasonable to wonder why Mike seems to show no hindsight, no empathy for everything he now knows his cousin was going through and how much Brian needed all the support he could get from everyone even after all these years. That says a lot about him as a person. Sure, he doesn't *owe* Brian an apology. But it'd be the mature, respectful thing to do. Even if you don't think he has anything to apologize for, it seems like the other remaining BBs and a good chunk of the fanbase does. Complying could only benefit Mike.

Mike says exactly what I think people should expect when people talk to him about Smile. He is not about to admit any culpability after 47 years and, in his mind, he probably thinks that if Brian was hurt by anything it is because Brian wasn`t strong enough at that point to deal with things healthy people could have dealt with which is true to a large extent.

Nicko, you've just hit upon something that I wholeheartedly agree with.

I think that Mike, particularly at the time, had this view of Brian (frankly to a certain extent, I think he still does). It's the type of view where a person (who thinks they themselves are "tough" and "normal") that sees an emotionally fragile person's actions (or reactions to other people) as being "not strong enough".
 
And while I can't ascribe full blame to Mike for being this way/having this view - I'll admit that Mike was a then 25-year old rock star who, despite having grown up with Brian, wasn't exactly privy to knowing the best + healthiest ways of dealing with emotionally fragile people, and it was still the stone age of fully grasping certain elements of psychology- it nonetheless was very unfortunate that he probably saw his cousin in this "Brian just isn't strong enough" light, because Brian really, really, truly needed to be treated with kid gloves about certain matters.

IMO, Mike's thinking about Brian (and not fully 100% grasping how someone else can take things in a deeply wrong way) shares some common traits with Murry's line of thinking that his sons had been "raised like girls".  

Some people can "take" a certain level of questioning, a certain negative/sarcastic tone of voice, etc, and some people can't take it, or can't be artistically fruitful in such an environment. Some people (like Brian) can take only so much of it before it becomes more than just a negligible, annoying "nuisance", particularly when in a situation that had many other unrelated stressors for him to contend with.

[CenturyDeprived]

I can't answer because I don't know anyway that Mike hurt Brian's feelings. Refresh my memory please. I don't think he should apologize for someone's assumptions. Should he apologize because someone didn't think they liked him?

Al and Bruce have said they were humiliated being required to lay on the floor and sing and make animal noises. Should they apologize for being humiliated?

I'm trying to understand: are you of the opinion that Brian and VDP did not feel deeply hurt by Mike's words and the ways those words were expressed?  I'd say it's pretty much on record at this point.

And I'm NOT speaking of your opinions on whether or not those hurt feelings were "justified", or whether or not Mike had the "right" to say the things he said, in the manner/tone of his choosing. Those opinions are irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Al and Bruce clearly have much thicker skin compared to Brian. In the hypothetical scenario that either of them had deeply hurt feelings due to BW's actions or words, then I'd say that BW apologizing, saying that he didn't' mean to hurt their feelings, would absolutely be the right thing to do.  

I have no idea, why do you think Mike hurt their feelings. Maybe VDP's feelings were hurt but I don't think requires an apology for asking a lyricist to explain a lyric.

I think we are just not going to agree. I don't think Brian got his feeling hurt by the Boys, he told them what to do and they did it. On the other hand I think he and VDP had issues with each other and they may have hurt each others feelings, not even sure of that. If you think that Brian's hurt feelings by anyone were a factor in the failure of SMiLE I think that is wrong. I think it is pretty clear that Brian had his problems with the material itself and in particular the lyrics and he did just what he wanted to do which was scrap and modify and new. I don't think you owe  someone an apology for them getting their way.

Cam - Here's a question I pose to you: assume for one moment, the hypothetical possibility that perhaps you are mistaken about Brian not being hurt by Mike's words/actions/tone of voice/sarcastic attitude, etc.

Let's just talk strictly in a hypothetical situation here, where perhaps today we find a 1967 diary where Brian stated that he was deeply hurt feelings by Mike for saying certain things, and in particular due to the manner in which they were said.

Under those hypothetical circumstances (where we no longer have to argue/discuss whether or not Brian was actually hurt emotionally by Mike - where it is established as a fact stated by the Brian at the time)... at that point, do you still think that Mike has no reason to apologize or express an ounce of regret to Brian? I'm not saying that Mike should have said "I'm sorry that I ever questioned anything you ever did from now to eternity", but more of a grasping of the concept that (Mike) is legitimately sorry if there were hurt feelings as a result of his questions, due to how Brian "took in" Mike's words.

Is that a situation, considering all the hypotheticals I've descried above, that you can get behind?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I can't answer because I don't know anyway that Mike hurt Brian's feelings. Refresh my memory please. I don't think he should apologize for someone's assumptions. Should he apologize because someone didn't think they liked him?

Al and Bruce have said they were humiliated being required to lay on the floor and sing and make animal noises. Should they apologize for being humiliated?

I'm trying to understand: are you of the opinion that Brian and VDP did not feel deeply hurt by Mike's words and the ways those words were expressed?  I'd say it's pretty much on record at this point.

And I'm NOT speaking of your opinions on whether or not those hurt feelings were "justified", or whether or not Mike had the "right" to say the things he said, in the manner/tone of his choosing. Those opinions are irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Al and Bruce clearly have much thicker skin compared to Brian. In the hypothetical scenario that either of them had deeply hurt feelings due to BW's actions or words, then I'd say that BW apologizing, saying that he didn't' mean to hurt their feelings, would absolutely be the right thing to do.  

I have no idea, why do you think Mike hurt their feelings. Maybe VDP's feelings were hurt but I don't think requires an apology for asking a lyricist to explain a lyric.

I think we are just not going to agree. I don't think Brian got his feeling hurt by the Boys, he told them what to do and they did it. On the other hand I think he and VDP had issues with each other and they may have hurt each others feelings, not even sure of that. If you think that Brian's hurt feelings by anyone were a factor in the failure of SMiLE I think that is wrong. I think it is pretty clear that Brian had his problems with the material itself and in particular the lyrics and he did just what he wanted to do which was scrap and modify and new. I don't think you owe  someone an apology for them getting their way.

Cam - Here's a question I pose to you: assume for one moment, the hypothetical possibility that perhaps you are mistaken about Brian not being hurt by Mike's words/actions/tone of voice/sarcastic attitude, etc.

Let's just talk strictly in a hypothetical situation here, where perhaps today we find a 1967 diary where Brian stated that he was deeply hurt feelings by Mike for saying certain things, and in particular due to the manner in which they were said.

Under those hypothetical circumstances (where we no longer have to argue/discuss whether or not Brian was actually hurt emotionally by Mike - where it is established as a fact stated by the Brian at the time)... at that point, do you still think that Mike has no reason to apologize or express an ounce of regret to Brian? I'm not saying that Mike should have said "I'm sorry that I ever questioned anything you ever did from now to eternity", but more of a grasping of the concept that there could have been (at the very least) a communication gap that Mike was partially culpable for, and that he (Mike) is legitimately sorry if there were hurt feelings as a result.

Is that a situation, considering all the hypotheticals I've descried above, that you can get behind?

You're asking a member of the Mike Love circle-jerk parade to admit their icon is not completely perfect in every conceivable way. Never gonna happen.

[CenturyDeprived]

No. In that instance, Brian ought to appologize for hurting their feelings.

This is not how human beings behave though is it. We all as human beings unintentionally hurt people`s feelings from time to time but nobody looks back across their whole life and apologizes for every mistake that they have made over the past 50 years.

Some human beings absolutely behave that way - particularly if the issue at hand is something that is/was probably a big deal in the other person's life. Maybe Mike Love doesn't, but many other people do.

I have a friend who recently, totally out-of-the-blue, got in touch with me to personally apologize for having acted in a certain way years before.  It was totally unexpected (and actually pretty unnecessary in my eyes), but I nonetheless truly deeply appreciated the thought.

I've myself made apologies to people (especially those I care about) if there's any kind of long-simmering issue where there might be resentment bubbling under the surface. It doesn't mean that I'm saying "I was a total jerk and I'm sorry". It can simply be a thing where I would express regret if I did/say anything to hurt their feelings regarding a certain topic. As simple and as nondescript an apology as that can be a BIG BIG BIG deal to some people.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

So, you have proven that Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys spent time in a recording studio!

Congrats!

Or why don't you try adding something substantial or at least informational or interesting to the board rather than stirring up the sh*t and reacting rather than contributing to these discussions? All you do is react to provoke more reactions, and that schtick is      worn out.

The whole purpose of that discussion a decade ago eventually turned into casting some doubt on the theory that there had been anything major in the way of a fight happening that night, surely not to the level of what some had written suggesting a Mike Love-led blowup that CBS filmed. In other words, to bust a myth that Mike had created a showdown over the music in front of CBS' cameras, and that became less likely than many thought it was before this kind of information via the reels and other stuff.

EDIT: Removed what was inappropriate for the board. My bad.

^Thank you. Seriously, I'm glad someone else said it as well.

Keeping you guy's personally biased speculations in check IS contributing something useful to this board....

This Mike/SMILE thing is like a creature that is always hungry and can't ever feel full, so it keeps eating and eating and eating and then still wanting more food. A creature that can never ever be sated....

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I can't answer because I don't know anyway that Mike hurt Brian's feelings. Refresh my memory please. I don't think he should apologize for someone's assumptions. Should he apologize because someone didn't think they liked him?

Al and Bruce have said they were humiliated being required to lay on the floor and sing and make animal noises. Should they apologize for being humiliated?

I'm trying to understand: are you of the opinion that Brian and VDP did not feel deeply hurt by Mike's words and the ways those words were expressed?  I'd say it's pretty much on record at this point.

And I'm NOT speaking of your opinions on whether or not those hurt feelings were "justified", or whether or not Mike had the "right" to say the things he said, in the manner/tone of his choosing. Those opinions are irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Al and Bruce clearly have much thicker skin compared to Brian. In the hypothetical scenario that either of them had deeply hurt feelings due to BW's actions or words, then I'd say that BW apologizing, saying that he didn't' mean to hurt their feelings, would absolutely be the right thing to do.  

I have no idea, why do you think Mike hurt their feelings. Maybe VDP's feelings were hurt but I don't think requires an apology for asking a lyricist to explain a lyric.

I think we are just not going to agree. I don't think Brian got his feeling hurt by the Boys, he told them what to do and they did it. On the other hand I think he and VDP had issues with each other and they may have hurt each others feelings, not even sure of that. If you think that Brian's hurt feelings by anyone were a factor in the failure of SMiLE I think that is wrong. I think it is pretty clear that Brian had his problems with the material itself and in particular the lyrics and he did just what he wanted to do which was scrap and modify and new. I don't think you owe  someone an apology for them getting their way.

Cam - Here's a question I pose to you: assume for one moment, the hypothetical possibility that perhaps you are mistaken about Brian not being hurt by Mike's words/actions/tone of voice/sarcastic attitude, etc.

Let's just talk strictly in a hypothetical situation here, where perhaps today we find a 1967 diary where Brian stated that he was deeply hurt feelings by Mike for saying certain things, and in particular due to the manner in which they were said.

Under those hypothetical circumstances (where we no longer have to argue/discuss whether or not Brian was actually hurt emotionally by Mike - where it is established as a fact stated by the Brian at the time)... at that point, do you still think that Mike has no reason to apologize or express an ounce of regret to Brian? I'm not saying that Mike should have said "I'm sorry that I ever questioned anything you ever did from now to eternity", but more of a grasping of the concept that there could have been (at the very least) a communication gap that Mike was partially culpable for, and that he (Mike) is legitimately sorry if there were hurt feelings as a result.

Is that a situation, considering all the hypotheticals I've descried above, that you can get behind?

You're asking a member of the Mike Love circle-jerk parade to admit their icon is not completely perfect in every conceivable way. Never gonna happen.

You know what man, NO ONE here has stooped to the level of insults you have. When you're not insulting Mike, you're insulting those who simply choose to question your speculations and theories. Can you please try and get it in check? You pretend that you want to intelligently discuss the issue, yet you can't seem to handle a single aspect of so called "intelligent" discussion.....