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Author Topic: Durrie Parks Smile acetates up for sale for $10,000  (Read 50935 times)
Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #325 on: March 06, 2013, 05:27:58 PM »

On the box as they are recording the “Part II” variations towards  the end there’s brief discussion of the next part, but then that part never comes. Why is that? Did they never record it? And if so…why? Why get so close to completion then quit? And that question comes up a lot when talking about Smile. The tape always ends just when there seems to be something important coming up (see also: instructions to players about talking between verses in Dada).

Yes! Excellent point. It's another thing that makes the whole experience frustrating. I'm not sure what part you are talking about in regards to H&V though. Is it that track on Sessions titled "Heroes and Villains Part 2" where he plays this brief Gershwin-esque piano section and then decides that he's going to have the guys sing it acapella and they rehearse it for a bit and are really happy with it and then nothing? If that is the part you are referring to, I find it strange that it was never recorded either since it was supposed to be the closer for Gee.

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Why did he re-record the H&V fade when the re-record sounds just like the damn original (aside from Carl's scat)?

I don't know but I do like that track - especially when Brian chews out Carl.
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #326 on: March 06, 2013, 05:28:26 PM »

I think the 2 side H&V single's biggest problem is so many years of thinking about it as single track made in two parts. And then the confusion came with trying to explain a single track having so many part 2s and fades etc.. Jmo. Follow the master numbers and all will become clear. Clearer. The evidence for a 2 sided single has been there all the time. Also as I've pointed out before, all of the identified tracks recorded for the H&V Part II master #57045  for "side 2" are revised quotes of non-H&V album tracks from the rest of the album tracks. Think about it. Interesting innit.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 05:32:20 PM by Cam Mott » Logged

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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #327 on: March 06, 2013, 05:30:09 PM »

Also, I do think we might be overestimating Brian and Van Dyke in their capacity to remember what their plans were for Smile in 1966/67.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #328 on: March 06, 2013, 05:44:49 PM »

Also as I've pointed out before, all of the identified tracks recorded for the H&V Part II master #57045  for "side 2" are revised quotes of non-H&V album tracks from the rest of the album tracks. Think about it. Interesting innit.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this.
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #329 on: March 06, 2013, 06:17:04 PM »

They reference SMiLE album tracks: DYLW, TE, YAMS......uh......is that it for so far identified H&V Part II master #57045 tracks?
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« Reply #330 on: March 06, 2013, 08:23:16 PM »



Why did he re-record the H&V fade when the re-record sounds just like the damn original (aside from Carl's scat)?



Maybe it was just a quick solution - need a fade to the b side. Just reconfigure the fade to the a side in a subtly different way. So A side has false barnyard fade and b side has the Carl scat version.


What about the verse remake?

Why is he starting over?

And then why does he go back and use the original verse for the finished single?

On the track "Barbershop Session" - the first attempt included used the razzle dazzle tape explosion effect....is this yet another attempt of squeezing the effect into the song somewhere?

Where's the version of the piano "tag to part one" with the handclap overdubs?

Pickup to third verse....where does it go?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 08:32:47 PM by Bubba Ho-Tep » Logged
Ron
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« Reply #331 on: March 06, 2013, 09:59:45 PM »

I love that the acetates have reopened the H&V sequencing debate.

Its fun to imagine the song going a thousand different ways. Cool Guy

I'm not as deep into it as most fans are, so I can kind of give an outside perspective.  I've screwed around and recorded a few songs before, and then years later went back and looked at the tracks.  What I found was.... I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT THE HELL I WAS DOING.

So things like us finding tapes with weird labels, and 'part 1' and 'part II' but that doesn't make sense, and why the hell did this fade? Etc., in my opinion, is just a byproduct of the recording process.  Most of it obviously wasn't concrete anyways, all of the great mysteries we've tried to figure out about smile were never designed as great mysteries, they were designed as minor oversights or discrepancies, or they wrote something down wrong, or jotted down a small note, or misspelled something.  Years later we can't make any sense of it and think it's something that has an answer, when it doesn't. 
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Dunderhead
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« Reply #332 on: March 07, 2013, 12:36:57 AM »

The following sessions use master number 57045:

1. "Part Two"/Single Chorus; February 27th
2. "Fade" rerecord with Carl scatting; February 28th
3. "Verse" remake; March 1st
4. "Organ Waltz"/"Intro"; March 1st
5. "Part II Insert"; March 2nd

Brian assembled the Cantina version on February 10th and still didn't appear to be satisfied with the song. He recorded the "Prelude To Fade" on February 15th and the "Part 2/3/4"s on February 20th/21st using master #57020. Between those dates and February 27th he held one or two "edit" sessions to perhaps tweak the Cantina version a little bit using the newly recorded material.

The fact that after this, over a period of four consecutive days Brian rerecorded the verse and fade using Master #57045, suggests he was trying to make a fresh start on the song and was scrapping everything else he had done to rerecord it entirely from scratch. These were the last Heroes sessions Brian held until the Smiley version sessions in June, he never held any vocal or edit sessions afterwards to complete the #57045 version of the song, and didn't return to the studio again to work on Smile material until April 4th.

I really don't get the impression the new master number meant that Brian was seriously at work on a two-sided version of the song. "Part II" seems only to refer to the bicycle rider section which was to be used as the chorus of the new version.
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« Reply #333 on: March 07, 2013, 01:39:18 AM »

I don't have my notes so excuse me if i mess up.
In some ways i think the idea of 57045 could well be true but on the other hand wasn't Heroes assigned several master numbers over the course of it's life.
may 66 no. 55999
oct and dec no. 56727
great shape has its own master no. 56738
dec 19 no.57020 - this session with violinists is missing but could be key to understanding the next stage of transitions imo. (how to get to bag of tricks etc.part 3 etc.)
jan no. 57045
jan experiment no. 57074
and so on
let's not forget that other songs such as Cabin Essence had different master numbers assigned to the different sections but ended up in the same song.
Anyway , i do believe that when BW went into the studio he had a definite plan,party reels aside. Does anyone really think he'd go into Columbia and noodle around for 4 hours and then decide lets take that bit from Worms. Ok this is Heroes and Villains part 2. No i think he did the writing and noodling at home and came in to record what he'd already worked out. Maybe it changed during the recording process. Then he got home, got wasted and decided he didn't like it and sat down at the piano to begin again. The only accurate description i have heard by Brian is that he went on a 6 month bummer over Heroes - that's october to march 67 when he just couldn't deal with it anymore and after starting all over again (verse re-record holy cow) he just put it to one side.
That verse re-record is desperate. Brian sounds in charge and coherent but after all those months to go back and redo the only piece he'd been happy with all that time (in B flat to spin up to C sharp!!!) well that freaks me out. It's not like he needed it to end differently for the transition to the next piece of music.
Finally in the let's not forget department - master numbers could easily have been assigned in error to the wrong piece of music.
My brain hurts.

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« Reply #334 on: March 07, 2013, 06:08:16 AM »

It's starting to become more and more clear why Brian couldn't complete smile. Everything was all over the place  LOL
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #335 on: March 07, 2013, 06:18:39 AM »

Hold on a second. Cam was giving me the impression that the Master #57045 was given a title: "Heroes and Villains Part II." Is this not true? And if it is not, and it is true that the track had several master numbers and that pieces of even an obviously complete track like Cabinessence had its own sections with their own master numbers, then I think this really puts the kibosh on the whole Side A/Side B theory. I should have trusted my gut instinct from listening to the sessions.
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Bubba Ho-Tep
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« Reply #336 on: March 07, 2013, 07:22:36 AM »

This post from Alan Boyd in a previous thread is very informative:

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For what it's worth, there is one tape box with a little note on it that says "Heroes and Villains Side Two."  That would be the rendition of the theme described on that box as "HEROES BRIDGE WITH SPOOKY LOW END STRINGS AND PERCUSSION."  This turned out to be the variation on the theme that was later used as the backing track for the chorus of the single version (but with the "spooky low end strings" mixed out in favor of droning low notes from what I can only assume is Brian's Baldwin organ).  I can't say for sure, however, when that "Side Two" note was written on the box, so....

As far as "Heroes and Villains" PART Two is concerned, the tape box containing the "Bicycle Rider" theme with Brian's lead vocal, is labeled "HEROES PART TWO."  Judging from some fragmentary mix outtakes for the song's opening verses - which seem to go into a snippet of that harpsichord-based "Bicycle Rider" theme - I'm guessing that "Part Two" in that case refers to sections within an alternate complete edit of the song, rather than an actual separate side two.  Perhaps an early version of the song may have had that "Bicycle Rider" section as a chorus in the same way the single version had a variation of that theme as its chorus.  Perhaps not...  Too bad the multitrack master from which that mix derived is missing.

The various vocal treatments that have long been regarded as the foundation for a Side Two of HEROES.... well.... they also have a "PART TWO" note on the tape box, as well as audio slates on the tape itself.  But that may just be referring to the order in which they were recording sections that day (2/20/67).  On the other hand, there doesn't appear to be a PART ONE from that particular session.  In this case, "Part Two" refers to the "Gee" vocal leading into a tack piano/ vocal variation ("Ahh ooom diddy wadda, heroes and villains")  "Part Three" on this tape is the next variation of the vocal thing ("heroes, the heroes, the heroes and a villains") leading into a suspenseful piano chord that leads to the growling Swedish Frog" stuff.... then another variation, "Part Four" or "Version Four" refers to the acapella "Dit Dit Dit Heroes and Villains" with the low doom-doom-doom vocals on the bottom....   The various sections appear on the 8 track tape in the same order as they were later presented on CD with the slates and false starts cleaned up and taken out.

*whew*

I would tend to be careful about assuming how sections like this were intended to be put together, especially having found an original edited track mix for CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN that's assembled very differently than the bootlegs had been for so many years.  The old versions had simply put the sections together in the same order as found on the original multitrack session tape.

FYI - That piece they call "Barnshine" or "False Barnyard" was originally recorded as part two of SUNSHINE, and there is a mono rough mix in the vaults with that section coming up right after the OLD MASTER PAINTER/SUNSHINE mixdown with Dennis' lead.  It has that bit of a SUNSHINE vocal from Brian (not Mike) buried way deep in there.  This appears to be a rough mix made in 1968 at Wally Heider while they were working out what was going to be on "Stack O Tracks."  Too bad the multitrack master from which that mix derived is missing.

That coda was not added to the alternate version of that first appeared on the SMILEY SMILE/WILD HONEY two-fer.  That mix was complete in a tape box labeled "Heros [sic] and Villains as of 2/10/67 master" Protection Copy.  I can't be certain that is a copy of the missing master mix dated 1/31/67, or a protection copy of another assembly/mixdown made after that.  The notes are not definitive.

And yes, that "Barnshine" bit was re-recorded on 2/28 with plucked strings and Carl attempting a vocal part as they were tracking it.  It was labeled here as HEROES AND VILLAINS FADE OUT.

So.... Ummm.  Hmmm.

Alan
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #337 on: March 07, 2013, 07:28:57 AM »

It is. Brian did occasionally start a new master for an old title. Beginning in December Brian had settled down to master #57020 for the title H&V. In January he began a concurrent master #57045 for the title H&V Part II which was noted as "Side 2".

I forgot about c-man's new info about "verse" recording for H&V Part II master #57045. I'll have to bone up on the new info. However that still leaves the "Side 2" master as H&V Part II master #57045 and is a still another reworked reference of a SMiLE album track which presumably would be H&V master #57020. There is no reference to separate mastered title of H&V Part II [or any second title for H&V] on the existing album track info so H&V Part II master #57045 must have been for "side 2" of the single.
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« Reply #338 on: March 07, 2013, 02:48:50 PM »

A lot of the studio technicals are over my head but I have also wondered if H&V could have been a two-part song.

One of the things that impressed me when I first started listening to TSS is the "threads" that
weave in and out of different "songs" -- this modular quality of Brian's music is one of the most intriguing aspects of SMiLE.

Anyway you look/ listen to the all the different parts, the fact is the this has to be one of the most brilliant musical
endeavors in history.
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« Reply #339 on: March 07, 2013, 05:21:36 PM »

Brian Wilson: The Most Famous Hegelian
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Micha
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« Reply #340 on: March 07, 2013, 06:17:17 PM »

Why did he re-record the H&V fade when the re-record sounds just like the damn original (aside from Carl's scat)?



Maybe it was just a quick solution - need a fade to the b side. Just reconfigure the fade to the a side in a subtly different way. So A side has false barnyard fade and b side has the Carl scat version.

More than unlikely IMHO. At the same time Brian rerecorded the fade, he also rerecorded the verses. That would rather fit the story about Brian playing the song to a stranger from the street and then starting from scratch. Obviously, he used neither the new verses nor the new fade.
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« Reply #341 on: March 07, 2013, 06:18:11 PM »

He recorded the "Prelude To Fade" on February 15th and the "Part 2/3/4"s on February 20th/21st using master #57020. Between those dates and February 27th he held one or two "edit" sessions to perhaps tweak the Cantina version a little bit using the newly recorded material.

Oh, if only an edit turned up somewhere of the Cantina version that incorporates Prelude to Fade and these "Part/Side 2" sections from Feb. 20th and 21st. I would love to hear such a thing.
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« Reply #342 on: March 07, 2013, 06:25:50 PM »

Pickup to third verse....where does it go?

Before the third verse "My children were raised..." and after whatever, maybe Barnyard, maybe something else.
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« Reply #343 on: March 07, 2013, 06:44:13 PM »

Pickup to third verse....where does it go?

Before the third verse "My children were raised..." and after whatever, maybe Barnyard, maybe something else.

Probably before "My children were raised." In the Smile Sessions, in chronological order, the H&V piece that is recorded following "Pickup to the 3rd verse" is the "My children were raised" section.
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Dunderhead
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« Reply #344 on: March 07, 2013, 09:23:36 PM »

Brian Wilson: The Most Famous Hegelian Schlegelian
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Dunderhead
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« Reply #345 on: March 07, 2013, 10:05:18 PM »

Why did he re-record the H&V fade when the re-record sounds just like the damn original (aside from Carl's scat)?



Maybe it was just a quick solution - need a fade to the b side. Just reconfigure the fade to the a side in a subtly different way. So A side has false barnyard fade and b side has the Carl scat version.

More than unlikely IMHO. At the same time Brian rerecorded the fade, he also rerecorded the verses. That would rather fit the story about Brian playing the song to a stranger from the street and then starting from scratch. Obviously, he used neither the new verses nor the new fade.

I don't think I've heard this story, what's it's source? It seems to fit with the chronology pretty well. Maybe on February 24th/25th/26th Brian auditioned the cantina edit or a modified version of it incorporating "Prelude To Fade" for someone and was so disappointed with their reaction that he resolved to rerecord the entire song from scratch then and there beginning on the 27th.
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« Reply #346 on: March 07, 2013, 10:42:28 PM »

Why Schlegel?
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« Reply #347 on: March 08, 2013, 02:07:52 AM »

I wonder whether Brian junked the Cantina section quite soon after recording it. Marilyn said she only heard it once or something like that . The story of a stranger coming in and saying it wasn't as good as Good Vibrations leading to BW wiping the master there and then (according to legend) could explain why we are left with only the protection copy ??  Perhaps then he started up on all the part 2's (gee etc.) as a replacement. They would go well after the accapella verse which is where the earlier part 2 (cantina) was.
Master numbers aside, Brian's problem appears to have been where to go from the verses. Just how many part 2's can a song have unless of course there was a seperate Heroes and Villains Part 2. Was he so desperate to finish the all-important single that he ended up lifting parts from other songs to try and get the song to work ? Of course by doing so he effectively trashed a number of other songs - Worms,Old Master Painter,Vegatables (which is very similar to Heroes in many ways),Cabinessence etc. He worked on Heroes pretty much exclusively Jan/Feb 1967. Should've spent a couple of days getting the boys to do the lead vocals on Worms,Cabin,Surfs Up,Wonderful,Holidays, Child Is Father Of The Man etc. Ah the benefit of hindsight.
Often it's easy to speculate (in an informed fashion) where some pieces go by the keys or comments on session tapes but there are a few where perhaps missing sections are involved which means that even informed speculation is impossible. That part 3 from December for example. Perhaps we need the december 19th session to be able to fit that in. The chimes intro  doesn't seem to lead to anything and is in E major if i remember which is a slightly "off" transition to make in this context at least. Certainly doesn't move smoothly into the verse even with a brief pause.
Soul Made Beautiful/Mission Pak has also been problematic to me. It's some kind of link piece but from where to where? Is it in 2/4 or 6/4 ?  Sounds a bit like a c*ck a doodle doo / early rise kind of thing.
If only these acetates had turned up one finished but junked Heroes we might have some answers.
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« Reply #348 on: March 08, 2013, 04:29:56 AM »

Up until December 19th I imagine Brian at least thought he had a good handle on the song. It seems logical to assume that it was a fade sequence which was being recorded on that date given that's ostensibly the only thing that hadn't been recorded yet. It was on December 27th and December 28th, when he spent a total of 12 hours alone in the studio likely trying to edit what he had into something usable that I imagine he first started to realize he had gotten in over his head.
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« Reply #349 on: March 08, 2013, 06:19:29 AM »

I"ve misplaced it, but can somebody tell me....didn't Vosse mention a 2-sided single in the Fusion interview or am I remembering wrong?
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