Great instrument playing moments in BBs recordings

[rogerlancelot]

Organ solo Leaving This Town - In Concert album.

One of the most impressive Hammond solos I have ever heard, to be honest.

Yes! And the organ on "Let The Wind Blow" from same album. Does anybody know who performed these?

[AndrewHickey]

Organ solo Leaving This Town - In Concert album.

One of the most impressive Hammond solos I have ever heard, to be honest.

Yes! And the organ on "Let The Wind Blow" from same album. Does anybody know who performed these?

If I remember rightly, Billy Hinsche did the Leaving This Town solo -- I *think* you can even hear someone shouting "Billy Hinsche!" during it. No idea about Let The Wind Blow.

[Bill M]

I always thought the organ solo on Leaving this Town live was Carli Munoz. I could be wrong. Just doesn't seem like Billy's style to me. Regardless, it's quite good.

[AndrewHickey]

I always thought the organ solo on Leaving this Town live was Carli Munoz. I could be wrong. Just doesn't seem like Billy's style to me. Regardless, it's quite good.

I think you're right, thinking about it -- it does sound more like Munoz's playing. But I remember about ten or fifteen years ago on the old cabinessence.com message board, someone asked Billy about it and he said it was him... possibly he misremembered.

[Bill M]

I think it's Billy doing the keyboard solo on Help Me Rhonda on the live album, which is also quite good.

[SonicVolcano]

I always thought the organ solo on Leaving this Town live was Carli Munoz. I could be wrong. Just doesn't seem like Billy's style to me. Regardless, it's quite good.

There's even a website dedicated to this moment

http://willcmusic.com/carli-munoz-and-the-organ-solo-that-shook-the-earth/

[NHC]

Yes, Carl on the "Rhonda" 45 solo.
Contrary to popular belief, Carl played virtually ALL the guitar solos on Beach Boys records in the '60s.  Exceptions would be the instrumentals "Summer Means New Love" (Tommy Tedesco) and "Pet Sounds" (Billy Strange), and of course "Bluebirds" (Eddie Carter...probably also Eddie on "All I Want To Do", as the tone is pretty similar).  Right now I can't think of any other BBs guitar solos from the '60s that weren't Carl. 

Does this include all the instrumentals on Surfin' USA?  I always presumed they were Carl, and figured that was pretty good for a teen-ager, why couldn't I play Honkey Tonk and Miserlou like that myself, after all I was a teen-ager, too, but then later when the whole business about studio musicians and wrecking crews and the allegations that the band didn't really play anything in the studio from the beginning, blah, blah, blah, I began to wonder (and wanted to think "Hah! He wasn't that much better than me after all" - what a joke). Then when the stories began to be torn down by facts, I was back to what I always had believed in the 60's - that was Carl.  Correct?

[c-man]

Yes, Carl on the "Rhonda" 45 solo.
Contrary to popular belief, Carl played virtually ALL the guitar solos on Beach Boys records in the '60s.  Exceptions would be the instrumentals "Summer Means New Love" (Tommy Tedesco) and "Pet Sounds" (Billy Strange), and of course "Bluebirds" (Eddie Carter...probably also Eddie on "All I Want To Do", as the tone is pretty similar).  Right now I can't think of any other BBs guitar solos from the '60s that weren't Carl. 

Does this include all the instrumentals on Surfin' USA?  I always presumed they were Carl, and figured that was pretty good for a teen-ager, why couldn't I play Honkey Tonk and Miserlou like that myself, after all I was a teen-ager, too, but then later when the whole business about studio musicians and wrecking crews and the allegations that the band didn't really play anything in the studio from the beginning, blah, blah, blah, I began to wonder (and wanted to think "Hah! He wasn't that much better than me after all" - what a joke). Then when the stories began to be torn down by facts, I was back to what I always had believed in the 60's - that was Carl.  Correct?

Yes, correct:  Carl.

[c-man]

There's horns on both the A and B side of that though, right?

You're right, of course.

Also, the new york cats seem to be listed by name on the wikipedia for I'm A Believer. But they are not household names, so I guess anonymous New York musicians they are.

That's really weird, actually -- I was doing those credits from memory, but I'm pretty certain that Sandoval says in his book that there's no existing union documentation for those sessions (and I can't find my copy of Sandoval right now to check). The Monkees Sessionography website, which is usually pretty good, says "Carol Kaye played Fender bass on this track and possibly others from these New York sessions." (Nonsense, of course, but they're taking her word for it in the absence of other evidence) "Unfortunately, complete documentation for these sessions has not been located."

When I was looking into this stuff about 18 months ago, for the book I did on the Monkees' music, as best I could discover those sessions *were* genuinely anonymous. I wonder if some new documentation has turned up. Looks like Wikipedia has the same credits, now, for A Little Bit Me as well.

I recently contacted the NYC chapter of the AFM union, hoping they could find session contracts for the string overdub session on the BBs' "20/20" tunes (which were arranged/conducted by Van McCoy), but I was told "I checked with our recording department and their records do not go back that far" (unlike the L.A. branch, which has provided me with a TON of scans from their archive, for my research purposes).  Maybe the record company still has their copy on file, but in the Monkees' case, if they did, I would think that would be known by now.

[guitarfool2002]

There's horns on both the A and B side of that though, right?

You're right, of course.

Also, the new york cats seem to be listed by name on the wikipedia for I'm A Believer. But they are not household names, so I guess anonymous New York musicians they are.

That's really weird, actually -- I was doing those credits from memory, but I'm pretty certain that Sandoval says in his book that there's no existing union documentation for those sessions (and I can't find my copy of Sandoval right now to check). The Monkees Sessionography website, which is usually pretty good, says "Carol Kaye played Fender bass on this track and possibly others from these New York sessions." (Nonsense, of course, but they're taking her word for it in the absence of other evidence) "Unfortunately, complete documentation for these sessions has not been located."

When I was looking into this stuff about 18 months ago, for the book I did on the Monkees' music, as best I could discover those sessions *were* genuinely anonymous. I wonder if some new documentation has turned up. Looks like Wikipedia has the same credits, now, for A Little Bit Me as well.

One name which I've always suspected was involved in those Don Kirshner-led Monkees sessions, the "anonymous" ones, was guitarist Al Gorgoni. He was one of Kirshner's go-to guitarists, starting out not as first call for the "big" sessions but slogging it out playing demos for all of Kirshner's hired gun songwriters.

As happens, when those demos turned into hits, a guitarist like Al Gorgoni would be booked for the big session. So for years I wondered who was playing on Neil Diamond's classic 60's records like "Solitary Man" and basically all of that crop of hits, "Sugar Sugar", go down the list of Donny Kirshner's successful hit records in the 60's, and you'll see names like Al Gorgoni, Vinnie Bell, Hugh McCracken, etc.

It is almost neglectful how little attention is paid to the New York version of the Wrecking Crew...there just isn't much info posted about them, and they do largely remain anonymous.

*However*

The claim for I'm A Believer has gone pretty solidly to Al Gorgoni on guitar, and I had always suspected that group of East Coast, New York session players who played nearly all of those classic Neil Diamond singles would naturally be among those musicians hired to play when Kirshner recorded some of Diamond's songs for The Monkees.

And with Al Gorgoni, at least on I'm A Believer, that's the case. I don't know for sure but I'm betting tracks like "Little Bit Me", "Love To Love", etc were the same guys. Those records, especially "Little Bit Me" share that same "Cherry Cherry" groove and sheen, i think due to the musicians who played it.

Google Al's name, you'll get a great starting point on who these guys were in the new York scene and how many classic singles they played on.

[c-man]

Now that I'm getting a clearer picture of who played what on pre-66 stuff(the Beach Boys themselves QUITE often), I'd really like to know the instrumental credits for Smiley Smile thru Surf's Up. I know a there's a lot of beach boy involvement. A lot of Dragon. And, am I crazy, or is there more of the wrecking crew on that 67- 71 stuff, than on the 63-65 stuff they so often steal credit for? The rule of thumb seems to be pre-66 , it's mostly Beach Boys, Pet Sounds and Smile we know pretty well, but the stuff after Smile til' Surf's Up, I feel pretty clueless. Thank you Jon Stebbins, I had no idea that was Earl Palmer on It's About Time. I saw someone on Youtube saying "what a great Dennis drum track"! I hope they know he played on Don't Worry Baby, but I suspect that they don't, and it's just compensation for genuine Dennis parts like DWB being attributed to someone else, that someone would assume he plays on It's About Time. I get it. I'm all for comprehensive Beach Boy instrumental track reparations Now! But I want credit given where credit is due, not perpetual theft of credits. Whoah!

Smiley Smile was the BBs themselves on all instruments, except for Chuck Bergofer on some standup bass (not counting GV and H&V, of course).  Wild Honey was mostly the BBs, with Ron Brown doing some bass, plus horn & string players here or there.  Maybe Hal on drums for Darlin', but not sure.  For Friends, 20/20 and Sunflower, they reverted back to using hired guns for a lot of the instrumentation, but still did a fair amount themselves (such as on Do It Again).  The Surf's Up album was mostly the guys with Daryl.  In Carol Kaye's case though, I don't think she ever did a BBs session after SMiLE...her name certainly isn't on any of the post-SMiLE union contracts (but Ray Pohlman's sure is), and I think she said somewhere that she never did a session at Brian's Bellagio studio.  She DID say that the rhythm section on "I Was Made To Love Her" (cut at Heider's) was her and Hal (and I think she named the location as Western), but Bruce Johnston told me that the bass player on that one was Ron Brown (he told me that totally unprompted), and I believe him.  There is a contract for that session, but it just has the BB's names.  Carol DID eventually play another session for Brian, on "Everything I Need" (the BW/Tony Asher mid-'90s song Brian and Joe produced for Carnie & Wendy).

[guitarfool2002]

And of all those NY guitarists, I'd say the most familiar names were Al Caiola, Vinnie Bell, and Hugh McCracken, and I know I'm leaving some out but I'm working on my memory only...

Vinnie Bell was among the first-call best in town, he was actually a brand name because of his association with Danelectro guitars and his name being used (and he also helped develop it) on the Coral Electric Sitar, which was ubiquitous on singles in the late 60's. Among them, that's Vinnie playing electric sitar on "Cry Like A Baby", I believe.

Al Caiola was more in the easy listening/space age pop bag, recording albums under his own name for Command records, and also being part of the musicians that played all those Enoch Light "Persuasive Percussion" and "Provocative Provocative Percussion" records. I'm leaving out a lot of credits there, I know he also had a somewhat big hit with "The Magnificent Seven".

Hugh McCracken was more of the rock guy, he's all over McCartney's "Ram" album, and that's him letting rip on those weird-ass solos on "Too Many People". He was also the "reader" guitarist who played with the "by ear" guitarist Earl Slick for all of Lennon's 1980 sessions with Jack Douglas. Awesome player.

A lot of hit records we all know and hear all the time feature these guys, it's definitely worth searching a few names like those above because they get overshadowed by the LA crew, yet had dozens of hits coming out of New York and the whole Brill Building scene, among others.

[schiaffino]

Don't want to be rude or anything, but what's the deal with 'The Monkeys' in this and other BBs threads?

I personally don't like them, find them boring and overall uninteresting - compared to all the good stuff happening back in the 60s. Why are we comparing them to the band that produced the best record in history? To the band led by an acknowledged musical genius and a TM master Jedi?

If comparisons are made, for whatever reason, please use top names. Not the dull Monkeys.

And sorry, don't mean to offend anyone, but its already difficult enough defending the Boys when Mike & Bruce play Seaworld *sigh*

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

It really is a shame nobody ever did a great interview with Ray Pohlman, who I feel like next to Hal, was this sort of studio father-figure to Brian.  When the BB started augmenting themselves with studio musicians, it was Hal and Ray, and Ray was still there in the 70s cutting tracks for Brian.  He got all of the more interesting bass lines on Pet Sounds.  He was gone way too soon.

[c-man]

And of all those NY guitarists, I'd say the most familiar names were Al Caiola, Vinnie Bell, and Hugh McCracken, and I know I'm leaving some out but I'm working on my memory only...

Vinnie Bell was among the first-call best in town, he was actually a brand name because of his association with Danelectro guitars and his name being used (and he also helped develop it) on the Coral Electric Sitar, which was ubiquitous on singles in the late 60's. Among them, that's Vinnie playing electric sitar on "Cry Like A Baby", I believe.

Al Caiola was more in the easy listening/space age pop bag, recording albums under his own name for Command records, and also being part of the musicians that played all those Enoch Light "Persuasive Percussion" and "Provocative Provocative Percussion" records. I'm leaving out a lot of credits there, I know he also had a somewhat big hit with "The Magnificent Seven".

Hugh McCracken was more of the rock guy, he's all over McCartney's "Ram" album, and that's him letting rip on those weird-ass solos on "Too Many People". He was also the "reader" guitarist who played with the "by ear" guitarist Earl Slick for all of Lennon's 1980 sessions with Jack Douglas. Awesome player.

A lot of hit records we all know and hear all the time feature these guys, it's definitely worth searching a few names like those above because they get overshadowed by the LA crew, yet had dozens of hits coming out of New York and the whole Brill Building scene, among others.

I know McCracken was on about half of "Ram", with Dave Spinozza on the other half...but are you sure about the weird-ass "Too Many People" solos?  To me, they sound more like McPaul himself...compare to the solos on "Taxman" and "Good Morning Good Morning" for instance.

[AndrewHickey]

Don't want to be rude or anything, but what's the deal with 'The Monkeys' in this and other BBs threads?

I personally don't like them, find them boring and overall uninteresting - compared to all the good stuff happening back in the 60s. Why are we comparing them to the band that produced the best record in history? To the band led by an acknowledged musical genius and a TM master Jedi?

If comparisons are made, for whatever reason, please use top names. Not the dull Monkeys.

And sorry, don't mean to offend anyone, but its already difficult enough defending the Boys when Mike & Bruce play Seaworld *sigh*

Yes, I certainly can't see any possible reason whatsoever to draw Beach Boys parallels with the Monkees. After all, the Beach Boys have nothing in common with a band who, for a few years in the mid-60s, were the most popular American band of the time, the Beatles' only serious competition, who after a string of light pop hits started making strange, experimental music that lost them nearly all their fanbase overnight, who recorded in LA using many of the best session musicians but who played on far more of their own records than they're given credit for, who, if they're given credit at all by critics, tend only to get it for one album even though their work after that was far better, who have a member named Michael whose son Christian performs with him, whose work between 1967 and 1970 is pretty much ignored but utterly spectacular, whose 1980s and 1990s work is horrible, who have had remasters produced by Andrew Sandoval, whose lead singer is bald but thinks if he wears a hat no-one will realise this, and who had a reunion tour last year, featuring the eccentric genius and most talented member of the band who hadn't played live with them since the mid-90s, and who hadn't played much with them at all since the 1960s -- a reunion tour that was hugely successful, though many fans wished that the percussion-playing sex symbol of the band, whose name started with D, was still alive to join in, though he was represented by video footage.

Yeah, makes no sense at all for people to bring the Monkees up, does it?

[Paulos]

Don't want to be rude or anything, but what's the deal with 'The Monkeys' in this and other BBs threads?

I personally don't like them, find them boring and overall uninteresting - compared to all the good stuff happening back in the 60s. Why are we comparing them to the band that produced the best record in history? To the band led by an acknowledged musical genius and a TM master Jedi?

If comparisons are made, for whatever reason, please use top names. Not the dull Monkeys.

And sorry, don't mean to offend anyone, but its already difficult enough defending the Boys when Mike & Bruce play Seaworld *sigh*

Who on Earth are 'The Monkeys'??

[c-man]

Don't want to be rude or anything, but what's the deal with 'The Monkeys' in this and other BBs threads?

I personally don't like them, find them boring and overall uninteresting - compared to all the good stuff happening back in the 60s. Why are we comparing them to the band that produced the best record in history? To the band led by an acknowledged musical genius and a TM master Jedi?

If comparisons are made, for whatever reason, please use top names. Not the dull Monkeys.

And sorry, don't mean to offend anyone, but its already difficult enough defending the Boys when Mike & Bruce play Seaworld *sigh*

Yes, I certainly can't see any possible reason whatsoever to draw Beach Boys parallels with the Monkees. After all, the Beach Boys have nothing in common with a band who, for a few years in the mid-60s, were the most popular American band of the time, the Beatles' only serious competition, who after a string of light pop hits started making strange, experimental music that lost them nearly all their fanbase overnight, who recorded in LA using many of the best session musicians but who played on far more of their own records than they're given credit for, who, if they're given credit at all by critics, tend only to get it for one album even though their work after that was far better, who have a member named Michael whose son Christian performs with him, whose work between 1967 and 1970 is pretty much ignored but utterly spectacular, whose 1980s and 1990s work is horrible, who have had remasters produced by Andrew Sandoval, whose lead singer is bald but thinks if he wears a hat no-one will realise this, and who had a reunion tour last year, featuring the eccentric genius and most talented member of the band who hadn't played live with them since the mid-90s, and who hadn't played much with them at all since the 1960s -- a reunion tour that was hugely successful, though many fans wished that the percussion-playing sex symbol of the band, whose name started with D, was still alive to join in, though he was represented by video footage.

Yeah, makes no sense at all for people to bring the Monkees up, does it?

Amen, Andrew.  Preach it, brother!    Also, I might add that after the 1967 albums "Headquarters" and "Wild Honey", on which the group members themselves played most of the instruments, together AS A BAND, the next few records by both groups tended to be made more by the individual members going in and producing their own cuts, with studio players, maybe bringing the other guys in for vocals, as if they had "graduated" from their respective schools of record making (the headmasters of which were slave-driving "Stalins of the Studio"), and now the students had become masters in their own right.  The only real differences here are:  The Monkees still relied on outside writers a lot (like Goffin-King), and The Beach Boys' headmaster/Stalin was one of their own.

[AndrewHickey]

Don't want to be rude or anything, but what's the deal with 'The Monkeys' in this and other BBs threads?

I personally don't like them, find them boring and overall uninteresting - compared to all the good stuff happening back in the 60s. Why are we comparing them to the band that produced the best record in history? To the band led by an acknowledged musical genius and a TM master Jedi?

If comparisons are made, for whatever reason, please use top names. Not the dull Monkeys.

And sorry, don't mean to offend anyone, but its already difficult enough defending the Boys when Mike & Bruce play Seaworld *sigh*

Yes, I certainly can't see any possible reason whatsoever to draw Beach Boys parallels with the Monkees. After all, the Beach Boys have nothing in common with a band who, for a few years in the mid-60s, were the most popular American band of the time, the Beatles' only serious competition, who after a string of light pop hits started making strange, experimental music that lost them nearly all their fanbase overnight, who recorded in LA using many of the best session musicians but who played on far more of their own records than they're given credit for, who, if they're given credit at all by critics, tend only to get it for one album even though their work after that was far better, who have a member named Michael whose son Christian performs with him, whose work between 1967 and 1970 is pretty much ignored but utterly spectacular, whose 1980s and 1990s work is horrible, who have had remasters produced by Andrew Sandoval, whose lead singer is bald but thinks if he wears a hat no-one will realise this, and who had a reunion tour last year, featuring the eccentric genius and most talented member of the band who hadn't played live with them since the mid-90s, and who hadn't played much with them at all since the 1960s -- a reunion tour that was hugely successful, though many fans wished that the percussion-playing sex symbol of the band, whose name started with D, was still alive to join in, though he was represented by video footage.

Yeah, makes no sense at all for people to bring the Monkees up, does it?

Amen, Andrew.  Preach it, brother!    Also, I might add that after the 1967 albums "Headquarters" and "Wild Honey", on which the group members themselves played most of the instruments, together AS A BAND, the next few records by both groups tended to be made more by the individual members going in and producing their own cuts, with studio players, maybe bringing the other guys in for vocals, as if they had "graduated" from their respective schools of record producing (the headmasters of which were slave-driving "Salins of the Studio"), and now the students had become masters in their own right.  The only real differences here are The Monkees still relied on outside writers a lot (like Goffin-King), and The Beach Boys' headmaster/Stalin was one of their own.

Very true -- though even so, the single songwriter with the most credits on Monkees albums is Nesmith, and all the other members wrote plenty of songs. Something like half their repertoire was written or co-written by band members.

[schiaffino]

Don't want to be rude or anything, but what's the deal with 'The Monkeys' in this and other BBs threads?

I personally don't like them, find them boring and overall uninteresting - compared to all the good stuff happening back in the 60s. Why are we comparing them to the band that produced the best record in history? To the band led by an acknowledged musical genius and a TM master Jedi?

If comparisons are made, for whatever reason, please use top names. Not the dull Monkeys.

And sorry, don't mean to offend anyone, but its already difficult enough defending the Boys when Mike & Bruce play Seaworld *sigh*

Yes, I certainly can't see any possible reason whatsoever to draw Beach Boys parallels with the Monkees. After all, the Beach Boys have nothing in common with a band who, for a few years in the mid-60s, were the most popular American band of the time, the Beatles' only serious competition, who after a string of light pop hits started making strange, experimental music that lost them nearly all their fanbase overnight, who recorded in LA using many of the best session musicians but who played on far more of their own records than they're given credit for, who, if they're given credit at all by critics, tend only to get it for one album even though their work after that was far better, who have a member named Michael whose son Christian performs with him, whose work between 1967 and 1970 is pretty much ignored but utterly spectacular, whose 1980s and 1990s work is horrible, who have had remasters produced by Andrew Sandoval, whose lead singer is bald but thinks if he wears a hat no-one will realise this, and who had a reunion tour last year, featuring the eccentric genius and most talented member of the band who hadn't played live with them since the mid-90s, and who hadn't played much with them at all since the 1960s -- a reunion tour that was hugely successful, though many fans wished that the percussion-playing sex symbol of the band, whose name started with D, was still alive to join in, though he was represented by video footage.

Yeah, makes no sense at all for people to bring the Monkees up, does it?

Always nice to get interesting feedback from people here  and let me state, Andrew, that I follow your posts and like your overall take on many aspects of the BBs history.

But I have to disagree on the Monkeys (Monkees, whatever) comparison. Some quick arguments:

• None of their albums has been voted the best or 2nd best in history
• None of their members has been honored as much as Brian (Grammys, Kennedy awards
• Haven't heard anyone lately quoting them as a definitive musical influence
• None of their songs has a fifth of the complexity of Brian's arrangements on Today (side B), Pet Sounds, GVs or Smile
• Their history is boring and not as soap-opera hypnotizing as the BBs
• None of their members can levitate or give a Rock & Roll Hall of Fame speech as cool as Mike
• Never heard Paul McCartney mentioning a Monkey's song as a personal fav
• Never heard many successful covers of their songs, maybe except for Smash Mouth - but they sucked anyways; unlike all the David Lee Roths, Kathy Perrys, Taylor Swifts out there
• Never seen/heard Zooey Deschannel singing anything from them - ok, I'm love with her, this is not a real argument
• I'm certain they didnt sell half of what the Boys sold
• Wonder how many people would actually go to see a Monkeys/Monkees/Primates reunion tour - if ever there's one; and what kind of media hype would it get

Got many, many more reasons but have to go back to work. Debate is open, Mr. Andrew, looking forward to your reply 

[c-man]

<<Wonder how many people would actually go to see a Monkeys/Monkees/Primates reunion tour - if ever there's one; and what kind of media hype would it get>>

Seriously?  Where were you in '86?  OK, so it was close to 30 years ago, but their arena tour of that year (with 3 of the 4 Monkees) was a MAJOR media event, and LOTS of people went to see them (this after MTV played all the episodes of their TV series nonstop for days).  1997's UK tour (with 4 of the 4) was very well attended, and only slammed in the media b/c it was the BRITISH media (who slam everything).  2011's ampitheatre tour (with the same 3 of the 4 as in '86) played to packed audiences (at least the show I attended), and was excellent.  And as I'm sure Andrew will tell you, last year's mini-reunion tour (with a different 3 of the 4, sadly due to necessity) was very-well attended & received.

[BergenWhitesMoustache]

Always nice to get interesting feedback from people here  and let me state, Andrew, that I follow your posts and like your overall take on many aspects of the BBs history.

But I have to disagree on the Monkeys (Monkees, whatever) comparison. Some quick arguments:

• None of their albums has been voted the best or 2nd best in history
• None of their members has been honored as much as Brian (Grammys, Kennedy awards
• Haven't heard anyone lately quoting them as a definitive musical influence
• None of their songs has a fifth of the complexity of Brian's arrangements on Today (side B), Pet Sounds, GVs or Smile
• Their history is boring and not as soap-opera hypnotizing as the BBs
• None of their members can levitate or give a Rock & Roll Hall of Fame speech as cool as Mike
• Never heard Paul McCartney mentioning a Monkey's song as a personal fav
• Never heard many successful covers of their songs, maybe except for Smash Mouth - but they sucked anyways; unlike all the David Lee Roths, Kathy Perrys, Taylor Swifts out there
• Never seen/heard Zooey Deschannel singing anything from them - ok, I'm love with her, this is not a real argument
• I'm certain they didnt sell half of what the Boys sold
• Wonder how many people would actually go to see a Monkeys/Monkees/Primates reunion tour - if ever there's one; and what kind of media hype would it get

Got many, many more reasons but have to go back to work. Debate is open, Mr. Andrew, looking forward to your reply 

Dude, this sounds like a teenage girl summing up a rock encylopedia entry from 1971. Received wisdom, hot air.

The Monkees made some incredible records, you don't HAVE to like them, but I get the impression you've never even listened to them

If you judge groups by 'firsts' etc (which personally I don't)... they were amongst the first if not THE first group to do country tinged rock/pop, a precursor to Mike Nesmiths solo records. I have a feeling they were amongst the first groups to use a moog on record too. I dunno. All of that's irrelevent. They were just great. I'd rather listen to one of their lps than The Beatles, any day of the week.

I

[guitarfool2002]

And of all those NY guitarists, I'd say the most familiar names were Al Caiola, Vinnie Bell, and Hugh McCracken, and I know I'm leaving some out but I'm working on my memory only...

Vinnie Bell was among the first-call best in town, he was actually a brand name because of his association with Danelectro guitars and his name being used (and he also helped develop it) on the Coral Electric Sitar, which was ubiquitous on singles in the late 60's. Among them, that's Vinnie playing electric sitar on "Cry Like A Baby", I believe.

Al Caiola was more in the easy listening/space age pop bag, recording albums under his own name for Command records, and also being part of the musicians that played all those Enoch Light "Persuasive Percussion" and "Provocative Provocative Percussion" records. I'm leaving out a lot of credits there, I know he also had a somewhat big hit with "The Magnificent Seven".

Hugh McCracken was more of the rock guy, he's all over McCartney's "Ram" album, and that's him letting rip on those weird-ass solos on "Too Many People". He was also the "reader" guitarist who played with the "by ear" guitarist Earl Slick for all of Lennon's 1980 sessions with Jack Douglas. Awesome player.

A lot of hit records we all know and hear all the time feature these guys, it's definitely worth searching a few names like those above because they get overshadowed by the LA crew, yet had dozens of hits coming out of New York and the whole Brill Building scene, among others.

I know McCracken was on about half of "Ram", with Dave Spinozza on the other half...but are you sure about the weird-ass "Too Many People" solos?  To me, they sound more like McPaul himself...compare to the solos on "Taxman" and "Good Morning Good Morning" for instance.

I hear what you're saying, but I heard and read (somewhere), maybe from Paul himself, that McCracken did that lead work.

Ultimately it does sound like Paul's own style, but maybe that's what Paul asked him to play, in that style?

Until I find that interview or other proof, I'll have to say I heard it was McCracken, but it does sound close to Paul's lead guitar style. 

[AndrewHickey]

• Haven't heard anyone lately quoting them as a definitive musical influence

Speak to Probyn Gregory some time...or half the rest of Brian's band, for that matter.

• None of their songs has a fifth of the complexity of Brian's arrangements on Today (side B), Pet Sounds, GVs or Smile

You've not actually listened to any Monkees records, have you?

• Wonder how many people would actually go to see a Monkeys/Monkees/Primates reunion tour - if ever there's one; and what kind of media hype would it get

Last year's Dolenz/Nesmith/Tork tour was in the top 20 tours on Pollstar at the time it was running -- http://www.monkeesconcerts.com/1/category/2012%20monkees%20tour/1.html -- despite being a deliberately low-key one (Nesmith only agreed to a very short tour). The year before's reunion tour, without Nesmith, played the same kind of venues the Beach Boys reunion tour did, and got, at least in the UK, *major* news coverage  -- far more than the Beach Boys reunion did. Tickets for the UK leg of the tour sold out within minutes.

[NHC]

Yes, Carl on the "Rhonda" 45 solo.
Contrary to popular belief, Carl played virtually ALL the guitar solos on Beach Boys records in the '60s.  Exceptions would be the instrumentals "Summer Means New Love" (Tommy Tedesco) and "Pet Sounds" (Billy Strange), and of course "Bluebirds" (Eddie Carter...probably also Eddie on "All I Want To Do", as the tone is pretty similar).  Right now I can't think of any other BBs guitar solos from the '60s that weren't Carl. 

Does this include all the instrumentals on Surfin' USA?  I always presumed they were Carl, and figured that was pretty good for a teen-ager, why couldn't I play Honkey Tonk and Miserlou like that myself, after all I was a teen-ager, too, but then later when the whole business about studio musicians and wrecking crews and the allegations that the band didn't really play anything in the studio from the beginning, blah, blah, blah, I began to wonder (and wanted to think "Hah! He wasn't that much better than me after all" - what a joke). Then when the stories began to be torn down by facts, I was back to what I always had believed in the 60's - that was Carl.  Correct?

Yes, correct:  Carl.

Thank you.  My day is complete   I was so let down when I was led to believe he hadn't played any of that.  Great stuff for a young picker and I always wanted to know it was really Carl.  Wish some of their songs in later years had featured more of that, but, things move on . . . . . .