Great instrument playing moments in BBs recordings

[monicker]

-Billy Strange's and Carl's 12 Strings on the Single Version of Help Me, Rhonda. In the new Stereo Mix from 2012 you can hear both, amazing! thanks Derry!
-Carl's 12 String Acoustic Guitar on the cover of Then I Kissed Her, the closest the Beach Boys came to country before Cotton Fields.
-Red Rhode's Pedal Steel Guitar on the Single Version of Cotton Fields.
-Hal Blaine's Orange Juice Container Percussion on God Only Knows.
-Brian's Organ playing on Gettin' Hungry.
Who could forget Paul Tanner all over the Good Vibrations Sessions, with his Electro Theremin!
-Carl and Glen on the intro of Dance, Dance, Dance with their 12 string Guitars!

Actually, it's Jim Gordon playing the plastic orange juice containers on God Only Knows (Hal played a regular drum kit...although he did play the empty Sparklett's water jug on Caroline, No).  And, on Dance, Dance, Dance Carl played electric 12-string, but Glen played acoustic 6-string. 

Does anyone have a picture of what the plastic OJ containers that Brian used for percussion looked like? I've read about these so many times over the years but have never seen a photo and, honestly, i'm really unsure what sort of containers we're talking about here, and would love to see a photo. What did they look like? It's such an unbelievable sound. I know i read once someone, maybe Brian or Hal or another WC member, talking about how common these were during that time, how everyone drank them, and i believe (unless i'm making this up) that Hal once mentioned how you could just go out to the lounge or hallway or whatever of one of the studios (presumably Western?) and buy this orange juice from a machine (?)

Also, i seem to recall Hal once mentioning cups of some sort (i thought it was orange juice cups?), and in one of the GV sessions Brian mentions cups, how he wants to just hear, if i recall, Fender bass, piano, and the cups. What are these cups? Would this be the same as the OJ containers or something different?

Lastly, i know it's Wikipedia, but the Pet Sounds page mentiones Coca Cola cans. Is that just nonsense?

And the Sparklett's water jug would look something like this, right?

[guitarfool2002]

Actually, it's Jim Gordon playing the plastic orange juice containers on God Only Knows (Hal played a regular drum kit...although he did play the empty Sparklett's water jug on Caroline, No).  And, on Dance, Dance, Dance Carl played electric 12-string, but Glen played acoustic 6-string.  

I thought the studio legend was that Glen made a mistake and played the 12-string line/riff wrong, but they kept the mistake and rewrote the part because Brian thought it was better?

Also - not that I'm arguing - but from a guitarist's standpoint that electric 12-string guitar solo sounds much more like Glen's style then Carl's, especially how he threw in the little Rickenbacker-centric 16th note rhythmic strumming phrase toward the end, just before the string bends. Honestly - and not to detract from Carl at all - that solo sounds more like a Glen solo from a technical-skill and feel angle then anything Carl had played on 12-string. Again, if it's Carl then I've been mistaken for the better part of three decades, but that solo not only defines a few classic "Rickenbacker licks" and sounds but also was what I thought was one of Glen's better solos...exciting as hell.

Compare Glen soloing on the Monkees' "Mary Mary" to Dance Dance Dance...the phrasing is so similar, and unlike Carl.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong, and it would blow my mind to correct the facts on this one if Carl did in fact take the solo.

Its definitely Carl. There are fingerprints in his solos and those 16th note flurrys are one of them that pops up in I Get Around, Do You Wanna Dance and some of his other early solos. David actually demonstrated to me the right hand position and quirky stroke that was unique to Carl that he developed early on. In Dance Dance Dance he really leans on that quick quirky rhythm style. I disagree that it sounds like Glen, who, as on Mary Mary was a much smoother and less nervous/chunky player. There's a Carl feel that's unmistakable and IMO Dance Dance Dance screams Carl. BTW Glen's anecdotes about his playing on BB's sessions has been proven wrong again and again by the actual session tapes. He's there on the Dance Dance Dance session, but in a support role to Carl.  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23pKKGIIPbA

There is always something to learn! So it was Carl, I stand corrected and again I'll say for decades I'd hear that solo and think it was Glen letting rip on that 12-string, the style had some of Glen's trademark riffs and rhythms yet feels like a "seat of your pants" kind of deal where it's just a burst of energy happening live.

I guess you can't assume anything about much of anything with this band...and having heard some of the session tapes but probably not as much as others had access to, and not having the amazing opportunity to have David Marks actually *demonstrate* the style    in person, this has been an awesome bit of info.

The Help Me Rhonda single mix, the one where they cut the solo live during the final mixing stages...Carl again?

Awesome info all around.

[c-man]

The organ/keyboard freak-out on "Leaving This Town" from In Concert leaves me speechless every time.... The moog solo on the Holland is great too and really suits the vibe of the album.

Moog on studio version: Ricky Fataar
Organ on live version: Carli Muñoz

Incidentally, although the song was apparently recorded after they'd returned to the U.S. (at the Village Recorder in L.A.), it actually WAS written in Holland.

[c-man]

Yes, Carl on the "Rhonda" 45 solo.
Contrary to popular belief, Carl played virtually ALL the guitar solos on Beach Boys records in the '60s.  Exceptions would be the instrumentals "Summer Means New Love" (Tommy Tedesco) and "Pet Sounds" (Billy Strange), and of course "Bluebirds" (Eddie Carter...probably also Eddie on "All I Want To Do", as the tone is pretty similar).  Right now I can't think of any other BBs guitar solos from the '60s that weren't Carl. 

[guitarfool2002]

Yes, Carl on the "Rhonda" 45 solo.

Awesome, thanks! Again, another one I always thought was Glen, and it's not like I just started looking into this kind of stuff either...

[c-man]

Weren't Sparklett water jugs glass?  There's Dennis' famous story of how he dropped one, jumped up, and landed squarely on the broken glass, thus severing tendons in his foot.  This was mid-'70s.  As for the orange juice cups...on the "GOK" session, Jim Gordon starts out playing bongos with sticks, but Brian has him switch to the cups by the time of the final take.  On the first "GV" session (the one that produced the verses for the master edit), the exact opposite occured...Frankie Capp started out on the cups, but Brian has him switch to playing the bongos (again with sticks) for the final take. 

[guitarfool2002]

Does anyone have a picture of what the plastic OJ containers that Brian used for percussion looked like? I've read about these so many times over the years but have never seen a photo and, honestly, i'm really unsure what sort of containers we're talking about here, and would love to see a photo. What did they look like? It's such an unbelievable sound. I know i read once someone, maybe Brian or Hal or another WC member, talking about how common these were during that time, how everyone drank them, and i believe (unless i'm making this up) that Hal once mentioned how you could just go out to the lounge or hallway or whatever of one of the studios (presumably Western?) and buy this orange juice from a machine (?)

Great question, actually one I've wanted to know as well.

For what it's worth, when I was a little kid in the 70's my parents would buy me these little drink containers which all came from the local dairy, so the milks and the orange juices and the orange drinks and whatnot would all come in these waxed cardboard containers, like a miniature milk carton (see that Blur video...). And others were cardboard but had a little cut-out thing that you could punch a straw into. These were the standard way of buying drinks on the go like this at least in the Philly area not too far after '66, if a decade is not too far off.

Then there were these little plastic barrels called "Little Hugs", which you'd peel the foil lid off the top and drink the juice. I've actually "drummed" on empties of those as a kid, I remember...they're more percussive than the cardboard.

The frustrating thing is that each dairy selling this stuff - and I'm assuming that's how it was in LA in '66, that a dairy would be stocking the milk and juice vending machines - probably used a different carton supplier, so unless Hal Blaine kept one somewhere as a reminder, the cartons or containers at the studio in March '66 may not have been the vendors they were using in July '66.

Interesting question.

[guitarfool2002]

Weren't Sparklett water jugs glass?  There's Dennis' famous story of how he dropped one, jumped up, and landed squarely on the broken glass, thus severing tendons in his foot.  This was mid-'70s.  As for the orange juice cups...on the "GOK" session, Jim Gordon starts out playing bongos with sticks, but Brian has him switch to the cups by the time of the final take.  On the first "GV" session (the one that produced the verses for the master edit), the exact opposite occured...Frankie Capp started out on the cups, but Brian has him switch to playing the bongos (again with sticks) for the final take. 

Beat me to it...as far as I know, I thought in the mid 60's office and workplace water containers were made of heavy glass. The lighter plastic ones, which ironically it sounds more like Hal is hitting on the recording, I didn't think came around until later.

The vending machines for the juice, rather than containers, could have been the ones where the empty cup drops down and the juice coffee or milk fills it up. So the cup may have been nothing more than...a cup!

[schiaffino]

I know its an acquired taste, but  I sincerely think 'Matchpoint' is an amazing song. From what I know/read the band recorded this on their own (I believe mostly Al & Brian played instruments, nor Dennis nor Carl were actively involved in those sessions).

If the above holds true, Al did most of the guitar work on this song. And IMO its one of his best guitar playing moments! The whole song has such a natural flow to it, the guitar just goes along. It doesnt drive the song, its not all-over it. There's no crazy solos, but just a cool, jazzy layer that follows Brian's amazing vocals.

The open chords at the end of the song are genius. Beautiful. Great playing, Al.

[monicker]

The opening sound on Caroline No is...glass?? 

[guitarfool2002]

The opening sound on Caroline No is...glass?? 

Aye, there's the rub...I hear a felt-tipped drum mallet hitting on plastic too, but the fact that I'm almost sure most if not all water jugs that you'd find on top of water coolers in the mid 60's were made of heavy glass. Into the 80's, the water suppliers around here that were delivering spring water were still using glass, even the ones that would deliver the half-gallon bottles to our house each week, then picking up the empties, just like the milk man.

I tell my students all the time, "trust your ears", and damn if I don't hear a plastic bottle on the recording, too. Yet the water coolers were mostly glass jugs in '66.

Go figure!

[c-man]

The opening sound on Caroline No is...glass?? 

Aye, there's the rub...I hear a felt-tipped drum mallet hitting on plastic too, but the fact that I'm almost sure most if not all water jugs that you'd find on top of water coolers in the mid 60's were made of heavy glass. Into the 80's, the water suppliers around here that were delivering spring water were still using glass, even the ones that would deliver the half-gallon bottles to our house each week, then picking up the empties, just like the milk man.

I tell my students all the time, "trust your ears", and damn if I don't hear a plastic bottle on the recording, too. Yet the water coolers were mostly glass jugs in '66.

Go figure!

The "drums" on "Take A Load Off Your Feet" are reportedly Brian playing an empty 5-gallon Sparkletts glass water bottle with a soft mallet.

[guitarfool2002]

Contrary to popular belief, Carl played virtually ALL the guitar solos on Beach Boys records in the '60s.  Exceptions would be the instrumentals "Summer Means New Love" (Tommy Tedesco) and "Pet Sounds" (Billy Strange), and of course "Bluebirds" (Eddie Carter...probably also Eddie on "All I Want To Do", as the tone is pretty similar).  Right now I can't think of any other BBs guitar solos from the '60s that weren't Carl. 

I wanted to add something to this: The issue of Dennis being under-credited for his drum performances on the records has been at the forefront, and it's been great to see the facts laid out to give him his due credits for some classic grooves.

Yet as a guitarist, I think the even bigger injustice that needs correcting is the issue of Carl's guitar credits.

I can't remember all of the times I've read or heard respectful, knowledgeable, and known musicians and historians/writers without an agenda say that Tommy or Glen or Billy or any of the other session cats played a guitar part or solo on a BB's track when in reality it was Carl.

I was guilty of it with Dance Dance Dance, and I have no agenda and what I'd consider a pretty decent knowledge of the topic.

In one famous guitar magazine article on the Beach Boys and the Wrecking Crew guitarists, I think they even suggested if not said the session guys played what Carl actually played.

As was done with Dennis, I think this needs to be corrected. I may have a few ideas on a possibility for correcting it on a larger scale, once things settle down I may contact some folks here with a few ideas...

Because it is a real shame to have thousands of well-meaning and historically minded guitar players reading stuff and assuming none of what they hear as a great guitar track came from Carl, when most of it actually did, especially the solos.

[c-man]

I know its an acquired taste, but  I sincerely think 'Matchpoint' is an amazing song. From what I know/read the band recorded this on their own (I believe mostly Al & Brian played instruments, nor Dennis nor Carl were actively involved in those sessions).

If the above holds true, Al did most of the guitar work on this song. And IMO its one of his best guitar playing moments! The whole song has such a natural flow to it, the guitar just goes along. It doesnt drive the song, its not all-over it. There's no crazy solos, but just a cool, jazzy layer that follows Brian's amazing vocals.

The open chords at the end of the song are genius. Beautiful. Great playing, Al.

No, actually, the MIU tracks were recorded with the BB's road band at the time.  It's true Al played more guitar on that album than probably any other BBs studio LP besides "Party!", but the jazzy lead guitar flourishes on "Matchpoint" are Ed Carter.

[c-man]

Contrary to popular belief, Carl played virtually ALL the guitar solos on Beach Boys records in the '60s.  Exceptions would be the instrumentals "Summer Means New Love" (Tommy Tedesco) and "Pet Sounds" (Billy Strange), and of course "Bluebirds" (Eddie Carter...probably also Eddie on "All I Want To Do", as the tone is pretty similar).  Right now I can't think of any other BBs guitar solos from the '60s that weren't Carl. 

I wanted to add something to this: The issue of Dennis being under-credited for his drum performances on the records has been at the forefront, and it's been great to see the facts laid out to give him his due credits for some classic grooves.

Yet as a guitarist, I think the even bigger injustice that needs correcting is the issue of Carl's guitar credits.

I can't remember all of the times I've read or heard respectful, knowledgeable, and known musicians and historians/writers without an agenda say that Tommy or Glen or Billy or any of the other session cats played a guitar part or solo on a BB's track when in reality it was Carl.

I was guilty of it with Dance Dance Dance, and I have no agenda and what I'd consider a pretty decent knowledge of the topic.

In one famous guitar magazine article on the Beach Boys and the Wrecking Crew guitarists, I think they even suggested if not said the session guys played what Carl actually played.

As was done with Dennis, I think this needs to be corrected. I may have a few ideas on a possibility for correcting it on a larger scale, once things settle down I may contact some folks here with a few ideas...

Because it is a real shame to have thousands of well-meaning and historically minded guitar players reading stuff and assuming none of what they hear as a great guitar track came from Carl, when most of it actually did, especially the solos.

Indeed.  Back in the early or mid '90s (I think it was a '95 issue of Relix), there was a Carol Kaye interview where she said something to the effect that while Carl would occasionally play 12-string from the control booth, all the"wild" solos on those records were actually Glen Campbell or Billy Strange.  And some books (of the "Billboard Top Hits of the Rock Era" variety) started to appear where Tommy Tedesco was credited with the solo on "I Get Around".  And we all assumed that Hal took over the drumming from Dennis starting with "Surfin' USA" (the song) and "Little Deuce Coupe" (the song).  I for one took it all at face value and assumed it to be true...until I started seeing the AFM contracts (the shock I felt when seeing Dennis' name as the only drummer on the "All Dressed Up For School" contract is something I'll never forget!) and hearing the session tapes.  Tommy Tedesco even told one interviewer that he didn't remember playing any solos on their songs, only rhythm guitar, but because some book gave him credit for it, he assumed it was true.  In the case of players like Tedesco, we gotta remember they played MANY, MANY sessions, sometimes multiple sessions in one day, for a lot of years...including Brian's non-BBs productions (for the Honeys and others).  I'm sure in many or most cases they weren't told anything other than "It's a Brian Wilson session", so they wouldn't know (in many cases, at least), or even remember, if the track they were doing was destined for the BBs or someone else.  AND, from what I've read, many of them weren't even into "teenage pop" music, and therefore probably didn't listen to those types of radio stations (Carol is a noted exception).  Bill Pitman, for instance, loathed rock 'n' roll, and listed to jazz pretty much exclusively.  So it's not as though all of these guys would hear the song on the radio & remember playing on it, and remember it years later for that fact.  The AFM contracts and session tapes (especially when the two are matched up) paint a much more accurate picture.

[guitarfool2002]

Contrary to popular belief, Carl played virtually ALL the guitar solos on Beach Boys records in the '60s.  Exceptions would be the instrumentals "Summer Means New Love" (Tommy Tedesco) and "Pet Sounds" (Billy Strange), and of course "Bluebirds" (Eddie Carter...probably also Eddie on "All I Want To Do", as the tone is pretty similar).  Right now I can't think of any other BBs guitar solos from the '60s that weren't Carl.  

I wanted to add something to this: The issue of Dennis being under-credited for his drum performances on the records has been at the forefront, and it's been great to see the facts laid out to give him his due credits for some classic grooves.

Yet as a guitarist, I think the even bigger injustice that needs correcting is the issue of Carl's guitar credits.

I can't remember all of the times I've read or heard respectful, knowledgeable, and known musicians and historians/writers without an agenda say that Tommy or Glen or Billy or any of the other session cats played a guitar part or solo on a BB's track when in reality it was Carl.

I was guilty of it with Dance Dance Dance, and I have no agenda and what I'd consider a pretty decent knowledge of the topic.

In one famous guitar magazine article on the Beach Boys and the Wrecking Crew guitarists, I think they even suggested if not said the session guys played what Carl actually played.

As was done with Dennis, I think this needs to be corrected. I may have a few ideas on a possibility for correcting it on a larger scale, once things settle down I may contact some folks here with a few ideas...

Because it is a real shame to have thousands of well-meaning and historically minded guitar players reading stuff and assuming none of what they hear as a great guitar track came from Carl, when most of it actually did, especially the solos.

Indeed.  Back in the early or mid '90s (I think it was a '95 issue of Relix), there was a Carol Kaye interview where she said something to the effect that while Carl would occasionally play 12-string from the control booth, all the"wild" solos on those records were actually Glen Campbell or Billy Strange.  And some books (of the "Billboard Top Hits of the Rock Era" variety) started to appear where Tommy Tedesco was credited with the solo on "I Get Around".  And we all assumed that Hal took over the drumming from Dennis starting with "Surfin' USA" (the song) and "Little Deuce Coupe" (the song).  I for one took it all at face value and assumed it to be true...until I started seeing the AFM contracts (the shock I felt when seeing Dennis' name as the only drummer on the "All Dressed Up For School" contract is something I'll never forget!) and hearing the session tapes.  Tommy Tedesco even told one interviewer that he didn't remember playing any solos on their songs, only rhythm guitar, but because some book gave him credit for it, he assumed it was true.  In the case of players like Tedesco, we gotta remember they played MANY, MANY sessions, sometimes multiple sessions in one day, for a lot of years...including Brian's non-BBs productions (for the Honeys and others).  I'm sure in many or most cases they weren't told anything other than "It's a Brian Wilson session", so they wouldn't know (in many cases, at least), or even remember, if the track they were doing was destined for the BBs or someone else.  AND, from what I've read, many of them weren't even into "teenage pop" music, and therefore probably didn't listen to those types of radio stations (Carol is a noted exception).  Bill Pitman, for instance, loathed rock 'n' roll, and listed to jazz pretty much exclusively.  So it's not as though all of these guys would hear the song on the radio & remember playing on it, and remember it years later for that fact.  The AFM contracts and session tapes (especially when the two are matched up) paint a much more accurate picture.

100% agree. On the flip-side, sometimes it seems a finger of accusation gets pointed at some of these musicians too, and many are not the ones with an agenda or those trying to collect credits they didn't earn. What you said is the case most often: They wouldn't know, and the session world was a great paying gig, but it did resemble an assembly line process where these musicians would set up and might play three of four sessions each day ranging from a toy jingle to a demo for some production house to a Brian Wilson session...it was, really, an assembly line of music, albeit a highly paid one.

But short of session tapes and sheets, and even those sometimes don't tell the whole story, they don't remember as much as we might like them to...

Tommy Tedesco knew this years before the Funk Brothers-Wrecking Crew historical revival became a mainstream thing. He had a big sense of humor, and from the clinics and stuff I've seen on video, his stories were as useful if not moreso than the actual guitar concepts he'd cover!

At one of these, Tommy said he loves going to these clinics and conventions because people come up to him thanking and praising him for guitar parts he didn't even know he played! Peter Gunn, the Mancini soundtrack is a great example. Many folks assumed for whatever reason that Tommy played the famous intro and he and Barney Kessel played most of the guitar parts on the tunes. I think Tommy may have been seen miming in an episode of the show, but the majority of that soundtrack was Bob Bain, who was easily in the top 3 guitarists in Hollywood, if not first call. One of the best. Yet, many think Peter Gunn and think it was Tommy or Barney, for whatever reasons.

So what Tommy began doing was putting actual session sheets, lead sheets and film/TV cues, plus stories and anecdotes and instrument lists for familiar sessions he did play into Guitar Player magazine, in his monthly column. I loved that column, I miss it dearly and have for 20 years or however long it's been since it ended. That column, if anything, sparked an interest in my learning to more seriously read and write music, and getting into Tommy's unique way he'd "cheat" on any number of exotic instruments by tuning them like a guitar and playing whatever notes were put in front of him.

So Tommy for one was aware that folks were thinking he played on such-and-such song, and praising him for it in person, and he admits he just didn't remember all of it. But what he did have, and knew about, he'd share with audiences or the Guitar Player readers when his column was active. Damn, I miss that column and wish they'd reprint his full run.

I cannot, ever, point a finger at him for getting credit for something that wasn't his part, and I know there are exceptions but I think most of these players on that "assembly line" in 1960's LA were the same way.

But getting credit back to Carl where it belongs is something I think we can do, and I'd like to take it further once things stabilize a bit more.

[Mikie]

The opening sound on Caroline No is...glass?? 

Aye, there's the rub...I hear a felt-tipped drum mallet hitting on plastic too, but the fact that I'm almost sure most if not all water jugs that you'd find on top of water coolers in the mid 60's were made of heavy glass. Into the 80's, the water suppliers around here that were delivering spring water were still using glass, even the ones that would deliver the half-gallon bottles to our house each week, then picking up the empties, just like the milk man.

I tell my students all the time, "trust your ears", and damn if I don't hear a plastic bottle on the recording, too. Yet the water coolers were mostly glass jugs in '66.

Go figure!

The "drums" on "Take A Load Off Your Feet" are reportedly Brian playing an empty 5-gallon Sparkletts glass water bottle with a soft mallet.

And the "percussive" rustling gravel sounds are Brian on the roof shuffling his feet.

[Jon Stebbins]

Contrary to popular belief, Carl played virtually ALL the guitar solos on Beach Boys records in the '60s.  Exceptions would be the instrumentals "Summer Means New Love" (Tommy Tedesco) and "Pet Sounds" (Billy Strange), and of course "Bluebirds" (Eddie Carter...probably also Eddie on "All I Want To Do", as the tone is pretty similar).  Right now I can't think of any other BBs guitar solos from the '60s that weren't Carl.  

I wanted to add something to this: The issue of Dennis being under-credited for his drum performances on the records has been at the forefront, and it's been great to see the facts laid out to give him his due credits for some classic grooves.

Yet as a guitarist, I think the even bigger injustice that needs correcting is the issue of Carl's guitar credits.

I can't remember all of the times I've read or heard respectful, knowledgeable, and known musicians and historians/writers without an agenda say that Tommy or Glen or Billy or any of the other session cats played a guitar part or solo on a BB's track when in reality it was Carl.

I was guilty of it with Dance Dance Dance, and I have no agenda and what I'd consider a pretty decent knowledge of the topic.

In one famous guitar magazine article on the Beach Boys and the Wrecking Crew guitarists, I think they even suggested if not said the session guys played what Carl actually played.

As was done with Dennis, I think this needs to be corrected. I may have a few ideas on a possibility for correcting it on a larger scale, once things settle down I may contact some folks here with a few ideas...

Because it is a real shame to have thousands of well-meaning and historically minded guitar players reading stuff and assuming none of what they hear as a great guitar track came from Carl, when most of it actually did, especially the solos.

I really think the assumption Hal Blaine replaced Dennis on nearly all the Beach Boys studio work is far more prevalent than what is generally assumed regarding Carl. But Carl is highly under-credited as well, both because he played on even more things than Dennis, and because he was the soloist on the vast majority of pre-66 BB's records that contain solos. My Beach Boys FAQ book published a couple of years ago has a fairly detailed list of the pr-66 records that feature the Beach Boys themselves as musicians on the tracks (thanks to C-man for all of his input on that list). But that book is a tiny voice in a world of "experts" who think they know that Carl and Dennis, not to mention Al, Dave and Brian, didn't play instruments and were only singers on anything after the first couple of albums. We have a Wrecking Crew movie and a Wrecking Crew book out there now both perpetuating the myth that the Beach Boys did not play on their records. D Tedesco was confronted on Facebook by myself, Mark Linett, and AGD that he was putting forth misinformation by claiming that the Wrecking Crew played on Don't Worry Baby (which is 100% Beach Boys) and I Get Around which features Carl on guitars, Al on bass, Dennis on drums, Brian on keyboards with Ray Pohlman on a second bass, and Hal on added percussion. Tedesco ignored this, even when Linett and I insured that we'd heard multi-track tapes that prove our knowledge that the Beach Boys were the musicians on these recordings. Go to any message board, Steve Hoffman, go to any youtube link for one of the Beach Boys songs with Carl as guitarist or Dennis as drummer and you'll see endless comments about Hal Blaine's drumming or Carole's bass or Tedesco or Billy Strange etc.. The general consensus, especially among musicos is that the Wrecking Crew plays on all the well-known Beach Boys stuff from the '60's. Any assumption that the problem with Dennis is somehow solved and now we need to move on to Carl is off base. Our little group of 83 fans might be wiser, but out there the thousands of experts who are still being taught the wrong things by badly researched books, articles, films, and countless untrue anecdotes and comments from the surviving WC principals and offspring of the principals continues to damage the true history of the Beach Boys, and in essence disrespects the actual great work of the Wrecking Crew. Its been less frustrating for me with allies like C-man, AGD and Boyd and Linett, but we are a minority in our knowledge of the Beach Boys as musicians, and the uphill battle we face has actually gotten steeper, even in the case of Dennis, as more people become aware of the Wrecking Crew and more are taught the prevailing myths regarding their association with the Beach Boys.

[DonnyL]

-Billy Strange's and Carl's 12 Strings on the Single Version of Help Me, Rhonda. In the new Stereo Mix from 2012 you can hear both, amazing! thanks Derry!
-Carl's 12 String Acoustic Guitar on the cover of Then I Kissed Her, the closest the Beach Boys came to country before Cotton Fields.
-Red Rhode's Pedal Steel Guitar on the Single Version of Cotton Fields.
-Hal Blaine's Orange Juice Container Percussion on God Only Knows.
-Brian's Organ playing on Gettin' Hungry.
Who could forget Paul Tanner all over the Good Vibrations Sessions, with his Electro Theremin!
-Carl and Glen on the intro of Dance, Dance, Dance with their 12 string Guitars!

Actually, it's Jim Gordon playing the plastic orange juice containers on God Only Knows (Hal played a regular drum kit...although he did play the empty Sparklett's water jug on Caroline, No).  And, on Dance, Dance, Dance Carl played electric 12-string, but Glen played acoustic 6-string. 

Does anyone have a picture of what the plastic OJ containers that Brian used for percussion looked like? I've read about these so many times over the years but have never seen a photo and, honestly, i'm really unsure what sort of containers we're talking about here, and would love to see a photo. What did they look like? It's such an unbelievable sound. I know i read once someone, maybe Brian or Hal or another WC member, talking about how common these were during that time, how everyone drank them, and i believe (unless i'm making this up) that Hal once mentioned how you could just go out to the lounge or hallway or whatever of one of the studios (presumably Western?) and buy this orange juice from a machine (?)

Also, i seem to recall Hal once mentioning cups of some sort (i thought it was orange juice cups?), and in one of the GV sessions Brian mentions cups, how he wants to just hear, if i recall, Fender bass, piano, and the cups. What are these cups? Would this be the same as the OJ containers or something different?

Lastly, i know it's Wikipedia, but the Pet Sounds page mentiones Coca Cola cans. Is that just nonsense?

And the Sparklett's water jug would look something like this, right?

I've been wondering about this lately as well.

Too bad all of our consumer products these days are made out of thin plastic -- terrible tone !

[Mikie]

Just lost my damn post. Briefly, the Sparkletts and milk and orange juice containers were glass back then. I have a 5 gallon plastic Alhambra container in my kitchen right now and can come close to simulating that hollow sound on Caroline No. I'm just not so sure you can simulate that same sound on a glass container, which was prevalent back in the 60's. I don't have a glass one to try, but it just seems to me.....I mean, the cap has to be removed for starters to give it that deep percussive sound......and the mic placed strategically up to the spout.....and the mallet has to hit just so.....

I dunno.

[guitarfool2002]

Contrary to popular belief, Carl played virtually ALL the guitar solos on Beach Boys records in the '60s.  Exceptions would be the instrumentals "Summer Means New Love" (Tommy Tedesco) and "Pet Sounds" (Billy Strange), and of course "Bluebirds" (Eddie Carter...probably also Eddie on "All I Want To Do", as the tone is pretty similar).  Right now I can't think of any other BBs guitar solos from the '60s that weren't Carl.  

I wanted to add something to this: The issue of Dennis being under-credited for his drum performances on the records has been at the forefront, and it's been great to see the facts laid out to give him his due credits for some classic grooves.

Yet as a guitarist, I think the even bigger injustice that needs correcting is the issue of Carl's guitar credits.

I can't remember all of the times I've read or heard respectful, knowledgeable, and known musicians and historians/writers without an agenda say that Tommy or Glen or Billy or any of the other session cats played a guitar part or solo on a BB's track when in reality it was Carl.

I was guilty of it with Dance Dance Dance, and I have no agenda and what I'd consider a pretty decent knowledge of the topic.

In one famous guitar magazine article on the Beach Boys and the Wrecking Crew guitarists, I think they even suggested if not said the session guys played what Carl actually played.

As was done with Dennis, I think this needs to be corrected. I may have a few ideas on a possibility for correcting it on a larger scale, once things settle down I may contact some folks here with a few ideas...

Because it is a real shame to have thousands of well-meaning and historically minded guitar players reading stuff and assuming none of what they hear as a great guitar track came from Carl, when most of it actually did, especially the solos.

I really think the assumption Hal Blaine replaced Dennis on nearly all the Beach Boys studio work is far more prevalent than what is generally assumed regarding Carl. But Carl is highly under-credited as well, both because he played on even more things than Dennis, and because he was the soloist on the vast majority of pre-66 BB's records that contain solos. My Beach Boys FAQ book published a couple of years ago has a fairly detailed list of the pr-66 records that feature the Beach Boys themselves as musicians on the tracks (thanks to C-man for all of his input on that list). But that book is a tiny voice in a world of "experts" who think they know that Carl and Dennis, not to mention Al, Dave and Brian, didn't play instruments and were only singers on anything after the first couple of albums. We have a Wrecking Crew movie and a Wrecking Crew book out there now both perpetuating the myth that the Beach Boys did not play on their records. D Tedesco was confronted on Facebook by myself, Mark Linett, and AGD that he was putting forth misinformation by claiming that the Wrecking Crew played on Don't Worry Baby (which is 100% Beach Boys) and I Get Around which features Carl on guitars, Al on bass, Dennis on drums, Brian on keyboards with Ray Pohlman on a second bass, and Hal on added percussion. Tedesco ignored this, even when Linett and I insured that we'd heard multi-track masters that prove our knowledge that the Beach Boys were the musicians on these recordings. Go to any message board, Steve Hoffman, go to any youtube link for one of the Beach Boys songs with Carl as guitarist or Dennis as drummer and you'll see endless comments about Hal Blaine's drumming or Carole's bass or Tedesco or Billy Strange etc.. The general consensus, especially among musicos is that the Wrecking Crew plays on all the well-known Beach Boys stuff from the '60's. Any assumption that the problem with Dennis is somehow solved and now we need to move on to Carl is off base. Our little group of 83 fans might be wiser, but out there the thousands of experts who are still being taught the wrong things by badly researched books, articles, films, and countless untrue anecdotes and comments from the surviving WC principals and offspring of the principals continues to damage the true history of the Beach Boys, and in essence disrespects the actual great work of the Wrecking Crew. Its been less frustrating for me with allies like C-man, AGD and Boyd and Linett, but we are a minority in our knowledge of the Beach Boys as musicians, and the uphill battle we face has actually gotten steeper, even in the case of Dennis, as more people become aware of the Wrecking Crew and more are taught the prevailing myths regarding their association with the Beach Boys.

I realize this, Jon, and I'm not suggesting the issue of Dennis' credits has been resolved in any way, it's a neverending battle to correct this outside of the BB's fan/web world. But as a guitarist, I guess reading this thread struck a deeper chord with me personally (pun intended...) because I have seen and heard firsthand and thirdhand and in between many musicians who assume, as you said, that Carl after a certain point post-surf sound BB's was persona not grata on the classic records featuring classic guitar solos.

What I'm asking and saying is that I'd like to offer a few outlets to those interested and those who have actively put forth the correct info regarding Dennis to perhaps get the info out there in a more broad way about Carl. I've already said it multiple times this morning, but the Dance Dance Dance solo was a revelation for me, and I think I may have a few outlets to consider and a few ways to do it where people go for info who like me have played and enjoyed those solos for years and had just assumed it was someone other than Carl.

If I could ask for a brainstorming session or just a few exchanges of ideas and whatnot, I'd seriously like to talk about some of this stuff with those who devote their time and efforts to the history of this music, and I think some great info could be offered outside of this BB's-centric scene. It's a long shot but one I think is worth taking, and I'd like to pursue it if some of you would be interested in joining. Again, it's a long shot but there may be some ways that I think people outside of this community would find as revelatory about Carl and his guitar work as I did this morning, and there are a few outlets which I think would offer that opportunity and who may just be interested in publishing it.

Please consider, I'm serious about this.

[Jon Stebbins]

Contrary to popular belief, Carl played virtually ALL the guitar solos on Beach Boys records in the '60s.  Exceptions would be the instrumentals "Summer Means New Love" (Tommy Tedesco) and "Pet Sounds" (Billy Strange), and of course "Bluebirds" (Eddie Carter...probably also Eddie on "All I Want To Do", as the tone is pretty similar).  Right now I can't think of any other BBs guitar solos from the '60s that weren't Carl.  

I wanted to add something to this: The issue of Dennis being under-credited for his drum performances on the records has been at the forefront, and it's been great to see the facts laid out to give him his due credits for some classic grooves.

Yet as a guitarist, I think the even bigger injustice that needs correcting is the issue of Carl's guitar credits.

I can't remember all of the times I've read or heard respectful, knowledgeable, and known musicians and historians/writers without an agenda say that Tommy or Glen or Billy or any of the other session cats played a guitar part or solo on a BB's track when in reality it was Carl.

I was guilty of it with Dance Dance Dance, and I have no agenda and what I'd consider a pretty decent knowledge of the topic.

In one famous guitar magazine article on the Beach Boys and the Wrecking Crew guitarists, I think they even suggested if not said the session guys played what Carl actually played.

As was done with Dennis, I think this needs to be corrected. I may have a few ideas on a possibility for correcting it on a larger scale, once things settle down I may contact some folks here with a few ideas...

Because it is a real shame to have thousands of well-meaning and historically minded guitar players reading stuff and assuming none of what they hear as a great guitar track came from Carl, when most of it actually did, especially the solos.

I really think the assumption Hal Blaine replaced Dennis on nearly all the Beach Boys studio work is far more prevalent than what is generally assumed regarding Carl. But Carl is highly under-credited as well, both because he played on even more things than Dennis, and because he was the soloist on the vast majority of pre-66 BB's records that contain solos. My Beach Boys FAQ book published a couple of years ago has a fairly detailed list of the pr-66 records that feature the Beach Boys themselves as musicians on the tracks (thanks to C-man for all of his input on that list). But that book is a tiny voice in a world of "experts" who think they know that Carl and Dennis, not to mention Al, Dave and Brian, didn't play instruments and were only singers on anything after the first couple of albums. We have a Wrecking Crew movie and a Wrecking Crew book out there now both perpetuating the myth that the Beach Boys did not play on their records. D Tedesco was confronted on Facebook by myself, Mark Linett, and AGD that he was putting forth misinformation by claiming that the Wrecking Crew played on Don't Worry Baby (which is 100% Beach Boys) and I Get Around which features Carl on guitars, Al on bass, Dennis on drums, Brian on keyboards with Ray Pohlman on a second bass, and Hal on added percussion. Tedesco ignored this, even when Linett and I insured that we'd heard multi-track masters that prove our knowledge that the Beach Boys were the musicians on these recordings. Go to any message board, Steve Hoffman, go to any youtube link for one of the Beach Boys songs with Carl as guitarist or Dennis as drummer and you'll see endless comments about Hal Blaine's drumming or Carole's bass or Tedesco or Billy Strange etc.. The general consensus, especially among musicos is that the Wrecking Crew plays on all the well-known Beach Boys stuff from the '60's. Any assumption that the problem with Dennis is somehow solved and now we need to move on to Carl is off base. Our little group of 83 fans might be wiser, but out there the thousands of experts who are still being taught the wrong things by badly researched books, articles, films, and countless untrue anecdotes and comments from the surviving WC principals and offspring of the principals continues to damage the true history of the Beach Boys, and in essence disrespects the actual great work of the Wrecking Crew. Its been less frustrating for me with allies like C-man, AGD and Boyd and Linett, but we are a minority in our knowledge of the Beach Boys as musicians, and the uphill battle we face has actually gotten steeper, even in the case of Dennis, as more people become aware of the Wrecking Crew and more are taught the prevailing myths regarding their association with the Beach Boys.

I realize this, Jon, and I'm not suggesting the issue of Dennis' credits has been resolved in any way, it's a neverending battle to correct this outside of the BB's fan/web world. But as a guitarist, I guess reading this thread struck a deeper chord with me personally (pun intended...) because I have seen and heard firsthand and thirdhand and in between many musicians who assume, as you said, that Carl after a certain point post-surf sound BB's was persona not grata on the classic records featuring classic guitar solos.

What I'm asking and saying is that I'd like to offer a few outlets to those interested and those who have actively put forth the correct info regarding Dennis to perhaps get the info out there in a more broad way about Carl. I've already said it multiple times this morning, but the Dance Dance Dance solo was a revelation for me, and I think I may have a few outlets to consider and a few ways to do it where people go for info who like me have played and enjoyed those solos for years and had just assumed it was someone other than Carl.

If I could ask for a brainstorming session or just a few exchanges of ideas and whatnot, I'd seriously like to talk about some of this stuff with those who devote their time and efforts to the history of this music, and I think some great info could be offered outside of this BB's-centric scene. It's a long shot but one I think is worth taking, and I'd like to pursue it if some of you would be interested in joining. Again, it's a long shot but there may be some ways that I think people outside of this community would find as revelatory about Carl and his guitar work as I did this morning, and there are a few outlets which I think would offer that opportunity and who may just be interested in publishing it.

Please consider, I'm serious about this.

I'm happy to have you working toward revealing and preaching the truth in any way you see fit. You are obviously a good writer and passionate researcher and any committed energy towards giving both the Wrecking Crew and the Beach Boys their just due is a welcome thing. I think you'll find it easier to convince people about Carl than Dennis just because he gets more respect as a musician in general, and deservedly, he was a great artist. Dennis is thought of as a good looking guy who didn't do much, not true, but that's the perception. I think the absolute hardest thing for people to get their mind around is that Al was often the group's studio bass player on so much of their early classic material. But we need more voices making people aware of Carl's (and all of their) instrumental contributions, so thank you for caring.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

One day, a Beach Boys studio book is in order.  Now that the Live book is coming out, it needs a studio companion.  Then we can toss our Badmans in the bin forever.

I picture a wide-ranging book, more anthology than dictionary.  We'd have a very solid credit list, of course, likely based on C-Man's material, if he's up for it--only expanded to include everything.  Then the book should also have essays on the studios, the instruments, perhaps some contributions from people who knew the Beach Boys as musicians.  I would love to include musical examples in notation, etc.  Jon could write a chapter on Dennis the drummer and keyboardist, somebody could write something about Chuck Britz, there should be lots of photos...  I've been dreaming of this kind of thing for a long time.

[c-man]

GuitarfoolCraig, assuming you're talking about some forum or outlet that has the eyes or ears of prominent players/journalists/historians, the point we should make clear from the start is how all this "misinformed history" started...while it may have been mentioned here & there in magazine articles through the years that Brian sometimes used other players like Hal Blaine, et al, and that "Pet Sounds" and "SMiLE" were largely recorded with studio players while the other guys were on the road, only adding their vocals later, I think we can trace the origin of "the Beach Boys stopped playing on their own records after the first two albums" misunderstanding to a line in David Leaf's 1978 book "The Beach Boys and the California Myth" (ironic title, no?), where he wrote "from 1963 through 1966 Brian used studio musicians on the instrumental tracks".  Whomever gave Leaf that idea may or may not have had an "agenda"...if someone like Chuck Britz said it, it would not have been meant as an absolute, but rather more along the lines of "Brian started using session players back in '63, all the way up through '66, before he put the studio in his house"...but if it was one of Brian's early friends, they might have said "it was always Hal Blaine who played the drums" (when in fact most of the sessions they were speaking of were for Brian's NON-Beach Boys productions), or one of Brian's later friends (like "Pet Sounds" and "SMiLE" later) who saw the other Beach Boys as hindering Brian's musical and personal progresson...MAYBE they saw fit to downplay the involvement of the other guys.  Now I'm sure Leaf didn't know any better at the time...but he repeated what he was told, in print, and within a few years various mags like Guitar Player started printing lists of songs that they assumed people like Tedesco, etc. played on...without REALLY knowing for sure, and certainly without the musicians themselves providing all the titles.  Knowing that the so-called WC and other studio cats did all (or most all) the playing on records by other '60s groups such as The Monkees, this got picked up as gospel by other writers, and before you know it, the myth was widespread perpetuated.  Interestingly, years later when Leaf was involved with writing liner notes for the Capitol twofer CDs and coproducing the "Thirty Years of Good Vibrations" box set, he actually got to hear the session tapes, and was able to (somewhat) set the record straight...the great UK fan mag Beach Boys STOMP printed a little blurb titled "Box Set Update" that read "Just spoken to two of Brian Wilson's biggest fans, David Leaf and Andy Paley, who wanted to remind everybody that in working on the box set and listening to the session tapes, it became clear how important each of the Beach Boys are to the sound we all love so much".  Yet, when compiling credits for the "Pet Sounds" box set three years later, it seems he just couldn't bring himself to believe that Brian would have allowed Dennis to play drums in the studio by that time, so he credited the drums on "That's Not Me" to Hal, whose name is NOT on the AFM contract and whose voice is not heard or name mentioned on the session tape...when we know it was in fact Dennis!  This seems to me to be because it was too easy for him to buy into the romantic myth that Dennis was a musical idiot until the late '60s when, out of nowhere, he found his muse and suddenly blossomed into a great musician (admittedly, Dennis was a "late bloomer, but the myth that he was allergic to the studio between '63 and '66 is just that).  


The other Craig  

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I want a Badman (but more accurate) style book JUST on Dennis....