The Smiley Smile Message Board

So the origin of this thread is simple: I want to know who played bass in the BBs cover of 'California Dreaming'. Its really, really good playing and it gives the song an edgy, modern sound that clearly differentiates it from the original.

Was it Brian? I doubt it. Al? Carl? Or a session musician? I'd love to think it was Brian, but that's not his style.

Anyways, the idea of listing great instrument-playing moments sounded interesting. So lets give this thread a try, shall we?

Cheers  8)

Another one: the slide guitar in 'Do you like worms' from TSS. Beautiful, haunting, perfection.

Again, anyone knows who played that?

Check the book in the Smile box.

Can't do that, my box is remaining closed for a while  ;)

12-string electric slide guitar: Jerry Cole (o/d A) / Carl Wilson ? (replacement to o/d A)...
says the guy who put it in the book.  Meaning, Jerry played 12-string rhythm on the basic track, then overdubbed the slide part on the same 12-string (that would be o/d A), both on October 18th.  Two months later (December 21st), the group did some vocals, and at that point the slide guitar part got replaced...Carl would be the obvious choice for that replacement part; even though he's not known to have ever played slide, the part in question is rudimentary enough that any guitarist could have done it, no problem.  But we can't say for sure, hence the "?".

Love the steel guitar in Marcella and Steamboat. Played by Ricky, I guess?

What about the  bass playing in 'California Dreaming'?

Drums and percussion on It's About Time outrock about everything else they ever recorded.

One moment on Pet Sounds that never ceases to amaze me is the tremolo on the dano (?) before the last chorus of Here Today. It's really tight. I'm assuming that was Ray Pohlman?

Whoever was doing that cello on Good Vibrations had some serious stamina going on too.

When I Grow Up (To Be A Man) - Harpsichord

Country Air - Chamberlin

Wake The World- Tuba

Feel Flows- Flute

Bass on Sloop John B from In Concert!

Tony Martin.

I'm always blown away by the intricate little guitar riffs that pop-up. Some examples are:

This whole world - underneath the ooo-ooo's before the acapella outro

When a man needs a woman - verses

Sunshine - in the intro

Nope...Tony Martin, Jr.

The Banjo in Cabinessence is just the right atmospheric  touch, if not "great" virtuoso-wise.

Im just guessing that's Glenn...? 

Carol Kaye.

- the guitar and percussion at the beginning of Dennis's "You And I"

- the trumpet(s?) during the bridge of "Winter Symphony"

- the organ at the beginning of "Let Us Go On This Way"; I always sing a long with Carl..."Yeah"

- the organ during "Amusement Part U.S.A."

- the keyboard in "Good Timin"

- Jim Gordon's drumming in "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow"

- that guitar part near the end of "In The Still Of The Night"

- the organ and sax in "Sea Cruise" especially the beginning

- the twelve string in "Somewhere In Japan"

- a given...the accordions in "Wouldn't It Be Nice"

Actually, Dennis' drumming in the same song but in Knebworth 1980. That's a great dynamic, specially near the end of the last verse, takes the song from folky land to straight bad-ass rocker  >:D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6Uc_Gi7gdM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6Uc_Gi7gdM)

What about the bass in California Dreaming???? People, someone, anyone....who plays that???????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-ThPN8ZY4I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-ThPN8ZY4I)

Earl Palmer on drums, Dennis Dragon on percussion

That's Brian.

-Billy Strange's and Carl's 12 Strings on the Single Version of Help Me, Rhonda. In the new Stereo Mix from 2012 you can hear both, amazing! thanks Derry!
-Carl's 12 String Acoustic Guitar on the cover of Then I Kissed Her, the closest the Beach Boys came to country before Cotton Fields.
-Red Rhode's Pedal Steel Guitar on the Single Version of Cotton Fields.
-Hal Blaine's Orange Juice Container Percussion on God Only Knows.
-Brian's Organ playing on Gettin' Hungry.
Who could forget Paul Tanner all over the Good Vibrations Sessions, with his Electro Theremin!
-Carl and Glen on the intro of Dance, Dance, Dance with their 12 string Guitars!

I still recall how thrilled I was to learn that the instrument playing Beach Boys (plus Carrol "Cappy" Lewis on harmonica) featured on When I Grow Up... particularly Dennis's inventive drum pattern.

There's an awesome drum fill on the first (Pet Sounds era) take of Good Vibrations.  It's right after everything drops out except the flutes and the theremin, then this thunderous drum fill, then everything comes back in.

Ah okay, cheers :)

Actually, it's Jim Gordon playing the plastic orange juice containers on God Only Knows (Hal played a regular drum kit...although he did play the empty Sparklett's water jug on Caroline, No).  And, on Dance, Dance, Dance Carl played electric 12-string, but Glen played acoustic 6-string. 

Can't say for sure who it is, but I am sure it's not one of the BBs, but rather a studio gun-for-hire.  Is it the same bass as on the original BBs version from '82, or is that one of the parts replaced on the '86 remix/redo?  I haven't A/B'd them in awhile...but either way, session players were used for the '82 version, and for the '86 version they got McGuinn to add 12-string guitar, and they redid the drums if memory serves.

I thought the studio legend was that Glen made a mistake and played the 12-string line/riff wrong, but they kept the mistake and rewrote the part because Brian thought it was better?

Also - not that I'm arguing - but from a guitarist's standpoint that electric 12-string guitar solo sounds much more like Glen's style then Carl's, especially how he threw in the little Rickenbacker-centric 16th note rhythmic strumming phrase toward the end, just before the string bends. Honestly - and not to detract from Carl at all - that solo sounds more like a Glen solo from a technical-skill and feel angle then anything Carl had played on 12-string. Again, if it's Carl then I've been mistaken for the better part of three decades, but that solo not only defines a few classic "Rickenbacker licks" and sounds but also was what I thought was one of Glen's better solos...exciting as hell.

Compare Glen soloing on the Monkees' "Mary Mary" to Dance Dance Dance...the phrasing is so similar, and unlike Carl.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong, and it would blow my mind to correct the facts on this one if Carl did in fact take the solo.

I enjoy listening to the Dance, Dance, Dance sessions. One of my favorites.

Glen: (after making a couple of mistakes) "Damn it to Hell!"
Studio cat in the background: "Brian, should we call Jerry Cole?"
Glen: "What are you gonna call him?"

The vocal sessions are even funnier. And raunchier!

There are many, many instrument playing moments on Beach Boys recordings that I love. Especially when I listen to the instrumental tracks only.

One I was listening to yesterday was the live "In Concert" album from 1973. Rhonda. The bridge. The lead guitar. Maybe Blondie or Steady Eddie Carter. Just a fun lead to listen to. Sucker wails!

Thanks, C-man for the answer!

I'm just impressed with the style of bass playing in that song, so not the BBs regular approach. Its a very continuous bass line, not melodic in anyway as classic Brian lines are. But not to say is bad, in the contrary, it really makes the cover unique and contemporary.

Yes! Those and the Party! sessions are fun listening.

Mikie, do you think Glen or Carl played the guitar solo on Dance Dance Dance? I'll say again, for decades I always thought it was (and thought I heard) Glen.

Its definitely Carl. There are fingerprints in his solos and those 16th note flurrys are one of them that pops up in I Get Around, Do You Wanna Dance and some of his other early solos. David actually demonstrated to me the right hand position and quirky stroke that was unique to Carl that he developed early on. In Dance Dance Dance he really leans on that quick quirky rhythm style. I disagree that it sounds like Glen, who, as on Mary Mary was a much smoother and less nervous/chunky player. There's a Carl feel that's unmistakable and IMO Dance Dance Dance screams Carl. BTW Glen's anecdotes about his playing on BB's sessions has been proven wrong again and again by the actual session tapes. He's there on the Dance Dance Dance session, but in a support role to Carl.  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23pKKGIIPbA

I've always understood that Glen plays the acoustic lead on "Dance Dance Dance." Carl, who came up with the riff, plays the 12 string electric. But I defer to you guys on that. Carl had the 12 string Rick for the session in October, '64, right?
 

Yeah, he got it in August '64.

And, amazingly, Carl played the Dance, Dance, Dance guitar solo LIVE on the basic track...virtually unheard of, as on all the earlier sessions that I can think of, he did the solos on an overdub track (oftentimes while the group were singing the vocals...meaning, he stood at the mic with Al, Brian, and Dennis...Mike was on his own mic...with the guitar strapped on, then played the solo, then went back to singing afterwards).  All this is evident in the various session tapes.  Once or twice they might have "punched in" the guitar solo, but most of the time, he was playing it live on one of the vocal overdub tracks.  But for Dance, Dance, Dance, Carl played the electric 12-string throughout the basic track, including the solo.

This is becoming a cool thread, thanks everyone for participating  :-D

So I'm assuming Carl played the guitars in Nashville for the alternate version of "Dance, Dance, Dance" a few weeks earlier? Any session sheets available for that date at Columbia?

The chord that starts the bridge on Caroline No, which is answered by a sax. Just a phenomenal moment in the history of all music.

No AFM sheet has surfaced, and since it was considered a demo rather than a master, there probably wasn't one.  As for Carl playing guitar on the Nashville demo, I'm quite sure he did.  But Al also played guitar on both versions, 6-string electric rhythm, one of the few sessions where he played guitar instead of or in addition to bass.  The intro (on the "official" version) is played first by Ray Pohlman on 6-string Dano bass, then the others join in, including Brian on Fender bass.

Thanks, C.  :)

I personally have two musical moments which enchant me every time I hear them:

the whole backing track of 'Steamboat', the arrangements are incredible

during the fade (starting at 2.15) of 'Don't Talk (Put Your Head On My Shoulder)', when the isolated instrument (guitar?) does a small 'riff' where the last note is also struck by a vibraphone, quite a special musical moment for me...

Dennis' drum build/fill on "A Casual Look" going out of the bridge and into Mike's "And so with a smile, she walked down the aisle..."

Just brilliant!

The fade of "Please Let Me Wonder" has an almost exact same moment, struck vibraphone and all.  That's one of my fave instrumental moments.

The organ/keyboard freak-out on "Leaving This Town" from In Concert leaves me speechless every time.... The moog solo on the Holland is great too and really suits the vibe of the album.

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You're not ignorant. It's on "Capitol Punishment" and "Sea Of Tunes Unsurpassed Masters Vol. 7 - The Alternate Beach Boys Today Album Vol. 1."

Sail on Sailer - the staccato guitar riff in the verses by Carl I presume.  A perfect addition to the instrumental track.

Don't Talk - strings

Little Girl I Once Knew - brilliant use of stacked horns as pads, great bass tone, a perfect instrumental track

If I had to pick one musical moment that really strikes me more than any other, it has to be the instrumental outro in 'In the Back of My Mind'. Nothing in pop music can touch that.

Does anyone have a picture of what the plastic OJ containers that Brian used for percussion looked like? I've read about these so many times over the years but have never seen a photo and, honestly, i'm really unsure what sort of containers we're talking about here, and would love to see a photo. What did they look like? It's such an unbelievable sound. I know i read once someone, maybe Brian or Hal or another WC member, talking about how common these were during that time, how everyone drank them, and i believe (unless i'm making this up) that Hal once mentioned how you could just go out to the lounge or hallway or whatever of one of the studios (presumably Western?) and buy this orange juice from a machine (?)

Also, i seem to recall Hal once mentioning cups of some sort (i thought it was orange juice cups?), and in one of the GV sessions Brian mentions cups, how he wants to just hear, if i recall, Fender bass, piano, and the cups. What are these cups? Would this be the same as the OJ containers or something different?

Lastly, i know it's Wikipedia, but the Pet Sounds page mentiones Coca Cola cans. Is that just nonsense?

And the Sparklett's water jug would look something like this, right?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PBOnY92ML._SL500_SS500_.jpg)

There is always something to learn! So it was Carl, I stand corrected and again I'll say for decades I'd hear that solo and think it was Glen letting rip on that 12-string, the style had some of Glen's trademark riffs and rhythms yet feels like a "seat of your pants" kind of deal where it's just a burst of energy happening live.

I guess you can't assume anything about much of anything with this band...and having heard some of the session tapes but probably not as much as others had access to, and not having the amazing opportunity to have David Marks actually *demonstrate* the style  :o  in person, this has been an awesome bit of info.

The Help Me Rhonda single mix, the one where they cut the solo live during the final mixing stages...Carl again?

Awesome info all around.

Moog on studio version: Ricky Fataar
Organ on live version: Carli Muñoz

Incidentally, although the song was apparently recorded after they'd returned to the U.S. (at the Village Recorder in L.A.), it actually WAS written in Holland.

Yes, Carl on the "Rhonda" 45 solo.
Contrary to popular belief, Carl played virtually ALL the guitar solos on Beach Boys records in the '60s.  Exceptions would be the instrumentals "Summer Means New Love" (Tommy Tedesco) and "Pet Sounds" (Billy Strange), and of course "Bluebirds" (Eddie Carter...probably also Eddie on "All I Want To Do", as the tone is pretty similar).  Right now I can't think of any other BBs guitar solos from the '60s that weren't Carl. 

Awesome, thanks! Again, another one I always thought was Glen, and it's not like I just started looking into this kind of stuff either... ;D

Weren't Sparklett water jugs glass?  There's Dennis' famous story of how he dropped one, jumped up, and landed squarely on the broken glass, thus severing tendons in his foot.  This was mid-'70s.  As for the orange juice cups...on the "GOK" session, Jim Gordon starts out playing bongos with sticks, but Brian has him switch to the cups by the time of the final take.  On the first "GV" session (the one that produced the verses for the master edit), the exact opposite occured...Frankie Capp started out on the cups, but Brian has him switch to playing the bongos (again with sticks) for the final take. 

Great question, actually one I've wanted to know as well.

For what it's worth, when I was a little kid in the 70's my parents would buy me these little drink containers which all came from the local dairy, so the milks and the orange juices and the orange drinks and whatnot would all come in these waxed cardboard containers, like a miniature milk carton (see that Blur video...). And others were cardboard but had a little cut-out thing that you could punch a straw into. These were the standard way of buying drinks on the go like this at least in the Philly area not too far after '66, if a decade is not too far off.

Then there were these little plastic barrels called "Little Hugs", which you'd peel the foil lid off the top and drink the juice. I've actually "drummed" on empties of those as a kid, I remember...they're more percussive than the cardboard. :)

The frustrating thing is that each dairy selling this stuff - and I'm assuming that's how it was in LA in '66, that a dairy would be stocking the milk and juice vending machines - probably used a different carton supplier, so unless Hal Blaine kept one somewhere as a reminder, the cartons or containers at the studio in March '66 may not have been the vendors they were using in July '66.

Interesting question.

Beat me to it...as far as I know, I thought in the mid 60's office and workplace water containers were made of heavy glass. The lighter plastic ones, which ironically it sounds more like Hal is hitting on the recording, I didn't think came around until later.

The vending machines for the juice, rather than containers, could have been the ones where the empty cup drops down and the juice coffee or milk fills it up. So the cup may have been nothing more than...a cup!

I know its an acquired taste, but  I sincerely think 'Matchpoint' is an amazing song. From what I know/read the band recorded this on their own (I believe mostly Al & Brian played instruments, nor Dennis nor Carl were actively involved in those sessions).

If the above holds true, Al did most of the guitar work on this song. And IMO its one of his best guitar playing moments! The whole song has such a natural flow to it, the guitar just goes along. It doesnt drive the song, its not all-over it. There's no crazy solos, but just a cool, jazzy layer that follows Brian's amazing vocals.

The open chords at the end of the song are genius. Beautiful. Great playing, Al.

The opening sound on Caroline No is...glass??  :o

Aye, there's the rub...I hear a felt-tipped drum mallet hitting on plastic too, but the fact that I'm almost sure most if not all water jugs that you'd find on top of water coolers in the mid 60's were made of heavy glass. Into the 80's, the water suppliers around here that were delivering spring water were still using glass, even the ones that would deliver the half-gallon bottles to our house each week, then picking up the empties, just like the milk man.

I tell my students all the time, "trust your ears", and damn if I don't hear a plastic bottle on the recording, too. Yet the water coolers were mostly glass jugs in '66.

Go figure!

The "drums" on "Take A Load Off Your Feet" are reportedly Brian playing an empty 5-gallon Sparkletts glass water bottle with a soft mallet.

I wanted to add something to this: The issue of Dennis being under-credited for his drum performances on the records has been at the forefront, and it's been great to see the facts laid out to give him his due credits for some classic grooves.

Yet as a guitarist, I think the even bigger injustice that needs correcting is the issue of Carl's guitar credits.

I can't remember all of the times I've read or heard respectful, knowledgeable, and known musicians and historians/writers without an agenda say that Tommy or Glen or Billy or any of the other session cats played a guitar part or solo on a BB's track when in reality it was Carl.

I was guilty of it with Dance Dance Dance, and I have no agenda and what I'd consider a pretty decent knowledge of the topic.

In one famous guitar magazine article on the Beach Boys and the Wrecking Crew guitarists, I think they even suggested if not said the session guys played what Carl actually played.

As was done with Dennis, I think this needs to be corrected. I may have a few ideas on a possibility for correcting it on a larger scale, once things settle down I may contact some folks here with a few ideas... :)

Because it is a real shame to have thousands of well-meaning and historically minded guitar players reading stuff and assuming none of what they hear as a great guitar track came from Carl, when most of it actually did, especially the solos.

No, actually, the MIU tracks were recorded with the BB's road band at the time.  It's true Al played more guitar on that album than probably any other BBs studio LP besides "Party!", but the jazzy lead guitar flourishes on "Matchpoint" are Ed Carter.

Indeed.  Back in the early or mid '90s (I think it was a '95 issue of Relix), there was a Carol Kaye interview where she said something to the effect that while Carl would occasionally play 12-string from the control booth, all the"wild" solos on those records were actually Glen Campbell or Billy Strange.  And some books (of the "Billboard Top Hits of the Rock Era" variety) started to appear where Tommy Tedesco was credited with the solo on "I Get Around".  And we all assumed that Hal took over the drumming from Dennis starting with "Surfin' USA" (the song) and "Little Deuce Coupe" (the song).  I for one took it all at face value and assumed it to be true...until I started seeing the AFM contracts (the shock I felt when seeing Dennis' name as the only drummer on the "All Dressed Up For School" contract is something I'll never forget!) and hearing the session tapes.  Tommy Tedesco even told one interviewer that he didn't remember playing any solos on their songs, only rhythm guitar, but because some book gave him credit for it, he assumed it was true.  In the case of players like Tedesco, we gotta remember they played MANY, MANY sessions, sometimes multiple sessions in one day, for a lot of years...including Brian's non-BBs productions (for the Honeys and others).  I'm sure in many or most cases they weren't told anything other than "It's a Brian Wilson session", so they wouldn't know (in many cases, at least), or even remember, if the track they were doing was destined for the BBs or someone else.  AND, from what I've read, many of them weren't even into "teenage pop" music, and therefore probably didn't listen to those types of radio stations (Carol is a noted exception).  Bill Pitman, for instance, loathed rock 'n' roll, and listed to jazz pretty much exclusively.  So it's not as though all of these guys would hear the song on the radio & remember playing on it, and remember it years later for that fact.  The AFM contracts and session tapes (especially when the two are matched up) paint a much more accurate picture.

100% agree. On the flip-side, sometimes it seems a finger of accusation gets pointed at some of these musicians too, and many are not the ones with an agenda or those trying to collect credits they didn't earn. What you said is the case most often: They wouldn't know, and the session world was a great paying gig, but it did resemble an assembly line process where these musicians would set up and might play three of four sessions each day ranging from a toy jingle to a demo for some production house to a Brian Wilson session...it was, really, an assembly line of music, albeit a highly paid one.

But short of session tapes and sheets, and even those sometimes don't tell the whole story, they don't remember as much as we might like them to...

Tommy Tedesco knew this years before the Funk Brothers-Wrecking Crew historical revival became a mainstream thing. He had a big sense of humor, and from the clinics and stuff I've seen on video, his stories were as useful if not moreso than the actual guitar concepts he'd cover!

At one of these, Tommy said he loves going to these clinics and conventions because people come up to him thanking and praising him for guitar parts he didn't even know he played! Peter Gunn, the Mancini soundtrack is a great example. Many folks assumed for whatever reason that Tommy played the famous intro and he and Barney Kessel played most of the guitar parts on the tunes. I think Tommy may have been seen miming in an episode of the show, but the majority of that soundtrack was Bob Bain, who was easily in the top 3 guitarists in Hollywood, if not first call. One of the best. Yet, many think Peter Gunn and think it was Tommy or Barney, for whatever reasons.

So what Tommy began doing was putting actual session sheets, lead sheets and film/TV cues, plus stories and anecdotes and instrument lists for familiar sessions he did play into Guitar Player magazine, in his monthly column. I loved that column, I miss it dearly and have for 20 years or however long it's been since it ended. That column, if anything, sparked an interest in my learning to more seriously read and write music, and getting into Tommy's unique way he'd "cheat" on any number of exotic instruments by tuning them like a guitar and playing whatever notes were put in front of him.

So Tommy for one was aware that folks were thinking he played on such-and-such song, and praising him for it in person, and he admits he just didn't remember all of it. But what he did have, and knew about, he'd share with audiences or the Guitar Player readers when his column was active. Damn, I miss that column and wish they'd reprint his full run.

I cannot, ever, point a finger at him for getting credit for something that wasn't his part, and I know there are exceptions but I think most of these players on that "assembly line" in 1960's LA were the same way.

But getting credit back to Carl where it belongs is something I think we can do, and I'd like to take it further once things stabilize a bit more.

And the "percussive" rustling gravel sounds are Brian on the roof shuffling his feet.

I really think the assumption Hal Blaine replaced Dennis on nearly all the Beach Boys studio work is far more prevalent than what is generally assumed regarding Carl. But Carl is highly under-credited as well, both because he played on even more things than Dennis, and because he was the soloist on the vast majority of pre-66 BB's records that contain solos. My Beach Boys FAQ book published a couple of years ago has a fairly detailed list of the pr-66 records that feature the Beach Boys themselves as musicians on the tracks (thanks to C-man for all of his input on that list). But that book is a tiny voice in a world of "experts" who think they know that Carl and Dennis, not to mention Al, Dave and Brian, didn't play instruments and were only singers on anything after the first couple of albums. We have a Wrecking Crew movie and a Wrecking Crew book out there now both perpetuating the myth that the Beach Boys did not play on their records. D Tedesco was confronted on Facebook by myself, Mark Linett, and AGD that he was putting forth misinformation by claiming that the Wrecking Crew played on Don't Worry Baby (which is 100% Beach Boys) and I Get Around which features Carl on guitars, Al on bass, Dennis on drums, Brian on keyboards with Ray Pohlman on a second bass, and Hal on added percussion. Tedesco ignored this, even when Linett and I insured that we'd heard multi-track tapes that prove our knowledge that the Beach Boys were the musicians on these recordings. Go to any message board, Steve Hoffman, go to any youtube link for one of the Beach Boys songs with Carl as guitarist or Dennis as drummer and you'll see endless comments about Hal Blaine's drumming or Carole's bass or Tedesco or Billy Strange etc.. The general consensus, especially among musicos is that the Wrecking Crew plays on all the well-known Beach Boys stuff from the '60's. Any assumption that the problem with Dennis is somehow solved and now we need to move on to Carl is off base. Our little group of 83 fans might be wiser, but out there the thousands of experts who are still being taught the wrong things by badly researched books, articles, films, and countless untrue anecdotes and comments from the surviving WC principals and offspring of the principals continues to damage the true history of the Beach Boys, and in essence disrespects the actual great work of the Wrecking Crew. Its been less frustrating for me with allies like C-man, AGD and Boyd and Linett, but we are a minority in our knowledge of the Beach Boys as musicians, and the uphill battle we face has actually gotten steeper, even in the case of Dennis, as more people become aware of the Wrecking Crew and more are taught the prevailing myths regarding their association with the Beach Boys.

I've been wondering about this lately as well.

Too bad all of our consumer products these days are made out of thin plastic -- terrible tone !

Just lost my damn post. Briefly, the Sparkletts and milk and orange juice containers were glass back then. I have a 5 gallon plastic Alhambra container in my kitchen right now and can come close to simulating that hollow sound on Caroline No. I'm just not so sure you can simulate that same sound on a glass container, which was prevalent back in the 60's. I don't have a glass one to try, but it just seems to me.....I mean, the cap has to be removed for starters to give it that deep percussive sound......and the mic placed strategically up to the spout.....and the mallet has to hit just so.....

I dunno.

I realize this, Jon, and I'm not suggesting the issue of Dennis' credits has been resolved in any way, it's a neverending battle to correct this outside of the BB's fan/web world. But as a guitarist, I guess reading this thread struck a deeper chord with me personally (pun intended...) because I have seen and heard firsthand and thirdhand and in between many musicians who assume, as you said, that Carl after a certain point post-surf sound BB's was persona not grata on the classic records featuring classic guitar solos.

What I'm asking and saying is that I'd like to offer a few outlets to those interested and those who have actively put forth the correct info regarding Dennis to perhaps get the info out there in a more broad way about Carl. I've already said it multiple times this morning, but the Dance Dance Dance solo was a revelation for me, and I think I may have a few outlets to consider and a few ways to do it where people go for info who like me have played and enjoyed those solos for years and had just assumed it was someone other than Carl.

If I could ask for a brainstorming session or just a few exchanges of ideas and whatnot, I'd seriously like to talk about some of this stuff with those who devote their time and efforts to the history of this music, and I think some great info could be offered outside of this BB's-centric scene. It's a long shot but one I think is worth taking, and I'd like to pursue it if some of you would be interested in joining. Again, it's a long shot but there may be some ways that I think people outside of this community would find as revelatory about Carl and his guitar work as I did this morning, and there are a few outlets which I think would offer that opportunity and who may just be interested in publishing it.

Please consider, I'm serious about this.

I'm happy to have you working toward revealing and preaching the truth in any way you see fit. You are obviously a good writer and passionate researcher and any committed energy towards giving both the Wrecking Crew and the Beach Boys their just due is a welcome thing. I think you'll find it easier to convince people about Carl than Dennis just because he gets more respect as a musician in general, and deservedly, he was a great artist. Dennis is thought of as a good looking guy who didn't do much, not true, but that's the perception. I think the absolute hardest thing for people to get their mind around is that Al was often the group's studio bass player on so much of their early classic material. But we need more voices making people aware of Carl's (and all of their) instrumental contributions, so thank you for caring.

One day, a Beach Boys studio book is in order.  Now that the Live book is coming out, it needs a studio companion.  Then we can toss our Badmans in the bin forever.

I picture a wide-ranging book, more anthology than dictionary.  We'd have a very solid credit list, of course, likely based on C-Man's material, if he's up for it--only expanded to include everything.  Then the book should also have essays on the studios, the instruments, perhaps some contributions from people who knew the Beach Boys as musicians.  I would love to include musical examples in notation, etc.  Jon could write a chapter on Dennis the drummer and keyboardist, somebody could write something about Chuck Britz, there should be lots of photos...  I've been dreaming of this kind of thing for a long time.

GuitarfoolCraig, assuming you're talking about some forum or outlet that has the eyes or ears of prominent players/journalists/historians, the point we should make clear from the start is how all this "misinformed history" started...while it may have been mentioned here & there in magazine articles through the years that Brian sometimes used other players like Hal Blaine, et al, and that "Pet Sounds" and "SMiLE" were largely recorded with studio players while the other guys were on the road, only adding their vocals later, I think we can trace the origin of "the Beach Boys stopped playing on their own records after the first two albums" misunderstanding to a line in David Leaf's 1978 book "The Beach Boys and the California Myth" (ironic title, no?), where he wrote "from 1963 through 1966 Brian used studio musicians on the instrumental tracks".  Whomever gave Leaf that idea may or may not have had an "agenda"...if someone like Chuck Britz said it, it would not have been meant as an absolute, but rather more along the lines of "Brian started using session players back in '63, all the way up through '66, before he put the studio in his house"...but if it was one of Brian's early friends, they might have said "it was always Hal Blaine who played the drums" (when in fact most of the sessions they were speaking of were for Brian's NON-Beach Boys productions), or one of Brian's later friends (like "Pet Sounds" and "SMiLE" later) who saw the other Beach Boys as hindering Brian's musical and personal progresson...MAYBE they saw fit to downplay the involvement of the other guys.  Now I'm sure Leaf didn't know any better at the time...but he repeated what he was told, in print, and within a few years various mags like Guitar Player started printing lists of songs that they assumed people like Tedesco, etc. played on...without REALLY knowing for sure, and certainly without the musicians themselves providing all the titles.  Knowing that the so-called WC and other studio cats did all (or most all) the playing on records by other '60s groups such as The Monkees, this got picked up as gospel by other writers, and before you know it, the myth was widespread perpetuated.  Interestingly, years later when Leaf was involved with writing liner notes for the Capitol twofer CDs and coproducing the "Thirty Years of Good Vibrations" box set, he actually got to hear the session tapes, and was able to (somewhat) set the record straight...the great UK fan mag Beach Boys STOMP printed a little blurb titled "Box Set Update" that read "Just spoken to two of Brian Wilson's biggest fans, David Leaf and Andy Paley, who wanted to remind everybody that in working on the box set and listening to the session tapes, it became clear how important each of the Beach Boys are to the sound we all love so much".  Yet, when compiling credits for the "Pet Sounds" box set three years later, it seems he just couldn't bring himself to believe that Brian would have allowed Dennis to play drums in the studio by that time, so he credited the drums on "That's Not Me" to Hal, whose name is NOT on the AFM contract and whose voice is not heard or name mentioned on the session tape...when we know it was in fact Dennis!  This seems to me to be because it was too easy for him to buy into the romantic myth that Dennis was a musical idiot until the late '60s when, out of nowhere, he found his muse and suddenly blossomed into a great musician (admittedly, Dennis was a "late bloomer, but the myth that he was allergic to the studio between '63 and '66 is just that).  


The other Craig  :)

I want a Badman (but more accurate) style book JUST on Dennis....

Except that that's a myth, too. The Wrecking Crew played on comparatively few Monkees tracks, every Monkees album had at least some Monkee instrumental involvement, and looking at their hit singles they break down as follows:
Last Train To Clarksville/Take A Giant Step -- both sides played by The Candy Store Prophets, Boyce & Hart's band, plus a couple of extra session musicians
I'm A Believer/Not Your Stepping Stone -- A-side by unknown New York session players, B-side by the Candy Store Prophets
A Little Bit Me/The Girl I Knew Somewhere -- A-side by unknown New York session players, B-side all instruments by the Monkees except bass by Chip Douglas
Alternate Title/Forget That Girl -- all instruments by the Monkees except bass
Pleasant Valley Sunday/Words -- instruments by Tork, Jones and Nesmith plus Chip Douglas (bass) and Eddie Hoh (drums)
Daydream Believer/Goin' Down -- instruments by Tork, Jones ,Nesmith, Douglas and Hoh (plus horn section on the B-side)
Valleri/Tapioca Tundra -- A-side by the Candy Store Prophets, B-side almost all instruments except drums Nesmith

Great post...and true.

I don’t know if these

(http://blog.bombevi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/img00046-300x225.jpg)

are the same Little Hugs, and they’re probably different today than they were then anyway, but this got me wondering if maybe the orange juice containers were sort of like (bigger) Yoplait yogurt cups, which are a thicker plastic, and produce much more of that clip clop sound:

(http://rossotron.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/yoplait.jpg)

I feel like the topics of the cups/OJ containers and the water jug would be an easy question to ask several possible people who were around then. It’s one of those near legendary details of Brian’s heyday productions. I mean, you always hear about these things, so surely it’s of enough interest to ask around to some relevant people who would definitely know.

Thanks for the clarification.

I think I was just trying hard to validate Al as a guitar player. He's not the first person I reference as my guitar hero (that's actually Johnny Marr) but anyways, I think he has great tempo, feeling and gave a lot of color to the BBs live sound.

You can actually see that when Mike is introducing the band before 'Little Deuce Coupe', in the Lost Concert film. When its gets to Al, he sounds great (very simple, yet decisive in getting the rock vibe going): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wklo_5AOLI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wklo_5AOLI)

Susi Cincinnati features some great Al guitar work

Cool...another myth smashed!  We're on a roll now.

Not a big fan of that song, but you're right, he does a god job there. Thanks  :)

The bass playing in Wind Chimes.

Drums on "The Private Life..." There's a high hat fill that is awesome during one of the latter choruses.

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Monicker, those are indeed the "Little Hug" barrel drinks from when I was a kid - I used to turn them upside down and drum on them like bongo drums. This a few years before I started taking real drum lessons! They can be percussive sounding, and if you hit them with an eraser tip of a  pencil or something then put some echo on the sound, you may get a Pet Sounds-like effect from those empties.

The yogurt container does resemble some old-school single serve containers I have seen at antique shows and the like, where people collect old stuff from local dairies - I am in Pennsylvania, after all...But seriously, the shape is similar but the only problem is that the older ones pre-70's that I have seen were not plastic, but instead some kind of paper or cardboard. And again I'll say I have no way of knowing what LA was serving in 1966, but up into the early 80's a lot of the containers from dairies were in waxed cardboard containers or the larger sizes were still in reusable glass bottles.

A tip to pursue, which I'd gladly do if I had more time:

- Find a copy online or elsewhere of the LA Times from the week the track was recorded in '66.
- Look for the store ads - most papers transferred everything including ad inserts to microfilm, then online (where available)
- Find the name of a few dairies whose products were sold in the stores
- Look up the dairies, see if any are still active
- Contact them with the questions about the old containers they used in the 50's and 60's, if they are still somewhat big in that business they might have a company archives or historical dept. where they'd have stuff like old containers on display
- Find a collectors group online who collect dairy memorabilia. It sounds odd, but there are people who are really into this and look for items from every dairy, and have gatherings and whatnot. I'm totally serious.

That's just one avenue - I've used similar methods in other non-BB's research I have done, and sometimes what I found outside of the topic at hand would be as interesting as what I was looking for!

By all means, if anyone should pursue this and get more info, please share, I've been curious about this topic and would love to learn more!

Craig, thanks for that post! I have in mind something that I hope to pull together and send out a few messages to see what folks think of it, but my outlet for this is specific and I think might be open to such a thing and with a pretty specific and wide audience. I will be in touch soon, I promise.

I'm thinking of a way to get it out there which does not specifically have the tone of correcting anything, yet the information and material presented would be in such a way that it would be interesting, informative, fun, and in a more subliminal way correct the misinformation that many have read and believe to be the facts about certain things we know are inaccurate, yet repeated often. There is a delicate balance, I may have a way to do it.

I will be in touch, I hope this will be of interest.

I can't add anything to this other than to say it was great to see this list. As mentioned, even on the first two albums there was Mike working behind the glass as producer, and he was insisting that a guy like Peter Tork play guitar on his session(s) even if Tork was not yet in the union, and his role was not a prominent one.

And needless to say, the Monkees themselves did play most of Headquarters, a lot of Pisces Aquarius, and from the albums beyond those were involved in the productions firsthand, all except for maybe Davy Jones who wasn't as into that part of the process as he was performing.

So that killer guitar line/riff on "Pleasant Valley Sunday" is Mike Nesmith triple-tracking his Les Paul "Black Beauty" through a Vox Super Beatle amp and then through an early model UA 1176. The classic piano intro on "Daydream Believer" is played by Peter Tork. The stop-and-start quirky yet driving drumbeat on "The Girl I Knew Somewhere" is Micky Dolenz. And by all means check out the band as a self-contained, totally live entity ripping it apart in the movie Head playing "Circle Sky". Right there are two top-5 singles from 1967, a classic movie performance, and a top-40 B-side from '67 which did get airplay on AM radio that year...each of them featuring a hook or a classic part played by an actual Monkee.

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Valleri was definitely Louie Shelton, one of the coolest solos of 60's rock for sure. There was another session guitarist who I read remembered hearing that solo on the radio or TV and knowing it was Louie Shelton since he had heard Louie practicing Spanish-flavored and Flamenco speed runs on guitar...only Louie would do that, or something along those lines. Could be a myth but i thought it was a cool story. Louie played on many classic solos well into modern times, including of all things "Hello" by Lionel Richie...great solo, btw.

Eddie Hoh, we've brought him up in other Monkees discussions here. He all but disappeared for years, I still have not seen a good clear photo of him drumming from the 60's or any other era. Great drummer - "Goin Down" (the horn-heavy B-side to Daydream Believer: Mike on guitar, Chip on bass, etc.), "The Door Into Summer", and "Daily Nightly" are among my favorite "Fast Eddie" tracks...hell, he was great on every Monkees track. I think his other big credit was Al Kooper's "Super Session" with Bloomfield and Stills, correct?

It's been awhile since I've heard the session, and I love Al's playing so this is not to denigrate it, but I seem to remember it taking quite a few tries for him to nail the intro--mainly because, and again this is by memory, he's not taking it very seriously.  Lots of levity.

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I love the bass during the organ solo on Wild Honey. Funky as hell groove.

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bass and tambourine on The Girl I Knew Somewhere by John London

You're right, of course.


That's really weird, actually -- I was doing those credits from memory, but I'm pretty certain that Sandoval says in his book that there's no existing union documentation for those sessions (and I can't find my copy of Sandoval right now to check). The Monkees Sessionography website, which is usually pretty good, says "Carol Kaye played Fender bass on this track and possibly others from these New York sessions." (Nonsense, of course, but they're taking her word for it in the absence of other evidence) "Unfortunately, complete documentation for these sessions has not been located."

When I was looking into this stuff about 18 months ago, for the book I did on the Monkees' music, as best I could discover those sessions *were* genuinely anonymous. I wonder if some new documentation has turned up. Looks like Wikipedia has the same credits, now, for A Little Bit Me as well.

You're absolutely right. My mistake -- I was doing it from memory, and Chip Douglas played bass on so many of those tracks around that time.

Organ solo Leaving This Town - In Concert album.

One of the most impressive Hammond solos I have ever heard, to be honest.

Yes! And the organ on "Let The Wind Blow" from same album. Does anybody know who performed these?

If I remember rightly, Billy Hinsche did the Leaving This Town solo -- I *think* you can even hear someone shouting "Billy Hinsche!" during it. No idea about Let The Wind Blow.

I always thought the organ solo on Leaving this Town live was Carli Munoz. I could be wrong. Just doesn't seem like Billy's style to me. Regardless, it's quite good.

I think you're right, thinking about it -- it does sound more like Munoz's playing. But I remember about ten or fifteen years ago on the old cabinessence.com message board, someone asked Billy about it and he said it was him... possibly he misremembered.

I think it's Billy doing the keyboard solo on Help Me Rhonda on the live album, which is also quite good.

There's even a website dedicated to this moment :D

http://willcmusic.com/carli-munoz-and-the-organ-solo-that-shook-the-earth/

Does this include all the instrumentals on Surfin' USA?  I always presumed they were Carl, and figured that was pretty good for a teen-ager, why couldn't I play Honkey Tonk and Miserlou like that myself, after all I was a teen-ager, too, but then later when the whole business about studio musicians and wrecking crews and the allegations that the band didn't really play anything in the studio from the beginning, blah, blah, blah, I began to wonder (and wanted to think "Hah! He wasn't that much better than me after all" - what a joke). Then when the stories began to be torn down by facts, I was back to what I always had believed in the 60's - that was Carl.  Correct?

Yes, correct:  Carl.

I recently contacted the NYC chapter of the AFM union, hoping they could find session contracts for the string overdub session on the BBs' "20/20" tunes (which were arranged/conducted by Van McCoy), but I was told "I checked with our recording department and their records do not go back that far" (unlike the L.A. branch, which has provided me with a TON of scans from their archive, for my research purposes).  Maybe the record company still has their copy on file, but in the Monkees' case, if they did, I would think that would be known by now.

One name which I've always suspected was involved in those Don Kirshner-led Monkees sessions, the "anonymous" ones, was guitarist Al Gorgoni. He was one of Kirshner's go-to guitarists, starting out not as first call for the "big" sessions but slogging it out playing demos for all of Kirshner's hired gun songwriters.

As happens, when those demos turned into hits, a guitarist like Al Gorgoni would be booked for the big session. So for years I wondered who was playing on Neil Diamond's classic 60's records like "Solitary Man" and basically all of that crop of hits, "Sugar Sugar", go down the list of Donny Kirshner's successful hit records in the 60's, and you'll see names like Al Gorgoni, Vinnie Bell, Hugh McCracken, etc.

It is almost neglectful how little attention is paid to the New York version of the Wrecking Crew...there just isn't much info posted about them, and they do largely remain anonymous.

*However*

The claim for I'm A Believer has gone pretty solidly to Al Gorgoni on guitar, and I had always suspected that group of East Coast, New York session players who played nearly all of those classic Neil Diamond singles would naturally be among those musicians hired to play when Kirshner recorded some of Diamond's songs for The Monkees.

And with Al Gorgoni, at least on I'm A Believer, that's the case. I don't know for sure but I'm betting tracks like "Little Bit Me", "Love To Love", etc were the same guys. Those records, especially "Little Bit Me" share that same "Cherry Cherry" groove and sheen, i think due to the musicians who played it.

Google Al's name, you'll get a great starting point on who these guys were in the new York scene and how many classic singles they played on.

Smiley Smile was the BBs themselves on all instruments, except for Chuck Bergofer on some standup bass (not counting GV and H&V, of course).  Wild Honey was mostly the BBs, with Ron Brown doing some bass, plus horn & string players here or there.  Maybe Hal on drums for Darlin', but not sure.  For Friends, 20/20 and Sunflower, they reverted back to using hired guns for a lot of the instrumentation, but still did a fair amount themselves (such as on Do It Again).  The Surf's Up album was mostly the guys with Daryl.  In Carol Kaye's case though, I don't think she ever did a BBs session after SMiLE...her name certainly isn't on any of the post-SMiLE union contracts (but Ray Pohlman's sure is), and I think she said somewhere that she never did a session at Brian's Bellagio studio.  She DID say that the rhythm section on "I Was Made To Love Her" (cut at Heider's) was her and Hal (and I think she named the location as Western), but Bruce Johnston told me that the bass player on that one was Ron Brown (he told me that totally unprompted), and I believe him.  There is a contract for that session, but it just has the BB's names.  Carol DID eventually play another session for Brian, on "Everything I Need" (the BW/Tony Asher mid-'90s song Brian and Joe produced for Carnie & Wendy).

And of all those NY guitarists, I'd say the most familiar names were Al Caiola, Vinnie Bell, and Hugh McCracken, and I know I'm leaving some out but I'm working on my memory only...

Vinnie Bell was among the first-call best in town, he was actually a brand name because of his association with Danelectro guitars and his name being used (and he also helped develop it) on the Coral Electric Sitar, which was ubiquitous on singles in the late 60's. Among them, that's Vinnie playing electric sitar on "Cry Like A Baby", I believe.

Al Caiola was more in the easy listening/space age pop bag, recording albums under his own name for Command records, and also being part of the musicians that played all those Enoch Light "Persuasive Percussion" and "Provocative Provocative Percussion" records. I'm leaving out a lot of credits there, I know he also had a somewhat big hit with "The Magnificent Seven".

Hugh McCracken was more of the rock guy, he's all over McCartney's "Ram" album, and that's him letting rip on those weird-ass solos on "Too Many People". He was also the "reader" guitarist who played with the "by ear" guitarist Earl Slick for all of Lennon's 1980 sessions with Jack Douglas. Awesome player.

A lot of hit records we all know and hear all the time feature these guys, it's definitely worth searching a few names like those above because they get overshadowed by the LA crew, yet had dozens of hits coming out of New York and the whole Brill Building scene, among others.

Don't want to be rude or anything, but what's the deal with 'The Monkeys' in this and other BBs threads?

I personally don't like them, find them boring and overall uninteresting - compared to all the good stuff happening back in the 60s. Why are we comparing them to the band that produced the best record in history? To the band led by an acknowledged musical genius and a TM master Jedi?

If comparisons are made, for whatever reason, please use top names. Not the dull Monkeys.

And sorry, don't mean to offend anyone, but its already difficult enough defending the Boys when Mike & Bruce play Seaworld *sigh*

It really is a shame nobody ever did a great interview with Ray Pohlman, who I feel like next to Hal, was this sort of studio father-figure to Brian.  When the BB started augmenting themselves with studio musicians, it was Hal and Ray, and Ray was still there in the 70s cutting tracks for Brian.  He got all of the more interesting bass lines on Pet Sounds.  He was gone way too soon.

I know McCracken was on about half of "Ram", with Dave Spinozza on the other half...but are you sure about the weird-ass "Too Many People" solos?  To me, they sound more like McPaul himself...compare to the solos on "Taxman" and "Good Morning Good Morning" for instance.

Yes, I certainly can't see any possible reason whatsoever to draw Beach Boys parallels with the Monkees. After all, the Beach Boys have nothing in common with a band who, for a few years in the mid-60s, were the most popular American band of the time, the Beatles' only serious competition, who after a string of light pop hits started making strange, experimental music that lost them nearly all their fanbase overnight, who recorded in LA using many of the best session musicians but who played on far more of their own records than they're given credit for, who, if they're given credit at all by critics, tend only to get it for one album even though their work after that was far better, who have a member named Michael whose son Christian performs with him, whose work between 1967 and 1970 is pretty much ignored but utterly spectacular, whose 1980s and 1990s work is horrible, who have had remasters produced by Andrew Sandoval, whose lead singer is bald but thinks if he wears a hat no-one will realise this, and who had a reunion tour last year, featuring the eccentric genius and most talented member of the band who hadn't played live with them since the mid-90s, and who hadn't played much with them at all since the 1960s -- a reunion tour that was hugely successful, though many fans wished that the percussion-playing sex symbol of the band, whose name started with D, was still alive to join in, though he was represented by video footage.

Yeah, makes no sense at all for people to bring the Monkees up, does it?

Who on Earth are 'The Monkeys'??

Amen, Andrew.  Preach it, brother!  :)  Also, I might add that after the 1967 albums "Headquarters" and "Wild Honey", on which the group members themselves played most of the instruments, together AS A BAND, the next few records by both groups tended to be made more by the individual members going in and producing their own cuts, with studio players, maybe bringing the other guys in for vocals, as if they had "graduated" from their respective schools of record making (the headmasters of which were slave-driving "Stalins of the Studio"), and now the students had become masters in their own right.  The only real differences here are:  The Monkees still relied on outside writers a lot (like Goffin-King), and The Beach Boys' headmaster/Stalin was one of their own.

Very true -- though even so, the single songwriter with the most credits on Monkees albums is Nesmith, and all the other members wrote plenty of songs. Something like half their repertoire was written or co-written by band members.

Always nice to get interesting feedback from people here  :) and let me state, Andrew, that I follow your posts and like your overall take on many aspects of the BBs history.

But I have to disagree on the Monkeys (Monkees, whatever) comparison. Some quick arguments:

• None of their albums has been voted the best or 2nd best in history
• None of their members has been honored as much as Brian (Grammys, Kennedy awards
• Haven't heard anyone lately quoting them as a definitive musical influence
• None of their songs has a fifth of the complexity of Brian's arrangements on Today (side B), Pet Sounds, GVs or Smile
• Their history is boring and not as soap-opera hypnotizing as the BBs
• None of their members can levitate or give a Rock & Roll Hall of Fame speech as cool as Mike
• Never heard Paul McCartney mentioning a Monkey's song as a personal fav
• Never heard many successful covers of their songs, maybe except for Smash Mouth - but they sucked anyways; unlike all the David Lee Roths, Kathy Perrys, Taylor Swifts out there
• Never seen/heard Zooey Deschannel singing anything from them - ok, I'm love with her, this is not a real argument
• I'm certain they didnt sell half of what the Boys sold
• Wonder how many people would actually go to see a Monkeys/Monkees/Primates reunion tour - if ever there's one; and what kind of media hype would it get

Got many, many more reasons but have to go back to work. Debate is open, Mr. Andrew, looking forward to your reply  ;)

<<Wonder how many people would actually go to see a Monkeys/Monkees/Primates reunion tour - if ever there's one; and what kind of media hype would it get>>

Seriously?  Where were you in '86?  OK, so it was close to 30 years ago, but their arena tour of that year (with 3 of the 4 Monkees) was a MAJOR media event, and LOTS of people went to see them (this after MTV played all the episodes of their TV series nonstop for days).  1997's UK tour (with 4 of the 4) was very well attended, and only slammed in the media b/c it was the BRITISH media (who slam everything).  2011's ampitheatre tour (with the same 3 of the 4 as in '86) played to packed audiences (at least the show I attended), and was excellent.  And as I'm sure Andrew will tell you, last year's mini-reunion tour (with a different 3 of the 4, sadly due to necessity) was very-well attended & received.

Dude, this sounds like a teenage girl summing up a rock encylopedia entry from 1971. Received wisdom, hot air.

The Monkees made some incredible records, you don't HAVE to like them, but I get the impression you've never even listened to them

If you judge groups by 'firsts' etc (which personally I don't)... they were amongst the first if not THE first group to do country tinged rock/pop, a precursor to Mike Nesmiths solo records. I have a feeling they were amongst the first groups to use a moog on record too. I dunno. All of that's irrelevent. They were just great. I'd rather listen to one of their lps than The Beatles, any day of the week.

I

I hear what you're saying, but I heard and read (somewhere), maybe from Paul himself, that McCracken did that lead work.

Ultimately it does sound like Paul's own style, but maybe that's what Paul asked him to play, in that style?

Until I find that interview or other proof, I'll have to say I heard it was McCracken, but it does sound close to Paul's lead guitar style.  :)

Speak to Probyn Gregory some time...or half the rest of Brian's band, for that matter.


You've not actually listened to any Monkees records, have you?


Last year's Dolenz/Nesmith/Tork tour was in the top 20 tours on Pollstar at the time it was running -- http://www.monkeesconcerts.com/1/category/2012%20monkees%20tour/1.html -- despite being a deliberately low-key one (Nesmith only agreed to a very short tour). The year before's reunion tour, without Nesmith, played the same kind of venues the Beach Boys reunion tour did, and got, at least in the UK, *major* news coverage  -- far more than the Beach Boys reunion did. Tickets for the UK leg of the tour sold out within minutes.

Thank you.  My day is complete  :-D I was so let down when I was led to believe he hadn't played any of that.  Great stuff for a young picker and I always wanted to know it was really Carl.  Wish some of their songs in later years had featured more of that, but, things move on . . . . . .

And bottom line, The Monkees are about the music if we're talking about the music: You either like the songs or not, end of story.

I don't see the need to bash them since it's already been done to death so many times since 1967, and ultimately the records hold up well and a few are legitimate 60's classics that still are played and enjoyed.

And they were and still are one of my biggest influences on becoming a musician: Beatles-Monkees-Beach Boys, those three are something I really do love and enjoy in life.

So if we take it personal, or if it seems that way, that music is pretty close to the heart for some of us, and it's ok to not care for it but maybe bashing them or comparing them to whatever other artist isn't the best way to have such a discussion.

That's all.  :)

 ;D
 ;D  Love it.  That's great.

I'm all for talking Monkees in a Monkees thread. If I recall correctly this one is called "Great instrument playing in BBs recordings". I could understand if a Monkee or two or three or four played on a Beach Boys recording, but I ain't read nothing of the sort, so far. Just saying... :)

Man, I knew that Kathy Perry/Taylor Swift stuff was gonna get me into trouble...  :P

And you're right, I'm not an expert on them but the little music I've heard does not impress me. I find it boring and uninteresting COMPARED to the Beach Boys.  Maybe compared to other folky stuff from the 60s they may beok, but I couldnt care less.

This is a BBs board and we discuss here the history and in-and-outs of the greatest music ever done and the genius of Brian Wilson. So I don't need to like another group here, nor am I expected to know anything about The Monkeeys (or however you spell that awful name). If I get challenged on BBs music, if I say nonsense about the band, then yes, I deserve criticism and I'd take it. But not on the Monkees, pleaaaasseeeee.

And maybe unlike you guys, I was not born liking the BBs. I got to know them, among others, because something called 'Pet Sounds' kept on appearing as the number 1 or number 2 best album ever, and that made me curious and then I got the album and everything unfolded from there. So I dont ditch music lists or album reviews right away, there's actually good information you can find in specialized magazines and books.

Actually good enough information to get me into the BBs.

You read my mind, thanks.

Problem is when you post something incredibly derogatory about one of pop music's most underrated bands of all-time and then add 'you don't want to offend anybody' I'd remind you you the Beach Boys constantly get the same narrow minded assessment from people who know nothing about them. To say the Monkees never did anything complex is just plain wrong, the Porpoise Song, As We Go Along, Listen to the Band, Shorty Blackwell etc... are some of the most beautiful and imaginative productions ever committed to vinyl. Like the Beach Boys, the Monkees catalog is DEEP...with album tracks on a string of records rendered in a higher quality than only a small handful of groups can claim. To quote one of their songs...you've got some growing to do.

For many of us here, bad words about the Monkees only remind us how many people are stupid in thinking the Beach Boys are boring and uninteresting (because if you really pay attention they are not).

Fair point, Mr. Stebbins.

I apologize if my post was offending to anyone here. My objective in this board is to discuss and learn about the band I love the most. I have an ever growing respect for them and get a bit sensitive when comparisons are drawn with other bands, specially because of how their current state of affairs (inner discrepancies) fuels criticism and misunderstanding (from less informed parties).

For example, how do I explain that the same band that made Good Vibrations is now playing Seaworld and singing Kokomo as the show highlight? I'd need to give a week-long, history lesson to put some context and actually endup with many, many questions myself.

For me the Monkees were not a good comparison, I felt it was undermining the value of the band. I never had them in my radar as a relevant group in the history of pop music, but now I understand people in this board appreciate them and  I can certainly respect that.

So, Mr. Stebbins, Andrew et al, it was not my intention to make a derogatory comment on this band. Thank u for your arguments, cool stuff to look into, but please lets get back to analyzing the BBs music playing greatest moments. Shall we?

P.S.
I felt happy Taylor Swift covered GOK. She did a good job and its bringing the song to a new generation. And although to some sounds like a 'teenage girl argument', youth is the future and they need to get to know the Beach Boys. Or else this board will die with us.

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wtf? The only reason people are still talking about them, is because you couldn't let the perfectly in context side mention of them pass without a lengthy and uninformed diss.

 :lol

I always forget this forum is full of idiots! More fool me...

.

Don't agree with you, dude, no one in this board is stupid.

Dennis' drums on "I'm So Young" deserve honorable mention!

Exactly. It's *exactly* the same dismissal, and for the same reasons, and by the same people, as the dismissal of the Beach Boys as "Oh, that band that did Barbara Ann and Kokomo".

And that's one very big reason the Monkees do come up in these discussions -- they've faced much the same image problems and dismissal of their abilities as musicians, and the same claims that session musicians did work they did, right down to Carol Kaye claiming credit for records she never played on.

We just got done going over this name calling crap in the sandbox. Just for the record, I just don't like when threads get hijacked. I have no problem talking about another band if it relates. So, I'll ask you since you posted your smart-ass remark; who in the Monkees played great on a Beach Boys recording?

That's Dennis drumming? Its really good stuff, actually the whole song is amazing. I specially love the coda - up there with their best PS-Smile stuff.

Nice one  ;)

It is indeed Dennis, so is When I Grow Up, Dance Dance Dance, and I think Please Let Me Wonder?

You owe it to yourself to seek out the Unsurpassed Masters: Today session stuff....!

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Do It Again was on Friends at one time?  Oh, you mean the Friends-20/20 twofer CD...   ;)
Seriously, on the Friends LP, Norm Jeffries plays all the drums on Side One (with Jim Gordon helping out on percussion for "Passing By").
On Side Two, it's one of the BBs (probably Dennis, but who knows, maybe Carl) playing congas on "Ana Lee The Healer", then it's Jim Gordon for "Little Bird" and "Transcendental Meditation" and Gene Pello for "Busy Doin' Nothin'".  Not sure who plays bongos on "Diamond Head", possibly Brian or one of the track's other composers, since they're the only ones listed on the AFM contract.

Dude, I invite you to check out my website, where I've posted essays on the Today! and Summer Days albums (and associated outtakes), plus Dennis' solo stuff.  I've been able to identify the musicians on nearly every cut from AFM contracts & session tapes.  I think you'll dig it.
www.beachboysarchives.com

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cool c-man, will certainly do

The good news is that you initiated what has turned into a great thread.

.

Just like your books, VERY NICELY said Jon!

On BB's Today Dennis plays drums on When I Grow Up, I'm So Young, Dance Dance Dance and... She Knows Me Too Well.

Jon, is it Dennis on the main part of Do It Again? .... I know John Guerin came in do do more drums and assorted percussion, but who's playing that main 4x4 beat that opens the track and really grooves?

I would defer to C-man's ears on this one, but it has always been my understanding that Guerin is the main drum sound you hear on the finished track, while Dennis' residual drums on the pre-overdubbed track are less prominent although you can definitely hear him at various points in the mix. With that in mind I'd expect that you are hearing Guerin on the intro. Craig? Please confirm or enlighten.

A couple of tracks that don't get mentioned often regarding Dennis, but that feature his drumming in a good way are I Can Hear Music and Al's Cottonfields.

So is the "early version" included on Endless Harmony with the ride cymbal going the whole time, the basic track that Guerin played over?

When you say Cottonfields, do you mean the 20/20 version of the later "AL" version? The drumming is exceptional on both.

Lets wait for C-man to give us his assessment of Do It Again. Al told me that Dennis plays on his version of Cottonfields and that he helped him arrange it. Not sure who the drummer is on Brian's version...but its a similar feel in places.

Are you planning to upload more of these terrific essays? The Beach Boys' Wikipedia article is accessed around 1.3 million times a year on average so to have quick citable facts like "Dennis played on approximately 75% of the drum tracks between 1962-1965" using your essays as a primary source would be a fantastic start in dispelling the myth that the boys didn't play on a lot of their material.

Yep, you got it...Dennis on the basic track (you can hear where he enters after Mike sings the first few words), Guerin on the prominent intro, as well as tambourine & wood blocks.

Hal Blaine on the "Brian" 20/20 version, Dennis on the "Al" single version.

Wow...that's a great opportunity for fans to A/B the drumming of Hal and Dennis.

One thing I always wondered was why Al didn't play bass in concert more, it seems like they were always looking for that bass player. The bass in the 70s was always passed back and forth. I am guessing because he didn't want to play bass and sing , which is very hard.

I love the trashy loose h-hat in the Al Version and just that driving, kick-heavy beat. Dennis' weird build/fill going into "When I was a little bitty baby" is just awesome.

Could you imagine how many lyrics he'd forget then?
 ;D

In Pet Sounds, whoever is doing that crazy sounding percussion when everything drops out has my respect.

That's called a guiro. Some great Latin percussion in that track, yes.

I think he might be talking about the bongos or bongo-like drums that are on one of the overdubs.  Which though careful listening, Donny discovered are actually run through a leslie speaker.

Really? Is there a track time, an exact point where I could hear that? (short of searching the thread where this info appeared...)

I hear Leslie lead guitar(s) on the track, overdubbed...that's it. If the drums were Leslied too, that would mean they'd have to do a form of re-amping the track, and opening up a new track to add that to it...and on paper that would seem outside the scope and availability of what they had in '65. Or what Chuck Britz was doing in general in 1965...unless I'm wrong on that, those productions didn't call for re-amping much of anything, the guitars were either direct into the board, through an amp and mic'ed, or through the Leslie which is also an amp.

But if it's on the track(s) somewhere, I naturally defer to that!  :)

Both played by Bruce Johnston, according to him.  Brian also told me the organ solo on "Wild Honey" is Bruce.  But the organ on "Passing By" is Brian (so he told me).

Yes, great tone and playing on Baxter's "Sping Vacation" solo.
As for "what kind of organ dues Larry Knechtel play on California Girls"...he doesn't.  He's not even on the track (per the AFM contract and per no mention of him on the session tape).  That's Al de Lory playing the organ (almost certainly a Hammond B-3, I would think - unless someone knows differently) on "California Girls" (Leon Russell is on piano for that tune).  And yes, there are indeed mallets (a vibraphone, played by Frank Capp).  But your question brings up an interesting point:  for the great organ parts on Brian's mid-'60s productions, you would think he would have had a "go-to" guy that he relied on, but "Cal Girls" is de Lory, "Amusement Parks USA" is Leon, the verses of "Good Vibes" are Knechtel (and Mike Melvoin on other, unsued "GV" sessions), and I believe "The Little Girl I Once Knew" is Don Randi.

There was a bounce down for Pet Sounds.  It's an unusual track anyway, because the basic track is just the percussion and the James Bond guitar, and then they seem to have done assembly line style overdubs, bounced that down to one track of a new 4 track, added the guitar overdubs and then indeed, those "bongos" got their own track.  I figure they already had the leslie out for the guitar, and some genius had the idea to do the bongos through it.  It's very subtle, but definitely there.

Interesting - doesn't it seem Brian's choice of musicians was more scattershot in 64-65 than it would be on, say, Pet Sounds when it seems like there was more of a smaller core group he'd call? Or maybe it was just availability of these players, and as Brian's stature grew throughout 65 and 66, so did his clout and his ability to get guys on demand as he had more hit records.

It's also a factor that the musicians who were being called would turn down sessions too, whether the producer asked for them specifically or not, or they just weren't available that day.

Knectel plays the Hammond B3 through a Leslie speaker on Good Vibrations, right?  One handed. Ebm, Db, Abm, Bb.

.........And the B3 with two hands on "Wouldn't It Be Nice" and "God Only Knows".

Randi says he played keys on Good Vibrations too. Knectel on the released and Randi/Melvoin on the alternates?

Definitely Hammond through Leslie, but on the chords I hear and play a B major instead of Ab minor. If you listen to the bass line, it's outlining a B major chord with the notes F#-B-F#, B-C#-D# , which is a classic B major triad/arpeggio with the passing tone C# for melodic movement.

That's not saying it sounds wrong to play Ab minor, in fact after your post I grabbed my beater acoustic and ran Ab minor to test it, and it fit, but with the bassline being so strong on B major I still have to go with that. Of course that's just my ears and what I've taught my students who have learned that tune on bass and guitar, I have been wrong before!  ;D

There's no organ on either WIBN or GOK.

Well, then Larry was incorrect while being quoted for the Pet Sounds Sessions box booklet:

"On Pet Sounds, I did a two-handed rhythm thing on the B-3, alternating hands between the manuals. I did that in 'Wouldn't It Be Nice' and 'God Only Knows.' He had me do it with one hand on 'Good Vibrations.'" His (Brian's) orchestrations, his sound textures were unusual. I'm an arranger too, and he orchestrated wonderful, contrapuntal lines. I played organ on 'God Only Knows.' I haven't played that song since the session, and not long ago, went down in the basement to play it. His bass lines were great; he didn't do the standard stuff. He would make chord change...move it from A to E over G sharp and it was a beautiful move. The changes in the left hand always amazed me." I usually played harpsichord, electric piano or the Hammond B-3 organ. Leon usually played the grand.
 
 
Maybe he meant he played on the piano for Wouldn't It Be Nice and God Only Knows?
 

Larry played piano on WIBN and Harpsichord on GOK.  But neither of those involve two handed stuff on two manuals.  He's just flat out misremembering.

Another interpretation by a pretty good piano player and fan, Francis Greene - says the original key is D# :

Dm................................C.......................................Bb..................................................A7
I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and the way the sunlight plays upon her hair
Dm...............................C..............................Bb............................................................A7.....C7

I always thought the verse had the chords Eb, Ab, Gb.

Was just going back over the liners and enjoying them again. Don Randi:
 
"When we were doing 'Good Vibrations,' there was a low note that sustains through everything. He knew he wanted everything to go off of that note. The session went really late, and it got to the point where I took a pillow and laid down. I was so tired. I laid down with the pillow on the bottom note on the foot pedals and took a nap; my note never stopped."

"Pet Sounds had such great songs.. 'God Only Knows' is beautiful. That one, they should give to every music class, and say 'Here, do this one. Do it a capella.' Give 'em a key note and see what happens. There'll be a lot of suicides".

 

Don Randi played on two "Good Vibrations" sessions:  piano on the first (Gold Star, 2/17-18, although the parts he played on were edited out of the master) and electric harpsichord on the 6/2 Western session (this session produced the first, second & third choruses used in the final master, as well as the "fuzz bass bridge" that almost made it to the master).  

Mike Melvoin played tack piano on the 4/9/66 Gold Star "Good Vibrations" session, upright piano (w/strings taped) on the 5/27 Western session (it produced the third bridge & chorus fade used in the final master, as well as an alternate piano/tympani/flute/piccolo bridge), and organ on the unused 6/16 Western session.

And, it's been awhile since I listened to the session for "Wouldn't It Be Nice", but I seem to recall Larry started out playing the organ but switched to one of the pianos (tack, I think?) at some point and stayed there for the master take.  Not positive, though.

It's definitely not in Dm as that transcription says, it's 100% starting on the Eb minor chord. The chorus cycles through, changing keys a whole step up for each key change. He starts on Gb (I'm picking up good vibrations...), changes up to Ab for the next one, then finally gets to Bb for the last, and Bb acting as the dominant chord resolves exactly where it would be expected to go, back to Eb minor.

It's the same kind of compositional and harmonic thing Brian did on the chorus of California Girls, but on that one he changed keys down a whole step every time the chorus hook was sung, going from B maj, to A maj, to G maj, and ending back in B.

Pretty neat thing to have three key changes in a chorus, and since he went up instead of down on GV's chorus, it didn't sound like he was copying himself from an earlier hit's chorus.

I'll believe you.

I just saw two other chord variations for Good Vibrations on the Internet, and I'm quite sure there are more. Here's the original Sea Of Tunes sheet music that I'm use to seeing, but as we know, the original sheet music is wrong half the time anyway or in a different key than the original. Of course it's transposable:

Dm, C, Bb, A, Dm, C, Bb, A, C7

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What thread was this because that was never mentioned in the thread where we were talking about this about a month ago.

I think we figured it out via email ... one of those 5.1-type mixes has some elements isolated to where you can hear this thing by itself ... you can hear the bongos (or congas or whatever they are) through the leslie. I kept thinking it sounded like drum sticks hitting an electric guitar in the mono mix, so it sort of explains that strange sound.

all the info in these threads ... scattered everywhere !

He said the bit where everything drops out. I took him literally. Though he probably means the bongos.

I doubted it too until I heard it with my own ears - percussive drums through a Leslie, in 1965/66...unbelievable. But it's definitely there on Pet Sounds.

This is one *major benefit* to remixing certain albums in stereo, offering new and different mixes and formats for classic albums, hell maybe even someday making the bare multitracks available to consumers: You hear things that for decades were buried in mono mixes. I've heard Pet Sounds, studied Pet Sounds, dissected Pet Sounds...just like many here have done...and I had never heard that Leslie effect on those drums until now.

Being a mono purist is fine for aesthetic and historical reasons, and of course personal taste, but look at the treasures buried under all the mono mixes on certain albums. I'm still recovering from hearing that amazing tack piano part on the PS box set that was buried on "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times", speaking of great instrumental parts on BB's records and all that.

The original mono mix of IJWMFTT was a strange one. The backing track seems to almost disappear in the "each time things start" section, as if Brian pulled back on that fader and at the same time surged on the backing vox.

It works really well, but I've always wondered of he meant to pull back on that fader quite so much.

Of that song in particular, the mono and stereo mixes are quite different animals.

That's just the thing about the original mono mixes: Was it a case of lowering the levels manually, or was the overall mix a victim of various phase cancellation issues by the nature of the sounds and the sheer number of tracks? There was an interview about the box set, somewhere, where Mark Linett said something about the equipment limitations being a factor in the sound quality, and that what Brian wanted to do and how much he wanted to do may have been more than the equipment they were using in '66 was designed for.

The results speak for themselves, obviously it's one of the greatest of all time, but when you hear the stereo mixes all of those neat parts disappeared in the mono. And I think more than actively dialing back the faders, perhaps it was just as much a case of the frequencies from, say, the wall of vocal overdubs cancelling out certain other frequencies in the instrumental sections as a result.

That's just a look at it from an engineering/production standpoint, where it can be a lesson learned by experience where sometimes you'd think layering 6 rhythm guitar tracks on a tune would make it sound massive, when in fact the addition of something like an organ part over those 6 tracks would cause all kinds of frequency issues resulting in mush rather than a massive sound, and you'd lose some of your parts which may be crucial to your track without touching a fader. It's the old "less is more" ethic...

...and a credit to the way those classic mono recordings were both recorded and mixed so you hear as much of the band as you can hear without having it be all jumbled together. And again, hearing Pet Sounds in stereo remix form just revealed so much that was buried, yet the mono mix is a stone-cold classic recording of the 60's which sounded great.

I think IJWMFTT was sort of a victim of its own heaviness.  On the one hand, yes, the mono mix is this impenetrable thing of glory, that has always sounded unlike anything else.  Like I say, it's heavy; there's an incredible weight to it, like the weight of living in a world for which you were not made.

On the other hand, it's such a neat arrangement and getting all of it requires at the very least the stereo track mix.  But I suspect if we heard the individual multitracks, even more would be revealed, like the little touches from the isolated 5.1 "stem" of Pet Sounds. 

I'm still trying to figure out what all is going in in the "each time things start" section.  It's almost Stravinsky or Ives there, with like this polytonal thing going on.  The first chord of that section has the C in the bass, but I think there's also a D, and Eb, F, G, and Bb.  It's like an Eb Maj 7 chord played simultaneously with a C sus 4...or something.  And Barney's 12-string guitar harps on that very dissonant F.

Well, it's a great moment.

The mono IJWMFTT in all its over-heavy glory works in a way that I Wish I Never Saw the Sunshine does not, and I say that as a huge Spector fan. Same sort of soft / loud dynamic between the verses and choruses, same muddiness. That first chord in the chorus of IWINSTS just sounds wrong because of all that's going on.

Although Phil had the Pet Sounds sound in '64  ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPlQ3YwCKeU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPlQ3YwCKeU)

First time one of my threads breaks 8 pages...sweet  :-D

There's a good bit of slow compression on the final mono mix of PS. In some places, the louder elements wash out the quieter elements. A lot of masking as well.

I think the arrangements are too dense and just sound distracting in the remixes. All those weird little parts (like the saloon piano in IJWMFTT) just don't fit when you can hear the part clearly in the stereo mix. There's a lot of conflicting elements ... I think BW knew EXACTLY what he was doing in the original mono mixes, and paid special attention to make everything work just so. In fact, I think it was the last full album that he really paid that kind of attention to. I think he got it perfect the first time around. I love hearing the discrete elements on their own, as individual works in progress though.

Whilst I'm not disagreeing Donny, why then did he leave the talking in?

It's a great mix, full of character, and the intricate parts add to the sound even if you can't quite hear them. It's also rather sloppy and slap-dash though, and the chatter bears this out.

Although an album not praised for its production, I believe there are some interesting instrument playing moments in 'Love You'.

The bass synths in 'Honkin...' are pretty cool with Al's singing, but the great moment comes during the rising 'Take it one little inch at a time now, 'Til we're feelin' fine now...' when we get that high pitched organ in the background. Its not a complicated thing to play but as an instrumental moment, it gives the song so much validity and depth.

It's a beautiful, shiny moment in an otherwise obscure album.

I think they just forgot to mute the vocal tracks during the instrumental break. Keep in mind the backtracks were mixed independently from the vocals & backtrack mix, and appear as a complete, separate track on the final mulitrack masters. They got the mix just right and decided to let it go. I wouldn't call it 'sloppy' personally, I think it's just an artifact of the process and workflow of the era. This is before the era of automation, and during the era of the 3-hour session window. I don't believe you can have the thrill and charm of a 1966 mix without the artifacts that come with it, unless you got lucky.

Artistically, it is perfect. Technically, there are some 'errors' that came through (distortion & talking on 'Here Today', ghosting from previously recorded material on 'IWFTD', etc.). Part of what gives the original mix a roughness missing from modern mixes.

That's just it, they spent ages tracking, and got the mono track mix downs perfect, then spent take after take on the vocals,.........and then forgot to mute the talking on the vocal tracks on the final mix. I find it hard to believe that after spending all that time on the album, he didn't have an extra few hours to do a few more passes on a couple of tracks. It's never made sense to me. That said, I don't mind the talking, and agree with you 100% about the thrill and charm of these recordings. Someone on here before has described it as "seat of your pants" recording.

There is the argument of course that he was mixing for the playback equipment of the day, and felt that the mistakes just wouldn't be heard.

I also think it's possible that these mistakes bugged him in hindsight, and added to the perfectionism problems he ran into on the follow up album.

Again I cannot remember where to find it, but there was an interview years ago - it could have been with Chuck Britz, I wish I could remember - where those mixing "mistakes" on Pet Sounds were attributed to Brian basically running out of steam at points and going with what he had and what felt good rather than spending more time on the smaller details to clean things up. Which would mean if he got the overall feel or something, yet there were still small issues audible on the tapes that could be fixed with more time and more meticulous work, he did not go for the minute details and stuck with the feel of the overall mix.

Someone please remember this: Was it Chuck Britz? Did someone else suggest Brian perhaps moved on too quickly in approving certain final mixes, leaving maybe too many mistakes in there?

So some would suggest he could have gone back, he could have corrected them, and other than being an aesthetic choice as producer to say we're going for a sloppy, audio verite vibe here, he went with the feel, what he felt was the right one. While some would listen, with that in mind, and say it left some strings hanging that could have been trimmed off had more time been invested in the little details.

I'm not making that up - If someone can fill in the gaps as to where or who that interview is from, please do.

And wasn't it Peter Reum who wrote an essay suggesting Lowell George was influenced by those things on Pet Sounds and adapted some of them for his own mixing and production methods with Little Feat? Again the words were written somewhere, I just can;t recall where.

At some point, too, keep in mind that once an artist's work reaches a certain level of status or renown, what the artist would consider a mistake becomes part of his/her artistic statement in the opinions of fans and critics analyzing the work. Sometimes an unintended slip of the paintbrush is simply a slip of the paintbrush rather than a bold artistic stroke, right?

Naturally it's just discussion because the album is a masterpiece and always will be considered so.

The running out of steam argument makes the most sense to me. He's had enough and said "Right, that's it" He has a couple of months rest and comes back with Good Vibrations, which is as sonically close to perfect as you're ever likely to get. (Forgetting the mangled tape)

As an aside, I got to hear Vibes in context recently. A radio show was playing some 60's tracks, and unbeknownst to me it was the top 20 UK chart for mid October '66. Bear in  mind this is a chart which contains "I'll Be There". Good Vibrations came out of nowhere, sounding absolutely nothing like the 19 previous songs. That was amazing, getting to hear just how revolutionary this record was.

RIGHT ON

Yes, this is what I'm talking about! The point of diminishing returns or something. The mix is a live performance. At some point, you need to decide where the sweet spot is between getting a good feel and overworking the thing and losing the feel. This is also partially why you'll hear splices here and there ... sometimes things will be mixed in sections.

I don't recall ever reading an interview like this w/ Britz ... I'd love to if anyone knows where to find it! There are lot of anecdotes out there from Jimmy Lockhart, which I think we can learn a lot from.

Though I must say, I'm not sure Britz was present for the final mix of most of Pet Sounds. This mystery has has bugged me for some time ...

Well it was Steve Douglas who said that the first mix of Pet Sounds was even sloppier?  It might have been him that some of those comments came from.

I started a new thread for discussing the PS mix if anyone has any info to add

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I'm a room and a half from my piano and my arms aren't long enough to compensate, but it sounds like Francis just moved the whole thing down a half step for simplicity sake (Ebm down to Dm; Gb down to F, etc.)? i've never played it against the record either on guitar or piano, so can't speak to the original key.

And it probably wouldn't have happened without the Monkees.   ;D     ;)

Yeah, Francis often transposes the key of the songs he transcribes (though he always posts the original key as well). I suspect it's to make it easier for guitarists -- all those flat chords would be a real pain for an amateur guitarist. Plus dropping it a semitone would make it slightly less impossible to hit those high notes on "I hear the sound of a" and "when I look".

Gotta love them primates  :)

Well, I always thought Good Vibrations was in Eb. And you're right, those flat notes are a pain in the butt to play for an amateur acoustic guitar player. So is that why Francis dropped it down to the key of D#, to make it easier for guitar players? Francis is very knowledgeable musician (and a nice guy). I traded some stuff with him in the 90's then lost contact - too bad he doesn't post here. Just surprised he didn't transcribe this in the original key (which I've always assumed was Eb).

Trust me, it starts on Eb minor, I don't know how much more about those chords I could have added that I didn't in the earlier posts to say it's an Eb minor on the original recording.

I've transcribed it on guitar (for the chords and bass line double), and for bass, and my students for some time have played along with it on bass and guitar, and it fits.

I'm sorry to get in a bit of a hissy fit here, but if someone posts this stuff and says exactly what key it's in and what the chords are, I don't understand the follow-ups asking what key it's in or whatever.

Seriously, what's up with "can't speak to the original key" after it was already posted? Anyway...

verses: Ebm / Ebm / Db / Db/ B / B / Bb / Bb

choruses: Gb / Gb / Gb / Gb / Gb / Gb / Gb / Gb / Ab / Ab / Ab / Ab / Bb / Bb / Bb / Bb

Bridge #1  half-time rhythm: Bb pedal bass for 6 bars, Eb pedal bass for 2 bars, Bb pedal bass for 2 bars

Church organ break: F / F / Gm / C7 (Repeat until ahhh, root bass note underneath is F...)

Chorus in reverse: Bb / Bb / Bb / Bb / Ab / Ab / Ab / Ab / Gb / Gb

da-dad-da-da-dah part: Gb / Ab / Bb / Ab

fade out on chorus riff in Ab

That's what is on the record.

Since the thread is about great instrument parts on the recordings, and GV was the current topic, this is a rough sketch I did several years ago of the GV bass part, tabbed out in basic form, hand drawn. Since most of it involves quarter notes, there are no rhythms indicated for the most part. Anyone with a guitar or bass who reads tab can play along with this, and the rhythms in the verse are self-explanatory when you listen to the record. This is a no-frills, no-fancy-notation-software transcription that works, that people can play along at most playing levels, and where the fingerings and positions may not be exactly as originally played but are positions which make the most logical sense on the neck. It doesn't look pretty but it gets the job done.

Play this with a pick.  :)

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/gvbass1_zpscec4a28e.jpg)

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/gvbass2_zps6e0c3098.jpg)

The "Love You" moment that's always slayed me is the bridge of "I'll Bet He's Nice"...Carl's voice coming in like sunshine after the previous raspiness (but raspy in a great way) of Dennis and Brian, with the little synth notes dotting away behind him.  Killer!

‍

They're called enharmonics, two names for the same pitch. I think Mikie meant to say "Dm", I could have written the chords above in D# but it's less common to see than Eb.

I think you'r right--close to perfect. For me, what stands in the way though is the tambourine. It's recorded poorly (in the context of it being such a "highlight" instrument in a pretty sparse arrangement) and i think it sits way too loud in the mix. Never understood what he was going for there.

Whatever happened to that video interview with Chuck? It seems to have disappeared from the internet. Does anyone know where that can be viewed now?

I think the mangled tape thing is a myth, or related to something other than anything that ended up audible on the final mix. I think the thing that most people hear that they think is tape damage is some kind of low frequency element triggering a compressor to reduce the gain for a brief moment (like someone bumping a mic-stand or something).

The original story apparently comes from an '80s radio interview w/ Carl, where he mentions phasing occurring as a result of crinkled tape, which I believe would be unnoticeable to most people.

Good grief, all I meant was I didn't have the hands-on knowledge of the original key.  Until this thread, as far as I recall, I'd only seen a chord chart with the Dm sequence, and my Irving Music sheet music, copyright 1966, has it in Dm, so that's how I'd always played it. Obviously some of you folk already knew the original key.  I didn't. So that's "what's up" with that.

The tambourine is one of my favourite things in the song. I particularly love what it brings to the fade tag.

Speaking of 'Love You', another great moment is the 'I'll bet he's nice' demo from Brian on piano. There's so much raw emotion in his playing, it really makes the song amazing.

Although I like the album version, something of the original rawness was lost in the production. IMO it would have worked better as a solo, 'unplugged' recording.

I haven't played to the recording for ages, but isn't the verse part an octave higher than that? I always play it on the D and G strings, 13th/1th fret

I was going to make this comment as well.

I agree with this, and I had that point in mind when I sketched it out those years ago. My thinking was at the time a more logical, almost practical way to position the chord outlines on the neck, and I assumed that either a guitar or Danelectro bass or something like that would be doubling the bass notes an octave higher...also assuming the bass itself may have been doubled by something like Lyle playing lower octave notes on upright acoustic bass.

I did it more for the logic of how it goes through the chord positions, eventually ending up around the 2nd fret for the chorus, than I did considering the electric bass may have been playing in the higher octave and position. I also thought if a guitar or Danelectro would double that, the musical logic would say put the bass one octave lower rather than having all of them playing in the same octave.

I totally hear your points, though, and I had to decide where to place that position-wise, maybe considering less the exact instrumentation and more the logic of how it was arranged.

Effing hell, let me add my voice to the chorus: "Good Vibrations" starts with a Eb minor.  The End.

Yeah, it's Ebm.

It's interesting, and this is not a criticism of anybody in particular, that, and I'm trying to choose my words wisely here, amateur or budding musicians tend to use sharp keys where the flat enharmonic key would be more appropriate.  Perhaps it's because there's more early exposure to keys like G and D that have sharps.  But I've seen all kinds of internet chord charts that will have a progression written as something like A# / D# / F.  Which is fine if it works, but it's just "flat" out easier, not only to just think about the one song, but also to conceptualize harmonic relationships in general, to use keys more...idiomatically, I suppose.

Really? Pretty much everything I ever see tends to use flats more than sharps.
Unless... are these ASCII chord charts rather than off a site like chordie.com? It might be that people are just using the sharp sign because it's on their keyboard, where the flat sign isn't.

The bass on Slip On Through, especially the one found on the All This Is That bootleg (take 7?). That descending line/riff after the first 'Come on, won't you let me be' is just gorgeous.

This is a great thread!!  enjoyed reading this!.....

Keep it all coming.....

I do question the liner notes of TWGMTR.......and even vocally......seems like there are too many 'younger' sounding voices in there than just
the guys and Foskett.....and A.Baker.....
is there a thread on here somewhere 'pulling apart' the vocals on the album? it just sounds to me, the like's of Sahanaja/Bennett etc may be in there also...


RickB

Does anyone here have the original Stack O Tracks LP from the 60"s with the music book in it.? I learned GOK from that book I believe. The intro went something like : A E F#M7 E and when the vocal comes in it went D BM7 F#M7 B7 E ? E C#M7.. A E F#M7 E.. The ? mark I use  FMAJ 7.. I know that one is wrong but it sounds OK.. Just curious.THX