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Author Topic: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love  (Read 23363 times)
Nicko1234
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« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2013, 02:59:32 PM »



Yeah, you can't blame all that on Dennis completely unless he was going around raping people....

But I wonder if any of these occurrences happened before they were Beach Boy wives and were "fair game" around the Beach Boys camp....

With Marilyn and Lynda that would be a bit of a long shot...
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« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2013, 03:06:25 PM »



Yeah, you can't blame all that on Dennis completely unless he was going around raping people....

But I wonder if any of these occurrences happened before they were Beach Boy wives and were "fair game" around the Beach Boys camp....

With Marilyn and Lynda that would be a bit of a long shot...

I wonder if that's why Dennis always left the stage when they played Lady Lynda  LOL
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« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2013, 03:18:56 PM »

If it's true that Dennis slept with one of Mike's wives, I don't blame Mike for hating Dennis.  That's not something most people ever get over, and then the whole episode with Shawn, painful.
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« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2013, 04:21:52 PM »

Back on topic...

As others have said, anyone with mental health problems needs to want to help themselves. Dennis unfortunately didn't and so no blame can be apportioned to Carl or the others.

According to Brian, Dennis slept with his wife, one of Mike's wives and Al's wife. Dennis was lucky he was allowed to stay in the band for as long as he was...

...but didn't Brian also sleep with his wife's sister?  Who needs soap operas when you have the Beach Boys!
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« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2013, 05:14:54 PM »

Back on topic...

As others have said, anyone with mental health problems needs to want to help themselves. Dennis unfortunately didn't and so no blame can be apportioned to Carl or the others.

According to Brian, Dennis slept with his wife, one of Mike's wives and Al's wife. Dennis was lucky he was allowed to stay in the band for as long as he was...

...but didn't Brian also sleep with his wife's sister?  Who needs soap operas when you have the Beach Boys!

Ah! Grand idea: an NBC daytime soap (with typical soap opera production values) about The Beach Boys circa the 1970's - 80's!!!!! ..... Hell, I'd watch that!!!!
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« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2013, 06:35:55 PM »

I've imagined the long running Beach Boys soap opera in my head and trust me it's the best show ever! Smokin I can even imagine an old repeat of an episode from 1965 where the band is getting interrupted by Murry and Brian flips his lid! This soap opera has been going on for over 51 years, Brian's got to break Ken Barlow's record sometime soon for longest running soap character eventually.

Right now the latest episodes main focus is on Al working on a new album to be released in 2026, Dave shopping for new sunglasses and Brian eating birthday cake and listening to the 60's music channel. Mike and Bruce have asked their promoters to get a gig at a Minnesota McDonalds.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 06:44:37 PM by SamMcK » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2013, 09:56:05 PM »

If Mike had said that pre 1980 I'd strongly disagree but by 1980 Dennis had pissed all his talent away.

If people think Mike was harsh, just imagine if the tables had been reversed and Mike had started a sexual relationship with Carnie a few years later.

Now THAT is just a frightening idea...

if he was going to bone one of Brian's two daughters, it would definitely have been Wendy.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 10:00:29 PM by dwtherealbb » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2013, 09:59:58 PM »

Back on topic...

As others have said, anyone with mental health problems needs to want to help themselves. Dennis unfortunately didn't and so no blame can be apportioned to Carl or the others.

According to Brian, Dennis slept with his wife, one of Mike's wives and Al's wife. Dennis was lucky he was allowed to stay in the band for as long as he was...

I thought that Brian is the only one who claimed Marilyn slept with Dennis. Every other credible source has denied it.
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2013, 03:41:09 AM »

Thought this was about who would win in a fight.

I have skimmed as im on the phone, but i Think Dennis might be getting short shrift in this thread, going into the eighties he had an absolutely crippling addiction and that was for the most part, ignored by the band, maybe because Brian's welfare took priority ($$$) or just because Mike Love thought he was a 'parasite' (real nice, Mike) and the bands management disregarded him so much they could just go round his house and beat him to a pulp without much retribution from anyone else.

But if you think that somehow Dennis was walking round Venice Beach drinking litres worth of vodka each day because he's some party animal, that's unbelievable. The man was incredibly ill. And the band made few attempts at rehab for him, but mostly they spurned him. Or at least, that's how I see it. If you read the Gaines book and not moved by those accounts of his last days, I don't know.

You can't help a guy who won't be helped, if that is the way it was.

What an odd response to what Hypehat wrote.

What an odd response to what Cam wrote.
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« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2013, 04:57:47 AM »

Thought this was about who would win in a fight.

I have skimmed as im on the phone, but i Think Dennis might be getting short shrift in this thread, going into the eighties he had an absolutely crippling addiction and that was for the most part, ignored by the band, maybe because Brian's welfare took priority ($$$) or just because Mike Love thought he was a 'parasite' (real nice, Mike) and the bands management disregarded him so much they could just go round his house and beat him to a pulp without much retribution from anyone else.

But if you think that somehow Dennis was walking round Venice Beach drinking ljitres worth of vodka each day because he's some party animal, that's unbelievable. The man was incredibly ill. And the band made few attempts at rehab for him, but mostly they spurned him. Or at least, that's how I see it. If you read the Gaines book and not moved by those accounts of his last days, I don't know.

You can't help a guy who won't be helped, if that is the way it was.

Not like Brian, who wanted to be cured so much they had to put him under virtual house arrest.... twice.

Going 'well, he brought it on himself' seems to deny that 'the beach boys' as a unit had little or no interest in keeping Dennis clean so long as they had a replacement drummer. Carl's offer of rehab seems woefully inadequate, to be perfectly honest, especially seeing as they forced Brian to do it. But then, Brian made them money.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 05:00:32 AM by hypehat » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2013, 05:44:59 AM »

If Mike had said that pre 1980 I'd strongly disagree but by 1980 Dennis had pissed all his talent away.

If people think Mike was harsh, just imagine if the tables had been reversed and Mike had started a sexual relationship with Carnie a few years later.

Now THAT is just a frightening idea...

if he was going to bone one of Brian's two daughters, it would definitely have been Wendy.



Well, but Carnie admitted that she had a crush on Dennis..... 






Carl's offer of rehab seems woefully inadequate, to be perfectly honest, especially seeing as they forced Brian to do it. But then, Brian made them money.



We have absolutely no idea about it. Times were very different and what is seen as serious life-threatening sickness today was seen as "problems" back then. Plus Dennis and Brian were two totally different personalities. You can force Brian to go into therapy but with Dennis you couldn't.
I can't stand this "but Brian made them more money so they rather helped him"-talk. These guys were brothers/family and the love between Carl and Dennis was just as strong (afaik) as the love between Brian and Carl. I don't think they were thinking about what would become of the band but were concerned about their brothers/cousins. Of course it's a very difficult situation for us to understand because the band/business and the family were so very close that you can't really draw a line between them.
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« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2013, 07:02:23 AM »

Thought this was about who would win in a fight.

I have skimmed as im on the phone, but i Think Dennis might be getting short shrift in this thread, going into the eighties he had an absolutely crippling addiction and that was for the most part, ignored by the band, maybe because Brian's welfare took priority ($$$) or just because Mike Love thought he was a 'parasite' (real nice, Mike) and the bands management disregarded him so much they could just go round his house and beat him to a pulp without much retribution from anyone else.

But if you think that somehow Dennis was walking round Venice Beach drinking ljitres worth of vodka each day because he's some party animal, that's unbelievable. The man was incredibly ill. And the band made few attempts at rehab for him, but mostly they spurned him. Or at least, that's how I see it. If you read the Gaines book and not moved by those accounts of his last days, I don't know.

You can't help a guy who won't be helped, if that is the way it was.

Not like Brian, who wanted to be cured so much they had to put him under virtual house arrest.... twice.

Going 'well, he brought it on himself' seems to deny that 'the beach boys' as a unit had little or no interest in keeping Dennis clean so long as they had a replacement drummer. Carl's offer of rehab seems woefully inadequate, to be perfectly honest, especially seeing as they forced Brian to do it. But then, Brian made them money.

Well none of us know what really went on but apparently Brian was more cooperative in ways that got him help. It seems the Boys get too quickly and freely criticised to me.  Maybe it was the difference between mental illness and addictive behavior with Brian and Dennis, I don't know. Maybe wife/girlfriend support might have made a difference at one point. Maybe Dennis' support outside the group wasn't there. I'm guessing it was all there however and ultimately came down to Dennis and despite whatever the support and sacrifice of the Boys and wives and friends they were reduced to watching Dennis fall apart despite all of their concern and help. I wasn't there. I know it happens and it is tragic.
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« Reply #62 on: February 09, 2013, 10:57:19 AM »

Let's keep in mind (and I know this from experience and from almost everyone's family I know) most families have a tough time even TALKING about such problems out in the open let-alone formulating a workable/realistic plan to help the family member in question.... 
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« Reply #63 on: February 09, 2013, 11:36:14 AM »

I think there were also some legal issues involved. I remember reading an interview or a quote from Brian regarding the 1975-76 Landy intervention. Brian said something to the effect that Marilyn was talking about institutionalizing him around that time, which scared Brian, and was a factor with him agreeing to Landy's care. As his wife, Marilyn could've had Brian committed. Living with Brian, she had sufficient evidence.

With the second Landy intervention in 1982, again they had enough "on Brian" to have him committed, or have a conservator appointed, which, of course, later became an issue.

Other than firing Dennis from the band which hurt his pocketbook (or did he continue to get paid?), I don't know if there was much the guys/family could do - legally - to force Dennis's rehabilitation. They might've been able to pursue the conservatorship issue, but that wouldn't have been easy. It's a shame Dennis didn't have a spouse at that time who could've advocated for him and force the (rehabilitation) issue if you will...
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« Reply #64 on: February 09, 2013, 12:02:32 PM »

If I remember correctly, in "Wouldn't It Be Nice" ...... there's a scene early in the book where Dennis bursts into Brian's room with some groupie and goes digging through drawers for royalty checks to go cash and hauls off with like a stack in each hand.... It seems it would have been mighty difficult to force Dennis to do anything if he didn't want to. Also, I remember reading that Dennis would indeed agree to rehab here and there but just wouldn't stay very long. Seems he was just born constantly restless. That right there in itself would make kicking habits very hard.
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Nicko1234
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« Reply #65 on: February 09, 2013, 12:53:56 PM »

Not like Brian, who wanted to be cured so much they had to put him under virtual house arrest.... twice.

Going 'well, he brought it on himself' seems to deny that 'the beach boys' as a unit had little or no interest in keeping Dennis clean so long as they had a replacement drummer. Carl's offer of rehab seems woefully inadequate, to be perfectly honest, especially seeing as they forced Brian to do it. But then, Brian made them money.

I think that's nonsense and shows a complete lack of understanding for those who have tried to help friends and loved ones who suffer from mental health problems and /or addictions.
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« Reply #66 on: February 09, 2013, 01:03:29 PM »

I think it also pays to consider the fact that Brian was in much worse shape than Dennis (up until Dennis' last couple of years maybe). Wasn't it basically accepted that Brian would likely die soon whereas Dennis seemed to basically be indestructible until much later? It's no surprise if Brian was made a priority for help, this being the case.
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« Reply #67 on: February 09, 2013, 04:37:56 PM »

Not like Brian, who wanted to be cured so much they had to put him under virtual house arrest.... twice.

Going 'well, he brought it on himself' seems to deny that 'the beach boys' as a unit had little or no interest in keeping Dennis clean so long as they had a replacement drummer. Carl's offer of rehab seems woefully inadequate, to be perfectly honest, especially seeing as they forced Brian to do it. But then, Brian made them money.

I think that's nonsense and shows a complete lack of understanding for those who have tried to help friends and loved ones who suffer from mental health problems and /or addictions.

You're probably right, to an extent, but then this....

...whereas Dennis seemed to basically be indestructible until much later?

isn't a helpful factor either. If Dennis' partyhardymarty image and lifestyle seems normal, as it was up until 1979 or so, why send him to rehab?

What is noticeable is that Brian, who was constantly viewed as a dealbreaker going into record deals, concerts, and songwriting concerns, was the centre of attention. The band paid for his therapy, therapy which he was forced into. Dennis had a vague promise that if you want to go to rehab, we'll pay for it. But in the meantime, you're fired.

Urgh, not expressing self clearly. Maybe Dennis burned his bridges. But a vague promise of rehab doth not support make. A lot of urgent and key points from Rocker and The Artist Formally Known As Erik H
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 04:40:00 PM by hypehat » Logged

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« Reply #68 on: February 09, 2013, 04:51:24 PM »

Not like Brian, who wanted to be cured so much they had to put him under virtual house arrest.... twice.

Going 'well, he brought it on himself' seems to deny that 'the beach boys' as a unit had little or no interest in keeping Dennis clean so long as they had a replacement drummer. Carl's offer of rehab seems woefully inadequate, to be perfectly honest, especially seeing as they forced Brian to do it. But then, Brian made them money.

I think that's nonsense and shows a complete lack of understanding for those who have tried to help friends and loved ones who suffer from mental health problems and /or addictions.

You're probably right, to an extent, but then this....

...whereas Dennis seemed to basically be indestructible until much later?

isn't a helpful factor either. If Dennis' partyhardymarty image and lifestyle seems normal, as it was up until 1979 or so, why send him to rehab?

What is noticeable is that Brian, who was constantly viewed as a dealbreaker going into record deals, concerts, and songwriting concerns, was the centre of attention. The band paid for his therapy, therapy which he was forced into. Dennis had a vague promise that if you want to go to rehab, we'll pay for it. But in the meantime, you're fired.

Urgh, not expressing self clearly. Maybe Dennis burned his bridges. But a vague promise of rehab doth not support make. A lot of urgent and key points from Rocker and The Artist Formally Known As Erik H

Hey! That Erik H guy has a full head of hair! Can't be me!!!

What I mean is: long before Dennis was in bad shape, Brian was almost 400 pounds and clearly (moneymaker/dealbreaker or not) at a point of no return and him getting back onto something of a road to recovery was a long haul process.... Brian was also clearly troubled for a long long time..... Then in the meantime, much later Dennis rapidly degenerated while everyone was busy worrying about Brian..... Didn't help that Dennis managed to piss people off more than Brian... He was also the band's drummer. It's almost impossible to overstate how negatively an unsteady drummer can derail/enrage a band! I don't think anyone lost any sleep if Brian just sat there and pawed an unplugged keyboard or actually switched it on, but Dennis falling over the drums was sheer panic and embarrassment. Band's can be petty and selfish organizations, family or not. I'm sure they all loved and wanted to help Dennis, but I can't imagine even confronting his problems was ever easy.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 04:52:20 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
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« Reply #69 on: February 09, 2013, 05:11:09 PM »

Wasn't there a quote from one of Dennis's friends that there was a plan to get Landy to work with Dennis but they knew that Dennis would never agree to it?

I do agree also that it took the band a long time to really get Brian treatment. He had first shown signs of mental health problems in around 1964 or 1965 and it took years before he was properly treated. That's not because the band didn't care but because they didn't know what to do. Even now people struggle to deal with mental health issues and back then it must have been even more difficult.

Dennis had exhibited serious problems for a much shorter period as a previous poster remarked. I'm sure Carl (and Audree and other family members and friends) wanted to help him but there is nothing you can do when a person won't help themselves...
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 05:31:33 PM by Nicko1234 » Logged
hypehat
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« Reply #70 on: February 09, 2013, 06:07:07 PM »

That's not because the band didn't care but because they didn't know what to do.

That's the most likely explanation.
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« Reply #71 on: February 09, 2013, 07:24:07 PM »

That's not because the band didn't care but because they didn't know what to do.

That's the most likely explanation.

Yeah, you can't really look at Brian or Denny's problems with a 2013 perspective. Both mental health and substance abuse therapy was in infancy back then, and in the case of Dennis, he was just steady enough for just long enough to get himself killed.
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« Reply #72 on: February 09, 2013, 07:34:40 PM »

I thought of something!  How about a tv movie about Dennis Wilson! I mean a perspective of his life!
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« Reply #73 on: February 09, 2013, 08:32:59 PM »

There already was one. It's called Summer Dreams.  Grin
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« Reply #74 on: February 10, 2013, 12:33:51 AM »

the thing about Dennis was that I've heard a lot of contradicting stories on him. On one hand he seemed to be a chill type of person, almost like the Dude in the Big Lebowski. He seemed like a perfectly nice and generous guy, who was willing to talk to complete strangers in public (and sometimes let them in his house). On the other hand he seemed to have the worst temper in the group and was one who was always prone to outbursts. Whether it was getting in fights with his father or giving profanity laced interviews, he seemed to snap easily. Everything I read on him gives me the impression that he was like a wild animal that couldn't be contained. He probably would have driven anyone insane.
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