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Title: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Surfer on February 07, 2013, 02:16:44 PM I do not really understand this. When Dennis was a teenager he would ask Mike to go Surfin or fishing but in the late or early 70's they hated each other and why would Mike's Brother Stan beat up Dennis for?
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Letsgoawayforawhile on February 07, 2013, 02:46:47 PM Shield yourself from the mean comments to follow, Friend.
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Cabinessenceking on February 07, 2013, 02:48:58 PM Dennis: mike was 'square' and i'm awesome
Mike: denny's a bully and stealing my spotlight. he dead now. drag. pretty much sums it up i think Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Alex on February 07, 2013, 03:46:12 PM I do not really understand this. When Dennis was a teenager he would ask Mike to go Surfin or fishing but in the late or early 70's they hated each other and why would Mike's Brother Stan beat up Dennis for? Read Gaines, Carlin, Stebbins, etc. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Jason Penick on February 07, 2013, 04:20:54 PM How about we actually try to answer this young fan's question, yes? First of all Surfer, there are only two people on this board who can offer you big-picture firsthand insight, and that would be Dennis's best friend Ed Roach and Beach Boys Engineer Stephen W. Desper. Several Beach Boys authors can also be found here who have interviewed many of the leading characters in this drama. Based off of their research and others, I think it's safe to say that as Dennis and Michael were cousins, they started off with a relationship typical of male family members of similar age; they loved each other at the core but were also highly competitive with one another. As the years progressed, they grew in different directions. Micheal gravitated towards TM and healthy living, while Dennis sought refuge in drugs and alcohol. The primary bone of contention in later years seemed to be Dennis's increasing reliability to show up sober at concerts, coupled with his adverse effect on brother Brian when it came to providing him with certain substances. Likewise, Dennis seems to have disliked the artistic path the band was following in the late 70s-early 80s and actively tried to encourage Brian to "take back the reins" as it were; so you had a power struggle as well. Others can elaborate I'm sure, but I believe that is the crux of the issue.
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Cam Mott on February 07, 2013, 04:42:36 PM I'll bet it is greatly exaggerated in our minds. I imagine they were very cousiny early and then Dennis' excesses/addictions and Mikes excesses/TMiness complicated things and was wedge between them. I doubt they ever really lost their cousin love for each other. I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Mikie on February 07, 2013, 06:43:39 PM Read Gaines, Carlin, Stebbins, etc. Exactly. And I think Jason pretty much nailed it. And in addition to power struggle, I would add jealousy. Mike could never write like that. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: halblaineisgood on February 07, 2013, 07:50:13 PM .
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 07, 2013, 08:01:08 PM Read Gaines, Carlin, Stebbins, etc. Exactly. And I think Jason pretty much nailed it. And in addition to power struggle, I would add jealousy. Mike could never write like that. Let's not forget Dennis was noted in a list of grievances for one of Mike's divorce filings..... Wouldn't be such an easy thing to shrug off, I'd imagine.... Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Mikie on February 07, 2013, 08:04:01 PM No. And if my cousin messed with my wife and/or girlfriend I'd be real pissed to say the least.
And Shawn Marie Love..................back atcha Mike!! Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: I. Spaceman on February 07, 2013, 08:04:16 PM Am I supposed to hate every single person in the book? They're all heroes and villains. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Awesoman on February 07, 2013, 08:07:04 PM Read Gaines I read the paperback one many years ago. I was pretty naive about discography back then. I was also unaware of the politics, the precise chronology of Marks/Jardine, all of those tracks incorrectly attributed to the Wrecking Crew etc. I guess the ridiculous errors in this book(half-truths, gossip, laziness I don't know what to call the stuff) would not have been easy to spot back then. I picked it up again from the library recently, and it's the one with the gray cover. I'm about 3/4 of the way through, and every page has upset me. Am I supposed to hate every single person in the book? The Beach Boys (also their Family & Friends) are the most obnoxious people in the history of the world. Everyone in this book is a f***ing prick. I guess I was gonna say...the OP being a newbie, maybe he shouldn't read it . But, clearly it's upsetting only to the intermediate level fan. I'm not smart enough to correct and clarify these things on the spot, but not new enough to the story to just enjoy the book and not let all the questionable info ruin it for me. BTW, What other Beach Boys book mentions Dennis "not caring much for the blacks" . I think that remark warranted an explanation. Such a provocative thing to say as if it were irrelevant. No, it WAS irrelevant..Yeah, white folks mid century...you could generalize and say they didn't care much about blacks....but to say someone "didn't care much for blacks" casually as an aside, that's like a weird thing an old person with dementia would say. I thought the validity of the content within that book has been largely embellished. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Mikie on February 07, 2013, 08:13:30 PM I think some of the stuff in the Gaines book is true and has been confirmed by others since the book came out. Would like to hear Jon's take on the Gaines book, though, as far as the stories about Dennis go. Haven't read it in years.
Is that the book where Dennis told someone he was raped by a black guy? Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on February 07, 2013, 08:19:40 PM And in addition to power struggle, I would add jealousy. Mike could never write like that. I'm not sure Mike was aware of how good a songwriter Dennis was and that probably added to the tension. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: I. Spaceman on February 07, 2013, 08:23:00 PM Mike is the Beach Boy who gave Dennis's music the strongest praise in a public context. I've heard several comments by Mike on the excellence of Dennis's songs. One show, he calls I've Got A Friend "the best song I have ever heard".
If Mike was at all jealous of Dennis, Dennis would also be jealous of Mike as an outgoing frontman. Dennis was never able to do that, to really put himself and his music forward. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 07, 2013, 08:32:22 PM I think some of the stuff in the Gaines book is true and has been confirmed by others since the book came out. Would like to hear Jon's take on the Gaines book, though, as far as the stories about Dennis go. Haven't read it in years. Is that the book where Dennis told someone he was raped by a black guy? I think he said he was raped several times by black guys. One time on his boat by a handyman, another time at home by a plumber, etc etc. I could be remembering it wrong, but it was something along those lines. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Surfer on February 07, 2013, 08:33:54 PM Mike Love also co wrote with Dennis on Pacific Ocean Blue the main song of Pacific Ocean Blue. So tell me this why would Mike Love ask his Brother Stan to beat the crap out of Dennis and Stan had help beating up Dennis. Do you guys remember Rocky Pamplin he also beat up Dennis with Stan Love's help
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 07, 2013, 08:35:37 PM Mike Love also co wrote with Dennis on Pacific Ocean Blue the main song of Pacific Ocean Blue. So tell me this why would Mike Love ask his Brother Stan to beat the crap out of Dennis and Stan had help beating up Dennis. Do you guys remember Rocky Pamplin he also beat up Dennis with Stan Love's help I don't think Mike had anything to do with that incident. Stan and Rocky Pamplin were at a Superbowl party getting drunk and arrived a the conclusion that someone had better put Dennis in his place.... Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: halblaineisgood on February 07, 2013, 08:36:03 PM .
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 07, 2013, 08:39:06 PM Am I supposed to hate every single person in the book? They're all heroes and villains. They're all Villains. The title of the book should have been Villains. Beirdos & Villians Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Mikie on February 07, 2013, 09:25:04 PM Mike is the Beach Boy who gave Dennis's music the strongest praise in a public context. I've heard several comments by Mike on the excellence of Dennis's songs. One show, he calls I've Got A Friend "the best song I have ever heard". That was May, 1972. They were still on pretty good terms then. Fast forward to the Pacific Ocean Blue album, 1977. Dennis asked Mike to help with the lyrics to one song. After the album was released, did you ever hear or read Mike praise Dennis' album? In 1980, Mike Love called Dennis “a drugged-out no-talent parasite who we’ve sacked”. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: I. Spaceman on February 07, 2013, 10:30:43 PM I think Mike felt Dennis should have helped the band out rather than make the solo record. Understandable in a way, since the group were laboring to pound out the MIU turd.
Mike had his moments of being pissed at Dennis and saying bad things about him, but he never wrote a How Do You Sleep aimed at him, let's put it that way. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Sound of Free on February 07, 2013, 11:38:55 PM I think it was a complicated relationship that didn't get really bad until the late 70s when Dennis' addictions really took over. The Timothy White book described a friendly conversation between Dennis, Mike and Stan during the 15 Big Ones sessions, and has been alluded to, Dennis asked Mike to write lyrics to Pacific Ocean Blues.
But a shot time later, the band was split up into the "meditators" and the "free-livers" and Dennis made his anti-Mike comments on MIU. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Jay on February 08, 2013, 12:42:16 AM I live Dennis, I really do. But you have to admit, he became a pretty big jerk to deal with. Yes, Dennis was a "prisoner" to his addictions, but they altered his personality and caused erratic behavior. His drinking and drug use became out of control to the point where he began to show up to public performances drunk, which limited his ability to peform to his best potential. Which became a liability to the group, not only as a perfessional band, but also to their reputation. On a recording I have of a 1978 concert, the audience can be heard complaining about Dennis being so drunk. I wonder if any fans left the show? At least Carl publicly apologised for similar behavor. Dennis crossed a line in 1979, when the band tensions became a public spectacle in front of the audience. At least he could have tried to excuse his behavor for being drunk. Shouting out "I love Shawn" during a televised show(Long Beach 1981) was a deliberate attack on Mike for the fun of it. Not cool at all*. I don't mean to come off as being hateful to Dennis. I just wanted to point out a few reasons Mike had for getting pissed off. Dennis at times was his own best enemy. Yes, you read that right.
*Even if it was the highlight of the show. lol ;D Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: adamghost on February 08, 2013, 12:48:22 AM Mike is the Beach Boy who gave Dennis's music the strongest praise in a public context. I've heard several comments by Mike on the excellence of Dennis's songs. One show, he calls I've Got A Friend "the best song I have ever heard". That was May, 1972. They were still on pretty good terms then. Fast forward to the Pacific Ocean Blue album, 1977. Dennis asked Mike to help with the lyrics to one song. After the album was released, did you ever hear or read Mike praise Dennis' album? In 1980, Mike Love called Dennis “a drugged-out no-talent parasite who we’ve sacked”. I'm not an ML apologist but this is not cool...that's a (NME writer) Nick Kent quote, VERY broadly paraphrasing his impression of what Mike's spin on Dennis' absence was at the time. To put those words directly in Mike's mouth is totally wrong. Kent was clearly putting his own cynical spin on events. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on February 08, 2013, 01:10:15 AM I have my own (strong) feelings about Bent...er..'Kent', but taking my bias out of it, I can honestly say that was definitely not the first time. The man never met a musician he couldn't libel...
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Nicko1234 on February 08, 2013, 01:14:51 AM I live Dennis, I really do. But you have to admit, he became a pretty big jerk to deal with. Yes, Dennis was a "prisoner" to his addictions, but they altered his personality and caused erratic behavior. His drinking and drug use became out of control to the point where he began to show up to public performances drunk, which limited his ability to peform to his best potential. Which became a liability to the group, not only as a perfessional band, but also to their reputation. On a recording I have of a 1978 concert, the audience can be heard complaining about Dennis being so drunk. I wonder if any fans left the show? At least Carl publicly apologised for similar behavor. Dennis crossed a line in 1979, when the band tensions became a public spectacle in front of the audience. At least he could have tried to excuse his behavor for being drunk. Shouting out "I love Shawn" during a televised show(Long Beach 1981) was a deliberate attack on Mike for the fun of it. Not cool at all*. I don't mean to come off as being hateful to Dennis. I just wanted to point out a few reasons Mike had for getting pissed off. Dennis at times was his own best enemy. Yes, you read that right. *Even if it was the highlight of the show. lol ;D Indeed. I'm sure Dennis had many good qualities but I'm equally sure that he was a nightmare to deal with in his later years and the sort of person who anyone would hate to work alongside. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Mike's Beard on February 08, 2013, 06:10:47 AM In 1980, Mike Love called Dennis “a drugged-out no-talent parasite who we’ve sacked”. Alas by this point in his life, Mike's description of Dennis was pretty much spot on. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Rocker on February 08, 2013, 06:21:17 AM Mike is the Beach Boy who gave Dennis's music the strongest praise in a public context. I've heard several comments by Mike on the excellence of Dennis's songs. One show, he calls I've Got A Friend "the best song I have ever heard". That was May, 1972. They were still on pretty good terms then. Yes. I think I've read on this board that their relationship began to change dramatically starting in the late 60s (probably around the Manson-time I'd guess). Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: hypehat on February 08, 2013, 06:29:11 AM Thought this was about who would win in a fight.
I have skimmed as im on the phone, but i Think Dennis might be getting short shrift in this thread, going into the eighties he had an absolutely crippling addiction and that was for the most part, ignored by the band, maybe because Brian's welfare took priority ($$$) or just because Mike Love thought he was a 'parasite' (real nice, Mike) and the bands management disregarded him so much they could just go round his house and beat him to a pulp without much retribution from anyone else. But if you think that somehow Dennis was walking round Venice Beach drinking litres worth of vodka each day because he's some party animal, that's unbelievable. The man was incredibly ill. And the band made few attempts at rehab for him, but mostly they spurned him. Or at least, that's how I see it. If you read the Gaines book and not moved by those accounts of his last days, I don't know. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on February 08, 2013, 06:59:28 AM What is remarkable is that despite the really bad behaviour, Dennis has scores upon scores of people who talk about how much they really loved him, and what a lovable person he was. In fact, he probably has that reputation more than anyone else in the band.
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Cam Mott on February 08, 2013, 07:03:13 AM Thought this was about who would win in a fight. I have skimmed as im on the phone, but i Think Dennis might be getting short shrift in this thread, going into the eighties he had an absolutely crippling addiction and that was for the most part, ignored by the band, maybe because Brian's welfare took priority ($$$) or just because Mike Love thought he was a 'parasite' (real nice, Mike) and the bands management disregarded him so much they could just go round his house and beat him to a pulp without much retribution from anyone else. But if you think that somehow Dennis was walking round Venice Beach drinking litres worth of vodka each day because he's some party animal, that's unbelievable. The man was incredibly ill. And the band made few attempts at rehab for him, but mostly they spurned him. Or at least, that's how I see it. If you read the Gaines book and not moved by those accounts of his last days, I don't know. You can't help a guy who won't be helped, if that is the way it was. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on February 08, 2013, 07:05:51 AM Thought this was about who would win in a fight. I have skimmed as im on the phone, but i Think Dennis might be getting short shrift in this thread, going into the eighties he had an absolutely crippling addiction and that was for the most part, ignored by the band, maybe because Brian's welfare took priority ($$$) or just because Mike Love thought he was a 'parasite' (real nice, Mike) and the bands management disregarded him so much they could just go round his house and beat him to a pulp without much retribution from anyone else. But if you think that somehow Dennis was walking round Venice Beach drinking litres worth of vodka each day because he's some party animal, that's unbelievable. The man was incredibly ill. And the band made few attempts at rehab for him, but mostly they spurned him. Or at least, that's how I see it. If you read the Gaines book and not moved by those accounts of his last days, I don't know. You can't help a guy who won't be helped, if that is the way it was. What an odd response to what Hypehat wrote. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Banana on February 08, 2013, 07:49:11 AM Yes...Dennis was no saint...but it should be understood that he suffered from his own form of mental illness. I don't know if that is an excuse for his behavior...but he was clearly ill on several levels. Addiction is a nasty beast...and one of the hardest parts of getting past it is admitting that there is a problem and accepting that you need help. From everything I've read...I'm not sure Dennis ever got to that point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the band make several attempts to get him into rehab...none of which lasted very long. I thought there was even talk of putting Dennis under the care the good Dr. "Gene" Landy. I think his story his very sad. He always came across to me as someone who was maybe too sensitive...maybe as someone who loved too much. I think it came across in his music...much of which is very good...but I also wonder how much that fed his mental illness.
My thought on Dennis and Mike is that Mike, like just about everyone else, cared about Dennis...but it got to the point where it probably seemed very hopeless. Consider that Dennis would very often show up to concerts high or drunk or not at all. Maybe Mike and the band didn't approach the problem in the right way...but even Mike is human. As far as Stan and Rocky go...they're just a couple of punks... Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Mikie on February 08, 2013, 09:21:06 AM Yes. I think I've read on this board that their relationship began to change dramatically starting in the late 60s (probably around the Manson-time I'd guess). Surprising, Somebody like Jon may confirm this. But Mike, (who sang the lead on one of Dennis' three songs on 20/20) had a vote on which songs were included on 20/20, in addition to Dennis' four songs on Sunflower (and the two on the CT&P album). Edit. OK, not surprising Mike would be less than cordial with Dennis after the Manson stuff, but I can't remember him outwardly negative towards Dennis, at least in public. Maybe that's one of the first of many incidents that started making their relationship go sour. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Mikie on February 08, 2013, 09:25:49 AM In 1980, Mike Love called Dennis “a drugged-out no-talent parasite who we’ve sacked”. Alas by this point in his life, Mike's description of Dennis was pretty much spot on. I don't think so. I'd never use the words "no talent" to describe Dennis Wilson. And a "parasite"? That's really kinda extreme. That's just hater crap coming from Mike. I won't argue about the drugged-out part....... Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Sound of Free on February 08, 2013, 09:52:46 AM The man was incredibly ill. And the band made few attempts at rehab for him, but mostly they spurned him. Or at least, that's how I see it. I'm with Cam. You can't help a guy who won't be helped. They tried repeatedly to get him to clean up, and they (or at least Carl) never stopped. Unless I'm mistaken, Carl had a standing offer to Dennis that if he would go to get help, the band would fly him to any rehab facility he wanted and pay for all the treatment. He also offered to buy the Harmony back for him if he would clean up. I'm sure Carl didn't WANT to kick him out of the band at the end, but he had become such a disruption that Carl had no choice. And Carl had the January 1984 intervention planned. He knew Dennis was drinking himself to death but had no reason to think he would be gone before he had a chance to do the intervention, which I think Jim Guercio was also going to be a part of. And if Dennis HAD gotten sober, Carl would have made sure he was back into the band, no matter what Mike thought about it. But Dennis had to do his part, and he was either unable or unwilling to do it. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Mike's Beard on February 08, 2013, 09:57:28 AM If Mike had said that pre 1980 I'd strongly disagree but by 1980 Dennis had pissed all his talent away.
If people think Mike was harsh, just imagine if the tables had been reversed and Mike had started a sexual relationship with Carnie a few years later. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 08, 2013, 09:59:06 AM The Pandora's Box of BBs questions has been opened...
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on February 08, 2013, 10:13:24 AM If Mike had said that pre 1980 I'd strongly disagree but by 1980 Dennis had pissed all his talent away. If people think Mike was harsh, just imagine if the tables had been reversed and Mike had started a sexual relationship with Carnie a few years later. Was Dennis's relationship with Shawn the source of his anger? I thought Mike denied that Shawn was his daughter. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Rocker on February 08, 2013, 11:27:09 AM If Mike had said that pre 1980 I'd strongly disagree but by 1980 Dennis had pissed all his talent away. If people think Mike was harsh, just imagine if the tables had been reversed and Mike had started a sexual relationship with Carnie a few years later. Was Dennis's relationship with Shawn the source of his anger? I thought Mike denied that Shawn was his daughter. Well, afaik Dennis also had sex with (at least) one of Mike's wifes. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Jason on February 08, 2013, 12:52:08 PM If Mike had said that pre 1980 I'd strongly disagree but by 1980 Dennis had pissed all his talent away. If people think Mike was harsh, just imagine if the tables had been reversed and Mike had started a sexual relationship with Carnie a few years later. Now THAT is just a frightening idea... Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 08, 2013, 01:13:04 PM Speaking of Beach Boy shenanigans: wasn't Brian running around in 1975-76 era telling Karen Lamm that Dennis wasn't good enough for her and that she should be with HIM?
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: halblaineisgood on February 08, 2013, 01:27:16 PM .
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Cam Mott on February 08, 2013, 02:27:58 PM Didn't Carl stomp a unicorn to death?
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: I. Spaceman on February 08, 2013, 02:32:27 PM Al made all the changes in the original Star Wars trilogy for the Special Edition.
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Nicko1234 on February 08, 2013, 02:37:17 PM Back on topic...
As others have said, anyone with mental health problems needs to want to help themselves. Dennis unfortunately didn't and so no blame can be apportioned to Carl or the others. According to Brian, Dennis slept with his wife, one of Mike's wives and Al's wife. Dennis was lucky he was allowed to stay in the band for as long as he was... Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 08, 2013, 02:42:37 PM Not very thoughtful wives, eh?
Or was it just an understood rule that Dennis was so irresistible: wives sleeping with him was an accepted collateral risk in Beach Boys land? Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Nicko1234 on February 08, 2013, 02:54:08 PM Not very thoughtful wives, eh? Or was it just an understood rule that Dennis was so irresistible: wives sleeping with him was a accepted collateral risk in Beach Boys land? The reason (among other things) why they got divorced presumably... Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 08, 2013, 02:57:23 PM Not very thoughtful wives, eh? Or was it just an understood rule that Dennis was so irresistible: wives sleeping with him was a accepted collateral risk in Beach Boys land? The reason (among other things) why they got divorced presumably... Yeah, you can't blame all that on Dennis completely unless he was going around raping people.... But I wonder if any of these occurrences happened before they were Beach Boy wives and were "fair game" around the Beach Boys camp.... Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Nicko1234 on February 08, 2013, 02:59:32 PM Yeah, you can't blame all that on Dennis completely unless he was going around raping people.... But I wonder if any of these occurrences happened before they were Beach Boy wives and were "fair game" around the Beach Boys camp.... With Marilyn and Lynda that would be a bit of a long shot... Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 08, 2013, 03:06:25 PM Yeah, you can't blame all that on Dennis completely unless he was going around raping people.... But I wonder if any of these occurrences happened before they were Beach Boy wives and were "fair game" around the Beach Boys camp.... With Marilyn and Lynda that would be a bit of a long shot... I wonder if that's why Dennis always left the stage when they played Lady Lynda :lol Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: urbanite on February 08, 2013, 03:18:56 PM If it's true that Dennis slept with one of Mike's wives, I don't blame Mike for hating Dennis. That's not something most people ever get over, and then the whole episode with Shawn, painful.
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Banana on February 08, 2013, 04:21:52 PM Back on topic... As others have said, anyone with mental health problems needs to want to help themselves. Dennis unfortunately didn't and so no blame can be apportioned to Carl or the others. According to Brian, Dennis slept with his wife, one of Mike's wives and Al's wife. Dennis was lucky he was allowed to stay in the band for as long as he was... ...but didn't Brian also sleep with his wife's sister? Who needs soap operas when you have the Beach Boys! Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 08, 2013, 05:14:54 PM Back on topic... As others have said, anyone with mental health problems needs to want to help themselves. Dennis unfortunately didn't and so no blame can be apportioned to Carl or the others. According to Brian, Dennis slept with his wife, one of Mike's wives and Al's wife. Dennis was lucky he was allowed to stay in the band for as long as he was... ...but didn't Brian also sleep with his wife's sister? Who needs soap operas when you have the Beach Boys! Ah! Grand idea: an NBC daytime soap (with typical soap opera production values) about The Beach Boys circa the 1970's - 80's!!!!! ..... Hell, I'd watch that!!!! Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: SamMcK on February 08, 2013, 06:35:55 PM I've imagined the long running Beach Boys soap opera in my head and trust me it's the best show ever! :smokin I can even imagine an old repeat of an episode from 1965 where the band is getting interrupted by Murry and Brian flips his lid! This soap opera has been going on for over 51 years, Brian's got to break Ken Barlow's record sometime soon for longest running soap character eventually.
Right now the latest episodes main focus is on Al working on a new album to be released in 2026, Dave shopping for new sunglasses and Brian eating birthday cake and listening to the 60's music channel. Mike and Bruce have asked their promoters to get a gig at a Minnesota McDonalds. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: dwtherealbb on February 08, 2013, 09:56:05 PM If Mike had said that pre 1980 I'd strongly disagree but by 1980 Dennis had pissed all his talent away. If people think Mike was harsh, just imagine if the tables had been reversed and Mike had started a sexual relationship with Carnie a few years later. Now THAT is just a frightening idea... if he was going to bone one of Brian's two daughters, it would definitely have been Wendy. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: dwtherealbb on February 08, 2013, 09:59:58 PM Back on topic... As others have said, anyone with mental health problems needs to want to help themselves. Dennis unfortunately didn't and so no blame can be apportioned to Carl or the others. According to Brian, Dennis slept with his wife, one of Mike's wives and Al's wife. Dennis was lucky he was allowed to stay in the band for as long as he was... I thought that Brian is the only one who claimed Marilyn slept with Dennis. Every other credible source has denied it. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Cam Mott on February 09, 2013, 03:41:09 AM Thought this was about who would win in a fight. I have skimmed as im on the phone, but i Think Dennis might be getting short shrift in this thread, going into the eighties he had an absolutely crippling addiction and that was for the most part, ignored by the band, maybe because Brian's welfare took priority ($$$) or just because Mike Love thought he was a 'parasite' (real nice, Mike) and the bands management disregarded him so much they could just go round his house and beat him to a pulp without much retribution from anyone else. But if you think that somehow Dennis was walking round Venice Beach drinking litres worth of vodka each day because he's some party animal, that's unbelievable. The man was incredibly ill. And the band made few attempts at rehab for him, but mostly they spurned him. Or at least, that's how I see it. If you read the Gaines book and not moved by those accounts of his last days, I don't know. You can't help a guy who won't be helped, if that is the way it was. What an odd response to what Hypehat wrote. What an odd response to what Cam wrote. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: hypehat on February 09, 2013, 04:57:47 AM Thought this was about who would win in a fight. I have skimmed as im on the phone, but i Think Dennis might be getting short shrift in this thread, going into the eighties he had an absolutely crippling addiction and that was for the most part, ignored by the band, maybe because Brian's welfare took priority ($$$) or just because Mike Love thought he was a 'parasite' (real nice, Mike) and the bands management disregarded him so much they could just go round his house and beat him to a pulp without much retribution from anyone else. But if you think that somehow Dennis was walking round Venice Beach drinking ljitres worth of vodka each day because he's some party animal, that's unbelievable. The man was incredibly ill. And the band made few attempts at rehab for him, but mostly they spurned him. Or at least, that's how I see it. If you read the Gaines book and not moved by those accounts of his last days, I don't know. You can't help a guy who won't be helped, if that is the way it was. Not like Brian, who wanted to be cured so much they had to put him under virtual house arrest.... twice. Going 'well, he brought it on himself' seems to deny that 'the beach boys' as a unit had little or no interest in keeping Dennis clean so long as they had a replacement drummer. Carl's offer of rehab seems woefully inadequate, to be perfectly honest, especially seeing as they forced Brian to do it. But then, Brian made them money. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Rocker on February 09, 2013, 05:44:59 AM If Mike had said that pre 1980 I'd strongly disagree but by 1980 Dennis had pissed all his talent away. If people think Mike was harsh, just imagine if the tables had been reversed and Mike had started a sexual relationship with Carnie a few years later. Now THAT is just a frightening idea... if he was going to bone one of Brian's two daughters, it would definitely have been Wendy. Well, but Carnie admitted that she had a crush on Dennis..... Carl's offer of rehab seems woefully inadequate, to be perfectly honest, especially seeing as they forced Brian to do it. But then, Brian made them money. We have absolutely no idea about it. Times were very different and what is seen as serious life-threatening sickness today was seen as "problems" back then. Plus Dennis and Brian were two totally different personalities. You can force Brian to go into therapy but with Dennis you couldn't. I can't stand this "but Brian made them more money so they rather helped him"-talk. These guys were brothers/family and the love between Carl and Dennis was just as strong (afaik) as the love between Brian and Carl. I don't think they were thinking about what would become of the band but were concerned about their brothers/cousins. Of course it's a very difficult situation for us to understand because the band/business and the family were so very close that you can't really draw a line between them. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Cam Mott on February 09, 2013, 07:02:23 AM Thought this was about who would win in a fight. I have skimmed as im on the phone, but i Think Dennis might be getting short shrift in this thread, going into the eighties he had an absolutely crippling addiction and that was for the most part, ignored by the band, maybe because Brian's welfare took priority ($$$) or just because Mike Love thought he was a 'parasite' (real nice, Mike) and the bands management disregarded him so much they could just go round his house and beat him to a pulp without much retribution from anyone else. But if you think that somehow Dennis was walking round Venice Beach drinking ljitres worth of vodka each day because he's some party animal, that's unbelievable. The man was incredibly ill. And the band made few attempts at rehab for him, but mostly they spurned him. Or at least, that's how I see it. If you read the Gaines book and not moved by those accounts of his last days, I don't know. You can't help a guy who won't be helped, if that is the way it was. Not like Brian, who wanted to be cured so much they had to put him under virtual house arrest.... twice. Going 'well, he brought it on himself' seems to deny that 'the beach boys' as a unit had little or no interest in keeping Dennis clean so long as they had a replacement drummer. Carl's offer of rehab seems woefully inadequate, to be perfectly honest, especially seeing as they forced Brian to do it. But then, Brian made them money. Well none of us know what really went on but apparently Brian was more cooperative in ways that got him help. It seems the Boys get too quickly and freely criticised to me. Maybe it was the difference between mental illness and addictive behavior with Brian and Dennis, I don't know. Maybe wife/girlfriend support might have made a difference at one point. Maybe Dennis' support outside the group wasn't there. I'm guessing it was all there however and ultimately came down to Dennis and despite whatever the support and sacrifice of the Boys and wives and friends they were reduced to watching Dennis fall apart despite all of their concern and help. I wasn't there. I know it happens and it is tragic. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 09, 2013, 10:57:19 AM Let's keep in mind (and I know this from experience and from almost everyone's family I know) most families have a tough time even TALKING about such problems out in the open let-alone formulating a workable/realistic plan to help the family member in question....
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Sheriff John Stone on February 09, 2013, 11:36:14 AM I think there were also some legal issues involved. I remember reading an interview or a quote from Brian regarding the 1975-76 Landy intervention. Brian said something to the effect that Marilyn was talking about institutionalizing him around that time, which scared Brian, and was a factor with him agreeing to Landy's care. As his wife, Marilyn could've had Brian committed. Living with Brian, she had sufficient evidence.
With the second Landy intervention in 1982, again they had enough "on Brian" to have him committed, or have a conservator appointed, which, of course, later became an issue. Other than firing Dennis from the band which hurt his pocketbook (or did he continue to get paid?), I don't know if there was much the guys/family could do - legally - to force Dennis's rehabilitation. They might've been able to pursue the conservatorship issue, but that wouldn't have been easy. It's a shame Dennis didn't have a spouse at that time who could've advocated for him and force the (rehabilitation) issue if you will... Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 09, 2013, 12:02:32 PM If I remember correctly, in "Wouldn't It Be Nice" ...... there's a scene early in the book where Dennis bursts into Brian's room with some groupie and goes digging through drawers for royalty checks to go cash and hauls off with like a stack in each hand.... It seems it would have been mighty difficult to force Dennis to do anything if he didn't want to. Also, I remember reading that Dennis would indeed agree to rehab here and there but just wouldn't stay very long. Seems he was just born constantly restless. That right there in itself would make kicking habits very hard.
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Nicko1234 on February 09, 2013, 12:53:56 PM Not like Brian, who wanted to be cured so much they had to put him under virtual house arrest.... twice. Going 'well, he brought it on himself' seems to deny that 'the beach boys' as a unit had little or no interest in keeping Dennis clean so long as they had a replacement drummer. Carl's offer of rehab seems woefully inadequate, to be perfectly honest, especially seeing as they forced Brian to do it. But then, Brian made them money. I think that's nonsense and shows a complete lack of understanding for those who have tried to help friends and loved ones who suffer from mental health problems and /or addictions. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 09, 2013, 01:03:29 PM I think it also pays to consider the fact that Brian was in much worse shape than Dennis (up until Dennis' last couple of years maybe). Wasn't it basically accepted that Brian would likely die soon whereas Dennis seemed to basically be indestructible until much later? It's no surprise if Brian was made a priority for help, this being the case.
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: hypehat on February 09, 2013, 04:37:56 PM Not like Brian, who wanted to be cured so much they had to put him under virtual house arrest.... twice. Going 'well, he brought it on himself' seems to deny that 'the beach boys' as a unit had little or no interest in keeping Dennis clean so long as they had a replacement drummer. Carl's offer of rehab seems woefully inadequate, to be perfectly honest, especially seeing as they forced Brian to do it. But then, Brian made them money. I think that's nonsense and shows a complete lack of understanding for those who have tried to help friends and loved ones who suffer from mental health problems and /or addictions. You're probably right, to an extent, but then this.... ...whereas Dennis seemed to basically be indestructible until much later? isn't a helpful factor either. If Dennis' partyhardymarty image and lifestyle seems normal, as it was up until 1979 or so, why send him to rehab? What is noticeable is that Brian, who was constantly viewed as a dealbreaker going into record deals, concerts, and songwriting concerns, was the centre of attention. The band paid for his therapy, therapy which he was forced into. Dennis had a vague promise that if you want to go to rehab, we'll pay for it. But in the meantime, you're fired. Urgh, not expressing self clearly. Maybe Dennis burned his bridges. But a vague promise of rehab doth not support make. A lot of urgent and key points from Rocker and The Artist Formally Known As Erik H Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on February 09, 2013, 04:51:24 PM Not like Brian, who wanted to be cured so much they had to put him under virtual house arrest.... twice. Going 'well, he brought it on himself' seems to deny that 'the beach boys' as a unit had little or no interest in keeping Dennis clean so long as they had a replacement drummer. Carl's offer of rehab seems woefully inadequate, to be perfectly honest, especially seeing as they forced Brian to do it. But then, Brian made them money. I think that's nonsense and shows a complete lack of understanding for those who have tried to help friends and loved ones who suffer from mental health problems and /or addictions. You're probably right, to an extent, but then this.... ...whereas Dennis seemed to basically be indestructible until much later? isn't a helpful factor either. If Dennis' partyhardymarty image and lifestyle seems normal, as it was up until 1979 or so, why send him to rehab? What is noticeable is that Brian, who was constantly viewed as a dealbreaker going into record deals, concerts, and songwriting concerns, was the centre of attention. The band paid for his therapy, therapy which he was forced into. Dennis had a vague promise that if you want to go to rehab, we'll pay for it. But in the meantime, you're fired. Urgh, not expressing self clearly. Maybe Dennis burned his bridges. But a vague promise of rehab doth not support make. A lot of urgent and key points from Rocker and The Artist Formally Known As Erik H Hey! That Erik H guy has a full head of hair! Can't be me!!! What I mean is: long before Dennis was in bad shape, Brian was almost 400 pounds and clearly (moneymaker/dealbreaker or not) at a point of no return and him getting back onto something of a road to recovery was a long haul process.... Brian was also clearly troubled for a long long time..... Then in the meantime, much later Dennis rapidly degenerated while everyone was busy worrying about Brian..... Didn't help that Dennis managed to piss people off more than Brian... He was also the band's drummer. It's almost impossible to overstate how negatively an unsteady drummer can derail/enrage a band! I don't think anyone lost any sleep if Brian just sat there and pawed an unplugged keyboard or actually switched it on, but Dennis falling over the drums was sheer panic and embarrassment. Band's can be petty and selfish organizations, family or not. I'm sure they all loved and wanted to help Dennis, but I can't imagine even confronting his problems was ever easy. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Nicko1234 on February 09, 2013, 05:11:09 PM Wasn't there a quote from one of Dennis's friends that there was a plan to get Landy to work with Dennis but they knew that Dennis would never agree to it?
I do agree also that it took the band a long time to really get Brian treatment. He had first shown signs of mental health problems in around 1964 or 1965 and it took years before he was properly treated. That's not because the band didn't care but because they didn't know what to do. Even now people struggle to deal with mental health issues and back then it must have been even more difficult. Dennis had exhibited serious problems for a much shorter period as a previous poster remarked. I'm sure Carl (and Audree and other family members and friends) wanted to help him but there is nothing you can do when a person won't help themselves... Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: hypehat on February 09, 2013, 06:07:07 PM That's not because the band didn't care but because they didn't know what to do. That's the most likely explanation. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Kurosawa on February 09, 2013, 07:24:07 PM That's not because the band didn't care but because they didn't know what to do. That's the most likely explanation. Yeah, you can't really look at Brian or Denny's problems with a 2013 perspective. Both mental health and substance abuse therapy was in infancy back then, and in the case of Dennis, he was just steady enough for just long enough to get himself killed. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Surfer on February 09, 2013, 07:34:40 PM I thought of something! How about a tv movie about Dennis Wilson! I mean a perspective of his life!
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Jay on February 09, 2013, 08:32:59 PM There already was one. It's called Summer Dreams. ;D
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: dwtherealbb on February 10, 2013, 12:33:51 AM the thing about Dennis was that I've heard a lot of contradicting stories on him. On one hand he seemed to be a chill type of person, almost like the Dude in the Big Lebowski. He seemed like a perfectly nice and generous guy, who was willing to talk to complete strangers in public (and sometimes let them in his house). On the other hand he seemed to have the worst temper in the group and was one who was always prone to outbursts. Whether it was getting in fights with his father or giving profanity laced interviews, he seemed to snap easily. Everything I read on him gives me the impression that he was like a wild animal that couldn't be contained. He probably would have driven anyone insane.
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: AndrewHickey on February 10, 2013, 04:24:15 AM That's not because the band didn't care but because they didn't know what to do. That's the most likely explanation. Not only the most likely explanation, but the most charitable one. None of us actually know what the various people involved were thinking, and I think it's pretty unpleasant to go around ascribing the worst possible motives to them. Of course, if the band *were* only concerned about Brian as a moneymaker, and not as a person, then that backfired somewhat, didn't it, since they spent the next thirty years paying him money without him having to turn up to shows, and with him being completely unproductive as a writer for the band. From a purely financial perspective, they'd have been better off if Brian had died. So if that *was* their only motive, they've been punished for it. But I sincerely doubt it was. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Cam Mott on February 10, 2013, 07:25:51 AM It's probably one of those fan stories that don't hold water in reality. I don't know what corporate policy was before 1993 but Dennis probably got paid just as Brian did or any of the principles of BRI did for touring or not. They might have even had the same medical/psych insurance etc.. Don't know, I'm just saying they were equal partners in the same corporation.
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Moon Dawg on February 10, 2013, 04:41:49 PM Apologies if this was noted earlier, but wasn't there more or less a "stud competition" between Mike and Dennis on the road? All the guys liked girls but Dennis and Mike were horndogs. There may have been an ongoing rivalry in that regard. Juvenile to be sure, but these were young men on top of the world.
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: clack on February 10, 2013, 04:58:54 PM Apologies if this was noted earlier, but wasn't there more or less a "stud competition" between Mike and Dennis on the road? All the guys liked girls but Dennis and Mike were horndogs. There may have been an ongoing rivalry in that regard. Juvenile to be sure, but these were young men on top of the world. I remember reading that competition with Brian Ferry over girls is what led to Brian Eno leaving Roxy Music. Similar thing happened with Steely Dan -- Fagen and Becker, the songwriters, grew pissed with the other members of the band for pulling more girls than they did, so they ditched the band in favor of a rotating cast of studio pros.This according to Eno, and Fagen and Becker. Can't believe it's the only reasons for their respective band estrangements, though. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: hypehat on February 10, 2013, 06:01:47 PM Apologies if this was noted earlier, but wasn't there more or less a "stud competition" between Mike and Dennis on the road? All the guys liked girls but Dennis and Mike were horndogs. There may have been an ongoing rivalry in that regard. Juvenile to be sure, but these were young men on top of the world. I remember reading that competition with Brian Ferry over girls is what led to Brian Eno leaving Roxy Music. Similar thing happened with Steely Dan -- Fagen and Becker, the songwriters, grew pissed with the other members of the band for pulling more girls than they did, so they ditched the band in favor of a rotating cast of studio pros.This according to Eno, and Fagen and Becker. Can't believe it's the only reasons for their respective band estrangements, though. Just think, the invention of Ambient music was down to Brian Eno not getting enough p*ssy. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: hypehat on February 10, 2013, 06:05:40 PM It's probably one of those fan stories that don't hold water in reality. I don't know what corporate policy was before 1993 but Dennis probably got paid just as Brian did or any of the principles of BRI did for touring or not. They might have even had the same medical/psych insurance etc.. Don't know, I'm just saying they were equal partners in the same corporation. Wasn't Dennis getting pretty strapped for cash towards the end? He had to sell The Harmony cos he couldn't keep up the payments, as I recall, granted that there's a bit pretty big gap between a comfortable lifestyle and paying off a yacht. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Cam Mott on February 10, 2013, 07:35:57 PM It's probably one of those fan stories that don't hold water in reality. I don't know what corporate policy was before 1993 but Dennis probably got paid just as Brian did or any of the principles of BRI did for touring or not. They might have even had the same medical/psych insurance etc.. Don't know, I'm just saying they were equal partners in the same corporation. Wasn't Dennis getting pretty strapped for cash towards the end? He had to sell The Harmony cos he couldn't keep up the payments, as I recall, granted that there's a bit pretty big gap between a comfortable lifestyle and paying off a yacht. I don't know how Denny was at money management or borrowing. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Mike's Beard on February 11, 2013, 02:33:41 AM Didn't Dennis sell his shares to the group to cover existing debts? Andrew or Jon?
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: hypehat on February 11, 2013, 03:40:54 AM It's probably one of those fan stories that don't hold water in reality. I don't know what corporate policy was before 1993 but Dennis probably got paid just as Brian did or any of the principles of BRI did for touring or not. They might have even had the same medical/psych insurance etc.. Don't know, I'm just saying they were equal partners in the same corporation. Wasn't Dennis getting pretty strapped for cash towards the end? He had to sell The Harmony cos he couldn't keep up the payments, as I recall, granted that there's a bit pretty big gap between a comfortable lifestyle and paying off a yacht. I don't know how Denny was at money management or borrowing. Me neither, just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks, tbh. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: Cam Mott on February 11, 2013, 03:48:57 AM Didn't Dennis sell his shares to the group to cover existing debts? Andrew or Jon? Or did they assume his shares in lieu of debt after his death? Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: AndrewHickey on February 11, 2013, 04:06:47 AM Didn't Dennis sell his shares to the group to cover existing debts? Andrew or Jon? Or did they assume his shares in lieu of debt after his death? That's what I've always read -- that they paid off all his estate's debts in return for his share of Brother. Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: MBE on February 11, 2013, 11:18:35 PM Dennis was in bad shape by 1978 and even went to rehab that year. He recovered for a short time, but by the summer of 1979 it was all downhill. Brian had different problems, and more importantly he fought them. Dennis had severe self esteem issues that got in the way of his fighting his way out. Mike and Dennis both did some awful things to each other, but they were able to coexist fairly well until Dennis' performances began to suffer. Then Mike did have a gripe professionally and I can't blame him. Even as late as 1976 they did things like joint interviews that would have been outrageous to suggest by 1979. I love Dennis, think he was a great artist, and probably a lot more caring than Mike in general, but I wouldn't have wanted to work with him his last six years myself. When you have Carli, and Hanlon getting fed up, you know it was more than Mike being jealous. Of course it could be said that if Mike hadn't given Dennis an ultimatum about performing solo maybe Dennis wouldn't have been so difficult later, at least directly. I guess I see both sides of it.
Title: Re: Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love Post by: The Shift on February 11, 2013, 11:49:38 PM From a family perspective, suspect Brian was seen as the fragile, sensitive, shy, delicate flower while Dennis was the gregarious, confident, naughty one. While Brian had his problems in the public eye, Dennis never lost the tough guy persona. And I suspect that while the other members of the band realised Brian had a problem, in other ways they were too close to Dennis and figured he was strong enough to get over his own problems. By he time family realised what friends already knew, it was too late.
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