Dennis Wilson vs Mike Love

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I have my own (strong) feelings about Bent...er..'Kent', but taking my bias out of it, I can honestly say that was definitely not the first time. The man never met a musician he couldn't libel...

[Nicko1234]

I live Dennis, I really do. But you have to admit, he became a pretty big jerk to deal with. Yes, Dennis was a "prisoner" to his addictions, but they altered his personality and caused erratic behavior. His drinking and drug use became out of control to the point where he began to show up to public performances drunk, which limited his ability to peform to his best potential. Which became a liability to the group, not only as a perfessional band, but also to their reputation. On a recording I have of a 1978 concert, the audience can be heard complaining about Dennis being so drunk. I wonder if any fans left the show? At least Carl publicly apologised for similar behavor. Dennis crossed a line in 1979, when the band tensions became a public spectacle in front of the audience. At least he could have tried to excuse his behavor for being drunk. Shouting out "I love Shawn" during a televised show(Long Beach 1981) was a deliberate attack on Mike for the fun of it. Not cool at all*. I don't mean to come off as being hateful to Dennis. I just wanted to point out a few reasons Mike had for getting pissed off. Dennis at times was his own best enemy. Yes, you read that right.

*Even if it was the highlight of the show. lol 

Indeed.

I'm sure Dennis had many good qualities but I'm equally sure that he was a nightmare to deal with in his later years and the sort of person who anyone would hate to work alongside.

[Mike's Beard]

In 1980, Mike Love called Dennis “a drugged-out no-talent parasite who we’ve sacked”.

Alas by this point in his life, Mike's description of Dennis was pretty much spot on.

[Rocker]

Mike is the Beach Boy who gave Dennis's music the strongest praise in a public context. I've heard several comments by Mike on the excellence of Dennis's songs. One show, he calls I've Got A Friend "the best song I have ever heard".

That was May, 1972. They were still on pretty good terms then.

Yes. I think I've read on this board that their relationship began to change dramatically starting in the late 60s (probably around the Manson-time I'd guess).

[hypehat]

Thought this was about who would win in a fight.

I have skimmed as im on the phone, but i Think Dennis might be getting short shrift in this thread, going into the eighties he had an absolutely crippling addiction and that was for the most part, ignored by the band, maybe because Brian's welfare took priority ($$$) or just because Mike Love thought he was a 'parasite' (real nice, Mike) and the bands management disregarded him so much they could just go round his house and beat him to a pulp without much retribution from anyone else.

But if you think that somehow Dennis was walking round Venice Beach drinking litres worth of vodka each day because he's some party animal, that's unbelievable. The man was incredibly ill. And the band made few attempts at rehab for him, but mostly they spurned him. Or at least, that's how I see it. If you read the Gaines book and not moved by those accounts of his last days, I don't know.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

What is remarkable is that despite the really bad behaviour, Dennis has scores upon scores of people who talk about how much they really loved him, and what a lovable person he was. In fact, he probably has that reputation more than anyone else in the band.

[Cam Mott]

Thought this was about who would win in a fight.

I have skimmed as im on the phone, but i Think Dennis might be getting short shrift in this thread, going into the eighties he had an absolutely crippling addiction and that was for the most part, ignored by the band, maybe because Brian's welfare took priority ($$$) or just because Mike Love thought he was a 'parasite' (real nice, Mike) and the bands management disregarded him so much they could just go round his house and beat him to a pulp without much retribution from anyone else.

But if you think that somehow Dennis was walking round Venice Beach drinking litres worth of vodka each day because he's some party animal, that's unbelievable. The man was incredibly ill. And the band made few attempts at rehab for him, but mostly they spurned him. Or at least, that's how I see it. If you read the Gaines book and not moved by those accounts of his last days, I don't know.

You can't help a guy who won't be helped, if that is the way it was.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Thought this was about who would win in a fight.

I have skimmed as im on the phone, but i Think Dennis might be getting short shrift in this thread, going into the eighties he had an absolutely crippling addiction and that was for the most part, ignored by the band, maybe because Brian's welfare took priority ($$$) or just because Mike Love thought he was a 'parasite' (real nice, Mike) and the bands management disregarded him so much they could just go round his house and beat him to a pulp without much retribution from anyone else.

But if you think that somehow Dennis was walking round Venice Beach drinking litres worth of vodka each day because he's some party animal, that's unbelievable. The man was incredibly ill. And the band made few attempts at rehab for him, but mostly they spurned him. Or at least, that's how I see it. If you read the Gaines book and not moved by those accounts of his last days, I don't know.

You can't help a guy who won't be helped, if that is the way it was.

What an odd response to what Hypehat wrote.

[Banana]

Yes...Dennis was no saint...but it should be understood that he suffered from his own form of mental illness.  I don't know if that is an excuse for his behavior...but he was clearly ill on several levels.  Addiction is a nasty beast...and one of the hardest parts of getting past it is admitting that there is a problem and accepting that you need help.  From everything I've read...I'm not sure Dennis ever got to that point.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the band make several attempts to get him into rehab...none of which lasted very long.  I thought there was even talk of putting Dennis under the care the good Dr. "Gene" Landy.  I think his story his very sad.  He always came across to me as someone who was maybe too sensitive...maybe as someone who loved too much.  I think it came across in his music...much of which is very good...but I also wonder how much that fed his mental illness.

My thought on Dennis and Mike is that Mike, like just about everyone else, cared about Dennis...but it got to the point where it probably seemed very hopeless.  Consider that Dennis would very often show up to concerts high or drunk or not at all.  Maybe Mike and the band didn't approach the problem in the right way...but even Mike is human.

As far as Stan and Rocky go...they're just a couple of punks...

[Mikie]

Yes. I think I've read on this board that their relationship began to change dramatically starting in the late 60s (probably around the Manson-time I'd guess).

Surprising, Somebody like Jon may confirm this.

But Mike, (who sang the lead on one of Dennis' three songs on 20/20) had a vote on which songs were included on 20/20, in addition to Dennis' four songs on Sunflower (and the two on the CT&P album).

Edit. OK, not surprising Mike would be less than cordial with Dennis after the Manson stuff, but I can't remember him outwardly negative towards Dennis, at least in public. Maybe that's one of the first of many incidents that started making their relationship go sour.

[Mikie]

In 1980, Mike Love called Dennis “a drugged-out no-talent parasite who we’ve sacked”.

Alas by this point in his life, Mike's description of Dennis was pretty much spot on.

I don't think so. I'd never use the words "no talent" to describe Dennis Wilson.  And a "parasite"? That's really kinda extreme. That's just hater crap coming from Mike. I won't argue about the drugged-out part.......

[Sound of Free]

The man was incredibly ill. And the band made few attempts at rehab for him, but mostly they spurned him. Or at least, that's how I see it.

I'm with Cam. You can't help a guy who won't be helped.

They tried repeatedly to get him to clean up, and they (or at least Carl) never stopped. Unless I'm mistaken, Carl had a standing offer to Dennis that if he would go to get help, the band would fly him to any rehab facility he wanted and pay for all the treatment. He also offered to buy the Harmony back for him if he would clean up.

I'm sure Carl didn't WANT to kick him out of the band at the end, but he had become such a disruption that Carl had no choice. And Carl had the January 1984 intervention planned. He knew Dennis was drinking himself to death but had no reason to think he would be gone before he had a chance to do the intervention, which I think Jim Guercio was also going to be a part of.

And if Dennis HAD gotten sober, Carl would have made sure he was back into the band, no matter what Mike thought about it.

But Dennis had to do his part, and he was either unable or unwilling to do it.

[Mike's Beard]

If Mike had said that pre 1980 I'd strongly disagree but by 1980 Dennis had pissed all his talent away.

If people think Mike was harsh, just imagine if the tables had been reversed and Mike had started a sexual relationship with Carnie a few years later.

[SMiLE Brian]

The Pandora's Box of BBs questions has been opened...

[Chocolate Shake Man]

If Mike had said that pre 1980 I'd strongly disagree but by 1980 Dennis had pissed all his talent away.

If people think Mike was harsh, just imagine if the tables had been reversed and Mike had started a sexual relationship with Carnie a few years later.

Was Dennis's relationship with Shawn the source of his anger? I thought Mike denied that Shawn was his daughter.

[Rocker]

If Mike had said that pre 1980 I'd strongly disagree but by 1980 Dennis had pissed all his talent away.

If people think Mike was harsh, just imagine if the tables had been reversed and Mike had started a sexual relationship with Carnie a few years later.

Was Dennis's relationship with Shawn the source of his anger? I thought Mike denied that Shawn was his daughter.

Well, afaik Dennis also had sex with (at least) one of Mike's wifes.

[Jason]

If Mike had said that pre 1980 I'd strongly disagree but by 1980 Dennis had pissed all his talent away.

If people think Mike was harsh, just imagine if the tables had been reversed and Mike had started a sexual relationship with Carnie a few years later.

Now THAT is just a frightening idea...

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Speaking of Beach Boy shenanigans: wasn't Brian running around in 1975-76 era telling Karen Lamm that Dennis wasn't good enough for her and that she should be with HIM?

[halblaineisgood]

.

[Cam Mott]

Didn't Carl stomp a unicorn to death?

[I. Spaceman]

Al made all the changes in the original Star Wars trilogy for the Special Edition.

[Nicko1234]

Back on topic...

As others have said, anyone with mental health problems needs to want to help themselves. Dennis unfortunately didn't and so no blame can be apportioned to Carl or the others.

According to Brian, Dennis slept with his wife, one of Mike's wives and Al's wife. Dennis was lucky he was allowed to stay in the band for as long as he was...

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Not very thoughtful wives, eh?

Or was it just an understood rule that Dennis was so irresistible: wives sleeping with him was an accepted collateral risk in Beach Boys land?

[Nicko1234]

Not very thoughtful wives, eh?

Or was it just an understood rule that Dennis was so irresistible: wives sleeping with him was a accepted collateral risk in Beach Boys land?

The reason (among other things) why they got divorced presumably...

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Not very thoughtful wives, eh?

Or was it just an understood rule that Dennis was so irresistible: wives sleeping with him was a accepted collateral risk in Beach Boys land?

The reason (among other things) why they got divorced presumably...

Yeah, you can't blame all that on Dennis completely unless he was going around raping people....

But I wonder if any of these occurrences happened before they were Beach Boy wives and were "fair game" around the Beach Boys camp....