So are we going to have this modern music (esp rap) is rubbish discussion then?

[I. Spaceman]

Lennon's music itself lost its feeling about nine years before he died, his death wasn't significant in a musical sense.

[Myk Luhv]

"Walking on Thin Ice" is killer though.

edit: Literally!

[Kurosawa]

Lennon's music itself lost its feeling about nine years before he died, his death wasn't significant in a musical sense.

What he did right at the end was really good, and what could have been would have probably been pretty special.

[MBE]

I bet people who complain about over-production still love their precious Fleetwood Mac albums.

good point. I don't care for the Mac though...

I like the version with Peter Green.

[Loaf]

How about some love for Outkast?


Bowtie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pXJPqvyp6s

Never has ripping off Prince been so well done.


Bombs Over Baghdad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaFygeknae8

Such great rapping for the first half, and the psychedelic groove on the second.

[Myk Luhv]

Outkast was better when they smoked weed and said nigga. Witness: "Player's Ball", "Two Dope Boyz (In A Cadillac)", "Synthesizer".

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I love outkast

[hypehat]

Outkast!

Big Boi's first solo album (second one is a bit iffy) is also amazing. Stacked with immensity. And he's never really dropped a bad verse, has he?

[Myk Luhv]

I really want to hear a hardcore-sounding hip-hop album with both hilariously subtle and unsubtle lyrics about Dragonball Z. Like, with Dr. Dre or Freddie Gibbs voices and grimey, hard beats. That would be so funny.

[Manchini]

There's so much limp dick sh*t out nowadays. There was a great article (maybe posted on here?) a while back that reviewed the worst bands in the new decade. Fleet Foxes was one of them and the reviewer said, in summary, that they don't know how to write an actual proper song, it's just lazy music that white people like because they're told it's profound and beautiful. That review really hit it for me, I mean I really believe that. I'd rather listen to The Carter IV than anything by the Black Keys or Foster the People. By the way, is "Pumped Up Kicks" really what passes for a lead vocal nowadays? I don't like mumbling. I'm sorry to be abrasive, I just miss the days when a song would pack a punch in 2 minutes and then wrap up. Granted a lot of hip hop tracks are too long too.

[SgtTimBob]

I like Fleet Foxes. 

[Alex]

I like Fleet Foxes. 

Me too.

I'd rather listen to The Carter IV than anything by the Black Keys or Foster the People.

Really?    Top 40 Hip hop makes me want to stick bamboo sticks in my ears, doesn't matter if it's Eminem, Lil' Wayne, 50 Cent, the Black Eyed Peas, Puff Daddy, Jay Z, Snoop Dogg, etc. I see the presence in the top 40 of the Black Keys, Foster the People, and fun. as a major coup for "hipster rock". Now if only Neutral Milk Hotel would get back together and have a #1 smash with Two-Headed Boy Part 4!!

[Manchini]

I actually do see its merit, and I'm not surprised nor is it totally unrelatable that somebody would prefer Fleet Foxes to Lil Wayne or Foster the People to Eminem. It's just that hipster rock (we'll go with that term) excites me less than some current hip hop. And for the record, I wouldn't put the Black Eyed Peas in the same league as Eminem or Jay Z -- though, somebody out there might! And so it goes; the variables of preference can't be exhausted! 

[the captain]

It seems to me that we seem to assign bad intentions to musicians and fans of musicians we don't like. So, for example (and I'm not attacking Manchini, here, just using the review s/he references):

There was a great article (maybe posted on here?) a while back that reviewed the worst bands in the new decade. Fleet Foxes was one of them and the reviewer said, in summary, that they don't know how to write an actual proper song, it's just lazy music that white people like because they're told it's profound and beautiful.

The likes of Jay-Z, since he was referenced in these posts, sell far, far more records than Fleet Foxes (whom I don't much like, btw, so I'm not defending them). So mightn't we say liking Jay-Z is lazier? Maybe because the listeners are sold on his mogul persona (or whatever other characteristic), or even just because they're lazier still and listen without seeking anything beyond what is being given to them on the charts? Conversely, isn't it possible that people like Fleet Foxes because it's just listenable? Can't relaxing music be ok without it being "limp-dick?"

I think cutting musicians and their fans a little slack is in order sometimes. The former are just people doing something many others--many of us, I suspect--wish we could do. Maybe they're pure to their vision and you don't like their vision. Fine. Maybe they're pure to their vision but they haven't got much of it (or talent). Fine. Maybe they're quite good but compromising artistically to make a living. Fine. And as for the former, they're just poor schmucks like us--actually they are us. Just people listening to what they like. These people aren't necessarily dumb, or whiny, or sheep, or thuggish, or hipster, or imitative, or anything else. They are--some of them are all those things, as are some of us--but it just doesn't matter. The world isn't coming to an end every time a new rapper makes a song you don't like, or a new band that reminds you of an old band but not quite as good gets a song strategically placed in an Apple commercial or an ABC network drama (wait, those are the same thing...). You know?

That wasn't a very well formulated point, but it's clear in my head. Please refer any questions or comments to the inside of my head. Thank you.

[Manchini]

So mightn't we say liking Jay-Z is lazier?

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that enjoying their music is lazy, just that the writing is. I can see how that may have been misunderstood because of my reference to the article claiming that white people like it because they're told it's hip, which I suppose is a remark on the insincerity of music listeners now? I don't know -- I can't say I necessarily agree with that wholeheartedly, and it's a whole discussion on its own, but it did drive the author's point home and I found it a funny bit.

Can't relaxing music be ok without it being "limp-dick?"

Yes! In fact, there is plenty of relaxing, non-limp dicked music out there. Furthermore, it's okay to enjoy the relaxing stuff that doesn't pack a punch. My perspective is more of disbelief that there isn't more current, non-rap music out there that packs a punch in just a couple of minutes.

[I. Spaceman]

  I see the presence in the top 40 of the Black Keys, Foster the People, and fun. as a major coup for "hipster rock". 

And this is a good thing, how?

[Ron]

It was getting quite passionate on the box set thread and it looks like people have much to say from both sides.

Personally there's nothing from the last 15 years or so that does anything for me. Even recent Beach Boy/Brian stuff fails to make much of an impression on me.

All you're saying is "I have little ability to see beauty in anything that isn't overwhelmingly beautiful".   So it's not modern musician's problem that you can't look past whatever it is you don't like about modern music.  It's your fault. 

Music is an art, you may disagree wtih it but it's purpose will always be the same, it's a human condition type of thing.  Different people express art differently, some of the music and 'artists' that people on this board profess to love I think are just god awful and vice versa. 

It's not that the music's very different, it's just that we are.  Some people are very specific about what they like, others are more universal, and a kid listening to stuff now will look back on this as a really good era of music.  Even if to you or I it looks like trash. 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I've always said if you can take a popular song and rearrange it in a different style (say, taking an electro pop sing and turning it into an acoustic ballad) and it still sounds commercial, it's a well written song. Well, there's a lot of songs out now that applies to. Make what you want of that...

[Ron]

I do the same thing.  Just play the melody as a piano piece and see if it works.  If it does, it's hard to argue that the song's not well written.  Some of the modern artists it's easier to see their talent than others.  I'm not down with the latest/greatest bands because I'm not hip enough to be current, but someone like Pink for example (more famous a few years ago) strikes me as exceptionally talented. 

[I. Spaceman]

"The vagabond who's rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes that you once wore".

[the captain]

"The vagabond who's rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes that you once wore".

But he smells like pee, too. Do I hafta let him in?

[Myk Luhv]

This song rules, from the excellent 1992 album Daily Operation. Guru and Premo were the sh*t...

As for what Luther said earlier, I don't disagree that hip-hop is mainstream now and has been for at least two decades... but much like rock music, it's been a particular kind of hip-hop: club/party anthems and such for the most part. Now, without a doubt I would listen to top 40 hip-hop over the equivalent rock music since I find most of the latter boring, which I think is far worse than a good club track. (There should be more top 40 pop/rock songs about smoking weed, jeez...) But I think some of the reluctance towards hip-hop some people feel is maybe that, like "Conspiracy", it doesn't relate to white-person experience? Of course, I'm throwing my biases right out there: Lately I've been getting into Native Tongues posse releases, that sorta stuff... though even something like 2Pac's Me Against The World -- phenomenally successful as it was upon its release -- speaks to a black audience, even if white people listen too. (No wonder Eminem doesn't write gritty, realistic portraits of ghetto life and sticks to Gravediggaz-style cartoon violence.) Of course, this isn't an insurmountable barrier since plenty of white people can rap the entirety of "f*** Tha Police" even if they've never been harassed a day in their life, yet I think it takes more sympathy for social positions to connect with that message -- rather than construe it as condoning violence against police officers per se (like when it was initially released) -- than it does to get behind, say, a song about being depressed because you got dumped adorned with harmonies, a singing saw, and strummed guitars or whatever.

Or maybe I'm just talkin' sh*t? I dunno. We need a hip-hip thread since I've been listening to it nearly exclusively these past couple days...

[Alex]

I can honestly say I don't own a single rap album. I like the two or three Public Enemy songs I know, been meaning to get into them more for a while now. Actually listening to Fear of a Black Planet on Spotify right now. I'm only on track 2 but liking what I'm hearing so far. Puts Kanye and Puff Daddy to shame.

[Myk Luhv]

The Bomb Squad are awesome, and produced for a lot of excellent politically-oriented hip-hop artists besides Public Enemy too, mostly notably Ice Cube's (formerly of NWA) first two albums, if I'm recalling correctly: AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted (1990) and Death Certificate (1991). They also influenced a lot of other producers obviously, such as Paris.

[Dudd]

Gotye, man. It's such a shame he only had one big hit; virtually all his stuff is excellent. He's a true original.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZdq7mDpJSk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRC--2qC_Qs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SmGNNdRQjc