So are we going to have this modern music (esp rap) is rubbish discussion then?

[Mike's Beard]

It was getting quite passionate on the box set thread and it looks like people have much to say from both sides.

Personally there's nothing from the last 15 years or so that does anything for me. Even recent Beach Boy/Brian stuff fails to make much of an impression on me.

[the captain]

It seems--and I hope--not.

[Myk Luhv]

I'm mostly astonished that people dismiss hip-hop entirely, as if that genre is some kind of monolithic entity that has only one sound or style. Is it that it gets judged by the standards of rock music, which is wholly inappropriate? Is it that some of you seriously think rapping or sampling are not artistic endeavours? Nobody would ever say that they hate rock music because it all sounds the same, and that sound is bad -- whoever did would be correctly ridiculed for knowing nothing about the many varied styles of rock music! The same is true of hip-hop (or country for that matter, another genre lots of people [not necessarily here] dismiss completely as well). I'm suspicious that it has nothing to do in some cases with a valuation of the sorts of people who most obviously listen to these types of music: poor people, black or white. Whereas these days rock music is accepted as non-threatening middle-class music, maybe hip-hop seems too alien and aggressive? But I digress: I think mostly such unfounded dislike of hip-hop is based on what gets played on top 40 "urban" radio -- and although I'd much rather listen to that than the equivalent top 40 rock, in both cases you're rarely getting more than lowest common denominator stuff. A lot of great hip-hop is mixtape-based these days anyway too.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Good music is subjective.  I think a lot of board members' issues with current music stems from several reasons:

1)Production- They don't care for auto-tune (even I feel it gets old after a while), and everything is brickwalled to hell
2)Peer pressure- Sounds silly, yes, but I'm sure there are some people here who are afraid to admit to liking something because the majority of the board doesn't. I admit to falling into this category for a while.
3) Being closed minded- Much like my generation (b.1978) dismissed the music I listened to because it was 'old', there are some folks who don't want to like anything recorded past a certain point BECAUSE it is new, and dismiss it out of hand. Or, it's not recorded in analog and released on vinyl.  

I do think some of it stems from prejudice. NOT racial prejudice, but because it's the 'music of the young' or whatever. 'Oh, those damn kids and their hippin, and a-hoppin...their bippin' and a-boppin...they done forgot what the blues is all about'.*  I share some of it too...I don't care a lot of the music from the 1950s, but a good deal with that has to do with the fact that I despise the decade itself. Sorry, but the whole 'let's wear our letterman jackets while we take Betty Lou & Mary Sue to the soda hop and chill out to Pat Boone while accusing people of communism and harassing people because of their color of the skin or their political beliefs'.  Before I get a whole bunch of angry PMs, that was a round-about and somewhat exaggerated way of saying I can understand why some people can easily dismiss the music from right now because they don't like the society as it is now. But, that just causes them to miss out on some good stuff, just like I'd be missing out on some good stuff just because Pat Boone makes me want to break stuff and set cats on fire.

I think Dr. Voldelabra put it well too.


*Whomever gets that reference wins the No-Prize(tm)

[the captain]

The argument itself is about 20 years too late. It's like arguing about this new, crazy rock 'n' roll music in 1973. Hip hop has dominated popular music for a couple of decades. It isn't the fringe insurgent, it is long-since established mainstream. Rock is the not-quite-dead dinosaur. And that's going to change, too, because that's the nature of culture.

People form their musical loves as they first think, f***, and drink (or smoke). Then after a decade or so of formation, they stop absorbing new types, instead measuring what they hear against the "good stuff" of their formative years. They might follow those old bands, the new bands that mimic, or just fetishize the details of a handful of albums, but they're basically done. So nothing new can satisfy them ... which is good, because that lets the cycle repeat.

It's a boring argument or complaint. If you hate what is new, it's because you're doing what you're supposed to do. goshdarn kids and their noise...

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Thank you... you put it better than me for sure!

Edit

I gotta take issue with one thing though... I'm still listening to new things and trying to expand my horizons ( just now getting into Johnny Cash , for example )

[Myk Luhv]

I suppose to add to the habituation argument you could say it's easier these days than it ever was before to keep yourself musically contained to those sounds you obviously, immediately like since there's no shortage of websites that cater to specific styles. If you don't listen to the radio -- whether top 40, community, or otherwise -- or make an effort some other way then you don't even need to be exposed to unfamiliar music if that's your thing. I kind of think that's unfortunate, honestly.

[the captain]

I gotta take issue with one thing though... I'm still listening to new things and trying to expand my horizons ( just now getting into Johnny Cash , for example )

So am I, at the ripe old age of 36. But my point is that what is being made en masse is being made for a reason and for an audience. There are outside-peak-age listeners open to new things, but they are fringe characters. Not better, not worse, but not in the mainstream.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Good point

[SMiLE-addict]

1. I could make a good argument that popular music has been going downhill since about 1900. The late Romantic-early Modern period of classical music was the era when music reached the height of its complexity; once jazz came on the scene and replaced classical music as the "popular" music of the day, was when "popular" music started becoming less complex - presuming one is going to define "going downhill" as something that becomes "less complex." (I'm sure there are people who will argue that jazz isn't "less complex" than classical music, but I would say it is).

2. That said, most genres of music seems to go through a series of stages where it starts out simple, gets more complex through time, then at some point it becomes too complex to appeal to the masses; then you get a period where it goes through some sort of retro period (albeit with significant differences from the "early" period) ... then after that it's mostly downhill. Face it: Once a few hundred thousand or so songs or pieces of some genre have been written, there's increasingly less room to find something to write that doesn't sound like something that's already been written.

3. As much as I dislike it, I "understand" why rap/hip-hop became popular - there was pretty much nowhere else to go. Rock music in the 70's had reached, in some bands, levels of complexity previously breached only by some jazz and classical (indeed, many of these pieces were deliberate jazz/classical fusions). At that point it was difficult for music to get still more complex while retaining popular appeal, so the only thing to do was to get *less* complex. 80's techno-rock was a step in that direction. The other way to do that would be to devise a new genre in which melody is eliminated entirely; poetry spoken to a beat (rap). Maybe the next genre to spring up will be pure melodies sung with total disregard to anything resembling a time signature, or something like that (though I wouldn't be surprised if someone has already done that).

4. Again, not that I like it, but not long ago I had a discussion on another forum where people were pointing out to me rap/hip-hop songs written to 3/4 and other "different" time signatures, with acoustic guitars and other, non-electric instruments, and all kinds of other things. There *is* some creativity in rap and hip-hop. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be the most popular stuff.

5. Read through comments on youtube of 90's rap songs. You will find A LOT of rap fans who think that was the Golden Age of rap and the stuff nowadays is crap (it all sounds the same to me, though! ). I've read so many comments like that, it makes me think rap is already in its downhill stages, as if 90's rap is akin to mid-60's through mid-70's rock. I suspect in about 20 years it will clearly be a dying genre.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Rap was a natural evolution from what James Brown and Gil Scott-Heron were doing, mixed with Jamaican toasting. I wonder what could've turned out if Brian had met Stephen Kalinich in 1966, though, and had the idea to mix poetry with the Spector sound.

My issue with a lot of commercial hip hop is that it's OVERPRODUCED, if anything, at least for the past 5 years or some. I'm more partial to the southern crunk style, myself.

Maybe the next genre to spring up will be pure melodies sung with total disregard to anything resembling a time signature, or something like that (though I wouldn't be surprised if someone has already done that).

  I've actually been working on something like that for the past year and a half!

[SMiLE-addict]

One reason I don't think this cycle is entirely true this time is, I have found A LOT of young people who like the Beatles, BB's, Led Zeppelin and other rock groups from the 60's and 70's. This is 30-50 year-old music! When I was growing up it was practically unheard of for kids my age to listen to, let alone prefer, 30-50 year old music. Sure, we liked the occasional Sinatra tune, but it's not like we went out and bought heaps of Sinatra records and played it at parties. But now, the impression I get from talking to teenagers and 20-somethings is that it is pretty common to like "old" music. The fact this has now become pretty common tells me that current music is lacking in something even teenagers and 20-somethings yearn for, and which they can only find in their parent's music (and by now some of it is even their grandparent's music!).

Also, when I was growing up (mostly in the 70's) my own parents liked a lot of then-current music, even though they were in their 30's and 40's. In fact, a lot of my own musical taste comes from listening to records my parents bought. Is the same thing happening a lot nowadays? Maybe, but I don't think on a large scale.

The argument itself is about 20 years too late. It's like arguing about this new, crazy rock 'n' roll music in 1973. Hip hop has dominated popular music for a couple of decades. It isn't the fringe insurgent, it is long-since established mainstream. Rock is the not-quite-dead dinosaur. And that's going to change, too, because that's the nature of culture.

People form their musical loves as they first think, f***, and drink (or smoke). Then after a decade or so of formation, they stop absorbing new types, instead measuring what they hear against the "good stuff" of their formative years. They might follow those old bands, the new bands that mimic, or just fetishize the details of a handful of albums, but they're basically done. So nothing new can satisfy them ... which is good, because that lets the cycle repeat.

It's a boring argument or complaint. If you hate what is new, it's because you're doing what you're supposed to do. goshdarn kids and their noise...

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

One reason I don't think this cycle is entirely true this time is, I have found A LOT of young people who like the Beatles, BB's, Led Zeppelin and other rock groups from the 60's and 70's. This is 30-50 year-old music! When I was growing up it was practically unheard of for kids my age to listen to, let alone prefer, 30-50 year old music. Sure, we liked the occasional Sinatra tune, but it's not like we went out and bought heaps of Sinatra records and played it at parties. But now, the impression I get from talking to teenagers and 20-somethings is that it is pretty common to like "old" music. The fact this has now become pretty common tells me that current music is lacking in something even teenagers and 20-somethings yearn for, and which they can only find in their parent's music (and by now some of it is even their grandparent's music!).

Growing up when I did, it wasn't like that. About the only band my generation liked that was older was the Beatles. I think that's something that's changed in the past 10 years or so. Today's youth seems to like their stuff and older stuff almost on an equal level.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Another factor is that there are people, including people on this board, who believe that the height of civilization was over 200 years ago and therefore anything that isn't inspired by that time or working within the parameters established in that time simply cannot be good.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Sounds like my music theory teacher in college. If it wasn't written by Bach, it wasn't music. He actually said that in class.

[I. Spaceman]

The other way to do that would be to devise a new genre in which melody is eliminated entirely; poetry spoken to a beat (rap). 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwKXggW7naI

[SMiLE-addict]

I always counted this as sort-of the first (or one of the first) rap song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nULwgHsVqw

[I. Spaceman]

Here's where Bob got it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2nRjGHE620

[SMiLE-addict]

Dylan sort-of sings, and Chuck Berry sings in the refrain. The Stone's song, however, is pretty much all talk.

[SMiLE-addict]

I take that back: Jagger seems to actually sing notes in the "I'm a-tattered" and "Does it matter" lines. And kinda-sorta "I'm a-shattered" lines.

Oh well.

[SMiLE-addict]

5. Read through comments on youtube of 90's rap songs. You will find A LOT of rap fans who think that was the Golden Age of rap and the stuff nowadays is crap (it all sounds the same to me, though! ). I've read so many comments like that, it makes me think rap is already in its downhill stages, as if 90's rap is akin to mid-60's through mid-70's rock. I suspect in about 20 years it will clearly be a dying genre.

Looks like I'm not the only one who noticed this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapping#History

The golden age
Golden age hip hop (cited as either just the late '80s[26] or the late 80s to early 90s[27]) was the time period where hip-hop lyricism went through its most drastic transformation – writer William Jelani Cobb says "in these golden years, a critical mass of mic prodigies were literally creating themselves and their art form at the same time"[28] and Allmusic writes, "rhymers like PE's Chuck D, Big Daddy Kane, KRS-One, and Rakim basically invented the complex wordplay and lyrical kung-fu of later hip-hop”.[29] The golden age is considered to have ended around '93–'94, marking the end of rap lyricism's most innovative period.

[I. Spaceman]

Dylan sort-of sings, and Chuck Berry sings in the refrain. The Stone's song, however, is pretty much all talk.

And lots of rappers "speak" notes melliflously, in key and rhythm, and many sing sections of songs. Listen to more hip-hop, you'll hear this.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Dylan sort-of sings, and Chuck Berry sings in the refrain. The Stone's song, however, is pretty much all talk.

And lots of rappers "speak" notes melliflously, in key and rhythm, and many sing sections of songs. Listen to more hip-hop, you'll hear this.

Hell, every one of Drake's flows are half-sung to begin with.

[SMiLE-addict]

And lots of rappers "speak" notes melliflously, in key and rhythm, and many sing sections of songs. Listen to more hip-hop, you'll hear this.

Yeah I realize that, but generally speaking, rap is largely "spoken" music. Melody is largely non-existent, except for a few sung notes here and there, and the occasional artist who prefers a lot of songs that way. Hip-hop is a different story.

Here's some of the rap/hip-hop songs some other guys pointed out to me in another forum which do have what I consider musical creativity. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't go out and buy these, but I do recognize there's a good amount of musical thought gone into these.

Jazz-rap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=is5xMd1nT5o

This one is actually pretty good, sort-of Michael Jackson-esque. I once did a temp agency job and the guy I was working with listened to a lot of stuff like this, it was actually listen-to-able:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6tpl9LtkRRw

Acoustic guitar, samba-style. Nice background, but pretty typical rapping.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=D6WThN_5GQs

Nor really rap nor hip-hop, but still nice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ORVz_qeKgvg

Rap songs in 3/4 time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yOUqx0gZiGQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kiF1dXopPBo

This seems to be in some weird time signature I can't figure out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GjQLhj4kzR4

This one switches between 4/4 and 3/4:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VygzT4ieez4

Not the forum I was referring to, but some interesting discussion on another forum here, where I got some of those videos.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

You got Gorillaz listed on here...not really hip hop. It's a side project for the guy from Blur with guests.