The Stephen Desper Thread

[Dan Lega]

For all we know, it coulda been Jack Rieley's idea...

C-Man

For all we know it could have been the Man in the Moon's idea... 

        ...but from everything I've read it was all Mike Love's idea.



By the way, I absolutely love the song. 


So take that, H.  It's not only you "Heavenly, So-much-better-than-us, MiKe Love lovers" who love the song. 


And, heck, I love the song even though I don't find much to say musically about these simple blues progressions.  Some of the more popular progressions are fun to listen to in certain instances.  But when there are hundreds, nay thousands, of songs based on the exact same few simple chord progressions (which usually come with the exact same melody) it doesn't mean every one of those thousands of  minor variations are great.  In fact, in may case, I get bored very quickly with just a few iterations of these forms.  In fact, I don't care that much for "Cell Block #9", but I do love "Student Demostration Time".  It probably has to do with the great production of the song, the lyrics, which I find clever, and perhaps the fact that I grew up in that era and I heard the song soon after it came out.


Love and merci,   Dan Lega

[Stephen W. Desper]

I agree with Stephen, some of us appreciate it from a certain life experience.

Stephen, I wondered if you remember if it was Mike who brought the song Cell Block #9 to the table or was it someone else's [Brian, Carl, Al, Dennis, Bruce] idea to use the song [Cell Block #9] and they then asked Mike to write relevant lyrics?

I think it was Mike.  My mind plays tricks with me -- it was so long ago -- but I seem to remember an enthusiastic Mike Love in lyrical discussions with Carl while on the road about CB9. Mostly about how it would be presented as a performance song. I can't help but find visions in my head of Carl and Mike working on arrangements and pacing. That would change from time to time depending on the band members and available instrumentation and talent. The more I think about it the more I see Mike leading the way to what would happen on stage. But it was a long time ago. ~swd

[Stephen W. Desper]

. . . and perhaps the fact that I grew up in that era and I heard the song soon after it came out.

If you were demonstrating at the time or caught in a riot it would mean that much more. The BB (and myself) have been pushed and shoved on several occations just trying to get out of a bad situation (relating to war demos).  ~swd

[Bicyclerider]

The Beach Boys had been playing Riot in concert (at Big Sur it was preserved on tape) so that must have given Mike and/or Jack the idea to rewrite it - it was a rare vocal showcase for him during this time of everyone in the band (except Mike) writing songs and then taking the lead vocal on their songs.

Count me in the "they should have left it as Riot" group - I like the production and the music, but the lyrics are Mike at his most cringeworthy IMO.  Brian hated it - he never bought into the Jack Riely concept of the Beach Boys as a topical political group, although you have to give Jack credit - his ideas worked to bring the band back into the public eye and into the good graces of Rolling Stone.

[Dan Lega]

       Here's what Jack Rieley had to say about the "Surf's Up" album and "Student Demonstration Time" in October of 1996...

--------------------------


Meanwhile, Carl Wilson and I began to write. Long Promised Road began to
be created. Then came the seed for Feel Flows.  Til I Die became a must.
Tree was born.  Love, Jardine and Johnston began to get testy about it
all.  There was a long meeting during which they tried to force me to
march into Mo's office and sell him on Loop.  I refused and Brian
Wilson, Dennis Wilson and Carl Wilson backed me up.  Love, sensing that
I might be on to something by rejecting the string-o-hits crap as out of
date, suddenly came up with Student Demonstration Time, which had Carl
and I blushing with embarassment and which thoroughly disgusted Dennis.
Then Jardine demanded that his Feet song go on the album. Johnston got
Tears. When Carl and I compiled the album running order, most versions
had the Wilson songs on one side and the jive on the other.  It was
uncool, so we changed to the running order you know.


-----------------------------

[Dancing Bear]

Love, sensing that
I might be on to something by rejecting the string-o-hits crap as out of
date, suddenly came up with Student Demonstration Time, which had Carl
and I blushing with embarassment and which thoroughly disgusted Dennis.

It's great that Carl and Dennis are featured so prominently in SDT. That's team playing at its best. 

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Johnston got Tears.

Again?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Hey, Stephen, I was going through some stuff this afternoon when I happened across this track:

http://www.someoneliving.com/forgivetwotrack.mp3

Obviously, you're under no obligation to listen to it, but I'm pretty sure it was the first serious recording I did after you started giving me all sorts of tips, so if nothing else you can know your passed-on knowledge is being put to use.  I did everything on it myself, the only thing I didn't do is write the song.  It's supposed to be a conversation between a guy and a girl, which is why I inexplicably change vocal registers at times.  The higher voice is to be replaced by a female at some point.

If anybody else who hasn't heard it before listens and is interested, here is a little rundown of some of the elements of the track.

Drums recorded in my foyer, MXL 993s overhead in spaced pair, SM57 on snare, AKG D112 on kick.

Bass:  Fender Precision through 12" guitar amp played with pick, mic-ed with a single Shure 545 on-axis with the speaker, right against the grille.  I don't believe I took it DI, but if I did it was combined to a mono signal, then later that signal was split and one side was slighly detuned.  I tried doubling the line manually with my Fender Mustang, which is a great sound, but it wasn't working for this song.

The acoustic guitars and mandolins were all done with heavy CTDTing, XY formation.  I believe the intro has two 12-sting acoustics, one six string, and two mandolin parts.

The electric guitar was recorded through the Carvin 12" speaker-ed guitar amp, slightly distorted.  I had a 57 right up close and the 545 about 15 feet back and out where it could pick up some foyer sound.

The piano was recorded in stereo with two Rode NT-1As, and a Shure 546.  Some articficial reverb was added to pad out the sound.

The trumpets were treated as if two trumpeters were present, playing together into one mic, then doubling the first pass.  So I actually recorded each pass in stereo using CTDT, then combined that into mono, then repeated the process.  The mono signals were panned out left and right.

The strings were the most difficult and painstaking to do.  I set up the MXL 993 Small Diaphragm mics in a spaced formation, then set up four chairs underneath, did four stereo passes, then did four more passes in stereo to double the "quartet."  Sadly, I'm not that good at violin, so it's a little out of tune at times.

The vocals were really straightforward.  I did the "male" vocals into my Ribbin mic, the "Female" into my Rode NT-1A.  I comb-filtered the mono signal into stereo for the "verses", double-tracked and panned out the "choruses", and double-tracked the "jazzier" "bridges" but kept both passes down the middle.  I also added a slapback "tape" echo sound to those to make it sound a little denser and "retro".

Thanks for your great tips, Steve.

[petsite]

Hey Stephen.  I asked this in the Alan Boyd Thread. I should have asked you first as you were the engineer. Here is my question:

Since the LAST CAPITOL ALBUM reel says saftey copy on it, was a copy sent to Capitol? The reason I ask is that if Cotonfields and The Lord's Prayer are DUOPHONIC, wouldn't that have been done by Cap and not at Brother Studios?

Thanks,

Bob Flory

Alan's response

I don't know if Capitol ever received the LAST CAPITOL ALBUM from The Beach Boys.  The Beach Boys still have the original master - or what's left of it (several tracks were snagged from that reel for inclusion on master reels for SUNFLOWER and THE SECOND WARNER BROTHERS ALBUM).  I have no idea how or where (or why) those duophonic remasters were done, to tell the truth.

Alan Boyd

[Jaco]

http://www.someoneliving.com/forgivetwotrack.mp3 (Recorded by aeijtzsche)

I like it alot... the experimentations, surprise after surprise, on first listening... until 2:07... maybe a 'magical' instrumental surprise-bridge kind of thing, as an insert? (my suggestion)
Great tune anyhow!

[c-man]

       Here's what Jack Rieley had to say about the "Surf's Up" album and "Student Demonstration Time" in October of 1996...

--------------------------


Meanwhile, Carl Wilson and I began to write. Long Promised Road began to
be created. Then came the seed for Feel Flows.  Til I Die became a must.
Tree was born.  Love, Jardine and Johnston began to get testy about it
all.  There was a long meeting during which they tried to force me to
march into Mo's office and sell him on Loop.  I refused and Brian
Wilson, Dennis Wilson and Carl Wilson backed me up.  Love, sensing that
I might be on to something by rejecting the string-o-hits crap as out of
date, suddenly came up with Student Demonstration Time, which had Carl
and I blushing with embarassment and which thoroughly disgusted Dennis.
Then Jardine demanded that his Feet song go on the album. Johnston got
Tears. When Carl and I compiled the album running order, most versions
had the Wilson songs on one side and the jive on the other.  It was
uncool, so we changed to the running order you know.


-----------------------------

I wouldn't trust anything Rieley says...

C-Man

[Dan Lega]

I wouldn't trust anything Rieley says...

C-Man

      I, myself, find Jack Rieley totally believable.  Do you want to give us a reason why you think he's lying?


          Love and merci,  Dan Lega

[Rocker]

I wouldn't trust anything Rieley says...

C-Man

      I, myself, find Jack Rieley totally believable.  Do you want to give us a reason why you think he's lying?


          Love and merci,  Dan Lega

I guess C-Man has some lies in mind that Riley told the BBs so they hire him. But maybe this isn't the right thread to talk about that...

[Mitchell]

Just a random question that I don't recall seeing answered before:

Who played the Jew's harp on Cotton Fields (Single Version)? Also, do you have any tips for avoiding the 'clinking' when recording a Jew's harp (some clinking is heard in Cotton Fields, unfortunately)?

[c-man]

I wouldn't trust anything Rieley says...

C-Man

      I, myself, find Jack Rieley totally believable.  Do you want to give us a reason why you think he's lying?


          Love and merci,  Dan Lega

I guess C-Man has some lies in mind that Riley told the BBs so they hire him. But maybe this isn't the right thread to talk about that...

That's one reason...there are others I won't mention here.  But one I will mention here is this: 
Alan had steadfastly refused over the years to release "Loop de Loop" in its original form, even in 1993 when fans were begging for it to be included on the box set, because he said it wasn't finished.  He finally sanctioned its release in 1998, but only after it was finished to his satisfaction.  Why should we believe he was pushing for its release in the early '70s just because Jack Rieley says so, when we know he was refusing to release it a few years later?   

C-Man

[Dancing Bear]

A final mix of Loop de Loop was made in 1969, but curiously the track wasn't featured in any of those Add Some Music/Sunflower track lists rejected by Warner. And when Surf's Up was finally released, Al had two tracks in it, but no "Loop de Loop" to be seen. 

[Dan Lega]

Alan had steadfastly refused over the years to release "Loop de Loop" in its original form, even in 1993 when fans were begging for it to be included on the box set, because he said it wasn't finished.  He finally sanctioned its release in 1998, but only after it was finished to his satisfaction.  Why should we believe he was pushing for its release in the early '70s just because Jack Rieley says so, when we know he was refusing to release it a few years later?   

C-Man

A final mix of Loop de Loop was made in 1969, but curiously the track wasn't featured in any of those Add Some Music/Sunflower track lists rejected by Warner. And when Surf's Up was finally released, Al had two tracks in it, but no "Loop de Loop" to be seen. 

"Loop De Loop" was originally on "Landlocked" which was rejected by Warners.  The early version I've heard sounds like a final mix to me.  So Jack Rieley could easily be telling the truth here.  It just seems way beyond ridiculous to say you wouldn't believe a single thing Jack Rieley says.  Why would he be lying?  Do you think he's getting paid by Brian, and maybe Dennis' and Carl's heirs to say some bad things about Mike Love and Al Jardine?  I happen to totally love "Loop De Loop", too, and think Jack Rieley was crazy not to like the song.  But that doesn't mean I don't believe what the guy has to say.

        Love and merci,   Dan Lega

[Roger Ryan]

I suppose it's possible that Al would have re-recorded the lead for "Loop De Loop" and remixed the track if it was seriously being considered for "Surf's Up". Since it wasn't, he left it "unfinished" until '98.

[Stephen W. Desper]

Hey Stephen.  I asked this in the Alan Boyd Thread. I should have asked you first as you were the engineer. Here is my question:

Since the LAST CAPITOL ALBUM reel says saftey copy on it, was a copy sent to Capitol? The reason I ask is that if Cotonfields and The Lord's Prayer are DUOPHONIC, wouldn't that have been done by Cap and not at Brother Studios?

Thanks,

Bob Flory

Alan's response

I don't know if Capitol ever received the LAST CAPITOL ALBUM from The Beach Boys.  The Beach Boys still have the original master - or what's left of it (several tracks were snagged from that reel for inclusion on master reels for SUNFLOWER and THE SECOND WARNER BROTHERS ALBUM).  I have no idea how or where (or why) those duophonic remasters were done, to tell the truth.

Alan Boyd

I'm not certain what you are asking.  Cotton Fields and The Lord's Prayer were both released in true stereophonic sound on 20/20. 

If they show up as duophonic on any, so called, safety copy it is not by my hand.  For them to be in that format, the stereo masters would need to be reduced to mono and then re-constituted into fake stereo.  What sense would there be to that, unless a mixup in the label. Best to listen to the tape rather than trust the writing on the box.

There are two types of safety copies.  The original mix safety and the EQed matrix safety.  The latter being used to make more LP stampers without the need to re-master from the original mix tape.  In either case, the two songs would be in true stereo.

20/20 was matered at the Capitol tower and not at an independent mastering house.  So safety copies would have been done in-house and not "sent over," from some outside source as you state. You can find the mastering engineer's mark on the leadout field of the LP.  It looks like asterisk (*) mark.     

Not sure if that answers your question or not.   ~swd 

[Jeff Mason]

Stephen --

To clarify, there is a tape reel labeled "LAST CAPITOL ALBUM" that is NOT 20/20 but an ancestor of Sunflower (if it ever was a real album, which is debatable).  That is where the duo tracks are, including the Cotton Fields single (not the 20/20 version) and the Lord's Prayer, neither of which were on 20/20.

[Stephen W. Desper]

COMMENTS --

Jack helped Brian re-discover his creative self and got him out of the bed thing and back into a productive work schedule. If that took some co-writing, then it did.  But what happened is that Jack got so involved that Mike and Al lead by Bruce became aware that Jack was taking too much control of production decisions, moving from adviser to controller.  Some caution flags were up with the group.  Jack's writing was also cutting into royalty payments or future writer's royaltys -- and you know, money incomes can cause some friction.  Jack is a very layed-back person with little need to make up stories or twist the events of the day.  But remember, it is his point of view.  Bruce's perspective would be different as would mine.  When Jack became a singer of Brian's songs, I think that was the last straw for many in the group. Then Holland or going to Holland was Jack's idea, which as you know, was questioned by many in the group as a good idea. So, after the fact, can you trust Jack's opinions in an interview?  I think you can if you give due thought to his thoughts being experssed within his limited framework of information about those times.  In other words, there my be some distortion to what he says, but it's not intentional. ~swd

[Dancing Bear]

"Loop De Loop" was originally on "Landlocked" which was rejected by Warners.  The early version I've heard sounds like a final mix to me.

There was never a "Landlocked" album rejected by Warner:
http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/unreleased.html

So Jack Rieley could easily be telling the truth here.  It just seems way beyond ridiculous to say you wouldn't believe a single thing Jack Rieley says.

Who's saying he's a liar? I, at least, am talking about facts as I know them, which can help us to have the full picture.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I think you can if you give due thought to his thoughts being experssed within his limited framework of information about those times.  In other words, there my be some distortion to what he says, but it's not intentional. ~swd

Life would be much easier if everybody had the same perspective.  But probably less interesting.

[Stephen W. Desper]

Stephen --

To clarify, there is a tape reel labeled "LAST CAPITOL ALBUM" that is NOT 20/20 but an ancestor of Sunflower (if it ever was a real album, which is debatable).  That is where the duo tracks are, including the Cotton Fields single (not the 20/20 version) and the Lord's Prayer, neither of which were on 20/20.

Is it in my handwriting?  

Our Prayer is in stereo.  Cottonfields in mono (or duophonic) would have been a Capitol move.

I have a copy of The Lord's Prayer that I mixed for myself (as a gift to my Mom on Mother's day) and that is mixed in true stereo (alla Desper style). So somewhere there is a mix in stereo.  It may be on a seperate reel. Otherwise The Lord's Prayer was early enough to be mixed by Capitol in mono and then converted to duophonic. ~swd

[Alan Boyd]

Just for the record - here's the lineup of THE LAST CAPITOL ALBUM

1.  COTTON FIELDS single version - duophonic
2.  LOOP DE LOOP - pulled to "Second Warner Brothers Album" reel
3.  ALL I WANNA DO - pulled to "Sunflower" master reel
4.  GOT TO KNOW THE WOMAN - alternate mono mix
5.  WHEN GIRLS GET TOGETHER - backing track, no vocals
6.  BREAK AWAY
7.  SAN MIGUEL - pulled to "Second Warner Brothers Album" reel
8.  CELEBRATE THE NEWS
9.  DIERDRE - pulled to "Sunflower" master reel
10. THE LORD’S PRAYER - duophonic
11. FOREVER - pulled to "Sunflower" master reel

Alan