The Smiley Smile Message Board

Mr. Desper -- This isn't an attempt to get you to criticize anyone else's work, but is there a Beach Boys or Brian Wilson song that you didn't work on, but really wish you had? This might be for technical reasons, such as that you thought you could've gotten a different sound that particularly appeals to you, or for a more sentimental one, such as that you just love a particular song or record. Maybe you think some song deserved better or different treatment than it got. And, if so, how might you have approached it?

Mr Desper wrote:

"((PS  don't remember the song and the track was wiped.))"

Can you elaborate on the reasons for wiping not-to-be-used songs? I assume one was economical in that the Beach Boys wanted to record over older tapes instead of buying new tapes.

The author(s) of the songs did not want to move forward with their creation and wanted to remove any evidence of same.  Sort of like writing it down on paper, handing it to a musician to play, then upon hearing it played if you did not like what you heard you would rip up the paper along with the song. It's one thing to write a song and hear it in your head or hear it as you play it, but the song takes on a different perspective if you hear it without playing it.  Sometimes this seperation of the player to the listener in playback (even if the same person) gives a point of view that is different and allows for a more critical judgement to be made.

Ever compose a photo with your digital camera, but after you take it and view it on the screen, decide to erase the attempt and move on?

The recording studio can be used for production but also for experimentation (if you can afford it).  Indeed, if you do use it for experimentation, those things you try out and wish to discard must be destroyed or else the whole idea of author's security and control over their creation, is lost.  Good Grief!  If I could not erase or go over (edit) everything I write on this computer -- and somehow there was a record of everything I wrote that may someday come back to haunt me, I'd go back to a pencil and paper.  ~swd

The author(s) of the songs did not want to move forward with their creation and wanted to remove any evidence of same.  Sort of like writing it down on paper, handing it to a musician to play, then upon hearing it played if you did not like what you heard you would rip up the paper along with the song. It's one thing to write a song and hear it in your head or hear it as you play it, but the song takes on a different perspective if you hear it without playing it.  Sometimes this seperation of the player to the listener in playback (even if the same person) gives a point of view that is different and allows for a more critical judgement to be made.

FYI, this is why I have some serious issues with bootlegs.

That's an interesting answer. I've recorded music for ten years now and I've never deleted a recording that I didn't like.

What's obvious in Brian's career is that sometimes a song doesn't feel right when it was first recorded, so it's discarded for years and years until the moment's right.

Mr. Desper, I apologize if this question was asked before (can't find it in the previous forum). Do you have any interesting Zappa stories?

I'll have to have your email address. I would just post a link right here, but I don't think that's allowed.

See the little IM bubble to the left? That's PM.

Mr. Desper, have you seen that EPK-video on Brian´s site about the recording of the christmas-album or the video about the recording of SMiLE? What are your thoughts about it? How do you compare Brian´s working-style nowadays to how he worked back then with you?

Okay, check your private messages.

By the way, you should definitely watch the recording thing for the Christmas album, which is up on Brian's website. It's a much more relaxed environment with more experimentation and everything like you were describing. I think it's much more interesting than the SMiLE one. I think Brian actually said in a recent interview that he wants to learn to use Pro Tools in the near future. Of course, who knows if he ever will. Someone (Darian or Mark Linett or someone) should just sit down with him and make him learn it.

  I downloaded it.  I listened to it.  I did not record it.  They sounded fairly smoked out to me.  ~swd

Stephen,
Way back when, you had mentioned the possibility of record companies making multitracks available so that fans could perform their own mixes of their favorite material. It looks like we have entered that era. Billy Joel's new retrospective "My Lives" includes a couple tunes that can be mixed (and augmented w/ loops, etc) from an included 8-track set-up via "Umixit."
From the Billy Joel site:
"As an added bonus for Billy Joel fans, the My Lives box-set presents two songs--"Zanzibar" and "I Got To Extremes" (Live, Never Released)--in the revolutionary eight channel, multi-track UmixIt format. A groundbreaking new interactive music experience, UmixIt technology allows the listener to create personalized mixes on a PC. Using UmixIt, fans may mute, solo or add effects to the original recording; record new instrumental or vocal parts; or remix tracks with pre-loaded loops. With UmixIt, the creative possibilities are limitless."
Interesting?
Paul R.

Well, thanks for taking the time to listen. You have to admit, it's a great song nonetheless, isn't it!

Yes a few, but a litttle busy right now.  Ask me again after the holidays.  ~swd

"Zappa was one of the most competent guitarist/musicians I've worked with, including Hendrix."

Stephen, could you elaborate on working with Hendrix?  What recordings, and with what band? 

The Beach Boys were to play the festival, but because COKE was a sponsor, Mike Love wanted to pass on the occasion, so they pulled out.  Remember at the time Mike and Brian were into health foods and good living(?).  Anyway, their sound system was already in place for all the artists to use.  I went with the system.  It was my good fortune to mix all these great artists for the live feed.  Other crews were for recording and for filming.  Here is Hendrix at sound check in the afternoon. Check out those Altec stage monitors.

Wow!! I thought that the Beach Boys pulled out because of the debacle over Smile and that they thougt that they would be booed!! So they didn't like Coke. Fair enough i suppose, but considering the status of Monterey now, it was a bit of a bad decision.

I don't know what's so groundbreaking about it...

Actually, something does occur to me Andrew: Given that the Surf's Up on the album of the same name was 'vocally enhanced' by Carl in Brian's section due, we're told, to damage done to the original tapes, what are the chances of this GV version being all Brian or mostly Brian with a bit of Carl? And if all Brian, why did Carl consider it not good enough to use as it was, as it sounds pretty good to me?

Its on record that Carl 'thickened' bits of Brian's demo in the second movement (SWD's Recording the BBs, p44), so I'm wondering where this corruption is on the GV box of Brian's solo Surf's Up, which sounds pretty good to my ears. Maybe SWD himself can answer the question if he pops by...

As well it should.  You ever spill some on the hood of the car?  HIGHLY corrosive!

Mr Desper,

I asked this question on a different thread (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?topic=164.0) regarding the use of Brian's solo Surf's Up performance as heard on the Good Vibrations Box Set in the released version of the song. Could you shed any light on this for us?

 

#1)  Don't confuse the sound track of the show with the sound track of the rehearsal of the show.

#2)  I don't believe you are hearing the double tracks where most of the damage was.

#3)  If you want me to continue posting on this board, please honor the copyright notice on the top of the page of my book which says: "Use is forbidden without written authorization. Receipt of this manuscript does not constitute permission granted for use, quotation or paraphrasing,"  and go back to your original plus your subsequent posts and delete the quotation from my book in your posts .  Thank you.    ~swd

Mr Desper,
My apologies.
brother john

P.S. So, you think that some of the GV track in question is single track only, in parts? I shall have to do some more listening, I think...
 

Mr Desper,

I've listened again to the two versions of Surf's Up, and absorbed your comments, and in a compare and contrast kind of way have found a few intriguing thing.....

You could always collapse the 2 tracks (Box-Set and Surf's Up album versions) to mono, synch them up and invert one. It may reveal the differences between the 2.

Thankyou Stephen, very much...

OK, I have just one more comment/question on this...

The swelling noise I mentioned and which you described as 'below noise level adjacent track leakage from unused tracks' (but from an unused track...? I don't know enough to understand this I don't think) is very apparent on the box set version of Surf's Up (track) but all but absent from the twofer with Sunflower (2000, 24-bit remaster). Can you explain this? I guess the only way to hear it the way it should be is to listen to the original 12" LP version, though in the UK these tend to be scarce and pricey.

I'm not Stephen, but I know the noise you're talking about.


I always assumed it was a slow swell from a crash cymbal emulating a tidal wave. Do you remember that happening by chance, Stephen?

I hope I understand what you are talking about.



The leakage is on the multitrack.  It's below noise, so when the twofer was made they used one of the digital noise cancellation algorythms (NONOISE) to remove some analog hiss, and along with that took out the leakage with the noise along with analog beauty.

The UK LP is one generation removed from its USA counterpart.  The most pure form is an early issue USA LP. The only release approved by Carl and myself. ~swd

via Mark Linett:  To be accurate, No-noise was not used on the twofer release of Surfs Up released around 2000. The only release to use No-noise was the one done in the early 90's which was supervised by Steve. I don't recall hearing any problems with Brian's vocal or double on either the original 3 track of the song or on the 16 track xfr that was made for the finished version in 1971. The version on the GV box is mixed directly from the original 3 track tape. This tape was copied to 16 track by the beach Boys around 1971 to create the 2nd half of the song as released on the album.


Mark Linett

Comment to Brother John --

You'd think that the sophistication of today's equipment would be able to produce a successful copy of an original recording. Only if the original is digital. If analog tape, the best method is the reverse copy. Its a shame that human intervention (in terms of noise-reduction etc.) has a tendency to spoil it for those that really care about the recordings.  That is why it was not used in the 2000 release. Better to hear the analog with all the hiss then to try to remove the hiss and along with it some of the beauty.  I like the sound of the Andrew Sandoval and Dan Hersch 2000 release best -- over and above the first one I sat in on.   

So, it seems that the released Surf's Up on the box set (the completed track, not the demo) is a more authentic version than the one on 2000's twofer?  I'd say the authentic version is on Reprise Records LP # RS 6453 and if you can find a matrix number 31237 it will be one of the Artisan originals.  (The matrix number is hand written on the land between the leadout groove.)

Thanks Stephen for pointing out that the UK version is a generation away from the original. Why? I suppose sending master tapes across the Atlantic without a bodyguard is just too risky. Ho hum.  It's not a matter of security, it's a matter of time.  The LP matrix is cut in soft acetate. The shape of the groove will be good for about twenty-four hours, but after that the acetate tends to drift back to its original shape loosing details in the sound. The pressing stampers must be plated from the original matrix within a day of it being cut. During the LP age, or even today, you could not get the matrix from the Hollywood cutting lathes to London's pressing plants that fast, so a tape copy was made for foreign releases.   ~swd

Mark, if you're still reading in, I have a question about the 3-track of Surf's Up.

Was the basic tracking session tracked in mono to one track, then overdubbed later with the horn section on another track and then an additional piano on the third track?

I have a compulsion to know exactly what the contents of every discrete track a Beach Boys ever recorded...

Comment to Brother John --

I like the sound of the Andrew Sandoval and Dan Hersch 2000 release best -- over and above the first one I sat in on.  ~swd

Stephen, which is the CD release of Sunflower that you like the best? I have two - the one that accompanies the Surf's Up release mentioned above, and a 'onefer' remastered by Joe Gastwirt and released in I think 1991. There is a difference in the sound of the two, notably in Brian's backgrounds in the breakdown of This Whole World, which seem to have a more pierceing treble to them on the Sandoval Hersch release. I also have an EMI Stateside Brother LP (SSLA 8251) though sadly I have no equpiment to listen to it on.

Thanks,

bj

Question for Brother John --

In your signature line you say, "Religion is a privilege, not a right."  Wouldn't the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution make it the other way around? ~swd 

I'd say the authentic version is on Reprise Records LP # RS 6453 and if you can find a matrix number 31237 it will be one of the Artisan originals.  (The matrix number is hand written on the land between the leadout groove.)

I haven't read the 1st Amendment, so I can't comment. I'm English, so naturally don't subscribe to it. I didn't put the comment in to annoy or offend anyone, but it saddens me to see so much hate and mistrust in this world, much of which is based on interpretations of worthy religious texts of the past. There is a huge gap in understanding between the East and the West right now, and the voices riased the loudest in condeming other people's beliefs seem to come from those who use religion to defend their views. Martin Amis, our great English writer and novelist, once said (I paraphrase, but it was a short quote) 'Religion is fine in the home, but don't bring it out onto the street.' That I do subscribe to.

Thanks for the advice Susan. Maybe I should pop over to Stephen's site and take another look at his blurb.

Stephen - are they still available, and do you have a link?

john

No longer available.  If you don't mind waiting on my time table, I could make a copy of SU and SF from a CD or LP through the matrix to a CD, so you would, at least, have that. ~swd

If it's possible to do that (make a CD of the albums as played through the matrix), why hasn't been released like that already? It seems that that would make a really interesting release, not to mention the most "official" way of hearing it aside from using the matrix itself. I guess it wasn't possible to do that in the 70s?

So Stephen, rather than set up the matrix each time I play the CD, I'd be better off copying the CD through the matrix, and then just playing the copy?  The results would be the same (the sound results, that is)?

Any idea how much that will cost?

Yeah, I was referring to the 360 surround thing, not the CD, although if it's going to cost that much, I might just have to get a CD. So there won't be any commercial versions of those matrixes you were selling for $75? Just the improved $1000 one?

By the way, Mr. Desper, how do you handle rattling caused by the bass amplifier when you're recording? Generally, for me, it's not much of a problem, but I'm recording a song at the moment where the bass is very prominent, and it's causing problems. I could, of course, just turn the volume down, but then I'd lose the tone I want. I think it's mainly the walls that are rattling. Is that just something I'll have to deal with when recording in a house?

It turned out it was the air vent. I unscrewed it, slipped a felt disc underneath it, and voilà, problem solved! thanks for the tip!

Stephen,
Regarding recording basses.
How do you get the bass to sit so well in a mix? Do you use much post-processing on it (compression, EQ)? Do you equalize other instruments frequencies so they don't clash into the bass? How do you get a consistent volume for a bass line that's varied in pitch a lot?

Yeah I tend to use direct injection.

Hey Steve, I almost forgot, but if you care to listen, I recorded this

http://www.someoneliving.com/aeijtzsche_silent_night_CTDT.mp3

partially in your honor, before christmas, but then the board went down...

Anyway, I attempted a common time domain environment, not sure if I was terribly succesful, but it was fun to try.

I set up my two LD-condensers in an XY formation, kind of used a wall to get some reflections, and at the same time I had my ribbon mic set up off to the side on which I sang the bass part.

Hey Steve, I almost forgot, but if you care to listen, I recorded this

http://www.someoneliving.com/aeijtzsche_silent_night_CTDT.mp3

partially in your honor, before christmas, but then the board went down...

Anyway, I attempted a common time domain environment, not sure if I was terribly succesful, but it was fun to try.

I set up my two LD-condensers in an XY formation, kind of used a wall to get some reflections, and at the same time I had my ribbon mic set up off to the side on which I sang the bass part.

Thats really neat! I never tried to do the XY formation and recording parts from different parts of the room. I always just setup one condenser and goto town. I have tried to do multiple vocals with just one or three voices.

It's not about vocals or the layering of vocals, rather it's about making one performer sound as if multiple performers being recorded in one acoustic space -- whether singing vocals or playing instruments. [/b] ~swd

ooh, I guess I misunderstood. Sorry. :p

Is the book youre talking about the same as the Sunflower/Surf Up recording notes? I saw your website eons ago about it and Ive wanted to get a copy but I wasnt sure if it was still going on...as Sunflower is one of my favorite BB albums. :)

PS:  If you were on the Disneyland payroll, the next step with the virtual band would be to put the speakers on movable MIDI controlled platforms so as to mimic the body movement of the players.  Such is the stuff of dreams.             

I don't have enough simultaneous outputs (or inputs, for that matter) to pull that off.  I am increasingly interested in re-amping though.

If I were on the Disney payroll, I'd also have a girl with a Sonovox talking through the bass guitar, saying "You're not applying enough compression to me, aeijtzsche...more compression, please...." and really freak him out as he's mixing the tracks.

Like that "Sparky and the talking piano" Disney record - freaky stuff. ;D

Mr. Desper,
Does the EMT plate have stereo outputs or is it only mono and that's why it sounds only two dimensional?
Arthur

Here's a convolution reverb impulse of an EMT 244. Credit to a Mr. Andreas Bernhard, whoever he may be:

http://s58.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3MTOFD51X9X6V2VI3TA2BWIN84

The plate reverb we have at bova sound was originally installed at the Ottawa National Arts Centre in 1967.

I have a question for Mr Desper about:
Our Prayer (Brian Wilson 'SMiLE' 2004) and
Our Prayer (Beach Boys, Recording date: 4 October, 1966. Additional vocals recorded fall 1968 (for 20/20))

By accident (I was testing all kinds of 'inbuilt' effects from a small mixing pannel, while I played a just a cd) I put Plate Reverb on Brian's "Our Prayer" version, and the sound  became almost the same as the released 20/20 version from the Beach Boys!
Conclusion: The 20/20 version is done with plate reverb effects?

(Not that it doesn't matter but if I should describe the difference in sound with words: 1968: warm, orange-brown; 2004: fresh, white blue)

Stephen, I re-read your book the other night and found myself with another question about something.

You mention that Bruce's lead vocal on "Deirdre" is processed through a "vocal blender."

What is that, and what exactly does it do to the signal?

James Burton also played Dobro on Cabinessence.

AFM SHEET #96164
At My Window (Titled Raspberries Strawberries on the sheet)

Diane Rovell
James Burton
David Cohen
Carl Fortina
Mort Klanfer
Stanley Levey
Jay Migliori
David Sherr

AFM SHEET #96165
This Whole World

Diane Rovell
David Cohen
Jerry Cole
John Conrad
Dennis Dragon
Gene Estes
Ray Pohlman

AFM SHEET #109700
Tears in the Morning

Carl Wilson
Ronald Benson
Hal Blaine
Daryl Dragon
Carl Fortina
Ray Pohlman

AFM SHEET #UNKNOWN and INCOMPLETE
It's About Time

Earl Palmer
Dennis Dragon
Carl Wilson
Daryl Dragon

That's it as far as sheets for sessions at the house go, at least as far as sheets I'm in possesion of.  There were a few big string and horn overdubs in staggered sessions at the house as well that there are AFM sheets for, actually.

Mr. Desper, that's a wonderful anecdote!
I had posed a question below about Surf's Up. Someone on this board (or earlier incarnation) had mentioned that you had tried to synchronize the 1st part of the Brian piano demo for Surf's Up with the instrumental track (i.e., instead of Carl supplying the vocals to pt. 1 of Surf's Up, the Brian vocals from the demo would have been dubbed down and synched to the instrumental recording of pt. 1). Is this true? Did it sound okay? If so, did the BB's prefer that Carl sing the part?
Thanks,
Arthur

James Burton....hmm. As an Elvis-fanatic, it would be cool if he really played on this one while also being Elvis' lead-guitarist.

Hey Steve, you had 5 AKG D-1000 microphones in your touring package with the Beach Boys. 

What did you use them for, both on the road and in the studio?  I just picked one up for pretty cheap.

Steve,

I do not have the Sunflower/Surf's up book so if this is mentioned in it, please excuse me. What was the drum mic'ing setup that you used? Did you mic up every individual piece? Maybe an XY arrangement? Curious on your thoughts on this matter, as we're tracking drums this weekend. :)

-Joe

I hear ya, I was just curious what were some of your preferences.

When we recorded our first EP, we mic'd every single piece. So that I can control the sonic space of every single piece of the kit. Unfortunately, we recorded that at the local community college, where we recorded on a Sony 24 track tape and had a plethora of external gear. This time we're doing it at my place, where we're a bit...limited. Thinkin about mic'in kick (not sure what mic we're using), mid and floor tom with a SM57, snare with an SM57, and we have a B1 Behringer Condensor on the crash. Im worried about the hihats and ride..still dont have mics for that...have to figure it out by tomorrow evening. I was thinkin about trading in the B1 for the RODE NT5 (dual pencil condensor mics) and work on an XY configuration.

oh well, was hopin to have a fun discussion with this..off to tapeop I go :)

take care
-Joe

Steve,

I do not have the Sunflower/Surf's up book so if this is mentioned in it, please excuse me. What was the drum mic'ing setup that you used? Did you mic up every individual piece? Maybe an XY arrangement? Curious on your thoughts on this matter, as we're tracking drums this weekend. :)

-Joe

p.s. The other sound engineer and I were talkin, and we're thinkin about having the condensor in the Middle, two SM57's on LEFT and RIGHT (overview) and then mic'in the kick and snare. Only problem with that is that Im afraid the sm57s wont pick the cymbals and hihat too clear. Anyway, we have a few ideas we're gonna try out so Im excited!

That is what we're worried about, with the leakage. When we recorded our first ep all the mics were right up to the drum and it sounded so sweet. The mix down on the drums was very detailed in the sense of panning. Since we're limited this time around it seems like we will have more of an overall sound. So we will have to work on the mic positioning. I really don't mind, we have a new drummer and he's a lot jazzier than our previous drummer, it might just work out. What I'm concerned about (and you brought this up on a previous post) is how he can intensify as the song plays through and eventually plays really hard. We're going to have to sit down and talk to him about keeping the intensity of the hits mid-level and keep the sound sweet and round with not too much of a 'punch'. If we were able to mic every single piece, then this wouldnt be a problem.

Another unfortunate circumstance, since we're recording this in my bedroom, the computer/sound unit (I use an Aardvark Q10) will be in the same room. I was hoping to move the computer to another room, but in the end, it wont work out. So we have to do a lot of the leveling visually using the input mixer levels.  :o


-Joe

I think we talked about EV 666s and RE-15s.  But I am losing my mind, so we may very well have had a 2-hour long conversation about D1000s four hours ago for all I know.

We are recording the drums and the bass together at the same time. The bass is direct in. I have a feeling we'll have six inputs dedicated to the drums (kick, snare, tom 1, tom 2, overhead left, overhead right) and then the remaining two inputs will goto the bass and one guitar. (The band setup is 2 guitars, bass, drums, drum machine/moog synth)
-Joe

Like, record snare kick and toms up close. Then overdub the ride and hihat -- or some such order.  You don't need to record all the drums at the same time if you use a click track.[/b]  ~swd

I especially hate click tracks when Im trying to record an instrument, its just too solid and straight forward with absolutely no groove!
-Joe

I'll see what I can do.

When did the problem begin?

Success!
take care
-Joe

Stephen, my suggestion is to delete any cookies you have on your computer that reference smileysmile.net.  Then log back in and choose "forever." 

"I Googled this guy and he's really an engineer with a finger in lots of different stuff. Claims to have engineered BB albums for 4 years (1968-1972; you could validate this by examining the CD/vinyl credits)."

Mr. Desper,

Just thought you might like to know that the blueboard (www.brianwilson.com) has seen a lot of activity by a lot of (really, really uninformed) people who appear to a) question your involvement in Beach Boys work (!) and b) question the legality and/or morality of your copying of the twofers through your device. I tried to argue for you, but alas...some people won't be convinced.

Hello Mr Desper. Do you think people who record quickly and don't experiment with mic placement, mic selection, etc can't get a decent recording? I've read Behind the Glass about producers and for every situation it semed like everyone had a different approach to recording. I've really enjoyed reading this thread because its like being in recording school.

Amen. Thanks, Mr. Desper.

In regards to my comments I made on the device, I was referring to the 360Surround device. I've got no idea what your analog box looks like. But that domestic 360Surround thing looked really ropey. It was advertised on your site as being of a high quality build with high quality connectors, but it looked like a piece of junk to me. That's my opinion. As I said in my original post, I've never heard the thing, so it may be amazing for all I know. But it didn't look high quality to me.

That is one of the most ignorant things i've read in a long, long time.  A sound device LOOKS like junk...so without hearing it, you assume it doesn't work.

I'm speechless. 

I read it, Robert.  What astounds me is your assumption of how well the thing works based on a photgraph of it.  It is a SOUND DEVICE.  One must actually HEAR IT before one can make a judgement on how it works.

This isn't my fight...i just think you should hear what the device does before you denegrate it.

(snip)
As for the $20 fee, I'm sure if you were to sit down and calculate how much Mr. Desper's time is valued by the hour, $20 would barely cover the time for him to sit down, burn you a cd, put it in a package, and send it back to you. So cut him some slack, he wants to help BB fans get true engineered sounds from the albums he worked on.

If you're having a problem on affording the $20, maybe we can start a drive? :shrug

Ok, it seems that you guys are referring to my response to a thread on www.BrianWilson.com. Originally I couldn't be bothered to argue the toss on this, but seeing as I'm being referred to by name, I might as well put it direct to the man.

First of all Mr Desper, I think the stuff you did with the Beach Boys was awesome. In the current era when engineering aspires for plainness and invention within the confines of accepted boundaries, those who ignore and innovate beyond those boundaries are in short supply. Thank you for your kind words.

However, I can not see any way in which you can justify charging $20 for the act of simply copying a disc. I agree.  A simple copy should be done for free. This is not a simple copy.  Read the information on the site. >>> http://community-2.webtv.net/askswd/CopyServiceInfo/ I understand that you feel that you have a right to do this under the terms of the Home Recording Act. At best you may have the right to recover basic media and copying costs, but there is no way you have the right to recover costs against previous commercial development. This is not a commercial business. I'm providing this service for Beach Boy fans as an educational discovery. This is a chance to hear what we've all been talking about for years and years, but what the actual commercial market has failed to address. That is clearly outside the bounds of the Home Recording Act. Like many things in Law, interpertation is sometimes varied. However in this case we are not taling about large numbers. I doubt that there will be more than fifty takers of my offer. I think Bootlegs are much more of a problem. Nevertheless, if I continue to get feedback such as yours, I will end the offer.  It's more of a labor of love than anything.  Frankly, I've got more on my plate than I can handle, but as I said before, I not only have a history with the group, I'm also a fan. I believe my fellow Beach Boy fans would enjoy and find of interest hearing these recordings the way I listen to them. I can't transport all the fans to my livingroom, but I can make a copy of their CD that will reproduce on their system to a great degree as closer to what Carl and I heard durning mixdown. Again, this is purly an educational exercise. I also fail to understand how, if you have built multi-million businesses around it and have all these valuable patents on the technology, why you would need to recover costs for development from this scheme. I built a business on my patented invention. We're talking here about mastering techniques that I use. It's apples and fruitcakes. You're way out of your league on this one. I'm retired from the recording business. I'm still a BB fan and the albums I recorded still interest me -- and some of the folks that are still fellow fans.  You have no right to recover costs on a technology you have developed on the back of master recordings owned by someone else. You are correct. But I'm not making copies of master recordings. I'm just copying a fan's CD from my digital player to analog to some processing devices and back to a digital CD cutter.  The way you talk it would seem that anyone playing a CD on their computer and applying EQ or dynamic compression schemes (MP3) has no right to do this either.  You know, you could also accept a fan's CD in the mail and make a copy of it in some modified way that you believe is better and send it back to them. I don't think the record companies care if people add bass, treble, mid-range, compression, or other changes to their product as long as the product is bought and paid for so the record company gets their due profit and the artist gets their due royalties.  Do you know it is illegal to play a CD on the radio?  Why do they get away with it.  Because it creates a market for the music.  It use to be that the record companies thought that digital was going to ruin them. All the file sharing and such.  But CD sales are up -- the reason, it's created a new market -- a market that the big companies are recognising as a source of income.

You may charge $200 an hour for work, but this is not professional work you are doing, and again if it was then it would be clearly outside the boundaries of the Home Recording Act. I said my time was worth 200/hr, not that I'm charging that amount.  What is your time worth? Everyone's time is worth something.  I base mine on annual income divided by normal work hours in a given year. In other words, my time has a decent value and I have a reputation in this industry. There is value there. To give away my time is to devalue it and the service I'm providing to my fellow fans. You give the impression that you are just dedicated to the music and the fans hearing it in the way you feel as the engineer, is the best way to hear it. That is correct. Yet if it was purely a labour of love, you not be charging $20 for it. The love is free.  It's the labor that takes time and time is money.

Non of that adds up to me.  I hope I am changing your outlook.

In regards to my comments I made on the device, I was referring to the 360Surround device. I've got no idea what your analog box looks like. But that domestic 360Surround thing looked really ropey. It was advertised on your site as being of a high quality build with high quality connectors, but it looked like a piece of junk to me. That's my opinion. As I said in my original post, I've never heard the thing, so it may be amazing for all I know. But it didn't look high quality to me.  I made the 360Surround device only for Beach Boy fans.  I made it as cheap as I could without compromising quality of sound to a large degree.  Yea you could say it looks dopy -- it was not intended for the commercial market. It's built in a PVC tube with seals on each end. It looks dopy all right, but the fans don't care.  You put it out of sight when you hook it up. The advertisment does not mention connectors, which are standard nickel plated copper. Gold connetors would push the price up and not improve the sound.  Remember the 360Surround device was made for fans only and in limited quantity. They can only afford too much. I wanted to reach as many as I could.  But I have my standards too.  I put the building money into good internal components. Capcitors were audio grade panasonic types or polyisters selected for low disapation factors, all resistors were 1% film types, the power supply was a requlated type, the circuit board met NASA specs.  All this gave specifications (derived by an independent testing laboratiory) of Frequency Response +/- 0.01dB from 5Hz to 50Hz; THD of .016% at 20dB beyond the normal operational level; noise of -108dBu from 20Hz to 20kHz. These are specifications that exceed those of a CD or DVD.

I'll tell you a funny story.  A friend of mine whos family lives in Lebanon decided to take a 360Surround unit to his brother who is a Beach Boy fan.  But when I got to customs they confiscated the unit because it looked like a bomb!  And it does look somewhat like a firecracker, I'd say. In the end I mailed one to him.  So the looks are sort of dopy -- but the sound is not.  

Regards the possibility of modeling the device in software: As I understand it from elsewhere in this thread, you have already produced a digital hardware version of the professional device. I would be really surprised if it was not possible to emulate the functions of such a device in software. It can only be a matter of processing power if it is difficult. Well thank you for your engineering insight.  My team of engineers wrote software that sold in the millions of licenses that mimiced the workings of the origninal patented analog device.  It was OK for the mass market. I think the analog version sounds better and I have gone on to improve it far beyond what is out there.  However the market is very small for such improvements so they live in my lab at the moment. Seeing as many filters such as Dolby Pro Logic and SQ are possible to recreate in software, I find it hard to believe that a technology encoded into a record in the early 1970's could not be decoded in software in 2006. I suggest you put down your calculator and listen to some good old LPs on fine equipment.  You just don't know how good music can sound. Dolby in digial sounds different than Dolby in analog. I feel for you guys of the digital generation. You think a sampled piano instrument is the same sound as an acoustic piano.   There needn't be any costs involved in developing such a decoder, its the sort of project the open source community would pounce upon. Here we go again with all this free talk.  You're the kind of engineer I've been looking for -- one that works for free. What a value your time is!  Again it's not about developing algorythms. Yes it is. And you have to listen in real time.  That is, you can't speed up the process. The chances are you could probably emulate the device component by component if need be. However, I think it would probably be easy to write the algorythms within the community.  Why don't you do that for the community then?

I understand that you have valuable patents on the work and opening up such technology would potentially devalue that technology. But, it just seems silly that you have this technology that you say is so fantastic, but it is not available to anyone, unless they have your handmade device. No what I said was that I have offered the keys to unlock the trapped version that is encoded within the CD but the record companies prefer to stay with what they have.  I think the diehard fan would like to hear the alternate version and I'm offering them the chance to compare as an educational exercise. Exploited commercially the software route could make your patents really deliver profits for you. If you sold that software for $20, I would probably buy it, if I was convinced that there was any real benefit to using it. In fact if there was a product available for $12.95 that plugged in to winamp, I'd be right up for it.  You have no idea how the market works.  You can download anything you want and use it.  However, If you want the guy who originally recorded these albums to make a copy of them and optimize the sound of them in his fasion, then here's your chance.  

Do you think the product at http://store.yahoo.net/spatializer-estore/spatstreamfo.html could do that? That is the company that owns your patents isn't it? It must be a totally different technology, because, as you said before, it would be very difficult to translate your technology into software, that you could buy for a PC for $12.95. Surf's up and Sunflower do sound quite interesting through this plugin though, with the default settings anyway. In this CD copy offer, we are looking for more than PC sound through plugin that downloads for next to nothing.  Don't get me as past Beach Boy recording engineer mixed up with me as founder of Spatializer.

And this is my last problem with the whole thing. I don't understand what this device or process or whatever it is is supposed to be doing. It's a spatializer isn't it? What makes it different to other spatializers? I've got quite a good understanding of wave physics theory, can you refer me to the patents numbers so I can research what is actually going on?  Mastering is not a device nor a process, it's an art form.  You're too mixed up with numbers to understand the concept of art, me thinks.   

So I'm afraid I remain of the opinion that it is a scam, Mr Desper.  Not one 360Surround device has been return to me for refund. 40 million chips have been sold. Many more millions of licenses have been issued to manufactures by the company.  It's not a scam.  Nor is my copy idea.  So please, keep your money and your standard copy. Your level of enjoyment is not what this offer is aimed to please.  ~swd

Hi Stephen,

My dad picked up a Sunflower LP, Brother Records/Reprise Records 6382, RS 6382, printed in Canada. I was just wondering if this was "as good as" the US LP release which you have said is the best way to hear the album. Do you know if LPs printed in Canada use the same masters as the US ones, in general?

Your other question about sending blanks is a good one.  I should make that clear in the offer.  As you may know, CD cutters seem to work better with some brands of blanks than others.  I've found the brand that works best for my cutter and I'll be using that one.  How much are they anyway?  All of seven cents or so?[/b]  ~swd

Mr Desper,

Ok, thank for your detailed reply. If your 360Surround device really was the business, then I commend you on your independant style of invention and production. Thanks. I will say that I said "ropey" and not "dopy". I wondered about the word.

Your reply prompts some further questions, and prehaps some further probing on questions that I feel remain inadequately addressed.

I had already read the webpage that desribes the procedure. The question I feel I have to ask is, are you effectively remastering each disc from scratch through you system? Are you not holding an iso and just reburning it? And does that actually require manual mastering, or is that something you can leave running in the background? Even if you are treating each disc individually, I suspect that you have the same legal standing, being it in or against your interest. The only difference between me making a copy for someone, and asking them to compensate me for my time, and this offer is the postal service. I suspect that the legal standing is up to interpertaion, usually done in a court of law. If someone like BRI objects, then I quite. But as you can see from the comments here on this board, it would be a bad PR move for them with the fans. Besides we are talking such small numbers here.  Perhaps the best thing is to just have each fan call me and we discuss terms privately. Forget the Internet. To me the bottom line of the legal argument is, did I take some income away from The Beach Boys or the record company?  I don't see how I did by requiring proof that the person to whom the copy will be sent supply an original CD that they bought.  My copy doesn't replace another copy they would have bought. They don't want another regular copy so they are not going out and buying one. What they want is the copy improved by me.  Actually, if they do not have the required twofer at this time but want me to make an "improved" copy for them, they would need to go and buy the CD.  That would actually increase the income to the record company.  So it's a good thing for the record company, the fan and me.  Don't you agree? 
I feel there is a difference between copying from your cd to your own computer. That is covered within the Home Recording Act, and is fair use.  Don't confuse distribution and coping. I am not distributing anything.  I am making a one for one copy. ( see subchapeter C 1003 (a) of Copyright Law of The United States of America
and Related Laws Contained in Title 17 of the United States Code (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap10.html))  Read it yourself.

I would also cite Section 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

"Notwithstanding the provisions of Sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use, the factors to be considered will include the following:

* the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes." 

This re-mastered copy is for educational comment, historical comparison, and critical judgement. It is not for my profit. My charge is for a service, not a product -- and believe me, there is no profit being realized by me . . . that's for certain. My time is worth more to me than making copies of CD's for people. But as a fan, I want my fellow fans to hear and comment. So how is this done?  By making a copy.  How else? 

Suggest you read this very interesting article entitled:   Copying music to CD: the right, the wrong, and the law - CD-recordable devices, copyright law - includes related articles on the Recording Industry Association of America and the fair use doctrine (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FXG/is_n2_v11/ai_20179371)

As I understand it, in America, when a cd is played on the radio, one of the two major mechanical music licensing companies act to recover fees from airplay and pass it on to the licence owners. So those dudes get paid. To the best of my knowledge it is not illegal to play a cd on the radio. There maybe restrictions against this marked on the disc itself, but by andlarge they are not applicable, andas the vast majority of records held by radio station are promos, and most stuff is held digitally off disc anyway, it is not an issue. Also, record companies are by and large one hundred percent behind their recordings being played on the radio, because it shifts more records.

By the way, in the UK at least, over the last two years cd sales have been way way way down. AND LP sales are way, way, way up!

I find your reasoning over you rates for this service to be a little confusing. You say you've retired from the business, but you need to protect your rates, but at the same time, its still not really clear how much work you are doing on this. Are you really remastering the same record over and over again everytime you get an order?  If, as a fan, you want to accept the terms of my offer, then do so.  If you don't, then move on. No one is holding a gun to your head.

Both the formats I referred to, Dolby Pro Logic and SQ were actually analog. I've got a healthy set of decent vinyl that I've hunted down over the last few years. I am familiar with the analog sound. I think Dobly Digital AC3 is a pretty aweful format. i know the differnce between a digital piano and a real piano, and I'd take a real piano any time. You made some assumptions about what I think, Mr Desper. I don't remember bringing numbers into it either. Glad to know you are analog aware.  Good man!

I'm interested in how the software availible on the Spatializer website differs from the hardware version. I know your hardware analog version is heavily refined, but would it be worth me buying the winamp pluging anyway, as it theoretically based on the same technology, or is it really not worth the bother?  That you will have to decide for yourself. It depends on your standards of excellence.  I had a falling out with the company over some of the software versions of my invention. I did not approve of the sound. But they went ahead and released what they thought would sell.  I sold most of my interest at that point. I prefer the early analog chips we made, but have move so far ahead from those early patents that I don't even call what I'm now doing anything like Spatilaizer(R).   

The real problem is, sometimes you talk like you are mastering, and sometimes like you are copying. So what exactly are you doing? Are you copying or mastering? I was quite suprised when you said that I don't understand becasue "mastering is an artform" because generally, this whole process has been describesd as "copying" or "transfering" through your device. All of a sudden mastering comes into it. It is very easy to get confused.  I guess it could be confusing to someone who does not have insight into the industry. I apologize.  Mastering is a selected form of making a copy. The copy is a transfer from one form to another.  The mastering industry came about during LP times. An LP is a mechanical means of signal storage as opposed to the magnetic storage of tape.  Record production first goes to tape and then to the LP.  Mastering engineers had to make the tape product work for the mechanical product. As time passed, mastering also included conforming one song to another so that there was a consistent "sound signature" to the CD or LP and also consistent with other CD or LP releases.  Also true for cassettes which are mastered seperately.  Now days most of mastering is the final sound signature to make the CD sound good on many playback systems of the real world. This is highly specialized and is not an act of engineering as much as an art form. Take your CD to ten mastering houses and you will get ten different sounding CDs.  It's art.  ====  A copy is a duplicate of an original.  You try to make one resemble the other.  So, I am not making a straight or duplicate copy as much as a re-mastered copy.  I'm not mastering because I'm not working with the pre-master, master tapes. I'm taking an alreeady mastered CD and modifying it.  I would call that "re-mastering" for lack of a better term.  OR, I'm making a copy with some modifications.  It's all kind of nebulous, but I think we all understand each other. 
Even if you are carrying out a full remastering of every disc from scratch, I doubt the legal basis in taking money for it. At the end of the day comes night, and my whole involvemnt in this discuss came from somebody posting a message regarding your service, to which I replied "thats sound illegal to me". Even if you have gone to great lengths to remain with in the law, I think you're on seriously shakey ground. Maybe, but I want the fans to hear what should have been released, even if I get called on the carpet. Even if you think it is not a scam, (and if your shares still have any value then I doubt you need that sort of money) the chances are, even when working on such a small scale, a legal authority would not view in such a way. Undoubtedly. What is with you and this scam issue?  If I offer to return your money if you don't like the copy, what kind of scam is that?  Do you think I don't have faith in what I'm doing and believe the fans are stupid? Believe me, it's a challange to please them. They have high standards. And, who knows, they may reject my ideas altogether and this whole exercise is a bust.  There's always an "if" in l i f e. 

As  I said originally, I think your work with the Beach Boys was awesome, and I know you had major contributions to the  Spring album as well. If you really are doing it as a labour of love, then fairplay, but it is vey unfortunate that you are charging money for the service, as I seriosuly doubt the legality. On the surface, unfortunately it appears as crass profiteering on past glories.  Thanks for your observation.  On the surface maybe to the uninformed.  Crass?  re: unfeeling, uncouth, crude. To the contray, the whole reason is to bring to the real Beach Boy fan a touch of sound he/she has been denighed by the, shall we say, crass record companies who should have know better, in my opinion. Profeteering?  That would be offering at an unrealistic price, say $100 per song.  As far as I'm concerned, the service charge is for my expertise, which has value. Although you have said some nice things about my past engineering work, you now seem to feel that my expertise is worth little.  I'm not giving my experience away for free. That's the way it is. Take it or leave it.  ~swd

So that means YOU provide the blanks, right?  I don't have to include them?

Happy now, Mr. Wheeler?

  It's not him, it was what someone said over at the blueboard about digital copies of what I am proposing ending up on Ebay.  I don't like bootlegs as it corrupts the industry and robs the artist of his dues.  The poster made a good point that I wish to take under advisement and discuss with my lawyers.  ~swd

I see.  I stand corrected.

Sorry--I'm just very disappointed.  I was going to send out my CDs to you on Monday.

Before I answer Mr. Wheeler, let us try to keep this impersonal.  I think Mr. Wheeler is doing a good job at that.  It's nothing personal between Wheeler and myself in this discussion. His input is valued by me.  Thanks.

Mr. Desper,
Surely it's not your problem if copies of the decoded Sunflower and Surf's Up end up on Ebay? Ebay are normally quite quick at ending illegal or bootleg auctions.

Those are all screenshots from the video for Time To Get Alone from the American Band documentary. Matinee, you haven't seen that? If not, do.

DESPER -- I don't know how much info I can add here.[/b]
Here are some stills from AB, hopefully it's ok to post them.  All of the Beach Boys studio.
DESPER -- Looks like Ricky Fatar (Flame) with his back to us in the white shirt. Bruce is looking at the camera. Carl has a red shirt on. And Alan in the strips. Mike is looking over Alan's head.   
Just through the door looking in to the studio
(http://www.someoneliving.com/Beachboys.jpg)
Steve at the consoles with an EV re-15 as the talkback mic...
DESPER -- Ricky Fatar looks on.  3M Tape Machine in BG.
Looks as if I'm riding gain as was my preference over manually doing it I used the limiters
for smoothing but my hand on the knob to stress the emotion.
I also use to bring up the ends of vocal notes, sometimes as much
as 10dB so that the ending of words or lines could be heard later on as the mix developed.
(http://www.someoneliving.com/beachboys2.jpg)
Al playing Carl's(?) Tele thru a Fender Amp.
DESPER -- Looks like Dennis, shirtless and in shorts, is rolling a joint -- or something in a plastic bag.
Sound baffles in background
(http://www.someoneliving.com/beachboys3.jpg)
Bruce at the Rhodes, Brian's awesome Baldwin Theater Organ in the background
DESPER -- Looks like Bruce's finished salad on the Rhodes.
(http://www.someoneliving.com/beachboys4.jpg)
The Boys around the U67 in Omni?
DESPER -- Bruce looking at Brian in the flowerd shirt. Carl's head just sceen at the right.
When mike sang higher parts he moved to the group's mic.
(http://www.someoneliving.com/beachboys5.jpg)
Mike doing a jig in front of his seperate RCA 77
DESPER -- The studio looks jammed up with equipment.  Must have been getting ready or
finishing up with sideman session, otherwise the studio was much more accommodating.
(http://www.someoneliving.com/beachboys6.jpg)
Into the control room
DESPER -- me and Alan. The control room was 2/3's room and 1/3'ed monitor enclosure.
Not a big control room but still had great & true sound. The studio had a 13 foot ceiling. You can
see a beam inside the studio which actually went up 12 inches beyond what is visable. Hanging
down between the beams are "clouds" or acoustic absorbers suspended from the ceiling. Looking
on up into the studio was actually looking up through the window to the mezzanine level beyond the wall.
As you may know, the control room use to be a sewing room only entered by a
hidden door behind a "built-in" shelf at the right side of the fireplace. We took out the shelves
on the left of the fireplace and made that window.
The door and stairway leading up to the control room were to the right of the fireplace.
If you look to the left of the window you can see how thick the walls were in this old house. 
Maybe 12 inches solid.
(http://www.someoneliving.com/beachboys7.jpg)

Thanks for the memories!!  ~swd

==============================================

Mr. Desper -- I would love to hear any commentary on what I would assume is an alternate mix of Time to Get Alone played while this footage is shown.  The rising vocals are far more prominent on the choruses and I think I may prefer it that way.  Did you do this or was it done after the fact by others (assuming you have this video)?

I can't view the photos that Mr. Desper posted. Is anyone else having trouble with that?

Otherwise, cool stuff. What an interesting weekend I missed!

MICHAEL -- I posted most all those photos on freeimagehosting.net.  I looked at my account and all the codes are there but it says the image is not.  According to this site, they hold images for 60 days.  I don't have time to research what happened.  I just wish you could put an image on smileysmile.com directly.  If you could I'd post a lot more stuff, but it's such a hassel to post an image I don't do it often -- and then you see what happens. 

If someone has any suggestions about this proceedure I'm open to hearing it as other posters don't seem to have such hassels.

Since this website has disconnected me without notice on several occasions, this time I assembled that posting in WORD and copied it over to Smileysmile.com for posting.  All the wording and codes are still there. No sense in re-posting since freeimagehosting.net is where the problem is. But, I could upload the images again some time to another service and go from there.

The other strange thing is that the last three images are stored on another image service, picsplace.to.  Two of those images are gone also, but the photo of me remains.  ?? go figure ?? ~swd 

I can see the photos as well. I went ahead and saved them to my computer. Thanks so much!

He and I both stated how Blondie had pulled off such a Carl-like sounding vocal, even to the pronunciation of the words.  But he assured me it was Blondie.  Some of the tracks were from before but the lead was re-sung.  So, that ends that debate -- at least in my head.[/b]  ~swd

(knowing that the sounds at the end of that track are real, I can't wait for Desper's stories on THAT one...)

 ;D

Mr. Desper,

Have you closely compared your vocal only track and the Holland "Sail On Sailor" track? I have a hard time hearing "Carl" in the official release, to me it sounds unmistakingly like a Blondie lead. Furthermore, if you were out of the picture when the Blondie lead was recorded after the band returned from Holland, how could you have access to a vocals only mix?

Surely, it's way possible that 1. I don't know squat about Carl's and Blondie's voices and 2. You werent working with the Beach Boys anymore but you could have been given the vocals only mix of Sail on Sailor by Carl as a gift in 1973.

I apologize If I'm bothering you with a subject that's already closed.

The non-musical fade, as you would expect from a Dennis wilson production, is, according to engineer Desper, precisely what is sounds like.

Hi Mr Desper,

I got two questions which I hope haven't been asked before.
First, I know many BBs-fans who ould like to know if that "sex sound" on the coda to "All I want to do" from 20/20 was a fake or real. Normally I would say "fake", but ith Dennis nothing seems so sure I believe...
And second, how came that you and the BBs used this radically different sound on Sunflower compared to the album before (20/20) ? Sunflower sounds like from another world compared to the "old class"-sound of 20/20. Had it anything to do with the change to Warner?

Looks like Chuck deleted the old thread?

BTW, the petition was delivered to Brother Records and Capital Records on January 24.  Post office even gave me a signed confirmation for each.

Chuck is working on making Stephen's messages available ASAP.

Mr Desper,

Seeing as the analouge/digital debate came up in our discussion, I wonder if you would be interested in having a look at www.sa3.com .  The a-b samples on there are pretty cool.

Hi Stephen

I've got a bit of a 'how long is a bit of string' type question, which is:  how many different vocal parts can be happening at once and still allow the human ear to discern each part without it all becoming a big mush of sound..?

stacked harmonies wouldn't count, it has to be one different part for each voice, so 5 part harmony would indeed count, but 5 part harmony with eaxch part doubled would not.

I'm pretty sure it saves the actual picture and not the address to the host for it.

................................

Mr Desper,

At times i'll have a lot of trouble with my self-confidence while recording a song. I do believe I have decent enough equipment to attain decent recordings so I can assume it's just my perceptions of the recording not being "as good" as it "could be". I'm wondering if you've ever been dissatisfied with any recordings you've done? Also were there ever a time when any Beach Boy, or the whole group together felt that something could've been recorded better, sung better, or played better?

I've read about Brian disliking his voice on "Let Him Run Wild", and he being ticked off about the chorus in "California Girls" sung slightly off beat, but i'm more interested in the days of which you spent with the group.

For those who wanna know: I've found out that the tune Sail On Sailor is in perfect pitch, like f.e. A=440
As history tells it , I believe it was the only song completely recorded in the USA, unlike the rest, in Holland.

All the other songs of the album are slightly lower in pitch ( I cannot play along with it, on a normal tuned piano)

Steven this has been discussed a few times before and speculated on, but can you offer any insights as to why Brian didn't sing lead on "A Day In The Life of a Tree"?  Most of us figure that it was just too personal and sad for him to want to go anywhere near it.  I'd be really curious to hear any thoughts you may have.  Thanks!

Mr. Desper,

Have you closely compared your vocal only track and the Holland "Sail On Sailor" track? I have a hard time hearing "Carl" in the official release, to me it sounds unmistakingly like a Blondie lead. Furthermore, if you were out of the picture when the Blondie lead was recorded after the band returned from Holland, how could you have access to a vocals only mix?

Surely, it's way possible that 1. I don't know squat about Carl's and Blondie's voices and 2. You werent working with the Beach Boys anymore but you could have been given the vocals only mix of Sail on Sailor by Carl as a gift in 1973.

I apologize If I'm bothering you with a subject that's already closed.

Isn't that the driving force behind progress?  Our dissatisfaction with the present?  Of course who hasn't been displeased with their performance -- that is why there is a "backspace" key on your keyboard, a rewind key on your tape recorder, and an eraser at the end of your pencil.  We all strive to do better than we did the last time -- we push ourselves. Take one, Take two, Take three, Take four, Take five.  Who gets it on the first take?  Very few.  Then there is LIVE.  No rewind at a concert or for that matter in life.

Hi Mr Desper,

I got two questions which I hope haven't been asked before.
First, I know many BBs-fans who ould like to know if that "sex sound" on the coda to "All I want to do" from 20/20 was a fake or real. Normally I would say "fake", but ith Dennis nothing seems so sure I believe...
And second, how came that you and the BBs used this radically different sound on Sunflower compared to the album before (20/20) ? Sunflower sounds like from another world compared to the "old class"-sound of 20/20. Had it anything to do with the change to Warner?

Thank you very much for the reply Steven!  Very interesting that Brian really thought Jack's voice was best for the song...I can hear his production touch all over it but I really thought the weight of the song was the reason he didn't sing it.  Tree is one of my favorites so I appreciate the info!

Thanks Mr. Desper - that was certainly the full "widescreen - surround sound" version of the special Dennis session story! Just for accuracy's sake (and so some don't think that Dennis' sexual escapades involved hammers and saws!), this session was for the tag to "All I Want To Do", not "Do It Again" (despite Dennis' repeat performance).

Thanks Mr. Desper - that was certainly the full "widescreen - surround sound" version of the special Dennis session story! Just for accuracy's sake (and so some don't think that Dennis' sexual escapades involved hammers and saws!), this session was for the tag to "All I Want To Do", not "Do It Again" (despite Dennis' repeat performance).

ive been listening to Do it Again all morning and wondering where the hell the 'lovin' was...i was thinkin dennis must have been into a dominatrix or something, haha

Actually, you can hear someone yelp during the Workshop sequence at 2:18..

st for accuracy's sake (and so some don't think that Dennis' sexual escapades involved hammers and saws!)

Thanks to Dan Lega for supplying them, and Andrew Gladwin for posting them, we've got more Desper archives over at Cabinessence.net: 
http://www.surfermoon.com/essays/desperarchive2.html

No it's Brian. Al was up north when we recorded this part. The lyric was more due to the influence of Jack R. than
anyone. ~swd

Steven, there is a debate over in the "who sang what thread" about the end of "A Day in the Life of a Tree" that your opinion would weigh greatly on...who is singing "oh lord I lay me down" during the tag with Van Dyke?

shameless plug ;)

Stephen,

Don't hate me if this was asked before, but was 'Our Prayer' re-recorded for 20/20? Or did they use any tracks from SMiLE? The reason I ask is because there are a few harmonies I can hear that I havent heard in the SMiLE recordings nor are they present in the 2004 version.

thanks
-J

shameless plug ;)

Stephen,

Don't hate me if this was asked before, but was 'Our Prayer' re-recorded for 20/20? Or did they use any tracks from SMiLE? The reason I ask is because there are a few harmonies I can hear that I havent heard in the SMiLE recordings nor are they present in the 2004 version.

thanks
-J

Ok cool, so then its a complete new mix down as well?

how many tracks is Our Prayer, anyway?

The, so called, smile sessions were not called such until much later - an invention of the press.

Mr. Desper, Carl's lead vocal on Cabinessence....does that date from 1966 or from 1968 when Carl went back to the track for the 20/20 album?

quote author=Jeff Mason link=topic=5.msg14773#msg14773 date=1139367593]
Mr. Desper, I mean no disrespect, but I don't understand your comment on the Smile project.  According to multiple contemporary articles preserved in Look Listen Vibrate Smile! there were press releases discussing the project and calling it "Smile".  In addition, there were album covers printed that have the title "Smile" all over them.

Mr. Desper, I mean no disrespect, but I don't understand your comment on the Smile project.  According to multiple contemporary articles preserved in Look Listen Vibrate Smile! there were press releases discussing the project and calling it "Smile".  In addition, there were album covers printed that have the title "Smile" all over them.  I can see your point about the myth for sure, but isn't it a bit extreme to say that Brian was recording tracks with no concept of an album to be made called "Smile"?  That would be a major revision to the canon as we fans have had it to the point of rendering a whole book and movie documentary incorrect.

Again, no disrespect, but that is a heavy thing to say.

Brian did not meet Parks until Feb of 1967.

No, but there seems to be a change in style and spelling after the board changeover.
Check it out for yourselves, guys.
Do you think Desper would have got  Do It Again/All I Want To Do mixed up?
Or done the Sunflower CD thing?

First post here (12-25-05):


Last post by the REAL Desper (from the archive):
December 14, 2005.
One scan of the last posts by the real Desper and a comparison to the above post tells the whole story.
We've been hoodwinked. MASSIVELY.

Hmmm, this is weird.
Really weird.
Desper may have done the Sunflower thing on his site for real, but there's no way these posts since the changeover are real. No way. IMO.

The hooker story, FWIW, is almost exactly what he told me in the studio in question, March 1985. I've never published that much detail and there's bits there only he would know.

I wrote a complete story about the f--k sound at the ending of All I Want To Do. That writing was one of those lost from Susan's old website.

Perhaps the Digital Desper (http://smileysmile.net/desper.html) has taken over.

what synths did you guys have in hand when recording 20/20? for example, what made the white noise sound in the beginning of 'Never Learn Not to Love"?  its very 'spacey' and cool for lack of a better term.

I think it was the real Mr. Desper. You have to remember, he is an engineer and a true expert in this area, but he is not a historian.

The start of Never Learn Not To Love is a cymbal crash, slowed down, played in reverse, if I recall correctly.

Hmmm...you don't need to exactly be a historian to choke on your cornflakes reading some of that stuff. 

The start of Never Learn Not To Love is a cymbal crash, slowed down, played in reverse, if I recall correctly.

What does that mean?  ~swd

Depending upon how many cornflakes he was eating at the time, it may mean we have one less board member. 

thats sexy. the fact that it was slowed down is what tricked my ear to think it was a synth...when I reverse a crash I just keep it at the same speed which gives me a quick white noise, never thought about slowing it down...

but theres something to it...just gives it a haunting feel to the sound...theres nothing else layered into it?

I think cornflakes in this case refers to the breakfast cereal.  As in, reading something astonishing while eating and choking on the food you are eating because you are, well, astonished.

Also there was a normal speed crash or decay of a highly excited cymbal added on top of the slowed-down version to give more high harmonic identification to the sound as the song enters. ~swd

Oh, I see.  There are many stories about Dennis I will take to my grave that would cause you to upheave your cornflakes in astonishment. So his antics at Capitol were just the tip of the iceburg.   ~swd

I think thats it! Now, if I may ask what is 'Dolby A-type' is it the actual reel-to-reel machine or is it the type of tape you were using? and what does it mean that it was recorded unresolved? (sorry if this is a dumb question, never seen that terminology)

Charles is right - I did mean choking on one's cornflakes with astonishment but in connection with what you were saying about Smile rather than any reference to Dennis.   

OK.   Well, I hope we have all the SMiLE and Smile confusion resolved now.  ~swd

Well, I might be missing something here (as I have not been following the thread right through but glancing back after observing the unfolding controversy) but you said: "The earliest reference to a "smile" album name I can find is 1979 in a quote from Mike Love. "  But that Smile album sleeve is from, you say, 1967 (others say 1966).

The reference to Mike Love was to show how little Smile was talked about in the press.  It was a dead album by then.  Suggest you go back and read the entire thread if you want to understand how it unfolded.  I think the confusion is cleared up now -- I hope.  I have said nothing new, just in a different way. ~swd

Stephen,

So basically anything you recorded that was from the mid-high range you would run through the Dolby-A? As an insert? (Microphone -> Pre-Amp - Dolby-A -> Tape) or would you record everything and then send it to the Dolby-A machine and back? Is the encoding recorded on tape? Ive always seen the DOLBY brand on different equipment but I never really understood what it did (except provide 'hi-fi stereo' :x)

OK - I take your meaning there.  Thanks for clarifying.

Melody Maker  March 1972 - Carl talked in some detail about what was going to be on the Smile album that was set to be released that fall

COMMENT TO ALL --

I did not say there were NO press mentions of a Smile project, I said they were far and few between.  You can dig them up but the point is you must dig to find them.  The Smile name is not in every interview of those times.  I doubt you will find anything before '66.  ~swd

"So what I'm saying is that these sessions were not referred to as Smile sessions by those involved with them at that time.  The reference to Smile came later.    

The Carl thing in 1972 is on p,128 of Look ! Listen ! Vibrate ! Smile!

And with this I'm done on the subject.

Me too -- I hope we can move on.  I've visited your website bellagio 10452 (http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/) and found many interesting things. Some useful items cannot be found elsewhere.   ~swd

Stephen,
Also, I know its been a while, but how many instruments do you think were used for Bruce's 'The Nearest Faraway Place'? To me (not including the guitar playing) it sounds like it was done all with just one keyboard synth...

The whole Spring period is still a very gray area.

I thought you were joking with this question.  First, sampling forty years ago?  NOT!  Second, suggest you listen real hard.  Amid others you should hear a Grand Piano, Fender Rhodes, Bass Guitar, Tuned Timbale, Timbale return, Violin section, Viola section, Cellos, Harp, Vibs, and a Celista. ~swd

Read the book, man.

Steve, very interesting Snare drum.  Looks neat.  I am still in the market for a good one, (and a tape machine, a good compressor, a good monitoring system [which I may ask you about at some point], a boeing 747...you know, you always want more stuff.)  but I changed heads on my current one to the Remo "rennaisance" model, and it's made a pretty good difference, night and day really.  But I need a wood snare.  And a million dollars, and a Benz...

seriously, I hear all these instruments, but I swear it sounds like he did it all in one sitting on one of those neat all-in-one keyboards...obviously the technology back then isn't as good as it is now..but you catch my drift.

good stuff

No, the technology back then was just as good as now, except that now who wants to afford an orchesta for a pop album when the samples are in the software?  ~swd

I would...give me the real and the organic every single time!

I agree.. one time I recorded a track which I had intended to be this massive production; by the time I added two guitars, bass, ocarina, maracas, and backwards breathing wind effects, it sounded so cold and empty (not ideal for a love song).

No, the technology back then was just as good as now, except that now who wants to afford an orchesta for a pop album when the samples are in the software?  ~swd

Yeah, you know...some of my most favorite recordings (that I've done) are the ones that have no fake reverb.  I'm always recording in a dinky carpeted room, etc...so everything's dry and in your face...but hey...that's what I was given.  It's hard to resist the tech...but if and when I do, it's just so much more character in every bite!!

Steve the Despmeiser general,
Simulating natural stereo. How?
Say I've got a mono source - a lead guitar line. Normally I would put the dry guitar line panned over to one channel and put a reverbed version of it in the other. It's gives a kinda unusual effect, not natural at all really. You've mentioned processing mono sources into stereo before using comb filtering, echo and such like. Can you give me detailed, practical way to make a mono source into a "natural" sounding stereo THING?

Mr. Desper:

Quick question: Did you do the engineering on the song "San Miguel"?

I have it courtesy of the "Good Vibrations" box set, and it's a great song.

Yes. ~swd

[
The reason I ask is because the sound quality is so different from the Sunflower tracks that are included in the box set.  The Sunflower tracks sound so full, lush, and dynamic, just as they do on the Sunflower/Surf's Up 2-fer CD, but "San Miguel" sounds a little murky and limited, almost like it wasn't fully mastered, or perhaps REmastered for the CD format.

Hi Steve,
   Just wondering if you ever got to watch the "Day In the Life..." video that I posted in Reply #292 back on Pg. 20?
Brian

Hi Stephen,

Can you tell me what songs Mike played the Moog ribbon controller on onstage, how long he used this instrument, and where it might be right now?

Read back, this was answered before -- with pictures too. ~swd

I've read that it was used on California Girls, too.  Also, I was under the impression it could be used independent of the synthesizer setup

Mr. Desper, were you mixing at either of these shows?  One was Central Park 1971 for ABC, and one was London in 1972 for the BBC.  The latter had Ricky and Blondie and guest Elton John.

Charles, how in the world did you dig that up?!   :D   (You must have been one of the 40 people to get one, otherwise I don't see how you could have remembered that offer!)

It's a shame the offer wasn't for a full concert, that would be a super nice video to have.


Love and merci,   Dan Lega

Charles, how in the world did you dig that up?!   :D   (You must have been one of the 40 people to get one, otherwise I don't see how you could have remembered that offer!)

So any further chances of seeing any of that show are really up to Al Jardine. [/b]  ~swd   

I've got one...it definitely features "God Only Knows".  Can't remember "Rhonda" specifically, but that doesn't mean it isn't there...I'm sure it is, if it says so.  Curiously, I remember seeing somewhere that "Wouldn't It Be Nice" was included, but I really don't think it was.

Guess I'll have to fight my laziness and actually check it out (something I haven't done since I got it). 

Related note...anyone else see BBFF on "Regis & Kathy Lee" that fall of '98?  I believe that was their only appearance with The Captain (I do not see him at all on the Steve Desper/Shrine Bowl
video).   I think they did "I Can Hear Music", "Darlin'", and "Fun Fun Fun".   Good performances. 

C-Man

Is Daryl Dragon still married to Toni Tenille?

Just curious.

they're not in Washoe Valley anymore?

I cringed when I read Mike Love's complaint against Al Jardine -- part of it made reference to using women on a Beach Boys-related show.  As if Toni Tenille had never been with the band...

Stephen, I have NEVER seen any photos of the Beach Boys on tour with Toni.  You wouldn't happen to have any, would you?  And which tour was she on?  Did she sing any vocals?  Do anything in the studio?

The interviewer asked Daryl about his omni-present shades, which he removed to reveal a rather swollen eyeball, the result of s degenerative disease that I think he said he'd recently had surgery for.
C-Man

Anyhow, do you remember how much bass Daryl did contribute?

Steve, a few of us were discussing Daryl's bass contributions on Sunflower and Surf's Up.  He was trained as a srting bassist at one point in his life, High School or College, I don't remember.

Anyhow, do you remember how much bass Daryl did contribute?  I'm still trying to get a feel for who contributed what.

And on that subject, if you missed it, here is a cool pic thanks to Mark H:

(http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/1438/carldaryell7us.jpg)

aeijtzsche,
You think that Daryl's bass looks less like a Jazz and more like a Mustang?  Sorry to hijack.

Daryl, Bruce, Brian, Al and Carl all play bass guitar. They're all good at it.

As to who did what, you never know.

Consider that the BB bass lines are sometime a blend of bass guitar and keyboard.

I've always thought Dolphins are our intellectual superiors.

So long and thanks for all the fish!

haha... do you have any funny "food stories" about the band? Like, Brian ordering a ton of pizza and gorging on it, or something like that? We all know Brian loves steak and birthday cake...

Steve, there is a scene in the American Band video where Dennis is sitting in a plane (presumably flying into Europe for the 1969 tour).  He asks "Steve" to pass him a chocolate ball.  "Steve" throws it at his head.  This man is off camera unseen.  Any chance that's you...?

Stephen.

I have an important question.

Why...for the sake of humanity...did you let the Beach Boys put 'Student Demostration Time' on Surf's Up? I mean I know they have the final say in their tracklisting, but couldnt you have 'accidentally' burned the master reel?

Stephen - thank you for NOT burning the master reel!!  This is a GREAT rocker, the likes of which the BBs didn't show very often.  I'm VERY glad for this proof that they could rock out!

Sincerely,
Susan

Stephen - thank you for NOT burning the master reel!!  This is a GREAT rocker, the likes of which the BBs didn't show very often.  I'm VERY glad for this proof that they could rock out!

Stephen.

I have an important question.

Why...for the sake of humanity...did you let the Beach Boys put 'Student Demostration Time' on Surf's Up? I mean I know they have the final say in their tracklisting, but couldnt you have 'accidentally' burned the master reel?

Thanks for your consideration in this matter
your friend
-J$

Cool post, Stephen. My point has more to do with the music rather than the lyrics and message... Don't get me wrong, I think its fine and dandy that Mike wants to spread a little political love...I have nothing against it. I just cant stand that dreadful song (musically)...and so that you know, my original post was to take light hearted. I wasnt trying to be mean spirited or anything ;)

And yes, Ive listened to SDT a numerous amount of times, I just let it play now everytime I have Surf's Up on :)

take care

Stephen, I have a question -- could you review the 1974-76 thread and make any comments you feel able to make without violating relationships?  Something to the effect of "yes, there was a split between Carl/Dennis vs Mike/Al earlier than 1977" would suffice.  I know that you probably can't say much if anything, but if tension existed I would think you would have seen it.

I just cant stand that dreadful song (musically)

Stephen.

I have an important question.

Why...for the sake of humanity...did you let the Beach Boys put 'Student Demostration Time' on Surf's Up? I mean I know they have the final say in their tracklisting, but couldnt you have 'accidentally' burned the master reel?

Thanks for your consideration in this matter
your friend
-J$

You're a dick.

Do you have something against the classic blues chord progression?

I liked it the first time around, it is necessary to be used again and again and again and again and again?

Stephen's investment in the song is purely with sound engineering. Does the track sound great? Absolutely! Also, im not an Mike Love-Hater. I don't hate on anyone or anything, was Cell Block #9 a cool song? Sure, but does it have to be remade for a political driven song? Not in my opinion.

it's kind of jarring. Maybe it's supposed to be that way...

That song is awesome for the chance for Carl to stretch out and PLAY.  He never got enough opportunity to do that and most people, BB fans included, don't know how good a player he was.

My point has more to do with the music rather than the lyrics and message... Don't get me wrong, I think its fine and dandy that Mike wants to spread a little political love...I have nothing against it. I just cant stand that dreadful song (musically)...and so that you know, my original post was to take light hearted. I wasnt trying to be mean spirited or anything Wink

I am allowed to dislike -A- Beach Boy song, right?

The only thing that really bothers me is the VOLUME of the track. To my ears anyway, the song sounds louder than the rest of the tracks on the Sunflower/Surf's Up two-fer. After "Disney Girls" fades, it's kind of jarring. Maybe it's supposed to be that way...

Carl was the best kind of guitarist.  The kind that never lets on exactly how good they are.  I mean, it's a nice mystery.  I have no idea if Carl could shred, but I do know that he had something in reserve that I'm not privy to.  And I like that.

I agree with Stephen, some of us appreciate it from a certain life experience.

Stephen, I wondered if you remember if it was Mike who brought the song Cell Block #9 to the table or was it someone else's [Brian, Carl, Al, Dennis, Bruce] idea to use the song [Cell Block #9] and they then asked Mike to write relevant lyrics?

For all we know, it coulda been Jack Rieley's idea...

C-Man

I agree with Stephen, some of us appreciate it from a certain life experience.

Stephen, I wondered if you remember if it was Mike who brought the song Cell Block #9 to the table or was it someone else's [Brian, Carl, Al, Dennis, Bruce] idea to use the song [Cell Block #9] and they then asked Mike to write relevant lyrics?

. . . and perhaps the fact that I grew up in that era and I heard the song soon after it came out.

Love, sensing that
I might be on to something by rejecting the string-o-hits crap as out of
date, suddenly came up with Student Demonstration Time, which had Carl
and I blushing with embarassment and which thoroughly disgusted Dennis.

Johnston got Tears.